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If you are not playing Main Deck Bridge it can be tough, but here's what you need to do. You need to figure out they are on Show and Tell quickly. This likely means you have to hope they kept a slower hand that didn't have all the pieces. Second you need to sandbag your blasts to counter Show and Tell. Third you need to Revoker Sneak Attack. Then you go on the beat down path / Jaya path.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorker
If you play some number of Ensnaring Bridge MD they cant ever beat it g1( and u can just play it from SxT too). By that I mean u should play MD bridge,;))Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorker
You come to terms with the fact that you've been out-metagamed so that when they cast show and tell you concede the match on the spot, take it as a moral victory, and grab some food.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorker
Hey guys. I'd like some feedback on a list I'm brewing, which splashes white for a stoneforge/tutor package. Here:
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Arid Mesa
2 Plateau
1 Plains
6 Mountain
4 Imperial Painter
4 Painter's Servant
4 Simian Spirit Guide
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Goblin Welder
2 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Grindstone
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Blood Moon
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Enlightened Tutor
Sideboard is still in development. I feel like I'm missing a few crucial elements to the list, so please feel free to post any comments or concerns about the list. Thanks!
IMO:
I would say stoneforge doesn't really fit the game plan of the deck. Beat down should be a backup plan... Stoneforge takes up already tight spots in the deck.
If it's creatures you're worried about (why you would want jitte / bskull) then MB E.Breidge is the way to go.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Jack( Kapn) has been doing a great job championing the white splash these days and has had some solid success with it.* I figured it was timeI posted my updated list.* Its similar to Jack’s except I have continued to use the old tech from circa 96/97 where everyone built decks with 61 cards.*
4 Imperial Recruiters
4 Painters Servent
4 SSG
2 magnus of the Moon
2 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya Ballard
1 PeaceKeeper
4 Grindstone
1 lotus petal
3 SDT
4 blood moon
7 blast effects
3 enlightened tutor
2 Koth
8 sol lands
5 fetches( onslaught of course
2 plateau
4 mountains
Sideboard
4 Rest in Peace
1 helm of Obedience
4 firebolt
3 SoLS
3 Ensnaring Bridge
A few notes about the deck:
I love the current build.* Most recently Koth came back in as Jund went on the decline.* While Jund was big I ran an extra mountain and a Goblin Settler.* I still think the ability to have a tutorable LD spell that can carry equipment is huge and would love it someplace, and may switch out the Helm to have that moving forward.* But Koth has consistently been strong and he is even better in those match ups where Bridge shines, and having a strong plan b has been nice.* That and he dick slaps Jace and Lilliana.* The Peacekeeper could be an Ensnaring Bridge, and I’m not sure which one is correct.* Effectively I have five copies of it in game one match ups where it matters, which is one more than the four that I would have with bridge.* There are downsides to both, so for now I am sticking with keeping another shitty 1/1 in the deck.* The equipment has really been strong for me.* In a world where Abrupt Decay is everywhere it is nice to be able to say no and also give the deck some reach and strengthen the agro play.* The protection is relevant and STP is really underplayed right now making it much stronger.* Firebolt is amazing right now and so much stronger than Lightning Bolt in the current meta.* The card advantage is so nice, and it allows you , especially with equipment to literally gain card advantage on delver decks which is funny when you think a red deck could get card advantage against a blue based deck.* Otherwise its fairly stock and I would feel comfortable moving a Koth out to add a petal, making the deck more explosive at a small cost of end game.* That would be a meta call I think, and if combo is huge where you are, be that tendrils, omni, and elves, then I recommend the 5 fast mana spells as the turn is worth more than the card to be honest.
As I have said in the past I will really not comment much on mono red anymore.* It has been probably three years since I last played it so I am sort of out of touch with the finer points of the deck.* I still highly recommend anyone picking up painter to try the white splash as I think it has the best game in a random meta, and the downside of the white splash is much lower then the upside and utility of E tutor which is woefully underplayed in legacy atm.
Moving forward I think every painter list should have 4-6 graveyard hate someplace.* Anything less is selling yourself short.* While I will never say dredge is a good deck as it is easily beaten, it does do broken shit.* Good graveyard hate can also allow you to beat Eldrazi which are still around and I think it is vital to give you a chance to make that match up above 50/50.* With my current build I def think that is the case and you will be able to outplay your opponent, and that is the key.* Like dredge, Sneak and show is intrinsically more powerful, but with tight play I have found that this list allows me the decisions to be able to win.*
I was talking to Jack and Cannonist probably has a place in the deck, although I am not sure where.* My preference is for Peacekeeper, and otherwise I don’t think white really has any other cards that are worth splashing for.*
In terms of red, especially mono red lists I think an LD card should basically be in your 77-78 cards that depending on the day you play could make your list.* Artifact removal is important and I will always think Heretic is the best option there, although I understand other options. I’m not sure metamorph has a place in the deck anymore, and I think you will have diminishing returns on Revoker in the current meta, although a Welder heavy version may be able to really abuse them.* Although if a good player is sitting across from you, they should know not to let you untap with a welder unless you are already in a losing position.*
Otherwise I would say that there is less variability in what is viable now then before.* In a defined meta things like looting and Chandra seem bad.* As does not having a Bridge in the main.* I think nine shuffle effects are needed at least to allow you to use SDT to get incremental gains on the card quality, and I think the 12 my version runs is perfect.
I hope this sheds some light on the white splash and I am happy to answer any questions you guys have.
*
Seth
Imperial- I ran a stoneforge splash years ago, back when team italia was a deck( although saying that now seems that a huge joke) and it was good. That was before sneak and show decks though. What decks are you thinking it will help against. It is strongest against decks with jace and lightning bolt so if your meta is infested with those the utility of the stoneforge package and having a sword and jitte in the board could be a boon. Although I would recommend using it out of the board and swapping it out for moon effects when on the draw or against decks that moon just isn't going to get there. Unfortunetly you don't have a deck that can really abuse it like stoneblade use to be able to. And batterskull is less good now in a world of deathrites and knights and that new blue guy I've been hearing so much about. Jitte and the swords are still awesome though, but at that rate you probably should just run more of the equipments especially with the legend rule. I think koth would probably be a better card at doing what you want anyway and just augment it with equipment out of the board. This way you can go back up to at least 6 blast effects which I think is the baseline unless nobody plays brainstorm where you live. Hope this helps. But if you do play stoneforge please run peacekeeper. Trust me
Seth
Thanks for the reply, Seth. Right now, my meta mostly consists of a few Delver variants, Stoneforge, and Miracles. Quite a few other decks pop up, but I'm not too worried about that. As you stated, I think the Stoneforge package will do well against the main opponents in my current meta. Now that you mention it, Peacekeeper seems like a fine choice to go along with the white splash. Heck, a team of Elves players sometimes show up, so I can definitely see its merits.Quote:
Originally Posted by sroncor1
I updated my old list as follows:
-1 magus of the moon
-4 blood moon
-3 magma jet
-1 lotus petal
-1 goblin welder
-1 simian spirit guide
-9 mountain
+4 stoneforge mystic
+1 batterskull
+1 umezawa's jitte
+3 enlightened tutor
+2 phyrexian revoker
+4 plateau
+5 fetchlands
Stoneforge has instantly been amazing. Jitte is the go-to equipment since it's easy to cast/equip, it provides a clock, and it also removes their threats. The upped revoker count is also great, although I often found myself wanting to name jitte to shut down my opponent's. I'm considering different equipments that I could use to avoid so much overlap with my opponents. Enlightened Tutor has been pretty nice since you can get grindstone, painter, or just a jitte, but if you have a hand with multiples then it's really hard to work through the loss of card advantage. The tutor also provides you with a lot of nice options in sideboarding.
I think that I'd like to try it with 1x magus of the moon and/or 1x blood moon as a tutorable silver bullet. I'll also be adding 4x Thalia to the 75, and probably at least 1x in the maindeck for tutoring. I liked the previous post about silver bullets, but I feel like blood moon and Thalia earned their spots. Faerie Macabre, on the other hand, is probably coming out.
I know that I used to advocate for Viashino Heretic, but I think that Manic Vandal might be better now because it is much better at dealing with an active jitte. The heretic is better in every other situation though and especially so against batterskull. If you have room, I would definitely run one of each.
I actually think if Jitte is your go to equipment the correct break down should be:
3 Jitte
1 Stoneforge
1 Batterskull
1 Goblin Welder
This way you are more efficient with the equipment you want.* Batterskull has lost most of its luster these days but it is still good so it is worth running in the right settings.* But I agree Jitte or a Sword should be the go to target most of the time.* In that setting why waste time with a shitty squire.* This way you have more opportunity to get the card you want, less dead draws( yes extra jittes are less good, but lets be honest if you have one on your side of the board you are probably winning), more efficient mana usage, and another way to recur them.* You still have Recruiter for Stoneforge for equipment play also by running one Stoneforge.* Although I do caution that I do think the package is stronger than the Moon package in the maindeck.
*
Imperial- even in that meta try Koth.* True name nemesis has really changed the effectiveness of batterskull, and that with Jace does make batterskull less good.* Batterskull, when paired with card advantage removal like Firebolt will def give you a leg up on Delver lists though so I get that.* Against Miracles and Jace decks Koth is probably better, as they really cant beat the card.* But to be honest you could run both, and if you use your E tutors, you could create room by cutting a few Bridges in the 75.*
Seth
@Seth: first off , really impressive list! I play mono R,but I can see the merits of a splash in certain metas. There's one thing that I think could be improved. I would play an ensnaring bridge over the Peacekeeper md as u mentioned.The decks where E. Bridge is really good against(uwr delver,rug delver,stoneblade variants,..) all play plenty of removal for the peacekeeper. And against elves,sneaky show,..peacekeeper/bridge are equally good I think. U can't recruiter it but then you can tutor it so it's only one less out. That being said by doing so u free up a slot in the sb, which I think is the perfect fit for a one off Ethersworn Canonist.Greetz
Yeah Bridge would be better in those match ups, and that is why I go back and forth. Peacekeeper is better against Elves as you have a better chance of having it in hand on turn two and a better chance of it being active turn two. However Bridge would cost less total mana to find it and cast it. Against Delver lists I would be ok with them killing her as that is one less removal spell for Painter and Welder and Koth which are all much stronger cards in that match up. But if I was to play the Bridge I think I would just move the Peacekeeper to board. Does that make sense? That is my thought process behind the choice although I am not sure it is the correct one.
Cannonist is the number two card I am trying to squeeze into the deck right now. Number one is Goblin Settler an I would also say that I am looking to possibly add another Lotus Petal. That isn't really for a white source so much as for another accelerant in general to the deck, and I hate Chome Mox anymore.
Seth
This deck is very new for me and I am truly only trying to get better with it so I have a few questions. Is there any reason to Play T1 Grindstone? Or do you ideally want to drop it when you have Painter out and 3 spare mana? Also not being familiar with playing Top what are some tricks to help me use it more efficiently, it always feels like I waste mana on it at the wrong time. I will play T1 top, T2 top in Upkeep and lose 1 mana when it might just be better to draw play a land and Top at the end of my opponents turn. One of the biggest problems I have with this deck is sideboarding Blasts/Jaya/Welder/Moon? What are some of the cards that you never side out no matter what deck your playing against. Is Manic Vandal that good? He is tutorable and a body but at 3 mana seems kind of expensive compared to other artifact hate. What kind of hands are just unkeepable?
Is there anyone that plays Painter on Cockatrice that I could maybe test to learn or watch you play sometime? Any help is appreciated thank you
More often than not, you will have a better turn 1 play, and Grindstone isn't relevant. Plus, it can pay off to disguise your deck as a stompy variant. As for side boarding, I almost never board out Recruiter, as it is in my opinion, the main theme/centerpiece of the deck. Just my 2 cents. I myself test on cockatrice quite often, but I've been having some technical issues lately, which is disappointing...Quote:
Originally Posted by jake556
There's no surefire way to say what you need to board in and out. One, we don't know your list. Two, we don't know your grasp on the decks you're likely to face.Quote:
Originally Posted by jake556
One) Post your list! Most posters here are proponents of either mono R or the white splash. UR painter has its own thread.
Two) This is more important. You need to know tier one and two decks inside and out, not just main decks but sideboards as well. You will lose games because they side in a card you didn't consider and your answer is sitting in your deck box next to you. This is the hardest part. Study Study Study!
Then, when you have a firm grasp of the decks you'll likely face, you can turn to your own list and go over each matchup and say ''I have/don't have X when they have Y'' and ''Given Y, X in my maindeck/sideboard does or doesn't do what it should, therefore should come out/in''.
Only with an extensive background knowledge can you begin to correctly tweak cards to your metagame, and more importantly, make the correct sideboard decisions that'll shore up unfavorable matchups. The deck has answers to everything, from Emrakuls to Elves to Tendrils of Agony and everything in between. Play it to its strengths and your answers will more than likely trump their threats, because no deck metagames for iPainter. That's one of its biggest advantages. That and Blood Moon.
Love that card...
There are a ton of questions here and possible answers regarding theory and sideboarding guides. There's really too much for one post so I'll stick with turn 1 on the play against an unknown opponent. I will assume you don't have access to two mana on turn 1, thus ruling out moons, painters, recruiter, or top plus spin. Lastly, I will assume mono red, so that fetch into eot enlightened tutor isn't an option.
For an average hand that isn't light on mana, here is my order of importance: welder>grindstone>top
Why? Welder is a tempo play. Many decks will need to use removal on it for their turn one in fear of welder becoming active over deploying a sensei too, delver etc. If they play a discard spell, your artifacts are relatively safe because welder will be active turn 2.
Welder and grindstone are both above top because of the possibility of a turn 1 chalice. Also, utilizing your mana and dropping the stone turn 1 allows the play of turn 2 painter off sol with a blast backup. Getting a grindstone our early also opens up the possibility that they decay it, which is good. Lastly, having a stone already in play for when you drop painter with mana available allows you to hold their removal hostage and 2-1 them
I'll usually only play top over the other two if I kept a good one land hand and need to find a second on upkeep
Edit: I think the only cards I always keep in no matter what is recruiter and ssg. I almost never go below 5 blasts and the only time you cut a painter or two is against R or UR painter. Everything else gets cut or shaved depending on matchup and whether you're on play or draw
Hello all,
I just discovered this Primer. And after browsing through the thread I see a lot of good info for this deck.
Here is my tournament report from GP: DC that i posted on my stores FB Page. I will post the list after
Rd1. Opponent: Donald.
Deck: Burn
Result: W 2-1
Game one I won via Grindstone Painter Servant Combo. On turn 4 because my opponent didn't use his suspended Rift Bolt to Kill my Painter Servant. Game two I lost to Sulfuric Vortex and not being able to find a way to kill him. Game three both are at 1 Life. I had been attacking with Phyrexian Revokers and Painter servant. I finally Use Sensi's Divining Top to hit a Lightning Bolt and kill him on his Upkeep.
Rd2. Opponent: Spencer
Table 277
Deck: Burn
Result: W 2-1
Game one ends the same way the first round does. Combo out. Game 2 I Mull to 6 then die quickly to bolt/chain/Fireblast. Game three I have A goblin welder in play with Grindstone after activation of grindstone on the stack before it resolves I switch control of it and a Painter servant in graveyard and name blue and he gets milled out. He debated calling a judge about the ruling on how that worked but chose not to.
Rd3. Opponent: Joe Lossett (Twitch Oarsman87)
Table 187
Deck: Miracles/Countertop
Result: W 2-0
Game one I win after fighting through 2 counterbalances after I destroyed his top. Used Welder to switch positions with Grindstone and Painter Servant again. Game two we both mull to 6 and I win after he isnt able to find a counter with Counterbalance. He uses Jace to target my Painter Servant to return it to hand I redirect to spellskite and then combo out.
Rd4. Opponent: Micheal
Table 119
Deck: Death and Taxes
Result: W 2-0
Game one I win turn 2 with Combo after Countering his Swords to Plowshares with a Pyroblast. Game 2 I mulled to 6 and lock him down with Ensnaring Bridge and find my combo to Win. He also attempted to equip a Sword of Fire and Ice with me having a Painter servant out naming blue and it just falls off because it gives protection from blue.
Rd5. Opponent: Yoel
Table 18
Deck: Death and Taxes
Result: W 2-1
Game one I win turn 2 with Combo after Countering his Swords to Plowshares with a Red Elemental Blast. Game two he lands Jitte and Well we all know how that ends if it gets out of hand. Game three I was a really tough game. He revokes my grindstone and I am unable to use it. I stick an Ensnaring Bridge and he cant attack as I keep 0 cards in my hand. I then go on the Beat stick plan and kill him with painter servants turning sideways.
Rd6. Opponent: David
Table 35 (was really Confused by this but I got paired down to a person who had a draw)
Deck: Shardless Bug
Result: L 0-2
Game 1 Goyf Goes off as I was unable to find a Blood Moon or a relic of progenitus early. Game 2 I die to a JTMS Ultimate as I had to mull to 4. Rough luck But my spirits were still high.
Rd7. Opponent: Ian
Table 81
Deck: RUG Delver
Result: W 2-1
Game 1 I almost lose to a flipped Delver but then top deck the Servant and activate my Grindstone. Counter the Stifle and he hand no way to counter my Pyroblast. Game 2 I lose to GOYF doing GOYF things we have all been there if you ever played against it. Game 3 I win to my opponent's misplay as he goes to ancient grudge my Ensnaring Bridge I redirect to Spellskite and he tapped his mana wrong not allowing himself to be able to flash it back and I then Exile it. He durdles a few turns as I Mill him two cards a turn until I hit his 2nd K-Grip and have two bridges out.
Rd8. Opponent: Bryan
Table 78
Deck: Death and Taxes
Result: L 1-2
Game one I win Via Stone as my opponent didnt know how my deck worked and was really confused. Game 2 Mull to 6 I lose to a Rishiadian Port Lock as when I finally hit the Grindstone I didn’t have enough mana to be able to activate without killing myself with Ancient Tomb. Game three well Jitte my arch-nemesis reappears and I wasn’t able to deal with it. Oh well So now I have to win round 9 in order to make it to day 2. This Kid also called my deck bad and played his D&T deck horribly. He had to ask a judge after the Match how my deck actually worked.
Rd 9. Opponent: Andrew
Table 113
Deck: Izzet Delver
Result: W 2-1
Well I win this and Im in No Pressure right? Haha OK so Game 1 he curves out quite quickly sticking a delver with a sword of Fire and Ice and kills me with it. Game 2 my opponent mulls to 6 I stick a turn 1 Blood Moon. He doesnt see a Basic until he is at 5 life. I attack each turn with whatever creatures I can and then double bolt him to finish him off. Game three well this is it win this and then I can get some sleep and get ready for Sunday. My opponent lands a delver but was unable to flip him for a long time. He pings me for 1 every turn until I hit an Ensnaring bridge. Which stops him from attacking. I then proceed to Mill him for 2 cards a turn due to me not finding a Painter servant. When I do I miss the trigger for naming a color and he makes me mill him the hard way. Oh well, I learned after the fact that if I would have called a judge he would have let me name a color. Live and Learn.
WOOT MADE IT TO DAY 2. Sleep like crap all night Wake up at 7 to get ready.
Rd10. Opponent: Gabriel
Table 46
Deck: Punishing Jund
Result: L 0-2
Game 1 I lose to Goyf and Punishing Fire. Cant stop it as when I finally hit the Blood Moon I was at 1 life. Game 2 Much of the Same except I mulled to 5 and then Liliana, Hymn and Thoughtseize Rip my hand apart.
Rd11. Opponent: Stu
Table 81
Deck: Unkown
Result: W 2-0
Opponent never Shows gets dropped from tournament or so I thought and he ends up ahead of me in the rankings. I will be contacting the DCI about this.
Rd12. Opponent:Jason
Table 67
Deck: Elves
Result: L 1-2
Game 1 Lose to Hoof on turn 3 We both mulled to 6. Game 2 my opponent scoops to Grindstone, Relic of Progenitus, and Painter Servant on Board. Game three I play turn one phyrexian revoker naming Heritage Druid. I then proceed to lose to Deathrite Shaman. (Enter Tilt Mode) If I would have named Deathrite I win. He ended up siding out all 4 Druids as well as 10 other cards. I mis-sideboard by taking out Blood Moon. Oh well! So now I have to win out to be in the Money.
Rd13. Opponent: Mike
Table 96
Deck: Omni-Tell
Result: L 0-2 Drop
Well He combos both games on turn 3 and plays Ants and well that was that.
Overall I learned a lot about my deck I never once sided in Thorn of Amethyst I feel maybe Trinisphere will be better in the future. But I also never played against Storm So I don't know. I had a card called Sirroco in my deck it was really good against burn. Not so good against the decks I wanted it against. Looking for a replacement. I Got to play Koth of the Hammer only once. However he got countered. I would Like to thank Paul for convincing me to play Mainboard Relic of Progetnitus. Lots of fun Playing this deck so that was good. I also learned a lot of people have no idea in how to play against my deck which was helpful. I was also the only Painted Stone Deck that Made it to day 2
Here is the Deck list I used at GPDC
Lands:
8 Sol lands
9 Mountains
3 Tarns
Creatures
2 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Imperial Recruiters (all i own)
1 Spellskite
4 Painters Servant
4 Simian Spirit guide
1 Goblin Welder
1 Jaya
2 Magus of the Moon
Everything else in MB
3: Tops
4: Bloodmoons
2 Relic of Progenitus
6 Blast effects
4 Grindstone
3 Lightning bolt
SIDEBOARD
4 Ensnaring bridge
2 Sirocco
1 Goblin Welder
2 KOTH
4 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Ratchet Bombs
May I ask how you did?Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenklath
I finished 201 overall.Quote:
Originally Posted by Imperial
Sirocco
Interesting choice.
Burn is definitely not a good matchup, that is unless they play bad like your opponents or you combo off early enough.
I'm curious, what card are you going to cut for the fourth Recruiter when you get it?
How many people are playing MB grave hate?
Pretty hard to beat SnT without it... even with bridges. Can't be attacking into a 7/7 lifelinker, nor wait to mill them with Emrakul.
I think I need a singleton gravehate card just to cover the bases. Was thinking 1 Relic MB/3 crypt side.
Yes I am playing the Mono Red version with a pretty standard list I will upload when I get a chance. @Kap n cook you said you never go below 5 blasts that is interesting thanks for that. And thank for the T1 Welder explanation which was another card I had questions about when to play it with artifacts in GY or not.
If you're only running 1 welder like a standard list I'd certainly be careful about tossing him to the wolves turn 1 since after that you have no recursion left in the deck. I run 3 (definitely not normal so take with a grain of salt) so seeing the first die makes me pretty happy.Quote:
Originally Posted by jake556
I don't think it's that good of an idea. There's no way to tutor for it. If they're making you play it out after you Drop a bridge, assemble tons of blasts in hand with enough mana to pay for soft counters and resolve your jaya or koth. Good game sneak and showQuote:
Originally Posted by Ish
Got it. Yeah in the UR version it was easily tutored and/or welder'd for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Your strategy is what I figured game one might be for iPainter. Just make sure to resolve a jaya and ride her to victory.
SnT is obviously a big meta deck again, so just don't want to give away game 1.
I'm gonna try a whopping 3 MB bridge right now. Other than storm it seems like a free win game one against a lot if the field.
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In the list I'm currently working on, I have three MD Bridges and it has been boss thusfar. A fourth might be too greedy, but I'm not sold on the main deck yet, still three cards that I want to solidify. I'll share it soon.
And I also agree that one MD GY hate is not good. As mentioned, an SnT player might just scoop G1 to a resolved Bridge, as they have no other way to victory and Painter has inevitability. Otherwise, you have to play Draw Go until you can win like Kap'n said. There's just no way for SnT to win against a Bridge if it resolves game one.
Yep! You guys convinced me that MB GY hate is not the way to go. Which I really didn't want to make room for either. Thanks! This has to be one of the best and most interactive threads on the forum!Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
However if SnT resolves a griselbrand they can't lose to beat down. Jaya and/or Koth are our only win cons. Otherwise draw-go will be won by an emrakul discard. We just have to make sure you have a few blast to jam one through.
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I have to say beating Burn twice in a row is quite a feat.Quote:
Originally Posted by ravenklath
Congratulations on the good showing at GPDC.
Also it's probably right to bring in Thorn of Amethyst against Omni-Tell. I'v not played that match-up ever... but that would be my approach.
Thorn and Bridge hamper their game plan. At least a Thorn doesn't make Omniscience and Dream Halls a freeroll factory. I'd cut Grindstone and Blood Moon in that order.
Yeah that is true. But my logic on why you would want thorn is because Omni-tell is a three card combo so slowing down their cantrips seems benificial. Thorn seems to hit every part of their gameplan actually.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax
You logic is sound. But I'd save any Blasts for the big spells themselves, or to protect a Thorn or two. I wouldn't waste them on cantrips or maybe even a Cunning Wish.
Okay gents, here's a short primer for Soviet Control. It's not a totally different build on iPainter, it's more focused on being pre sideboarded, really. It started from taking a standard main deck and throwing it in the air and what ever cards landed face up, they made the cut. The others were the ''wiggle room''. After that turned out to be a bad way at deck approach, I decided to look at iPainter's bad matchups and go from there. It's not that iPainter has many bad matchups, it's just that the ones that aren't fun are more common in any given tournament setting. To name a few: Emrakul Decks, Elves (especially Mono G), Burn, fast aggro like Goblins, Zoo (that no one plays anymore) and I'll even put UWr Delver here too (the archetype with lots of spot removal or disruption and cheap, efficient critters) Game ones were, in my experience, pretty much losses. I would side into a Mono Red Control deck and forego the Grindstone kill for either dork beatdowns or Painter/Jaya shenanigens.
Cards that made it into the main deck following this philosophy; Ensnaring Bridge, sweepers, Koth of the Hammer. These three create a built in secondary or terciary combo that will take over in the face of superior strategies. They work independantly from each other, and if combined in some fashion, plug any holes that other decks would normally exploit. On to the main deck.
8 Mountain
4 Red Fetchlands
8 Sol lands
-Playing 20 lands because this is a control deck and it needs stability in its mana
The basics-
4 Recruiter
4 Painter
4 SSG
4 Grindstone
4 Blood Moon
6 Blasts (2 REB/4 Pyro)
3 Top
The Control Shell-
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Sudden Demise
2 Koth of the Hammer
Recruiter Targets:
1 Jaya Ballard
2 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
A.) Control Decks:
(Applies to: Miracles, Stoneblade, Landstill, Shardless BUG/BUG Control, etc.)
All of these decks, except Miracles, leans heavily on Basic lands, so Blood Moon is good. They all have reasonable stacks of removal but by large they're looking to go to the red zone to end the game. Otherwise, they'll try to Jace you, for which you have mad blasts. Bridge becomes better here because it allows you to play the draw go game to either assemble a hand to combo off with protection or you simply start nugging them with Jaya under a bridge. I feel good in these matchups. Stoneblade, however, can be problematic. They have hand disruption and counters, and Wasteland. Koth and Bridge are also boss in any situation, that could also be another out.
B.) Tempo Decks:
(Applies to: Team America, RUG Tempo/Canadian Threshold, UWr Delver, Merfolk, etc.)
Again, Blood Moon is great here. They are assuredly attacking for the win so Bridge is also nuts. UWr Delver is a tough matchup though. They have lots of counters, lots of spot removal, but are mostly dead to a resolved Bridge or Blood Moon. They can also operate on Blood Moon mana because they have Grim Lavamancers often enough. Watch out for Meddling Mage out of the board.
C.) Aggressive Creature Decks:
(Applies to: Zoo, Goblins, Burn, etc.)
Tough matchups. Mulligan to a Bridge or fast combo but be prepared for a removal in response to the Stone ability. Sweepers are nice, and Blood Moon isn't so strong here.
D.) Midrange Creature Decks:
(Applies to: Maverick, Junk, B/x Discard, Death & Taxes, Jund, Nicfit, etc.)
While they utilize more basics than most, Moons are good because their non basics are utility lands vital to their own strategies. They're also attacking for the win, so Bridges shine. A lot easier than the aggressive creature decks because they're slower and you have inevitability.
E.) Small Creature Combo Decks:
(Applies to: Elves, Painter Servant, Dredge, etc.)
Tough, but winnable. Elves isn't the match for a Grindstone kill, as somewhere in the 75 they likely have Progenitus or Emrakul. I can't speak for the mirror but you play the deck too, so just try to out draw them and stay ahead.
F.) Big Creature/Show and Tell Combo Decks:
(Applies to: OmniShow, Sneak & Show, Reanimator, etc.)
Tough. Here's why you preboard bridges. Here's why your alternate wincons are main deck.
G.) Combo Decks:
(Applies to: ANT, TES, High Tide, etc.)
Slap a Thorn down first thing and know your matchup. Get a painter down too to counterblast their important spells and then mill them.
H.) Prison Decks:
(Applies to: MUD/Stax/Chalice Aggro/Lands, etc.)
Just kill them fast. Chalices will be annoying If you play against Lands, just rejoice and windmill slam a Blood Moon. They do play basics, but you should have ample time to go off from there.
The Sideboard
4 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Thorn of Amethyst
3 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Manic Vandal
1 REB
1 Sudden Demise
1 Jaya
1 Ensnaring Bridge
Sideboarding Guide
A)Using your best judgement, the first thing I would side out are Moons for the decks running ample basic lands. In come your Revokers, and a Vandal for their artifacts. I'd shave a Magus, too, for an extra Jaya. They will likely burn the first one out, so a back up has always been good to me.
B)Moons are hot, so is the main deck. Sudden Demise will kill Nimble Mongoose should they get one down before you can plop a Moon on the table. Revokers are also good, but there's not much from the main deck I'd want to shave. You can drop your Koths for extra Blast/Demise/Bridge/Revokers. the Maindeck is geared to cover these bases so there's not much to it really.
C) Out go koth, in go the extra Bridge and Demise. You can sweep a whole board with a Painter out. Mulligan to a Bridge, or a good control hand, and keep casting spells they need to deal with to eat up their resources. Against Burn, side out all four Moons, Magus can still block stuff, for a Bridge, Demise, and two Revokers (for Lavaman, Hellspark Elemental, stuff)
D) Maindeck is good here. Use your best judgement to what you need to supplement your MD with from the sideboard. Shave cards for what you bring in, I would't side out a whole set of cards.
E) Elves: In 1 Bridge 1 Demise 4 Cage Out 2 Koth 4 Moon. Welders keep your stuff in play when they go for a Viridian Shaman or whatever. Cages are awesome here, as they stop GSZ, Fetch for Dryad, and Natural Order. Cast multiple copies of your artifacts because it'll suck to have them destroy your one bridge and then Craterhoof for the win.
Mirror: Side out Moons for Revokers and a Vandal.
Dredge: Moons for Cages. Mull to get one.
F) Maindeck is also suited for the matchups. Supplement MD with sideboard cards by shaving MD cards to your best judgement.
G) Moons out for Thorns and a Revoker or two. Revoker LED or Chrome Mox or Lotus Petal. Blast their cantrips or hold on to them if you have a Painter out, for their tutors.
H) Race. Revokers are good here, and Manic Vandal is too. Swap the moons for them.
I want to add to this post, so maybe we can front page it?
Discuss!
I joined a tournament yesterday, 7 rounds for top 16, the result is a little disappointing. I got 17th with 4-2-1.
I prepared a lot for elves, dnt and other random aggro decks like goblins, but I did not meet any one of them. My meta is heavily blue, but unfortunately I only met one blue based aggro-control deck in the last round, which was too late for me.
here is a brief report：
2-0 vs Jund
Nothing to say, ground him out game 1. resolved blood moon game 2.
1-2 vs burn
He is the only person running burn yesterday. I lost game two and three with mutiple tombs in hand
1-1 vs reanimator
Game one he comboed out very quickly. game two I ground him out with mutiple bridges, revokers and relic
2-1 vs dredge
He is a rookie, so I was really fortunate
0-2 vs jund
Mana screwed in game one. Resolved an early blood moon, while he landed basics...
2-1 vs Sneakshow
he is my team mate, I mulled to five in game one and beat him with 2 weenie. Then I got crushed in game two. Game three I revoked his sneak attack, attacked for the win. I did not draw a single bridge vs him.
2-1 vs esper blade
I resolved blood moon in three games while he drew 8 basic within these 3 games. I was dead if he played correctly in game 3
the largest mistake I made yesterday was that I should take an aggressive mulligan in game 3 vs Reanimator when time was run out.
Nearly every single game was really really tough. If my meta become more hostile to IP, I may consider switching to other decks for a while.
Watched the tournament yersterday. AFAIK, this is the biggest legacy event in Beijing(50+ players).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
You played well, but had very bad luck. Saw you keep meeting red decks again and again, while the other tables were crowed with blue decks like...Blade, Miracles, BUG and "North Korea".
How do you think about your sideboard decision?
@jandax per the "primer"
First: overall nice job. Would be nice to update the front page based on the current meta.
Per the deck name: I still think its imperial painter. Getting to cute with names just confuses people. Imperial painter at its heart is a lockdown stompy deck with a combo win. Especially if we want to update the first page.
Typos: the artifact land is Great Furnace, and those tempo decks don't have a lot of basics :). Prob a few others I'm missing.
Card choices:
-did you miss the MB moons?
-I don't like MB sweepers. I just rely on fast combo and spot removal game 1. Fast combining aggro is still the bast option game 2 as well. Why muddy the deck with sweepers to stall the game over just winning. This is also why I advocate some type of bolt (I prefer magma jet) to kill critters and smooth draws.
-SIdeboard:
-elves is far from unwinnable. I actually have a positive record against both mono green and Gb. They almost can't beat a bridge, stick more than one and/or a welder; GG. Therefore I hate the 4 grafdigger's cages. Get some crypts in that SB. I will not fold the combo to Emrakul decks... And crypt still crushes GY decks.
-artifact removal; there's nothing to deal with chalice here. I have all too many times played against chalice. You have to have more than a single out to it. Manic vandal, shattering spree, ratchet bomb; so many good answers which also have dual purpose. Shattering spree also answers an equipped nemesis which is a real clock! We can race a 3/1 but a 7/5 or jitte'd progenifish is pretty quick to end the game.
Hers what I currently have sleeved up for my input
Deck: legacy - Imperial Painter.dec
Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard
Creatures:17
1 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
4 Simian Spirit Guide
Spells:23
4 Grindstone
3 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Magma Jet
4 Blood Moon
3 Ensnaring Bridge
Lands:20
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
4 City of Traitors
1 Mountain
Sideboard:15
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Shattering Spree
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ratchet Bomb
4 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Koth of the Hammer
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Oh that's a gross typo, thought I had those in there, gonna edit now
Now on to answer your questions:
I do have a manic vandal in the side for Chalice and other stuff. I am also relying on Bridge to cover more ground and prevent equipment from getting into the red zone in the first place, thus negating its advantage and freeing sideboard space up. Plus there is always Painter plus Jaya to get rid of a Chalice in a pinch.
I called it Soviet Control because that's awesome, and fitting. A rose by any other name...
And regarding Elves, I dunno who you're playing against or what builds they have, but I have never had any luck in the matchup. Even mouth breathing tards who forget to untap Sentinals and draw off of Visionary have an oops-I-win match against me with Painter. I don't want a three card combo in order to win. Red has plenty of game against 1/1s, Ensnaring Bridge is MVP, but the real problem is you have to have it in hand at the start and you only get a turn or two, maybe three, before they go off. That's max two or three main phases to land a Bridge, which they'll just GSZ for artifact removal, poop out a Craterhoof and that's that. The way I need to play to win, or at least how I feel I need to play, is that I have to stall their early game by sweeping a few dorks off the board, sticking a Cage to prevent them from digging stuff up, and then continuously add to the board Bridges or Revokers until I can close the game out in a prison-control fashion. I'm assuming they're going off turn two or three every game, which they more often than not do. No time to durdle around with a three card combo. And Cage is tits in other matchups, too.
Now that I screwed the primer maindeck list up by forgetting Blood Moon (which I have corrected) I want to find room for Welder again. It might be that I have a chubby for Koth, and I am trying to be objective about it.
I agree your SB is better against elves, but I still think no crypt is lacking against emrakul decks. Maybe there's a split that's is better.
I was also playing UR Painter for a bit, and finding bridge fast (3+1 of in the 75) was very easy. And 4 welder laughed at artifact removal.
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I really like your list Jandax. It's something I definitely want to test!
Thanks! I wouldn't fault you for running a Goblin Welder as a 61st card in your testing...:wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by Stils1
@Ish
Dude, UR painter is a totally different animal. Obv it was easier to find whatever you could want with Brainstorms and Ponders and the like.
It isn't that I had given up on Emrakul matches. I just think it is wiser to switch gears on them, and play more to their weaknesses than iPainter's strengths. I sure hope you can prove me wrong, because until I find room for the two Welders I want, I'm sticking with Cages and I'm not going over 60 cards.
Yeah it is different. I've played many more games with mono red, but elves wasn't as popular. I still relied on bridge when playing mono red though, and didn't feel like it was an unfavorable matchup. We can still go off turn 2 with a nuts draw as well... They are probably a little more consistent though.
That's also another reason for bolt effects MB. Killing a few essential critters can be crippling to elves.
I can see your point with cage, but I won't go to 0 crypt. I'm going to try a 3 cage/1 crypt split. That still gives me the out to SnT via mill.
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