[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

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Originally Posted by RiverCake

Maybe 3 Hooting Mandrills and one Probe to fill the grave but I like the Rancor to :cool:

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I really like Hooting Mandrills in the place of mongoose because it is an answer to the cards that give this deck the most problems: abrupt decay, counterbalance, and True name nemesis.

The only card that sees a LOT of legacy play that affects mandrills (and didn't affect mongoose) is swords to plowshares (but you save your counters for those)- I think Delve 5 and the cost of only one forest gives the option to be live turn 2 or 3 while having mana up. Its low enough of a cmc that it can still be cast in the face of an active DRS-

I don't think it has much disynergy with Goyf because your opponent has a GY too. Downside is drawing this in multiples sucks

I think Hooting Mandrills is a 2-of at best. It also would be better fit in a list that packs the old-school Thought Scour.

I don't think I'd go below 3 Nimble Mongoose, tho. Swords to Plowshares is still a thing in this format.

I could see howling mongrel see play but the biggest issue I have is that it is so anti-synergistic with goose. Often goose is not threshed till 4 or 5 and if you delve 4-5 cards out of the grave to cast this guy your goose is going to be unthreshed till the late late game.

Also, it's quite funny how an early RiP effectively counters all the copies of this card.

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Also, it's quite funny how an early RiP effectively counters all the copies of this card.

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No more so then goyf or goose. In fact against grave hate I would say this is better because once it's down you don't care about grave hate anymore.

In playtesting I am going to replace 4 geese with 2-3 copies of this card because ultimately the two just could not co-exist in the deck.

Any gravehate argument for this card can basically be applied to goyf or goose and I would argue this guy probably comes out a turn earlier than goose reaches threshold. I think the fact that he can be played for G and the fact that our countermagic is effective against all the cards in the format that can remove it make it a viable threat.

Personally the reason I play RUG instead of BUG are Nimble Mongoose, Lightning Bolt, REB and Stifle. There are enough games where my opponent is looking at his removal spell cursing to himself because of the Shroud. I agree however that that new card looks decent as a 1-2 of.

im looking to play this beast with RUG Zoo, together with its brother... Kird Apes and not with em mongeese. But then again it has the downside of exiling bullets from ur own grims..
i agree too with VANDALIZE bout the thought scours for this..good thing i didnt trade my foils yet! im excited bout this card, but tests need to prove its worth.

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Originally Posted by TraxDaMax

Personally the reason I play RUG instead of BUG are Nimble Mongoose, Lightning Bolt, REB and Stifle. There are enough games where my opponent is looking at his removal spell cursing to himself because of the Shroud. I agree however that that new card looks decent as a 1-2 of.

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Again, as it has already been said a lot thus far, our cheap efficient counters take care of the predominant spot removal in the format right now.

Moreover, whether you play 2, 3 or 4, this card, it simply CANNOT be viable and plausibly be compatible with Nimble Mongoose in the same deck. In short, either you play Nimble Mongoose or you play Hooting Mandrills; its one of the other. Indeed, there is no 3x of Nimble and 2x of Hooting. You would only be undermining the power of the deck and cutting your own throat by playing both.

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Originally Posted by Emo

In playtesting I am going to replace 4 geese with 2-3 copies of this card because ultimately the two just could not co-exist in the deck.

Any gravehate argument for this card can basically be applied to goyf or goose and I would argue this guy probably comes out a turn earlier than goose reaches threshold. I think the fact that he can be played for G and the fact that our countermagic is effective against all the cards in the format that can remove it make it a viable threat.

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I concur!

I'll agree we have counters for that, but mongoose can be deployed turn 1 also.
They both have upsides and downsides I guess.

The good thing about him is he allows us to push the aggro role better. You can realistically cast him before turn 3 if you need to 2 turns before goose is threshed normally and he very effectively pushes damage through. I think he would be very good in the 7 bolt versions looking something like this
4 delver
4 goyf
3 new-guy
1 TNN/clique/library (because I am hesitant to slam 4 delve cards into the deck)
4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 bolt
4 force
4 daze
3 chain lightning
2 pierce
1 snare
18 land

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

I think Hooting Mandrills is a 2-of at best. It also would be better fit in a list that packs the old-school Thought Scour.

I don't think I'd go below 3 Nimble Mongoose, tho. Swords to Plowshares is still a thing in this format.

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Originally Posted by trollking21

I could see howling mongrel see play but the biggest issue I have is that it is so anti-synergistic with goose. Often goose is not threshed till 4 or 5 and if you delve 4-5 cards out of the grave to cast this guy your goose is going to be unthreshed till the late late game.

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I think they can't go both in one deck

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

Also, it's quite funny how an early RiP effectively counters all the copies of this card.

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Goyf and Nimble Mongoos are all in all worse with RIP on the board. He is unaffected from grave hate after the cast

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Originally Posted by TraxDaMax

I'll agree we have counters for that, but mongoose can be deployed turn 1 also.
They both have upsides and downsides I guess.

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I think you dont want to cast mongoose on turn one he is just affektivafter turn 4-5 after Threshold.

Actually it gets cast often enough on turn one. Because on the play that means only FoW can counter it.

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Originally Posted by TraxDaMax

Actually it gets cast often enough on turn one. Because on the play that means only FoW can counter it.

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Thats true! but I like to keep mana open to counter/stifle/fake counter ( only when I cant cast Delver)

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Originally Posted by RiverCake

Thats true! but I like to keep mana open to counter/stifle/fake counter ( only when I cant cast Delver)

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I like to play my threats asap, even if Mongoose is a mere 1/1. Remember, we're tempo, so baring some obscure interactions/cases (like GP showing they're on one fetch or being in need to not run into Daze), I prefer to cast my dudes immediately to press since the very beginning and then apply the usual StifleDazeWaste plan. Of course, of course, ideal circumstances and all that jazz. It's not like I never waited with my dudes, but ever since I deploy them as aggressivelly as reasonably possible, I feel much more confident and relaxed.

On the 4/4 monkey: what I dislike about the ape is how exactly it once again relies on gy. Yeah, all of you are right that RiP does nothing once this hits the play, and I also know it. What bothers me is the fact that it cannot be played by normal mana, unless considering some late lategame with all our lands in play. So it basically forces you to play the dude pre-emptively (yeah...) on the first occasion; not when you want to play it, but when you can. This also brings all sort of trouble like running into counterspells, or not having mana for our own counterspells, which is especially bad if the next spell cast will be any kind of Terror or even Rest in Peace that shuts down goyfs and lets us with only the ape in play and no way to cast any other.

The fact that it suppresses mongoose is pretty unfortunate, too. And I really dislike to cut it, as its shroud won me games I had no business to win, like dealing twelve to an unflucky guy holding double Swords... and a Decay on top of them.

Idk. I really want this card to be good. Last time it was really nice to add a beater that cost 0.3 bucks.

Speaking of which: if no other good came from this card than that it becomes a Tarmogoyf Lite, it'll be still pretty nice. All those Legacy initiates will have a dude to play with.

I'd love to play with this card, the idea of dodging conterbalance, tnn or even RiP is really convincing. But, we also need to remember that there are SUBMERGES. And thay are really good job by dealing with this guy.

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Originally Posted by mextremartini

I'd love to play with this card, the idea of dodging conterbalance, tnn or even RiP is really convincing. But, we also need to remember that there are SUBMERGES. And thay are really good job by dealing with this guy.

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And Chalice...

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Originally Posted by RiverCake

Thats true! but I like to keep mana open to counter/stifle/fake counter ( only when I cant cast Delver)

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Unless you know what you're up against, game 1 on the play I think deploying threats > holding up stifle mana. I once played the safer road of RUG like you suggest, but you'll often just lose tempo because of this I've realized over ther years. RUG Delver is a tempo deck, not a control deck and should be played like a tempo deck. Counters and Stifle are still good on turn 2, unless they get to see your hand somehow.
I like BedDeckPlayer's explanation of why he doesn't like the new 4/4. Basicly the same reason as myself.
Can you imagine nuking your own graveyard just to have your dude StP'ed, or bounced with Jace/Venser/Submerge? The difference between this new ape and Tombstalker is that Tombstalker is 5/5 and flies. Which really is worlds ahead in strength. A 4/4 still get's blocked by Goyf a decent amount of the time.

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Originally Posted by TraxDaMax

The difference between this new ape and Tombstalker is that Tombstalker is 5/5 and flies. Which really is worlds ahead in strength. A 4/4 still get's blocked by Goyf a decent amount of the time.

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I don't think Tombstalker is a fair comparison because it costs BB and delve 6. From my expierence RUG operates optimally* off two lands and rarely likes tapping out on its turn; therefore, being able to cast this for G and hold up another land for spell pierce, spell snare, bolt makes this guy much easier to deploy than tombstalker and allow you to continue your tempo plan- also mongoose gets blocked by Goyf a decent amount of the time as well.

Hey guys, I was thinking about another awesome interaction that the new guy could provide, and it is that with him and goyf is possible to trade 2 pierce for 2 STUBBORN DENIAL, which is a big deal in late game. Then, i was thinking about the "new RUG"

4 delver
4 goyf
3 hooting mandrils
1 TNN

4 stifle
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 bolt
4 force
4 daze

2 forked bolt
2 stubborn denial
2 Probe (fuel for gv)
18 lands

Is it maybe time to start talking about Young Pyromancer again? If we're going to run Mandrills, and obviously we don't want to run 4 as they cannibalize each other, and we're probably looking to go up to 3 or 4 Git Probes to support delving, it seems like 2-3 young pyromancers would synergize well.

Given that we are talking about delve cards, does anyone think ether of the 2 new delve draw spells are worth it here?
Once again they conflict pretty hard with mongoose, but 1 mana draw 3's are pretty powerful, and a 2 mana look at the top 7 pick 2 is a pretty powerful effect as well.

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Originally Posted by Ralf

And Chalice...

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Dude, Chalice equally affects Mongoose. Bad argument.

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Speaking of which: if no other good came from this card than that it becomes a Tarmogoyf Lite, it'll be still pretty nice. All those Legacy initiates will have a dude to play with.

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Not really. Again, this cannot be emphasized enough, Nimble Mongoose is not playable in the same deck as Hooting Mandrills! So for the casual players that cannot afford Tarmogoyf, this is still, nonetheless, a really bad idea!

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Originally Posted by Demonic_Attorney

Dude, Chalice equally affects Mongoose. Bad argument.

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You would need a chalice on 6 to stop howling mondrells. So no they aren't effected equally

upon testing (simulated goose as proxy) i dont think MANDRILS will make the cut for our 60.. here's some points
1. cant cast it on turn 1 unlike mongoose. mongoose and mandrils too will not co-exist.
2. by replacing mongoose..instead of countering other impt things, im much more focused on protecting my Mandril clock..and this can easily fold to hate mentioned above...stp, dismember, submerges etc...
3. im seeing a teamup with goyf for fast beats, loses to a resolved rip..well, by the time we can hard cast mandrils..the game has already a clear outcome of who's winning or not.
4. though im excited upon seeing mandrils at first, shroud ability of goose that won us many games is just so hard to replace considering we're running a very low count of critters at 12.

i'll be running a few more tests with team8s this weekend, see where it goes..

Im little bit excited about using Adamant Negation ( http://leviatanmtg.com/Khans-of-Tark...Negation/34000 ) instead of Spell Pierce together with goyfs and Hooting Mandrills (instead of goose) to protect them or to counter noncreature spells. What do you think?

Playtested against my friend with Merfolks (the new kind, with 4 TNN and Chalice of the Void maindeck) and got DESTROYED. Not even those Red Elemental Blasts could put up a fight against his deck. He also plays 3 Dismembers and 3 Submerges in his 75 (I think 3 Dismembers MB and 3 Submerges SB) to slam the door in my face.

We played 5 Best of 3 matches, and I won only 1. It was something like: 0-2, 0-2, 1-2, 0-2, 2-1.

The games I won I had a fast Delver, or double Delver, or wasted his Cavern of Souls and he couldn't reach UU. In the game I had double Delver, I could swing for 12 damage, then he Submerged one, Dismembered the other, but double Bolt sealed the deal. I could Force of Will AEther Vial three times in those matches, but it wasn't that relevant. Once they assemble Chalice of the Void, or do some shenanigans with AEther Vial into lord, to blank my Lightning Bolt, we're pretty screwed.

Vendilion Clique was useful, not stellar. I was able to steal a TNN in response of an activated Vial @3.

I have playtested a couple games with Mandrills and he seemed to work well in the matchups I tested against- BUT- the big difference is I ran 3 of him main and my flex spots, which now are at 7, were 1 Thought scour, 3 Gitaxian probes, 2 spell pierces and 1 forked bolt. The Gitaxian probes are necessary because they really make an impact turn one and that extra card in the yard (not to mention information for stifle/spell pierce shenanigans) meant the difference of dropping mandrills turn 2-3 as opposed to turn 3-4 in almost everygame when I had him. I think if I had done a flex of 2 spell snare, 2 Forked bolt and 2 spell pierces, the Mandrills wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

Secondly, he shines in certain matchups but seems less optimal in others.
I really like him against BUG decks- if they don't have a goyf out quickly with enough cards in the yard, Mandrills often starts spamming some serious damage and more often than not my opponent had active deathrite and goyf which made using deathrite very difficult after I had dropped mandrills: goyf was almost always a 3/4 in these games. Lastly, in many games it felt like mandrills just blanked TNN

The matchup where I oftentime wanted a mongoose more than this guy was miracles. 1) someone posted in the Khans thread that this still can be countered by counterbalance, I seriously wonder sometimes... Anyways back to my main point: there were a few games where they got an early top and I was able to resolve him BUT more often than not the threat of STPs with having snapcasters to back up the STPs felt more of an issue and this is the matchup where I think Mongoose is just straight up better.

Have not yet tested against Jund or Deathblade or UWR delver.



Anyways my thoughts are this. This card NEEDs more playtesting, and the Flex cards in the Deck make a HUGE difference in terms of synergy. Against Miracles I was always wishing I had a turn aside rather than a spell pierce in hand, since now all our threats can be STP but yea I think this card is interesting, WOULD LOVE for it to have 5 toughness but maybe that is asking too much.

If Mandrills prove to be successful in playtesting, can we open 3 sideboard slots for Nimble Mongoose, mainly to deal with Miracles? It's by far the most relevant threat in the matchup.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

If Mandrills prove to be successful in playtesting, can we open 3 sideboard slots for Nimble Mongoose, mainly to deal with Miracles? It's by far the most relevant threat in the matchup.

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If you're siding a threat specifically for Miracles, I generally like Sulfuric Vortex the best. It's helpful in beating most midrange matchups.

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Originally Posted by Emo

I have playtested a couple games with Mandrills and he seemed to work well in the matchups I tested against- BUT- the big difference is I ran 3 of him main and my flex spots, which now are at 7, were 1 Thought scour, 3 Gitaxian probes, 2 spell pierces and 1 forked bolt. The Gitaxian probes are necessary because they really make an impact turn one and that extra card in the yard (not to mention information for stifle/spell pierce shenanigans) meant the difference of dropping mandrills turn 2-3 as opposed to turn 3-4 in almost everygame when I had him. I think if I had done a flex of 2 spell snare, 2 Forked bolt and 2 spell pierces, the Mandrills wouldn't have worked nearly as well.

Secondly, he shines in certain matchups but seems less optimal in others.
I really like him against BUG decks- if they don't have a goyf out quickly with enough cards in the yard, Mandrills often starts spamming some serious damage and more often than not my opponent had active deathrite and goyf which made using deathrite very difficult after I had dropped mandrills: goyf was almost always a 3/4 in these games. Lastly, in many games it felt like mandrills just blanked TNN

The matchup where I oftentime wanted a mongoose more than this guy was miracles. 1) someone posted in the Khans thread that this still can be countered by counterbalance, I seriously wonder sometimes... Anyways back to my main point: there were a few games where they got an early top and I was able to resolve him BUT more often than not the threat of STPs with having snapcasters to back up the STPs felt more of an issue and this is the matchup where I think Mongoose is just straight up better.

Have not yet tested against Jund or Deathblade or UWR delver.



Anyways my thoughts are this. This card NEEDs more playtesting, and the Flex cards in the Deck make a HUGE difference in terms of synergy. Against Miracles I was always wishing I had a turn aside rather than a spell pierce in hand, since now all our threats can be STP but yea I think this card is interesting, WOULD LOVE for it to have 5 toughness but maybe that is asking too much.

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Thank you for the nice report.

Do you think 3 of them are to much or is it ok ?

I think Young Pyro can be played in this setup to with the probes.

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Originally Posted by RiverCake

Thank you for the nice report.

Do you think 3 of them are to much or is it ok ?

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I think 3 Mandrills felt just about right one of the drawbacks is it does drop the threat count to 11 and I didn't want to go below that (I personally dont like TNN mainboard because of the 3 cmc)- I Rarely drew the apes in multiples and if I did draw two in the first 3 turns- I usually shuffled one back with a brainstorm. I also like running 3 because that opens up the flex spot to be 7 which allows for MD builds with 3-4 probes or 1-2 thought scours.

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Originally Posted by Emo

I think 3 Mandrills felt just about right one of the drawbacks is it does drop the threat count to 11 and I didn't want to go below that (I personally dont like TNN mainboard because of the 3 cmc)- I Rarely drew the apes in multiples and if I did draw two in the first 3 turns- I usually shuffled one back with a brainstorm. I also like running 3 because that opens up the flex spot to be 7 which allows for MD builds with 3-4 probes or 1-2 thought scours.

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Is one singel young pyromancer solution for the 12th threat ? ( with all thes probes)

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Originally Posted by RiverCake

Is one singel young pyromancer solution for the 12th threat ? ( with all thes probes)

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He plays well with probe, and even pretty well with thought scour given it's a spell that doesn't cost you a card.
1-2 pyromancer can fill those 12th and 13th creature slots, if you're on the mandrill plan

I play tested 3 Mandrills + 1 Young Pyromancer / 1 grim lavamancer ( in the flex spots 3 Probes).

I played vs. Death and Taxes:
He is pretty good vs all the 3 power creatures ( Spirit of the Labyrinth, Brimaz, King of Oreskos and Flickerwisp). He trampels over the mother ! The down side is he can get hit by the SWTP.

vs. Maverick
same to Death and Taxes

vs Blade Controll
He was soild and I never disliked him on my hand. He ran over the TNN that was nice 8).

vs. bant
same as blade.

Generally I never diskliked him. I could always play him turn 3 for one mana. He nerver shrinked my goyf.
The young Pyromanver wasn't real good as the 12th threat. Thats why I tried to play the grim lavamancer (but never draw him).

All in all he has to get some more play tested but he was solid an in some ways more power full than the Nimble mongoose.

I think Mandrills isn't playable. Not to be a Debbie Downer, but getting Plowed, Jaced, and getting blanked by Goyf is just too big of a downside, on top of his already existing downside of requiring Delve. If he were like 3G he still might not be good enough, simply because vanilla beaters need to be stellar to make it these days. To all those who say "just protect him with your taxing counters" that plan is doomed to fail because by the time you have enough to cast it they have enough mana to pay for Pierce and Daze easily. In all honesty I'd rather have 8 mongeese than Goyf, so cutting mongoose or a worse Tarmogoyf seems backwards.

I goldfished Mandrils in my deck runing 4 Gitaxian probes. I thought that multiples would be a problem but its actually not. I think its easy to forget how bad moon gose can be. It can win you the game, but its quite comon that hes still a 1/1 in round five or that the other player wins because you have goose and he has goyf. With probes you can sometimes play Hooters safe turn two. He easily lands turn 3. Moon gose also has the problem that you often need to land another creature to get enough tempo before their power cards kicks in. My wersion of the deck plays 3 stifles and 3 spellpierce. I thing the pierce will be important to protect him. For me playing Hooters is really a no brainer. There is no wersion of the deck that plays 3 goyfs. You realy need goyfs 4 to make a successful deck. Would you like to play a goyf thats 4/4 with trampe for one green intead of a 2/3 or a 3/4 without trample for two? Trample realy plays well with the tempo aspect of the deck. If we cant protect Hooters then the deck needs to be modyfied. Maybe an extra pierce wich also would help out versus miracles. I think that Hooters is going to be played as a 4 of and he is perfect i a tempo control deck with cantripps. The only question really is how the deck will be designed around him. i also think that using Hooters wil brake probe. I won so many games just playing probe. one of the most important decisions when playing thresh is what to do with the mana turn one. If you get that right you can often win. Gitaxian makes ponder insane!

Just a few thoughts.

Mole

Has anyone tried stubborn denial in a mandrills and goyf build? Seems like it is worth testing because it has some lategame potential, spell pierce seems better in most cases- but maybe denial could serve as a sideboard card (although Idk what it would replace) but it seems useful against decks like miracles, shardless, and UWR delver. Just a thought-

I think mandrills is playable perhaps even good. Why don't we compare what match ups each is better in?

Sneak and show
Mandrills, a 4/4 beats a 3/3 pretty simple, if I'm aware I'm playing them I don't typically play turn 1 goose, I would rather do just about anything else.

Storm
Mandrills, for the exact same reason as sneak and show

Elves
Trample is super relevant, no block bounce shenanigans, no chump blocks. Mandrills by a mile

Shard less
Mandrills. None of their removal hits either one, trample is relevant through baleful strix (turning a trade into a bolt) as well as being able to trample through all the little dudes they out on the ground. Additionally just being a bugger side always helps.

Miracles
Mongoose by a mile. Sometimes you get a free win because they have 2 swords and a no terminus. Size is not nearly as relevant as getting an extra turn of swinging out.

Team America
Mandrills, removal hits neither one, additionally trample is very relevant here as you can get a bolt through true name, or dark confidant.

UWR delver
Neutral. Mandrills doesn't trade with delver, and tramples through true name. Swords however kills mandrills and not mongoose. Personally I would lean towards being the aggressor here and trying to squeeze through damage, but you could very reasonably try to mongoose all the way.

Blade variants
? I don't get much practice against blade so I haven't a clue. My guess would be goose but I don't know.

Generally speaking against any deck not running swords I think mandrills is probably better. Mandrills avoids all the other removal in the format (decay, bolt) has a bigger body, and trample seems very relevant. The main hit is against miracles, where you will mongoose.

Hopefully next week I should be able to actually test him out.

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Originally Posted by trollking21

I think mandrills is playable perhaps even good. Why don't we compare what match ups each is better in?

Sneak and show
Mandrills, a 4/4 beats a 3/3 pretty simple, if I'm aware I'm playing them I don't typically play turn 1 goose, I would rather do just about anything else.

Storm
Mandrills, for the exact same reason as sneak and show

Elves
Trample is super relevant, no block bounce shenanigans, no chump blocks. Mandrills by a mile

Shard less
Mandrills. None of their removal hits either one, trample is relevant through baleful strix (turning a trade into a bolt) as well as being able to trample through all the little dudes they out on the ground. Additionally just being a bugger side always helps.

Miracles
Mongoose by a mile. Sometimes you get a free win because they have 2 swords and a no terminus. Size is not nearly as relevant as getting an extra turn of swinging out.

Team America
Mandrills, removal hits neither one, additionally trample is very relevant here as you can get a bolt through true name, or dark confidant.

UWR delver
Neutral. Mandrills doesn't trade with delver, and tramples through true name. Swords however kills mandrills and not mongoose. Personally I would lean towards being the aggressor here and trying to squeeze through damage, but you could very reasonably try to mongoose all the way.

Blade variants
? I don't get much practice against blade so I haven't a clue. My guess would be goose but I don't know.

Generally speaking against any deck not running swords I think mandrills is probably better. Mandrills avoids all the other removal in the format (decay, bolt) has a bigger body, and trample seems very relevant. The main hit is against miracles, where you will mongoose.

Hopefully next week I should be able to actually test him out.

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Nice post :) I am going to playtest to day I hope I get some more blade enemys :)