ah kk, thx
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ah kk, thx
Hi there,
missing here for a quite long time. I've just read all the waves of innovation this deck had recently... deathrite shamans seem pretty good! I'm not totally sold of not running an underground sea though, i feel that having the possibility to shrink a beefy tarmogoyf or to exile a snapcaster mage's target could be a great deal, and even slowly cleaning an ANT graveyard could have its purposes.
I could agree with the cut of the third eldrazi-brother Kozilek (with new rulings it's getting hard to remove an opponent's Karakas) but i'm a little bit doubtful about the greedy manabases you're showing. Maybe it's my variegated meta, but wasteland here is still a thing. Playing all the new big dudes seems hard to me without relying on additional form of land denying defense (pithing needle, i'm thinking of you) or additional speed (candelabra). Oracle of Mul Daya could help in the latter sense, but you still have to reach 4 mana to play it, and i find this quite complicated against tempo decks that can easily disrupt you in the first turns. I was thinking about using Trinket Mages again...
Also, how are your last records against Omnitell?
Interesting that you mention this, because all my testing the last few weeks with Deathrite have been specifically to address these aims. Reach without black, explosiveness, and resilience are all key aspects I've been aiming to solve. Last week's weekly event I tested Thragtusk for the first time and was highly pleased. I took an untuned list to Baltimore, but still could have top 8'd had I not misplayed terribly in the 3rd to last round, before I could draw in. This Tuesday's weekly event had me lose only to a mis-side against burn. This is the list I've come up with recently:Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [IA] Forest (3)
1 [MI] Island (4)
3 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
4 [M13] Thragtusk
2 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
4 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [US] Show and Tell
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [CS] Commandeer
The debatable slots are the 1 candelabra, and the 2 commandeer. The rest is virtually set in stone. THe commandeer slot could also be 2x Sea of Primordium. The candelabra slot could be many things, from GSZ, to expedition map; I even tested Momir Vig.
The 4x thragtusk is an interesting addition. Is he enough in the tempo/aggro matchups? Your curve has also been steadily rising; you're now running 2x4, 4x5, 4x6 as opposed to having more 1-2 cc spells. Has this been an issue where you get wasted+having your deathrite killed?
Also: a random sb card that might be fun versus any show and tell variants is take possession. Potentially better than commandeer since the 2x extra blue cards in hand might be a bit much. It pretty much hoses every show and tell target besides dream halls. You can also cast it, unlike pretty much every other deck in the format.
Aura effects and show and tell don't work as you think. Auras look to legal choices prior to Show and Tell's resolution. Considered it long ago. Commandeer is there as yet another free counter, allowing you to tap out for win cons, but also pitches only 1 blue card with dream halls in play. Make their deck work for you, and this deck can hardcast it.Quote:
Originally Posted by somethingdotdotdot
Thragtusk has proven very strong. Decks that provide pressure with wastes (Rug/aggro) lose to show and tell. Those that provide hand disruption and wastes (bug/esper/jund/deathblade) lose to Thragtusk and give you the time to cast him. The balance is odd, but works. Deathrite living or dying is incidental. Often he is a healing salve versus these decks.
About the curve rising steadily, I did joke around with my teammate and peers at my weekly venue that I'm slowly turning this deck into mid-range green aggro, which is only half-joking. The format has no real mid-range deck at the moment, so justifiably it could fit that role, albiet very loosely. I dubbed this version "Turbo Eldrazi: Nic Fixed" mostly to irritate our resident Nic Fit player, who loathes me.
Oh yea, facepalm. Forgot that take possession is an aura not an oblivion ring effect. Either way though, I might give this list a spin. I do like me some midrange.
They all loath you. That's why it's the most warped metagame I've ever seen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Would you respect one Tabernacle in the side as a tutorable thing against Elves?
Also, what you do you side out against combo in the new build? I'm guesing you switch from agro to control?
Guessing:
- 4 DRS
- 4 Thragtusk
- 2 Oracle
- ? Crop Rotation
- 1 Glacial
- 1 Bog
- 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
Tabernacle doesn't work vs elves... Archdruid, plus gaea's cradle, plus the awful potential of priest of titania, plus quirion ranger to double the effect.... Needless to say, taxing elves is a foolish proposition unless its something like sphere of resistance (which is ironically terrible in this format).What you need vs elves is either mass removal (spot removal doesn't cut it), or timewalks (fogs).
Eh, I wouldn't call it "the most warped meta." Who is this? Most people there play what they like, and have the best possible defense against this deck, experience. The 15-18 regulars in this store are well versed at how to beat me, what avenues to take, and what hands to keep against me, but they don't warp their decks to beat me.Quote:
Originally Posted by That nice guy
Also the siding plan is far from straightforward. Nearly every deck involves some form of siding, all dependent on the matchup itself. Sometimes staying aggro will beat them, sometimes you have to take out nearly all your creatures, sometimes you side out all the eldrazi's and ugin. The plans vary drastically.
Hi Guys, I've been playing 12-post for about 9 months now to pretty good success, and wanted to jump in on the conversation.
I've found Deathrite Shaman to be absolutely incredible in this deck. He just does so much work nullifying wastelands, gaining life, eating removal. All sorts of good stuff.
I'm currently running two Venser, Shaper Savant's in my mainboard instead of Oracles. I feel that the tempo that Venser grants is more valuable that Oracle's ramp, which seems more "win-more" to me. Venser has won me a couple games so far, I'm almost always happy to see him.
My big things right now is trying to seriously rethink the sideboard situation. My meta is very combo-heavy, which makes this deck a big liability (I've been playing high tide on and off because it's a much better matchup, but this deck is just more fun). In my experience, countermagic out of the board just doesn't seem to be cutting it. ANT decks make such quick work of my hand and I sit there helpless while they win. My two considerations right now are Thorn of Amethyst and Leyline of Sanctity. I feel like there's absolutely no reason for us to not be running Thorn in the sideboard. It shuts down combo like crazy, and once they start stacking it becomes almost impenetrable. Combo this with some early Chalice of the Void's on 0 and 1, and we're pretty much home free. To me this seems much more stable than running 4 mindbreak traps and 4 flusterstorms.
On the other hand, adding some leylines into the board would prevent storm from ripping our countermagic from our hand, but that seems iffy. We have no way to hardcast the leyline, and they just become dead-draws after turn 0.
I'd love to get people's thoughts on this. Also, any advice against combo in game 1 would be much appreciated. I consistently face storm at least once at every legacy tourney, so I really need a contingency plan.
Isn't Batterskull in this deck outright nastier than Thragtusk?
Thragtusk gives immediate lifegain and lives through removal. But a thragtusk WITH a batterskull on it. I could only dream.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Storm shouldn't be as terrible a matchup as you say. Crop on bog or show & tell -> titan both severly set them back game 1. Game two you side in 13-15 cards, and I'm amazed that isn't sufficient. The only deck I would consider this not satisfying against is TES with xantid/silence, where you would want to change vensers for glen elendras and definitely go to 4 fow over 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Funk
I've only lost one match to storm in the last two years, and it was entirely my own fault.
You can still bounce in response to removal. 4/4 vigilant lifelinker is better than 5 life EtB imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I think you're looking in a vacuum and far less holistically. Even in a vacuum thragtusk is more cost-effective than batterskull. Thragtusk's weakness against abrupt decay is significantly less than batterskulls. Weaknesses to pierce, and strengths against liliana/jace are also enormous. The only benefit batterskull has over Thragtusk is it enables late game Deathrites to become dangerous, and synergizes with Thragtusk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Hi, i have also problems vs ANT. How u mean that s&t into Titan = gg? can u give some playtips?
Just simply that ANT has issues with lifegain over 10, and a turn 2 show and tell on Titan can gain you 6-10, or bog them. Game 1 it is your best aggressive play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjuz
Game two you side in all your counter magic, going down to minimal win cons, and play the disruption game and keep counters atop library with SDT.
kk. game two was clear. but game one i missplayed hard. realy thx. i would appreciate, if u make a "how to play" plan with short strategy`s vs different decks ;)
I´m interested, how u play vs Staxx (dutch and artefact staxx) and esper blade
Esper is one of the easier matchups for the deck. All you need to be wary of is an early aggressive play of SFM -> Batterskull, wherein you can Repeal the Germ token for the low, low cost of U. Other than that, they can do little to disrupt you save for the occasional discard and/or counter. You should be able to ramp naturally with little trouble, as a lot of lists don't run Wastelands. Your late-game is difficult for them to stop, so as long as their hand is slow, you should have little trouble with the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mjuz
Deathblade variants are a different animal. Every creature they play is problematic, and they run more land-removal in the form of Vindicate. Know what opening hand to keep and it should still be a winnable matchup pre- and post-board.
As for Staxx, I am afraid I do not have experience with the deck, as it is very rare in our meta. I would be wary of Armageddon, as it will ruin your day. With the new build, you should have plenty of permanents to sacrifice to Smokestack before resorting to sacrificing your lands, though again Bounce effects would really help there, though I would playtest the matchup heavily if it's pretty common in your local meta.
Been testing a more combo-y build recently. Here's the initial list. Results have been strong, despite running explore, which I have always abhor'd.
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [IA] Forest (3)
1 [MI] Island (4)
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
4 [M13] Thragtusk
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [US] Show and Tell
3 [WWK] Explore
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [TSP] Wipe Away
Explore has been testing stronger than Deathrite Shaman in this list, even with the full 4 Show and Tells main?
I also find your lack of faith in Venser....distrubing.
Yeah, explore seems really cute and less resilient than DRS. I definitely ran some test with explores and explorations to do a sort of Turboland-ey kind of thing. It's pretty cool when it works, but I feel like it gets away from the heart of the deck. At its core, this is a temp-control deck with an explosive top-end.
This control concept is why I'm still maindecking Venser. Hitting stride with a Venser lock online creates a wealth of lines of play to power through the mid-game and top out with some spaghetti.
That said, I think there's probably an awesome 12-post build out there that functions as a true turboland deck. Cards like Summer Bloom, Explore, and Exploration with a Horn of Greed or two on the board can create some absolutely bonkers turns. Candelabra of Tawnos can allow us to start untapping our posts to generate even more mana real quick. I wonder how quickly we could cast emrakul in this shell.... I might have to do some brewing.
Another cutesy card that could be tested is Retraced Image. It functions as bonus land drop for a Post if it ends up in hand, but I think it'll end up being way too cutesy.Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Funk
I've tried screwing around with builds that incorporate TurboLand/TurboMulch with 12Post, and there's some big problems with space. I built around Mulch+Life from the Loam, Horn of Greed+Explore/Exploration, and hybrids. But you end up taking too much space to put this engine in the deck, which is slow by Legacy standards, in order to ramp into Eye --> Emrakul. Its the same reason that 43 Lands doesn't run a Post/Tron+Emrakul package: it takes up too much space to do too little.
Please elaborate? How is DRS more resilient than explore in terms of net advantage?Quote:
Originally Posted by J-Funk
I don't play "cute" cards unless I'm purposely messing around, which I am not. as a 2 drop, it is one of the most cost-effective cards in the game. Repeal is the only card that contests it.
I used the wrong word. You are correct, DRS isn't resilient, but I feel that he is more versatile. I like the toolkit of options that he gives us. Being able to interact with my opp's graveyard and chump block are pretty relevant in my opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
I still think there's definitely a place for Explore type cards somewhere in this deck, as you have clearly demonstrated by using Oracle to success. I just feel that I don't want to Sacrifice DRS's toolkit quite yet.
I'm excited to hear how Explore works out for you, however.
Tried out a pretty sweet list: UG post lands, DRS, GSZ (with arbor), Natural Order, 1 Oracle, 1-2 Titan [Read that twice], No Kozilek, 2 Candles, usual suspects and blue support. Couple Tool box creatures.
Will report better once I try it more, only has about 20 matches under the belt, but its been strong. The idea was move with the 'combo-push' by dropping the curve severely. But in doing so with cheaper sorcery tutors, you are also progressing the lists ability to play the control role - by being able to tutor lands AND creatures [Teeg mostly]. Does this while leaving room for blue support.
Fewer virtual mulligans, less dead draws, better off the top. Tutors can be defensive and offensive against combo so you arent going into game 2+3 with a super slow clock.
Anyone tried this approach? Thoughts?
PS on explore: It has forever been slots 76-79 for me, though I want it so badly to work (without abandoning blue).
What do you use Natural Order for? I fear we don't have many green creatures to sacrifice to cast itQuote:
Originally Posted by TimHarding
I recognize that having the possibility to ruin storm game-plan g1 by zenithing Gaddock can be huge, but i'm not a fan of playing too many cards that are negated by his effect too, just like NO, Repeal and Zenith itself. I really appreciate the idea of Teeg, i just wouldn't play him main deck together with NO an repeals
Yeah I agree. NO wasn't an issue to fire off with DRS and arbors with many ways to get each. Teeg did get moved to the board for the reasons you've mentioned. NO just ends up being a 4 mana Titan, but mainly it's the GSZ that make it different especially with candles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Davek
I'm not convinced of any of this yet, but the angle of attack felt right IMO
Of course Tim and I are both keen on innovating but from differing directions. Likely bringing a less experimental build to Philly. Full playsets of Core cards, thragtusks, repeals. Repeal just makes earning wins no longer necessary.
I am not sure what is the funniest part about that, CUTE little post, you know, that one I just quotedQuote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
That J.R. Got massively defensive, due to simple criticism. The kind where you bounce ideas off other people.
Or, the part where the most effective card in the game, at the cost of 2 is explore/repeal. Haha, explore, is no bob, Sylvan library, time walk....idk let's see half of the cards used in compatible decks at the cost of 2!
I also like that fact you just argued against DRS. A week ago it was the man! Now its getting cut, for a 2 drop. Wow.
Sorry, turn one "birds" was always a better play, then turn 2 rampant growth.
its cute how you get defensive. And yes I understand that rampant growth, and explore and completely different cards. But so is birds vrs drs
But! The funniest part is still how you said, that cute cards have a place, ONLY when you are messing around. Ahahah
oh, I know. But you are NOT MESSING AROUND
I got that.
BUT I AM. :-P
Try it some time. You night actually have fun
On a serious note. Candel should never be cut from the deck, its clearly the most insane tool the deck has. If it lands on field, its a show and tell, for casting costs, and land abilities. Abrupt decay is the only real card that can kill it, pre sb. It is also a lightning rod for counters, and spot removal
This deck requires a read on you opponent, you need to play around them, so you can control the game, until the point you resolve a big man spell. Btw you win when that happens. peace out
-dan hall
PS. If your deck is not pimp, it does not work as well. #DroppingKnowledge
time walk = legacy?
Moving on from whatever that nonsense was..
Exactly. So far the core with maindeck DRS Glen Elendra and Repeal has been most fitting, and worth bringing to tourneys for me. Though I really might be going forward with one GSZ, just to have another titan. It fits well in kozilek's spot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rock Lee
Repeal and GSZ is making candles look appetizing though...
Thank you for your input here Tim. Can you provide us with what you consider the latest "stable" (as in non-beta) version of the deck with DRS and Repeals? Jeremiah's list on the last page doesn't feature Repeal IIRC.
I know you asked Tim, but my current list does run Repeal. Here is what is my stable (non beta, I like that term) version:Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [LG] Karakas
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [TSP] Vesuva
2 [IA] Forest (3)
1 [MI] Island (4)
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [MR] Cloudpost
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
3 [M13] Thragtusk
3 [ZEN] Oracle of Mul Daya
1 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
3 [RTR] Deathrite Shaman
// Spells
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [5E] Brainstorm
4 [V09] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [GP] Repeal
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [AL] Force of Will
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [EVE] Glen Elendra Archmage
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
Is glacial chasm still necessary (particularly in the main)? I've found that the life gained from thragtusk and/or primeval titan fetching glimmerposts is *more* than enough Ifegain to live to the endgame, and that i feel like glacial chasm is a dead draw nearly every time i draw it. The only two decks i ever want "infinite life" versus "arbitrarily large life" is against are elves and goblins, and turn 1 DRS is a *lot* better against goblins, IMO. (By god, i love 1/2's against a goblin lackey =p).
That said, glacial chasm is basically the only way i can ever beat a competent combo elves player, so i think it still has a place in the board.
It is also one of the better solutions to Price of Progress, which is a card that can shit on the decks inevitability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tortuga
It's challenging to get most out of Chasm but as has been stated many times: it's a neccessary evil.
It isn't necessary to do that to get out of price, especially given the relative rarity of price, and the tendency that most decks that run price (read: burn) have to spend most of their cards 2 for 1ing themselves to deal with thragtusk or primeval titan. Also, glimmer post gains you more life than you lose to price, so if you get only glimmerposts, and play basics early, you can actually afford to be priced for 20 like twice. It especially hurts the burn decks that your lifegain machines are legitimate win conditions on their own as well. In addition, you can still board into chasm, i just feel that elves is the only deck that chasm actually shifts the match from "you're going to lose" to "they can't win", where gaining 10-20 life wouldnt do the same thing.
Finally, the boarding plan, specifically the flusterstorms, are also super good against price decks, and i don't think you need a better mainboard defense against it when a) you still have a decent chance game 1 (i would say 50% or greater), and your board demolishes them (assuming you can beat blood moon).
Isn't this the definition of a sideboard card?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I think you're describing best scenarios only, when you're still safe and sound at turn 4/5 or even later and you're already trumping your opponents with Titans/Tusks/Eldrazis/whatever. But what when you're facing tough decks like RUG and they start the game by deploying a delver, promptly followed by a tarmogoyf and a wasteland on your precious post? i've found myself in these situations a ton of times and i won many times hiding behind glacial chasm while stocking resources to play our expensive spells, trying to outnumber their counterspells. Of course, Glacial chasm may have lost a bit of its appeal lately (expecially if you have decided to drop your expedition maps) but i think it still deserves a slot main-deck. It saved me countless times.
I have fou d that my rug matchup got a *lot* better once deathrite shaman was added. It gives waste resistance, life points, a blocker, and makes it easier to cast show and tell. In addition, rug damn near folds to thragtusk. Also, repeal becomes one of the best cards in the deck against delver, because U: unsummon, draw a card is reaaaally good. Also, i usually find myself boarding *out* glacial chasm against rug (esp on the draw), simply because show and tell is how you beat them. They only have 4 hard counters, and most of the time you can generate the extra mana to pay for daze. You can also relatively easily bait a force with show and tell and hardcast thragtusk the next turn. Like, glacial chasm is faar from a necessary card to beat rug if you practice the matchup (it punishes misplays *hard*), and even with glacial chasm, i dont find any real difference in win pdrcentage against them, primarily because they have 4 wastes already, a serious clock, and you go a land down just playing chasm.