Most likely M15 since they discussed it with current standard cards in testing.
I was going to argue in the SCD the merits of the card in this deck, but I figured I'd rather just start using them eventually with the surprise factor.
Printable View
Most likely M15 since they discussed it with current standard cards in testing.
I was going to argue in the SCD the merits of the card in this deck, but I figured I'd rather just start using them eventually with the surprise factor.
I've been brewing up a list recently, using ideas from this thread, so far I like the G splash with Loam the best. Loam just gives you so much power, especially with an Entomb to set things up. I'm trying 2x Crucible and 2x Loam right now but may change the numbers up as I go.
Has anyone ever tried Zoetic Cavern? While a little clunky, it plays nice with the deck, can be recast as Morph from the graveyard with Crucible in play, essentially filling that hard-to-get-rid-of creature spot that Nether Spirit occupies; the beauty of it is that if you cast it as Morph from the yard via Crucible, it obviously doesn't count as a land drop so you can bring in that additional pressure while you're also recycling your Mishra's/Wastelands, either way it's just an idea, I will try one out for awhile - I really like the play space that this deck occupies, it can be difficult for opponents to meaningfully interact with it.
I've played about ~50+ games in the last day or so, against a variety of decks, and I rarely feel like a complete underdog. The only problem against some decks (specifically Dredge, or decks that rely on very few lands, Belcher maybe although I haven't played against it yet, or perhaps some combo) is that there are too many dead cards in the main deck and not enough sideboard cards to properly replace them. Not much to be done about this I suppose, but when you're in a matchup where your Sinkholes, Smallpox, Abrupt Decay, Inquisitions, Wastelands, Crucibles, and possibly Hymns, don't really do much to them, it can make for a frustrating circumstance.
On a side note, has anyone tried any other color splashes? I was considering trying R, the deck has so many spells that Young Pyromancer might be interesting here, would have to go another direction with it but Pyro plays nicely with Pox and Retrace cards (I imagine Raven's Crime can get pretty abusive once you have a Pyro on board). Plus if you were still intending to stick with the land-based strategy, it could open up a few more utility lands (ie: Barbarian Ring) in some kind of BGR monstrosity.
I'm sure W also has some merit, for Lingering Souls, if nothing else.
This is incorrect. Zoetic Cavern does not share the intended synergy with Crucible of Worlds. If only...Quote:
Originally Posted by Mortox
A few observations from the last tourney:
Barren Moor cannot replace ordinary lands. Citp tapped is simply too bad for the decks tempo. It would be possible to run it, along with Gitaxian probe, as cantrips to thin the deck, but only if not including barren Moor I your land quota.
Braids, cabal minion is good, even for non control. The difficulty of getting that fourth mana in play suggest running dark rituals however.
An original take on our beloved Pox: Bw to be precise
http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=5500&d=231817
awesome list is awesome!
while the one with the green splash has been getting more of the limelight(pun intended :smile:), i would also go with white if i were to splash a color and take pox to a tourney..
thanks for sharing the link..
How are you guys dealing with Leyline of Sanctity?
MoS? Fine, it doesn't hit win conditions. RIP is worse since i run ghasts and stalkers.
What?
Rest in Peace. Another reason is that RIP is played in combo with Helm of Obedience; if one enters play the opponent suddenly have a clock on you. When he find the other combo piece you are dead.
Leyline is no big problem. If the opponent Sideboard in, say four of them, and you have eight discard spells in your deck, then he only is ahead by four cards.
It hits hymn to tourach, which is the best card in the deck. If they are playing show and tell it's pretty much GG. It also hits things like cursed scroll and edict effects (Liliana). So what do you do? Lose?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Well, first they need it in starting hand. Second the odds are less than 50% that it is. Third, they are down one card in their hand wether or not they have it at starting hand or Mulligan. Not what I call ideal position. IIRC the deck is a three card combo.
Then if you yourself play chalice, trinisphere and/or Nethervoid you are mostly interested in getting those in play. T:1 ritual -> trinisphere is better than Hymn.
Lilianas discard ability don't target btw. If he is on the play and go Leyline -> land, and you respond with ritual liliana then it is probably a win for you. Provided you have better win cons than scroll...
Yes you pretty much lose if you have based too much of your gameplan on discard. You could set a Ratchet Bomb but that will take a few turns.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Did Hollywood's decklist ever show up somewhere? As far as I understand, Jupiter games only publish top 8 decks and it appears that the deck in question did not make it. I'm just about to rebuild my Deck toward discard using Oppression, so it would be really interesting to take a peek at that list since I've always admired Keller's deckbuilding skills.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
i was also anxious to see his post about it..but for some reason it didn't come..
i reckon Hollywood is very busy developing other decks(he's always brewing new ideas) so i quit bothering him about it..
we may, however playtest it ourselves and come up with a more extensive report about it..
i'm sure others are also eager to hear how it does..
-I've always admired Menendian's deckbuilding skills.
i'm not sure i understood what you said there...did you mean hollywood is stephen menendian? im not sure, i've always thought hollywood's real name is Michael keller..but i could be wrong...
Indeed, I will post my list and a small report after playing next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
And I did indeed goof on Hollywood's real name. I was going through Menendian's articles over at Eternal Central when making the above post so my mind was elsewhere... I'm sorry Keller! My first real Legacy deck was The Gate so your advice will indeed always have a special place in my heart :)
Quote:
Originally Posted by wuberg
- and i am looking forward to hearing about that, good luck..
- yeah, i like his rogue mentality when building decks..
- the Gate was also one of my first legacy decks(monoblack), i like the thought processes involved in his selection of cards and how it attacked the meta..
This is one of the reasons why you don't go pure discard (yay sinkholes). Ratchet Bombing a Leyline is not a problem and since I run 3 copies of Pox and 4 Smallpox and Liliana of the Veil, I can rip down their resources regardless. Leyline ultimately shuts down only my discard spells and Cursed Scroll. Getting punched by 4 Mishra's, a Nether Spirit and/or Haunted Platemail is plenty fast. CS still kills their creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Oh yeah, Tombstalker. He looks at a player with Leyline of Sanctity and outright murders them... If your Pox Deck is losing to a single sideboard card, I highly suggest you re-evaluate your deck. Pox was specifically designed to harm the opponent from too many different angles and kill the opponent using multiple methods.
I don't run it, but The Rack + Liliana of the Veil >> Leylines.
true, i like the look of confusion on my opponent's face during sideboarding time, i can imagine them thinking: "what the hell do i side-in against pox??"Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
i once had an opponent running a parfait deck side-in story circles against me, it just sat there while mishra's and scrolls start picking away at his life total little by little like tweezers collecting dwarf nose hairs..
I am thinking of testing Phyrexian Metamorph
Any thoughts?
Not good for Pox. Too mana intensive. You're hoping your opponent plays a creature that spells "I win" so you can steal it. If your Pox deck is built to handle creature threats, which it should be, then it will end up being a dead card. Since most Pox decks like to run Innocent Blood (best 1cc removal imo) you could be forced to sac it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Worst case, it's the only threat in your hand and your opponent's threats all died to your removal.
I was thinking it would be an equalizer at best, making goyf and Delver blockers, and SDT and the rack copies at worst (my own ofc) .
At least I would get parity in the creature department.
The auto-include in my deck is the bloodghasts, but I can't find equally good heavy hitters. Nihilith and tombstalker both are strong but have weaknesses that make them difficult to get in play sometimes. Ishan's shade would be perfect if not for the casting cost; hard to kill with burn, safe from AD and StP.
That is what I am looking for I new sets: good black creatures.
Thanks for the input!
Has anyone tried Wight of Precinct Six? Its cheap and can be very cost-efficient, especially late game. Imagine facing goblins and dropping a 10/10 for 2 mana as a finisher... Thoughts?
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
Hm, worth testing. Would be insane vs dredge if you can get past the zombie tokens.
I have been looking for another zombie to make Gravecrawler and this one is cheap enough. There is that zombie you can make bigger through sacrifice, but it need you to recur creatures all the time.
Sewer Nemesis is a card I like, sand would play, except for its "high" casing cost.
Ghoultree? Worth a thought.
Derp nevermind... I thought it was all graveyards.
hmm, i like this card..Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
can find room in a lot of decks, not just in pox..
i think it can have a better use in a pox deck than phyrexian metamorph..
metamorph's good but just as the early post had mentioned, its just not for pox..
another good one! i can see this being good in a meta with very few combo..its like a black tarmagoyf!:smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Karbunkelsopp
If your build has less all-players-sac effects, creatures are fine. But that Wight is like a Black version of Boneyard Wurm. If you're in a very narrow meta with lots of small creatures, I'd say go for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
The best 'creature' I've tested recently is Haunted Platemail. 1-of in the deck. Immune to most removal and harder to burn. Equipping him on my lone Nether Spirit gives me a Goyf killer 6/6 that doesn't stop my Mishra's Factories. Alone, he's bolt resistant and makes a great weenie wall. That and he's a decent clock.
These creature builds sound as if they should be in a deck without Innocent Blood or Pox. The problem is you're going to have to stuff your Pox deck with lots of 'sac-fodder' if you're going the creature route and unfortunately, that never worked for me. The other colors have better creatures on the whole. And I don't like splashing. I don't run budget Pox, but I'm glad my deck costs half of my friend's Land Still deck and can still kick some serious ass.
I agree. I like Haunted Plate Mail in a build where Nether Spirit is the only creature. In my mono-black build it has been pretty good. I am usually able to keep it out of my hand until I have 4 mana to play it through SD Top library manipulation. I've been experimenting with splashing green recently and have been testing Garruck, Relentless in that slot. Some games it is better than others. I like that it can kill a weenie and then produce some more for deathtouch chumping and eventually wincon. Other times it is slow and expensive, and has the same problem as Lilly in that if they have more than one creature out it is troublesome to play other than a high cc Innocent Blood. But if you do happen to have Lilly and Garruck out at the same time- ooh boy.
Hey guys.
Novice Pox player here :) I'm looking to get some feedback on my list. It seems that i have problems closing the games and my opponent slowly comes back and steals it :(
Land (26)
1x Dakmor Salvage
2x Marsh Flats
4x Mishra's Factory
1x Rishadan Port
8x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
Enchantment (1)
1x Nether Void
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Veil
Sorcery (19)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
Instant (5)
4x Dark Ritual
1x Darkblast
Artifact (4)
2x Cursed Scroll
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Creature (1)
1x Nether Spirit
Sideboard (15)
3x Engineered Plague
2x Massacre
2x Nihil Spellbomb
3x Pithing Needle
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Surgical Extraction
1x The Abyss
Get rid of Massacre and stick Tombstalker in your Sideboard. :cool: I'd also get rid of one Rishadan Port and one SDT and put in two Pox. Pox is a nuke of 7 damage on a healthy player. I sometimes wonder why people completely omit the deck's namesake card when it does soo much damage to health pools and board states.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
People also have the incorrect assumption that Liliana is a win condition. If your opponent is at 1 hp, Liliana can't kill them, but POX CAN! :laugh:
I'm not a big fan of granddaddy Pox. Actually i'd like to Try Depths+Stage as a win con. However, for that to happen i think i'll need a least 1 Crucible of World. But i just can't find the 3 cards to cut for it. Any suggestions?Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Hey Rook1e,Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
Your list looks similar to the Loam/Pox/Depths list I'm testing. It's doing very well so far, here it is:
3 mishra’s factory
3 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
4 wasteland
2 thespian’s stage
2 dark depths
1 maze of ith
4 verdant catacombs
2 windswept heath
3 barren moor
1 cabal pit
4 bayou
1 swamp
1 forest
4 smallpox
4 abrupt decay
3 innocent blood
4 hymn to tourach
4 thoughtseize
3 liliana of the veil
4 life from the loam
3 crop rotation
Hope you can find some things you like from this list. Cabal pit has been amazing. It kills so many creatures in this format: delver, deathrite, stoneforge, confidant, elves, everything in death/taxes (even mirran crusader!), goblins. Maze of ith has also been great against batterskull and other hard to deal with creatures. Barren moor I wasn't sure about. Now I'm sold, it's such a good late game engine and cantrips in the early game.
My SB is:
3 krosan grip
4 vampire hexmage
2 dark depths
1 thespian's stage
1 karakas
1 bojuka bog
3 choke
Vampire hexmage + more combo lands is there to race faster combo (even burn) and kill Jace in the miracles matchup.
As you suggested, Crucible is likely the answer to your eventuality problem. Being able to recur Wasteland (chiefly) as well as Mishra's Factories gives you a much stronger late-game, and I've actually never played Pox without some form of land recursion. If you splash green, Life From the Loam becomes an option (and Sylvan Library helps tremendously with the late-game), otherwise Crucible does the trick nicely. Cut a land and either a Cursed Scroll or Nether Spirit for 2 Crucibles, and see if you like it. It sounds paradoxical, but cutting 'win conditions' for control elements will actually improve your deck's ability to close out games. I run a single Scroll and 4 Factories, and my late-game feels unstoppable. Having more threats actually helps your mid-game and makes it easier to stabilize against midrange decks (where my list suffers somewhat). Having more control elements ensures that your deck transitions successfully to a prison deck once you have neutralized your opponent. Winning at that point is fairly arbitrary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
I also want to say, if you're a Pox 'novice', at some point you should proxy up a green-splashing list. Opinions differ on the relative merits of mono-black and 'Golgari' lists, but you should at least try both so you're aware of what's out there. For me there was no going back once I'd tried it. And don't worry about Loam Pox if it seems like too different a deck. From your list, just cut 3 Innocent Blood and 1 Dark Blast for 4 Abrupt Decay, replace 2 Sensei's Divining Top with 2 Sylvan Library, and cut 4 Swamps for 4 Bayou. Voila!
I've never heard of consistency in a combo variant win. Either build the deck to stomp them dead with the combo, or don't do it at all. Combo is an all in way to play after all. Pox, when I proxied it, never won with Depths Hexmage and any other old Depths version I've tested just falls flat. I find myself wanting to get Entomb and other tutor style cards in an attempt to make the win con hit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
"Oops I win" never applies to a deck that prevents your opponent from playing the game. It's like we're trying to be a Black High Tide whenever I see Depths Combo win built into a Pox deck. The less conditional cards we run, the better. The only necessary cards I've seen in a Pox deck that have certain conditions to max effectiveness is Liliana of the Veil + Cursed Scroll/the Rack.
I guess if you have to ask, Rishadan Port & Dakmor Salvage & SDT.
I know it seems kind meet and tacky. But from my experience with lands, where i also run it, it just so good to end the game in one shot when you have the game under control. I've lost to many times to a 'closed' game to just write it off without at least a little bit of testing. However, you are very likely to be right - and probably are, but i wan't to give it a chance to shine :)Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Besides your clear dislike of the above, what are your thoughts on this list with a singleton of each:
Land (26)
2x Cabal Pit
1x Dark Depths
2x Marsh Flats
1x Maze of Ith
4x Mishra's Factory
6x Swamp
1x The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1x Thespian's Stage
3x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
Enchantment (1)
1x Nether Void
Sorcery (19)
4x Hymn to Tourach
3x Innocent Blood
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
4x Sinkhole
4x Smallpox
Artifact (5)
2x Crucible of Worlds
1x Cursed Scroll
2x Sensei's Divining Top
Instant (5)
4x Dark Ritual
1x Darkblast
Planeswalker (4)
4x Liliana of the Ve
I got a decent result yesterday with this deck. I went 3-1 losing only to burn in the final round (curses!) The change that is important is the increase of land count to 24. Sickening Dreams seems to work, but I am not sure how well, yet.
Will change focus to my crappy sideboard now since the main seem to be good enough.
4 Bloodghast
3 Tombstalker
3 Nihilith
4 Smallpox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Pox
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Sickening Dreams
3 Darkblast
4 The Rack
2 Sensei’s Divining Top
22 Swamp
2 Dakmor Salvage
SB
3 Nevinyrral's disk
2 Black Sun’s Zenith
2 Encroach
4 Surgical Extraction
4 thorn of Amethyst
Drop the SDT count to 1 and insert Nether Spirit. Having Discard Fodder without the Crucible is helpful. I find lands harder to throw to Pox early game but as just a 1 of, Nether Spirit is fine in a deck list like yours.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rook1e
Now you'll have all the 1-ofs you'd ever want! :laugh:
THE DISK! My friend's old school Psychatog runs it. Costs 2x as much as the Ratchet Bomb, but activates much faster and sweeps like a Baws!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Black Sun's Zenith and Encroach are awkward. I'd say Blackmail is better than Encroach as a 2 of. BSZ is too costly. If Infest can't take care of the job combined with your Saccing removal, something is terribly wrong.
Surgical Extraction. I'd rather run Leylines. Certain decks that use the Yard require you to shut them off pretty much before the game starts. PiF combo, Dredge, etc. Deny them a graveyard from the start and you should almost auto win. I run 4 Leyline of the void and a singleton Surgical Extraction. This lets me kill their enchantment removal copies all at once. :mad:
Thorn? Sphere of resistance is better. Though since you're not of the Sinkhole/Wasteland design, mana tax effects maybe of lesser efficiency. What's this slot for?