[DTB] U/R Delver

Been doing some testing at the weekend with preordains over ponders as Threevoices says above and would have to say I really like it.

Running the list with the value 1-ofs of Bed Rev, TNN, Peezy, Lavamancer and Stormchaser. Also 4 bolt, 4 chain, 2 forked bolt, 4 preordain and 2 ponders.

Preordain just feels better in this deck, it gives you a certain amount of velocity, especially early game, to just ditch things that you don't need and dig a bit deeper for things you do need. It also fits in really nicely with brainstorm for occasions when you don't have a fetch and need to get rid of some cards on the top of the library.

Stormchaser is still, by far, the weakest card in the deck. I am considering maybe replacing him with a Soul-Scar mage as it's potentially useful with Goyfs and such becoming more commonplace and it's still a one drop even if it doesn't have haste.

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Originally Posted by Smuggo

Been doing some testing at the weekend with preordains over ponders as Threevoices says above and would have to say I really like it.

Running the list with the value 1-ofs of Bed Rev, TNN, Peezy, Lavamancer and Stormchaser. Also 4 bolt, 4 chain, 2 forked bolt, 4 preordain and 2 ponders.

Preordain just feels better in this deck, it gives you a certain amount of velocity, especially early game, to just ditch things that you don't need and dig a bit deeper for things you do need. It also fits in really nicely with brainstorm for occasions when you don't have a fetch and need to get rid of some cards on the top of the library.

Stormchaser is still, by far, the weakest card in the deck. I am considering maybe replacing him with a Soul-Scar mage as it's potentially useful with Goyfs and such becoming more commonplace and it's still a one drop even if it doesn't have haste.

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Stormchaser has always been the worst card in the deck and I've never understood why people played it. Especially with the way the metagame is now, it's either better to be hyper agressive with more burn and Goblin Guide, or more midrange with more cantrips and Young Pyromancer.

I still think it makes more sense to go Grixis if going the Young Pyromancer route, but it is what it is.

I think the hyper aggressive burn heavy list is well positioned in the current metagame, honestly. It's unfortunate no one else is trying it though...

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Stormchaser has always been the worst card in the deck and I've never understood why people played it. Especially with the way the metagame is now, it's either better to be hyper agressive with more burn and Goblin Guide, or more midrange with more cantrips and Young Pyromancer.

I still think it makes more sense to go Grixis if going the Young Pyromancer route, but it is what it is.

I think the hyper aggressive burn heavy list is well positioned in the current metagame, honestly. It's unfortunate no one else is trying it though...

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Preban Young Pyromancer was an amazing card in all UR Delver lists, it won soooo many games for me and was in ALL builds better than Stormchaser imo. Postban it is true, Ur Prowess is kind of dead or at least extremely nerfed and Young Pyromancer is more Tempo than Aggro so either some Burn heavy list with Delver splash and no Pyromancer or go full Grixis Delver, even if B is only for Gurmag Angler and black sideboard cards.

I have been testing the deck non stop since the bannings and it just saddens me inside that Prowess got nerfed. It was my favorite deck of all time (Im playing since 2009), I kind of realize now how people felt when Survival of the Fittest got banned. Probe was just such a gamebreaker for this deck. There could be a potential Ur Delver list if we get either a blue or red Gurmag Angler/Hooting Mandrills or just a little faster Reveler. Right now the deck doesnt really has a home. I am currently on an URg build which is splashing for Hooting Mandrills, the rest is classical UR Delver without Swiftspears. Works quite well, just the 2 Tropical Island for Mandrills feel like bad Basics for a blue/red Mandrills. I would also NOT recommend buying into UR Delver right now unless you need Volcanics anyway. I am not trying to say that deck is unplayable, it just made a Top 8 at some big Japan Eternal Event. But it got nerfed while other decks like S&S or Miracles remained their level. Probe made potentially between 1-2 additional damage when drawn once, 2-5 when drawn twice. That can be a single Burn spell you did not cast or a whole Fireblast to finish of. Extremely important against Combo decks while racing, also very important while pushing forward against control decks to not run into Terminus next turn. Anyway everybody whos playing the deck please share your experience! Maybe its just a completely new list what the deck needs.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Preban Young Pyromancer was an amazing card in all UR Delver lists, it won soooo many games for me and was in ALL builds better than Stormchaser imo. Postban it is true, Ur Prowess is kind of dead or at least extremely nerfed and Young Pyromancer is more Tempo than Aggro so either some Burn heavy list with Delver splash and no Pyromancer or go full Grixis Delver, even if B is only for Gurmag Angler and black sideboard cards.

I have been testing the deck non stop since the bannings and it just saddens me inside that Prowess got nerfed. It was my favorite deck of all time (Im playing since 2009), I kind of realize now how people felt when Survival of the Fittest got banned. Probe was just such a gamebreaker for this deck. There could be a potential Ur Delver list if we get either a blue or red Gurmag Angler/Hooting Mandrills or just a little faster Reveler. Right now the deck doesnt really has a home. I am currently on an URg build which is splashing for Hooting Mandrills, the rest is classical UR Delver without Swiftspears. Works quite well, just the 2 Tropical Island for Mandrills feel like bad Basics for a blue/red Mandrills. I would also NOT recommend buying into UR Delver right now unless you need Volcanics anyway. I am not trying to say that deck is unplayable, it just made a Top 8 at some big Japan Eternal Event. But it got nerfed while other decks like S&S or Miracles remained their level. Probe made potentially between 1-2 additional damage when drawn once, 2-5 when drawn twice. That can be a single Burn spell you did not cast or a whole Fireblast to finish of. Extremely important against Combo decks while racing, also very important while pushing forward against control decks to not run into Terminus next turn. Anyway everybody whos playing the deck please share your experience! Maybe its just a completely new list what the deck needs.

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I disagree. I don't think the deck lost much. 1-2 points of extra damage from Probe is relevant, but it's minor. The fact that DRS is gone feels like a much bigger deal.

I do think Grixis for Gurmag Angler and better sideboard options is just better for a Young Pyro list, but I think a hyper aggressive UR build is still very good as well.

My Sligh list roasts the current metagame really hard... I just haven't had many opportunities to play lately.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I disagree. I don't think the deck lost much. 1-2 points of extra damage from Probe is relevant, but it's minor. The fact that DRS is gone feels like a much bigger deal.

I do think Grixis for Gurmag Angler and better sideboard options is just better for a Young Pyro list, but I think a hyper aggressive UR build is still very good as well.

My Sligh list roasts the current metagame really hard... I just haven't had many opportunities to play lately.

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What does the Goblins matchup look like? I don't recall from so long ago how the matchup aligns.

I kinda wonder - what is the decisive reason not to play mainboard Surgical instead of lost Probe? Lack of redraw ability is obvious drawback, but in other dimensions it works effectively the same - you have perfect information about opponent's plans and abilities, you trigger prowress for free and more importantly you can deal with threats that tend to kill you g1, like wastelock, Dark Depths, Griselbrand and many others for which you usually side Surgical in either way.
Excuse me if this is laughable argument, I'm not playing the deck myself but a friend of mine does and I started to think about it as I'm quite used to crash him with Lands ;)

It's not a bad way to play it. I remember watching Jacob Kory pilot a UR Delver with maindeck Surgicals to what was at least a top 4 at an scg event several years ago.

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Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

What does the Goblins matchup look like? I don't recall from so long ago how the matchup aligns.

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The deck pretty much crushes Goblins. I mean, I've lost games to Goblins before when I get stuck on a one-lander, don't get me wrong, but when the deck works as intended, it demolishes Goblins. Too much effecient removal and threats. It's like a better version of Zoo. 4 Forked Bolt does a number on decks like Goblins, D&T, Elves, etc.

The biggest drawback is the combo matchups in game one since the FoW's are in the sideboard, but the deck does a good job of racing S&T in game one, and the other combo matchups seem to be much less represented right now. Overall the S&T matchup is fine. My list feels very well positioned in the current metagame.

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Originally Posted by Wiktul

I kinda wonder - what is the decisive reason not to play mainboard Surgical instead of lost Probe? Lack of redraw ability is obvious drawback, but in other dimensions it works effectively the same - you have perfect information about opponent's plans and abilities, you trigger prowress for free and more importantly you can deal with threats that tend to kill you g1, like wastelock, Dark Depths, Griselbrand and many others for which you usually side Surgical in either way.
Excuse me if this is laughable argument, I'm not playing the deck myself but a friend of mine does and I started to think about it as I'm quite used to crash him with Lands ;)

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I would say that if you wanted to replace probe with another phyrexian mana card then mutagenic growth is better for this deck mainboard as it fits in better with your core strategy of just burning people down before they can stabilise. On a prowess creature mutagenic becomes +3/+3 for nothing but also good on delver, TNN or even just a peezy token.

Hello, anybody here still playing UR Delver/Burn/Prowess?? Did the deck just die or are people not interested in it anymore? Since UR is the only deck I own in Legacy I am still playing and grinding the deck non stop. I think while cards like Swiftspear and Stormchaser got weakened by the bannings, playing the deck like a classical Tempo list does work really well. The main core of Ur still presents a lot of high valuable cards in Legacy which can be used effectively even in the postban meta. Not a Tier 1 deck for sure, but a true Delver deck which can always perform on the highest level with nuts draws and Brainstorm backup. For my experience and testing the Ur Delver tempo list comes down to a couple of core cards which I want to mention:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
1-3 True-Name Nemesis
1-3 Grim Lavamancer
0-2 Bedlam Reveler
0-2 Snapcaster Mage

These are the overall hottest creatures which UR has to offer. The main creatures for the deck are 4 Delver and 4 Pyromancer which are the reason to actually play the deck. The second best creatures are Lavamancer and TNN. While both should be played and included somehow it is definitely preference and meta depending how many of those you want to play. The last creatures to mention are Reveler and Snapcaster. Reveler can be quite dead when drawn early but presents a HUGE card boost later, especially when played in grindier games vs. Miracles or Grixis Control. Also Reveler still works good with Lavamancer since both present power in different matchups. Lavamancer wins very much alone vs. D&T or Elves (theoretical speaking) in which Reveler can be very weak. Against Miracles on the other hand Lavamancer does not find good target except the player in which Reveler is practically Ancestral Recall + a body. Snapcaster is a card which is the best way used in a reactive way which means in a proactive Delver deck such as Grixis Delver or Ur Delver it does not really shine. You can build your deck around it by giving it more specific targets such as Spell Snare, Stifle, Vapor Snag or something else. Still Snapcaster feels a little clunky and the weakest in an aggressive Delver shell which should be pure Tempo. The next cards are pretty much written in stone, cantrips, counter spells and burn spells. The core:

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt

The flex spots:

0-2 Spell Pierce
0-2 Spell Snare
0-4 Stifle
0-2 Forked Bolt
0-4 Chain Lightning
0-2 Price of Progress
0-1 Fireblast
0-4 Wasteland

2 Preordain feels like the right number postban also in Grixis Delver so far, the same goes with 2 Spell Pierce in the typical tempo lists. The next cards decide how aggressive your tempo list should look like and how many removal spells you want to play. I think when it comes to removal 5 are minimum (4 Bolt, 1 Forked Bolt) and 8 are maximum (4 Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning for example). Since Ur does not have access to B like Grixis Delver which fills nowadays flex spots with discard spells or something like Bitterblossom, the route Ur must take is a burn heavier plan to stand out as an archetype for itself. When it comes to Wasteland vs. Price of Progress you need to consider if you want to play more "aggro" or more tempo. Wasteland makes Delver, Daze and Spell Pierce much better while Price of Progress wins certain matchups and can lead with Snapcaster and Lavamancer to a counter-burn list. Also splitting those in 2/2 can be a healthy mix since you can find them with Brainstorm and Co. whenever you need them. This is all preference and also meta calling. Also to mention are Spell Snare and Stifle. Spell Snare is a card which I am not really sure against what it truly shines. Against creature decks you should prefer burn spells and against mirrors and control decks Spell Snare can be dead when drawn at the wrong time. Stifle is a card which does not really belong in Ur Delver for my understanding because Ur Delver is a very proactive Delver deck. The reason Canadian can play Stifle this good is that Mongoose, Mandrills, Goyf and TNN are all cards which are better a little later in the game than in the very first turns. Ur Delver can be played more aggressively so Stifle does not really shine while playing Delver and Pyromancer. The rest of the core cards are lands which should definitely include a playset of Scalding Tarn, at least 2 Volcanic Islands and a minimum of 1 basic of each color.

The other version of UR with Monastery Swiftspear also exists which I didn't mention here. This post is more about the cards you use for the non Prowess Ur Delver deck which is more Tempo orientated and a 2 color Grixis Delver deck. So I hope people are still motivated in playing the deck and some people learned something from this post who do not have the time to grind every day like me. I'll keep you guys updated, peace out!

I still enjoy the deck and am playing the swiftspear variant with 4 preordains, 2 ponder, 4 chain lightning, 2 forked bolt and a bunch of value 1-ofs.

Not been able to play at a tournament for a while tho due to new baby but in practice games with a friend the deck can still perform and I still just like the aggro style of it. I have considered trying the pyro version you mention but not got round to it yet.

Sean Brown highlights the UR Delver deck that made top 4 in Paris in his recent article. He mainly covers the issue of YP (being proactive) and Stifle (being reactive) but also suggests his own build at the end of the article. Generally I would say this is a more controlish version:

https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...racuse-classic

One card that has been utilized in the past by RUG Delver might also fit: MD Winter Orb-basically a cheaper Back to Basics, considering one can untap a land a turn and play/replay a land (bounced by Daze). I'd be more sold on it than singleton Preordain/Chart a Course, although I see the overall spell count dropping.

I think it's odd that no one is talking about risk factor for this deck, i can really see it replacing bedlam and such.

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Originally Posted by aiescream

I think it's odd that no one is talking about risk factor for this deck, i can really see it replacing bedlam and such.

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These kind of cards are usually traps: Letting your opponent chose what's best for him is not ideal because he knows what's in his interest and, while you might think either choice is fine, one is always worse than the other. That not to say the card can't be powerful but It can come to blow right back in your face.

The card already existed in the form of Browbeat anyway and it has been tested already (this is just a better version of the same card). That said, jump start might make it more playable than the last version and it can't be worse than bedlam since the probe ban really made that card hard to cast for this deck. 1 ofs are usually fine with so many cantrips in legacy.

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Originally Posted by aiescream

I think it's odd that no one is talking about risk factor for this deck, i can really see it replacing bedlam and such.

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I don't really see it being good enough. No one should every really let you draw the cards, so it's 4 damage for 3 mana, which is not cost effective. Jumpstart is not that great really as it offers no card advantage and you basically just used 2 cards and 6 mana to do 8 damage. Why run this when you could do 5 damage for 1 card and 1 mana with thunderous wrath?

Thanks for your thoughts, maybe I should have elaborated why I think this card is good enough to play 2 of in the 75.

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Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc

These kind of cards are usually traps: Letting your opponent chose what's best for him is not ideal because he knows what's in his interest and, while you might think either choice is fine, one is always worse than the other. That not to say the card can't be powerful but It can come to blow right back in your face.

The card already existed in the form of Browbeat anyway and it has been tested already (this is just a better version of the same card). That said, jump start might make it more playable than the last version and it can't be worse than bedlam since the probe ban really made that card hard to cast for this deck. 1 ofs are usually fine with so many cantrips in legacy.

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It's fair and natural to compare browbeat and Risk factor, but for me the combination of jump start AND it being instant speed make it way better than browbeat. Being able to play it end of opponent turn then untap and cast it if needed with the natural draw is very efficient.

You're right with your first point, and you will almost always get the worst choice.
But if you want to draw it's because you have run out of gas and want to find the last damage for finishing off opp, then risk factor just turn out to be 4 damage and turning your next land drop into 4 more damage, i think it's still a very good deal.
If you want to deal damage drawing cards in UR usually get you burning cards, so it's still a sweet deal anyway.

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Originally Posted by Smuggo

I don't really see it being good enough. No one should every really let you draw the cards, so it's 4 damage for 3 mana, which is not cost effective. Jumpstart is not that great really as it offers no card advantage and you basically just used 2 cards and 6 mana to do 8 damage. Why run this when you could do 5 damage for 1 card and 1 mana with thunderous wrath?

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Here again i think what's people missing the most is that risk factor is instant speed so 3 mana is kinda fine. to do 8 damage with thunderous wrath you have to draw an other burn spell, with risk factor you can still chose to play the burn spell and wait for the next land(or daze) draw to jump start it.

Let's compare risk factor with its at the moment contender,
-Bedlam reveler: can only play it when you have run out of gas and you wont be able to hold on counter effects, plus you have to play it during your turn;
-Thunderous wrath: you'll end up doing more damage with risk factor, the only upside is that you can target creature and planeswalker with it;
-Fireblast: same upside than above, and it's an all-in strategy.

But that only my 2 cents, and since I don't have access to a large scene nor MTGO, i just wanted to have your opinion.

There is fourth option though which is to run an additional PoP.

Hello folks, with this post I want to share my updated results and thoughts about UR Delver (tempo version). I had my weekly Legacy on tuesday in my LGS and went 5:0 with it, the list:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
3 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
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3 Surgical Extraction
2 Price of Progress
2 Pyroblast
1 Flusterstorm
2 Vapor Snag
2 Abrade
1 Sudden Demise
1 Sulfuric Vortex
1 Pithing Needle


Tournament report:

First round against Infect, 2-1:
Game 1 he was on the play and killed me turn 3. I didn't know what I was against and kept a hand with almost no interaction, it was like 3 creatures, 2 lands, 1 Daze and a Ponder I think. Game 2 and 3 were decided by very strong hands by my side with a lot of counter magic, 2 Wastelands each game and removal spells. Boarding was -1 TNN -2 Preordain -2 Chain +2 Pyroblast +1 Flusterstorm +2 Abrade. The point with Preordain is that you can not waist to many mana on cantrips in your turn because Infect is very very fast and normally my deck is allready in good shape against it. Having at least 1 free land to interact with is very necessary so 8 cantrips are fine, you never want to be tapped out. Also Abrade destroys Nexus as an artifact removal which even works when he pumps, so Abrade is better than Chain and it is Instant.

Second round against Grixis Control, 2-0:
I was on the play with a glorious start of Delver, Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Ponder and a T4 Pyromancer protected by another FoW and a Bolt for his Strix. Second game I didn't play anything T1 to counter his expected T2 Hymn to Tourach. I play a YP T2 which he Pushes and cast a Strix while I let everything resolve to cast a TNN T3. I have the one Force of Will an another Daze in hand to protect myself from Toxic Deluge and Snapcaster and find 2 Lightning Bolts to finish him off. Even a Liliana, the Last Hope was in play which didn't work out for him. Boarding was -4 Chain -1 FoW +2 Pyroblast +1 Flusterstorm +1 Sulfuric Vortex +1 Needle.

Third round against Burn, 2-0:
Both games were literally decided by a flipped Delver, I just bet him down while killing his creatures and countering the Bolts which targeted Delver. If he wouldn't have drawn that many creatures both games would have been much closer because I was a little light on counter spells and heavy on removal. I boarded. -3 Chain +1 Fluster +2 Abrade. The reason for cutting Chain is I don't want him to copy it and giving my opponent an additional spell so Abrade works better imho.

Fourth round against Lands, 2-1:
Game 1 I was on the draw with a medicore hand and he just Wasteland and Ghost Quarter me to death. Game 2 and 3 I had an early Delver while he couldn't find removal for it. I remember Wastelanding Maze of Ith and Forced a Crop Rotation and another Gamble which were enough to close it out. Game 3 he also had a very bad hand, T3 he gets himself a Loam by Gamble which I Surgical. His exploration also came a little late while I had a YP, 1 or 2 tokens and a Lavamancer which grinded it out. I also remember finding PoP when he drew a Tabernacle but the game was allready over in that stage because I had mana for Lavamancer and tokens or just the PoP. Boarding was -4 Chain -4 Daze +3 Surgical +2 PoP +2 Snag +1 Needle.

Fifth round against Grixis Control, 2-0:
Game 1 was extremely long and grindy, he practically had every answer for any threat I had while I was a short on counter spells. He stabilised when he had around 12 or 13 life while I managed to resolve a TNN. We were both a little flooded, I drew Brainstorm from the top into 2 Chain Lighting and 1 Bolt which closed it out in 2 turns lol. He Brainstormed twice with Jace and didnt find any answers. Game 2 was decided by resolving Sulfuric Vortex Turn 3. He said to me he has a single Hydroblast which hes looking for but never found, he also said he boarded out Jace because my deck was to fast (which I think is a mistake to board out, especially on the play). I managed to get a late Delver which traded with an even later Snapcaster into KComman or something but Vortex was just pressing charges here. Same board as before.


So while I feel good about going 5-0 I honestly have to say I was pretty lucky and draw insane hands that day at some point. I think UR Delver is probably the most inconsistent Delver deck because of its limitation of being 2 colored. The deck comes down to 3 different play lines which I try to simplify:
1. Your best line is the Canadian tempo play. T1 Delver followed up by Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce and Lightning Bolt. This is the strongest play you can have with the build. You play less counter spells compared to Canadian which makes it harder to protect your queen. Because of that you have more burn spells which represents 1 turn of attacking and also maybe YP and Lavamancer which have a little more reach. Canadian is just the king in that route but its quite possible with that deck.
2. Your second best line is playing Pyromancer T2 with either a Force of Will or 2 Daze in hand. You allready generate a token by countering your opponents removal and follow with more tokens in T3. Then you can start Wastelanding which would increase you chance by winning with another Spell Pierce or Daze. Also as long as Pyromancer is on the battlefield I try to play the deck as aggressive as possible since you need to generate full value. So Bolt to the face can be a good play in that spot.
3. The third line is just to trade resources in T1-2 and to play TNN T3. If you play against blue you have to make sure to have a counter backup while playing TNN.

Any other scenario is actually not that great for Ur Delver. I think Ur Delver is right now very limited in its cards and also in its ceiling. By limited I don't mean bad, Ur Delver is more of a "okay/decent against the field" deck. You don't really have a very positive matchup but you don't really have to many bad ones either (worst case is Prison and Chalice). The point is that Ur Delver (no matter which version, Prowess or midrange) has to be played quite greedy. Turn 1 Delver is and will always be a house against any deck, so don't be shy to play it when being on the play. Also Force of Will is actually a very good in the deck because it is a hard counter and an excellent tempo card. Never board out all 4, Id say a minimum of 2 should be in there postboard unless you play against something like Cavern of Souls. Also if your hand does not really do anything except cantripping and random counter spells, it is probably not good. I think even having a hand full of counter spells against a deck like storm can be wrong. You definitely need a clock, otherwise you just trade resources but Time Walk yourself. In comparison to Grixis Delver Ur lacks good sideboard cards AND Gurmag Angler. Angler is an insane card for any tempo or blue midrange deck because in this case you can just trade a couple of resources because what grows the GY makes Gurmag Angler happy. You dont really have this in Ur so trading needs to happen while pressuring your opponent on the board. Canadian has this HUGE advantage of Nimble Mongoose which has shroud and is cc1. So once Mongoose resolves its extremely difficult to get rid of and Canadian does its Stifle and counter plan as its best. Ur Delver does not even have a second cc1 creature except for Lavamancer but Lavamancer is not a card which is pressuring right at the beginning, its more of a removal machine with a solid ping every round but also very easy to remove. UR Delver only shines when it has its lines or the right cards. Every game I played was decided sometimes by a single counter spells, once your opponent stabilise its hard to come back with Ur if your opponent is not in burn range. Grixis just has Gurmag Angler which makes the protect the queen plan much more easy because you leave your counterspells for the big boss and Canadian can pressure much more easy because Mongoose is also cc1 and waay harder to remove. So at the end with good hands and a little luck UR Delver is a good deck but its inconsistency and the missing of a red/blue delve creature or something like Mongoose is pretty lackluster. Right now I keep playing the deck but I could imagine to build it even more midrange and to play a full playset of TNN to make it better vs. Control and fair decks while keeping Delver against combo.

Thats it, hope you enjoy reading.

After a long hiatus from legacy i'm back in action guys.
I' ve red the discussion about Risk Factor and i'm inclined to agree on it beeing to clunky but there are several lists on mtgo that seem to do well with 2-3 copies in the main. However, i don't like Stormchaser Mage. It was mediocre even with Probe being legal but now it seems just really really bad and slow.

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

After a long hiatus from legacy i'm back in action guys.
I' ve red the discussion about Risk Factor and i'm inclined to agree on it beeing to clunky but there are several lists on mtgo that seem to do well with 2-3 copies in the main. However, i don't like Stormchaser Mage. It was mediocre even with Probe being legal but now it seems just really really bad and slow.

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I dont see how Risk Factor is going to do anything. I mean first of all it costs 3 mana, thats a lot for Legacy. If my opponent is on 4 life you will get to draw 3 cards but how good is drawing 3 cards for 3 mana? With this logic every Grixis list should play Painful Truths and this is not the case. If my opponent is on lets say 12 life he is probably willing to take 4 damage, if you want to flashback it costs 3 mana again + discarding a card which is creating card disadvantage. I think combo would be willing to take damage all the time and you are tapped out (!) which is very bad. Even playing it End of Turn would be a Time Walk against yourself if you need to respond to a single spell with a Brainstorm before and not to get to play Risk Factor, that would mean itll rot on your hand forever.

I think in Burn the card is actually legit because there is no card manipulation and Burn makes sure your opponent IS actually all the time on 4-5 life so either Browbeat or Risk Factor will add something to your deck. But in a deck with Brainstorm and Force of Will the card just looks very very bad.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I dont see how Risk Factor is going to do anything. I mean first of all it costs 3 mana, thats a lot for Legacy. If my opponent is on 4 life you will get to draw 3 cards but how good is drawing 3 cards for 3 mana? With this logic every Grixis list should play Painful Truths and this is not the case. If my opponent is on lets say 12 life he is probably willing to take 4 damage, if you want to flashback it costs 3 mana again + discarding a card which is creating card disadvantage. I think combo would be willing to take damage all the time and you are tapped out (!) which is very bad. Even playing it End of Turn would be a Time Walk against yourself if you need to respond to a single spell with a Brainstorm before and not to get to play Risk Factor, that would mean itll rot on your hand forever.

I think in Burn the card is actually legit because there is no card manipulation and Burn makes sure your opponent IS actually all the time on 4-5 life so either Browbeat or Risk Factor will add something to your deck. But in a deck with Brainstorm and Force of Will the card just looks very very bad.

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Those were my first thoughts too. But hey that means those MTGO lists managed to go 5-0 DESPITE running Risk Factor so the deck must be really good again :laugh:

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

Those were my first thoughts too. But hey that means those MTGO lists managed to go 5-0 DESPITE running Risk Factor so the deck must be really good again :laugh:

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UR Delvers spot right now is really hit or miss. With a little luck you can definitely can go 5-0 or further. Delver, Wasteland, Daze and a bunch of Burn spells ALWAYS work. But its not nearly as consistent how it used to be. How many 5-0 has there been since the bannings? Just a couple but not really consistently in their results. Also I see an advantage of Risk Factor or Browbeat if your opponent does not see it coming, suprise youre dead or let me draw 3 cards. Not to strong but maybe gives your opponent and akward position if its the first time you cast it.

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Originally Posted by Jonny Tempel

Those were my first thoughts too. But hey that means those MTGO lists managed to go 5-0 DESPITE running Risk Factor so the deck must be really good again :laugh:

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Ok some discussions regarding Risk Factor.
I have compiled a list of risk factor "list" from recent tournaments (30pax+) which produced good results:
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20412&d=333710&f=LE
https://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=20412&d=333698&f=LE
https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/201516/show/
https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/205471/show/
https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/208750/show/
https://deck.hareruyamtg.com/en/deck/193581/show/

Looking at them we can see that they drive the gameplay in the same "Burn" orientated style.
They all contain Monestery swiftspears+Stormchasers for creatures & full 8xbolt+ chain lightnings with either 1xfork or fireblast for extra reach.
This means that most of the time the gameplay comes down to burning the opponent asap & usually u get stuck at the last few points of damage which is where our discussion will begin.

What if we look at risk factor from another angle, something u cast for 3mana that if resolves becomes 4damage+1flashback use from gy. If it gets countered it's 1counterspell off opponent's hand and 1flashback use from gy.
Towards the last few turns where we are pushing damage through and opponent starts to stablize, every card we draw becomes that much important, risk factor increases that chance by providing the flashback use which basically trades a useless card (eg.land /delver/daze/fow/even swiftspear which might not be able to get through a blocker). It gives u the option to trade that useless card for 4dmg or Ancestral recall at instant speed. Adding to that, 1additional flashback use might equate to 1pt of dmg for each prowess creature u have on board, and that might mean something.

Risk factor seems to be a card that might suit burn/aggro tempo style play, acting as more of a all in "fireblast" u kinda card. As for list that runs 4xYP + 2or3x TNN, it does not seem effective enough as it does not contribute to the boardstate tempo style of play where u try to temporarily establish a pseudo board dominance for couple of turns to hit in for damage. But until someone really test it extensively, who knows, it might be useful for some reasons.

And by the way, not sure why these list plays 17lands(even down to 15) which is less than what we play for the usual UR delver list, so draw more fuel?
Feel free to comment, lets make UR delver great again.:laugh:

Saw 2 UR delver deck made the top 24 at Eternal weekend? Anyone have those list?

this is I think a very good list for everybody who still doesnt know where to go with UR:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28928&iddeck=239456

I personally don't like Stifle. Stifle is such a tempo card and UR does not always play tempo, often we are more of a midrange deck and Stifle gets very weak. Also the single Spell Snare feels akward but can be good with Snapcaster, so I see it working as a 1 of in this list. In the board there is Winter Orb which is definitely okay in general but I would not play it in a deck with literally 4 (!!) cc3 drops. You can blow out yourself if you draw 1 Snapcaster and 1 TNN from the top. The rest looks solid.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

this is I think a very good list for everybody who still doesnt know where to go with UR:

http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=28928&iddeck=239456

I personally don't like Stifle. Stifle is such a tempo card and UR does not always play tempo, often we are more of a midrange deck and Stifle gets very weak. Also the single Spell Snare feels akward but can be good with Snapcaster, so I see it working as a 1 of in this list. In the board there is Winter Orb which is definitely okay in general but I would not play it in a deck with literally 4 (!!) cc3 drops. You can blow out yourself if you draw 1 Snapcaster and 1 TNN from the top. The rest looks solid.

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Both IamHANDSOME & I have been discussing about the differnt variants of UR delver for a couple of weeks now.
I think we looked at 4 different variants of UR delver, all of which are good in their respective meta.

1)The list IamHANDSOME posted from tcdecks.net, with the stifles/snaps & winter orb in sb. This list basically looks for the RUG opening with mana denial plan, however we find that as most decks runs a more stable manabase now, it will be difficult to disrupt them. Also UR delver threats are weaker than RUG, we do not have sticky threats like nimble mongoose or cheap threats like hooting mandrils. However i find that this version does work well against some non-blue decks that plays heavy cmc cards.

2)The midrange version running 3xTNN with either a bedlam reveler & 2wastelands. This would play more midrange where the early game is basically bolting (combination of 8bolt effects Bolt/Chain/Forked) the board and keeping a stable manabase and put down a TNN or reveler and play protect the queen. You can also choose cryptic serpent for more tempo & pressure, but you will lose out against decks like Miracles for eg. with their STP effects, while reveler gives you an Ancestral recall to refuel. After our discussion, we think that if you want to go using cryptic serpent, use 4wasteland for the tempo advantage against combo decks like storm/ reanimator.

3)The explosive version which runs 4xthoughtscour 3xstifle alongside 2xreveler & 2xcryptic serpent and 4delver/4YP/1TNN. We think that this deck could be really explosive when it does work, but it is more hit and misses. If someone has experience on this deck, please feel free to share. I could not find much data on this version.

4)The newest "burn" list, which focus on running 4xswiftspear/3xstormchaser/3xRisk factor, we have not discuss or test much on this deck, but could be really good against control decks as it plays quick cheap threats and have better reach. Will probably update again in future.

I would like to give credits to IamHANDSOME for the above discussion to which he has contributed much of his knowledge.
Cheers

Does we have discord channel ? With printing risk factor I wanna give UR delver a chanse. Looking for discussion with active players.

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Originally Posted by Sunwardelishes

Does we have discord channel ? With printing risk factor I wanna give UR delver a chanse. Looking for discussion with active players.

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Got this one in my discord list: https://discord.gg/PxAzw8V

Might give the risk factor plan a try in some casual testing since it's not an expensive change for me to make, though with snaps getting yet another reprint I'm also tempted to try that route though suspect it will be too slow to really make enough impact.

I tested a couple of games vs. Ur Delver with Risk Factor, I was playing UR as a tempo shell and he was playing the Prowess Burn version with 2 Risk Factor. So the card was imho the worst draw he could possibly get. The mirror is very much about removing your opponents creatures and stabilising your threats. Until turn 5 or 6 there was not a single damage being dealt to anybody so any Risk Factor was just a 3 mana spell with 4 damage to my head. He casted it twice in later stages and I always took the damage, if he had a removal instead for my YP or Delver this would have been way better. If you want to go straight to your opponents face Price of Progress is just a much much better card and for all the rest cantrips are doing a great job allready. Risk Factor just feels so underwhelming unless your opponent is on 4 life and then you get to draw instead of killing and if you are tapped out since it costs 3 mana and your opponent has lethal damage it is just akward to have and to play.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I tested a couple of games vs. Ur Delver with Risk Factor, I was playing UR as a tempo shell and he was playing the Prowess Burn version with 2 Risk Factor. So the card was imho the worst draw he could possibly get. The mirror is very much about removing your opponents creatures and stabilising your threats. Until turn 5 or 6 there was not a single damage being dealt to anybody so any Risk Factor was just a 3 mana spell with 4 damage to my head. He casted it twice in later stages and I always took the damage, if he had a removal instead for my YP or Delver this would have been way better. If you want to go straight to your opponents face Price of Progress is just a much much better card and for all the rest cantrips are doing a great job allready. Risk Factor just feels so underwhelming unless your opponent is on 4 life and then you get to draw instead of killing and if you are tapped out since it costs 3 mana and your opponent has lethal damage it is just akward to have and to play.

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I've done six or seven leagues with a Risk Factor list. The equity in the card comes from the Jump-Start. You would never play a 3 mana deal 4, but, if you can discard a misty rainforest to cast a 3 mana deal 4 it starts to look at lot more appealing.

That being said, I'm still not sold.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

I tested a couple of games vs. Ur Delver with Risk Factor, I was playing UR as a tempo shell and he was playing the Prowess Burn version with 2 Risk Factor. So the card was imho the worst draw he could possibly get. The mirror is very much about removing your opponents creatures and stabilising your threats. Until turn 5 or 6 there was not a single damage being dealt to anybody so any Risk Factor was just a 3 mana spell with 4 damage to my head. He casted it twice in later stages and I always took the damage, if he had a removal instead for my YP or Delver this would have been way better. If you want to go straight to your opponents face Price of Progress is just a much much better card and for all the rest cantrips are doing a great job allready. Risk Factor just feels so underwhelming unless your opponent is on 4 life and then you get to draw instead of killing and if you are tapped out since it costs 3 mana and your opponent has lethal damage it is just akward to have and to play.

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Hey bro, thank you for the testing on the new Prowess burn version. I have proxied up the version with 3risk factor + 4swiftspear+ 3stormchasers against my UB shadow friend. I think it is difficult for the prowess version to get any creature to stick on the board against any deck with decent removal (push/dismember/STP etc), and if i want to protect the board, i will need to have open mana for pierce or fight with daze which is another turn where risk factor is dead card in hand. Also getting wastelanded by opponent does not help much. I find too few chance where I be having 3mana open at end of opponent turn to burn him.

In general I think risk factor with the jumpstart mechanic is a great way to translate dead draws into damage late in the game. However in a deck like UR delver where it is really difficult getting to 3lands and using all of them for 1spell, it may not be an ideal home. I really hope one of the people who manages to get success results or top8 would enlighten us on the its use or maybe I am getting the playstyle wrong.

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Originally Posted by Blacksummer

Hey bro, thank you for the testing on the new Prowess burn version. I have proxied up the version with 3risk factor + 4swiftspear+ 3stormchasers against my UB shadow friend. I think it is difficult for the prowess version to get any creature to stick on the board against any deck with decent removal (push/dismember/STP etc), and if i want to protect the board, i will need to have open mana for pierce or fight with daze which is another turn where risk factor is dead card in hand. Also getting wastelanded by opponent does not help much. I find too few chance where I be having 3mana open at end of opponent turn to burn him.

In general I think risk factor with the jumpstart mechanic is a great way to translate dead draws into damage late in the game. However in a deck like UR delver where it is really difficult getting to 3lands and using all of them for 1spell, it may not be an ideal home. I really hope one of the people who manages to get success results or top8 would enlighten us on the its use or maybe I am getting the playstyle wrong.

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Just an update on further playtesting using the prowess burn version. This time, I tried it against Miracles & Maverick, the creatures does not stick well, but they get the job done enough that the rest of the burn is sufficient to drop opponent to 0. Again I find it difficult to get to 3mana for risk factor, most of the damage was done via prowess triggers & burn, while risk factor would usually be a win-more card, which most of the time exquisite firecraft would have done the job as well. Just a short description of playtest below:

Went 3-0 against miracles & 1-0 against Maverick

-Highlights against Miracles
1)Delver flips real easily off 30+spells deck, together with prowess creatures+ chain lightning managed to chip opponent down to under 9life, opponent has only 1 STPs throughout the game which was not enough. Brainstorms into POP which dealt 2damage off tundra and attacked in with 2 prowess creature which drops opponent to 1life and unable to fow on lightning bolt next turn.

2)Again Delver flips real easy off the top, able to chip opponent down to under 12life, puts soulscar onto board to which opponent terminus. Opponent's fetchlands & stormchaser onto board afterwards with triggers prowess off cantrip into bolt putting opponent down to 3life, opponent slams counterbalance which resolves. Stormchaser gets STP next turn and cast risk factor which drew 3cards into more gas and opponent snap plows own creature putting him up to 2life. Opponent resolves Jace which fate sealed me. Jumpstarts riskfactor next turn drawing more cantrips which got counterbalance countrered. Opponent continues fate seal to which I draw POP off the top, checks counterbalance using cantrip, cast POP to which opponent brainstorms and finds no 2cmc, killing opponent with tundra onboard.

-Highlights against Maverick
1)Loss against maverick after sticking 3 delvers in play and dropping opponent to under 10. Opponent manages to resolve sanctum prelate on1 and puts scryb ranger into play. Goes on to equip SOFI for the win

1)Mulled to 6 forgots to scry (was too tired then), sticks delver and soulscar onto board and hitting opponent to 9 while bolting opponent's scryb ranger leaving him with 2x noble heirach on board, opponent gsz for 2 which I let resolves holding 2bolt and brainstorm in hand knowing it will be ooze. Double bolts EOT leaving opponent at 3 and have to use ooze to get to 4life before my turn as I would have priority if I drew burn off the top. Draws land off the top and brainstorms into POP, proceeds to win the game with delver attack and POP.

In summary I kind of change my mind towards traditional slower UR delver running 3xTNN, in that it is too difficult to get a boardstate, TNN+lavamancer is great in fair creature matchups and YP is great against other tempo/control decks but they do not complement each other well, I would play Rug instead then, but Mongoose is just too slow. I will be going with the prowess burn plays for now until wotc decides to give us a 1mana U or R angler or something more resilient (a 1mana 2/2 Shroud/haste clout of dominus creature maybe requires island and/or mountain to be in play or sac? lol :laugh:)

I also want to give an update on my tempo/midrange list, thats the one one I'm playing and put up the best results so far:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Young Pyromancer
4 True-Name Nemesis
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
1 Forked Bolt
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

I was talking on page 35 about the play pattern and lines UR has to take and I actually feel very comfortable with this list. Since UR has no Gurmag Angler or Hooting Mandrills this trading resources works only if you slam something onto the board which is likely to stick there! So it has to be either YP with FoW backup or TNN so playing 4 TNN is fine in this list because it is very unlikely to be dealt with. I still play it only with 1 Island and 4 Volcanic but I could see putting a second Island for -1 Volcanic in it just to make sure this TNN hits the battlefield no matter what. Also 2 Grim Lavamancer feel very OP against matchups like Elves or D&T so I keep playing them, lets say WotC would print some new card which would be something like Bedlam Reveler but faster I could also see cutting Lavamancer and 1 TNN for those but until the situation in Legacy is like right now you face either control or combo and Delver was never so weak in the history of Legacy I just keep playing 4 TNN to stand a chance.

Delver is in a position right now with only 2 porpuses imho:
1. Its the best blue clock you can present turn 1 when playing against combo decks because you hit hard and can disrupt your opponent with counterspells, Wasteland and discard (if you play black).
2. There is this super strong tempo plan on the play by Delver, Wasteland and Daze which presents one of Legacys most powerful synergie and technologie.
Since the bannings you need Delver for exactly those 2 points. For the rest Delver is not really good anymore because you face a lot of decks now which play a high amount of removal and can just deal with Delver in such a easy way. Before decks had to deal with Shaman first and then Delver and since decks did not have so many removal spells Delver was a more resilient threat.

Also the meta feels extremely boring now with the new bannings for me personal. You cant imagine how omnipresent Hymn to Tourach is right now, a card which is soooo unfun to play against because your opponent does not even make a smart choice or decision, the cards are being discarded randomly and its always 2 for 1, just disgusting ^^ I personally feel insulted when people used to say exactly this about Gitaxian Probe but now play with 4 Hymn in their deck and smash it for a good luck 2 for 1. Anyway to face all this 10+ removal decks TNN is maybe right now the most important card to play in that deck. Even Young Pyromancer is very light on removal and all this Snapcaster back a removal, get Snapcaster back with KCommand is soooo insanely positioned and OP right now that you can not go through with normal creatures. Its just that UR Delver does not have anything better yet than YP so you need to max out YP anyway. But I really see why Grixis Delver lists cut it down to 2-3 or split it with Bitterblossom, because YP is not resilient anymore and super nerfed since Probe ban.

So TL; DR: 4 TNN helps against control A LOT, you can safe up your counter spells for that single Diabolic Edict or only for Terminus. Against combo you only need Delver or YP very early and pitch TNN to FoW. YP is a nerfed fair creature and like your third best creature UR has to offer, so until there are not better creatures printed you play it. Grim Lavamancer is to favor certain creature matchups for you. The rest is pretty standard. Price of Progress remains good but worse than preban so I still feel its a better sideboard than mainboard card.

greets and see yaa

The problem with running 4 TNN is that it costs 3 mana in a deck with only 18 lands, with 4 of them being Wasteland. Even Grixis Delver pre-ban with DRS didn't run that many copies.

It's no doubt good against Miracles, because they often don't expose themselves to Wasteland, and getting to 3 mana in that matchup is very likely, but 4 TNN is going to be way too clunky in almost every other matchup.

My 2 cents, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

The problem with running 4 TNN is that it costs 3 mana in a deck with only 18 lands, with 4 of them being Wasteland. Even Grixis Delver pre-ban with DRS didn't run that many copies.

It's no doubt good against Miracles, because they often don't expose themselves to Wasteland and getting to 3 mana in that matchup is very likely, but 4 TNN is going to be way too clunky in almost every other matchup.

My 2 cents, anyway.

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yes I know but I dont see how this deck stands a chance without 4 TNN against GControl and Miracles. I mean you can always pitch it to FoW if you have to many or shuffle them away. I recently lost against Canadian by drawing 3 copies of TNN and not having 3 mana but thats the risk I take because in Delver mirrors its more about whos on the play and on the draw. Ur Delver is just extremely limited in its options and not what it used to be this extremely fast aggro/tempo deck so if you dont have Underground Seas or Tropical Island you need to adapt the list by maximizing the best UR creatures out. I think Legacy in general became much much closer to Modern since the bannings then ever before. The amount of interaction is just on a much lower level and right now decks are like "you have good or bad matchups". Deathrite Shaman gave the meta this edge of you can make certain bad matchups still okay because of the way Shaman used to interact with your opponents GY. And in this environment Ur is this very linear and medicore built which is either heavy on burn spells or tries to maximizes on good cards while relying on a decent mana base. Grixis Delver has much better cards but their manabase is especially against Lands and Loam much worse so Ur can have the edge in those matchups.

I just play my Sligh list, which has basically been the same for ages. The metagame feels much more favorable to me now, with ANT actually being a winnable matchup again, no more DRS to accelerate other decks and give them a maindeck source of lifegain, and no more CounterTop lock to have to deal with.

I haven't played magic at all this year except for two times at the local shop this month, but I went 3-0 (first round bye) and 4-0 so far against tier decks, so it feels to me like the Sligh approach is really well positioned right now.

For reference, my matchups were Grixis Painter, UB Shadow, ANT, D&T, Miracles, and Infect.

EDIT: Despite not playing against Grixis Control yet (only 1 player at my shop was playing it), that matchup is a really good one for the Sligh approach. Turbo Depths is my worst matchup, though.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

I just play my Sligh list, which has basically been the same for ages. The metagame feels much more favorable to me now, with ANT actually being a winnable matchup again, no more DRS to accelerate other decks and give them a maindeck source of lifegain, and no more CounterTop lock to have to deal with.

I haven't played magic at all this year except for two times at the local shop this month, but I went 3-0 (first round bye) and 4-0 so far against tier decks, so it feels to me like the Sligh approach is really well positioned right now.

For reference, my matchups were Grixis Painter, UB Shadow, ANT, D&T, Miracles, and Infect.

EDIT: Despite not playing against Grixis Control yet (only 1 player at my shop was playing it), that matchup is a really good one for the Sligh approach. Turbo Depths is my worst matchup, though.

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Miracles did not loose anything by the bannings while Ur Delver/Sligh lost Probe so objectively speaking the 1-4 damage Probe did if it turned up are gone which is a clear disadvantage. And against Miracles I had often games which were about that last 2-3 damage and my opponent stabilized because my hand was empty. GControl how its designed right now does not need Shaman because what they will do is Push, Bolt, Snap Bolt, KCommand and get Strix or Snapcaster and will deal with every creature you have, before they played the deck not this grindy and more midrange like because of Shaman which we always Bolted. If you play 4 Daze and 4 FoW your likely to draw 2-3 of them, while they can actually play around Daze (on the play) which means FoW is practically the only card which prevents them of doing that. Also Hymn to Tourach is a pain for Ur, if you Daze it and your opponent has the FoW you wasted 3 cards for a single card and are likely to discard maybe the land you bounced making a comeback quite hard. Burn works only if they are in burn range but not when they are at 15 life. Also they play more basics which means PoP is also weakened in average of 2 damage at least. Painter will always be a good matchup for a Bolt deck since you can Bolt Painter and the combo does not work without it. Infect is also favorable if you are experienced with the deck since the amount of removal is there to deal with any creature in our turns. D&T is very draw depending, if you start with 2 Volcanics and 1 is Wastelanded while the other is Ported the matchup can be horrible. Ub Shadow is also favorable if you are heavy on Burn, this should be self explaining. ANT is only favorable if you draw a lot of counter spells. I played this matchup a lot and I can tell if you have 1 FoW and 2 Daze in hand they will let you discard your FoW while playing around Daze. If you have no counterspell in hand they sometimes go of turn 2 or 3 and you normally dont kill them before especially not without Probe.

I am actually not saying that the deck is bad, but I dont see it favorable against neither Miracles nor Grixis Control, should be slightly negative. Against most of the combo decks the fast version plays only 8 counterspells which are often not enough, so also Reanimator, ANT, S&S and such are slightly negative. Especially against S&S Probe showed you how to navigate and when to Ponder/Brainstorm which was also a deal against combo. Against the rest of the field I cant even say, the deck was always very very bad against Chalice of the Void or bigger fringe decks unless Price of Progress hits hard soooo I dont see how good the deck can be. But I mean one thing is true, that ability to outrace any deck is actually possible so I give it that point.

Been testing for quite a while now with Preordain as my second 4-of cantrip, relegating Ponder to a 2-of. I personally think that for an aggressive UR build, Preordain is straight up better than Ponder. I'm playing with 4 bolt, 4 chain, 2 forked, 2 PoP and being able to just scry my way towards more bolts seems to be a lot better than looking at 3 cards, often only seeing 1 cards I actually want, or shuffling. Interested in other's opinions on this, but for me I find I can much more consistently dig for damage cards using Preordain.

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Originally Posted by IamHANDSOME

Miracles did not loose anything by the bannings while Ur Delver/Sligh lost Probe so objectively speaking the 1-4 damage Probe did if it turned up are gone which is a clear disadvantage. And against Miracles I had often games which were about that last 2-3 damage and my opponent stabilized because my hand was empty. GControl how its designed right now does not need Shaman because what they will do is Push, Bolt, Snap Bolt, KCommand and get Strix or Snapcaster and will deal with every creature you have, before they played the deck not this grindy and more midrange like because of Shaman which we always Bolted. If you play 4 Daze and 4 FoW your likely to draw 2-3 of them, while they can actually play around Daze (on the play) which means FoW is practically the only card which prevents them of doing that. Also Hymn to Tourach is a pain for Ur, if you Daze it and your opponent has the FoW you wasted 3 cards for a single card and are likely to discard maybe the land you bounced making a comeback quite hard. Burn works only if they are in burn range but not when they are at 15 life. Also they play more basics which means PoP is also weakened in average of 2 damage at least. Painter will always be a good matchup for a Bolt deck since you can Bolt Painter and the combo does not work without it. Infect is also favorable if you are experienced with the deck since the amount of removal is there to deal with any creature in our turns. D&T is very draw depending, if you start with 2 Volcanics and 1 is Wastelanded while the other is Ported the matchup can be horrible. Ub Shadow is also favorable if you are heavy on Burn, this should be self explaining. ANT is only favorable if you draw a lot of counter spells. I played this matchup a lot and I can tell if you have 1 FoW and 2 Daze in hand they will let you discard your FoW while playing around Daze. If you have no counterspell in hand they sometimes go of turn 2 or 3 and you normally dont kill them before especially not without Probe.

I am actually not saying that the deck is bad, but I dont see it favorable against neither Miracles nor Grixis Control, should be slightly negative. Against most of the combo decks the fast version plays only 8 counterspells which are often not enough, so also Reanimator, ANT, S&S and such are slightly negative. Especially against S&S Probe showed you how to navigate and when to Ponder/Brainstorm which was also a deal against combo. Against the rest of the field I cant even say, the deck was always very very bad against Chalice of the Void or bigger fringe decks unless Price of Progress hits hard soooo I dont see how good the deck can be. But I mean one thing is true, that ability to outrace any deck is actually possible so I give it that point.

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Miracles did lose with bannings though... they lost Sensei's Divining Top. The Miracles matchup still isn't great, but not having to worry about the hard softlock of CounterTop makes the matchup significantly better than it was before.

I realize you are talking about them not losing anything in the most recent bannings, but losing Probe is honestly not as big of a deal for this deck as it was for ANT and Grixis Delver. You lose a couple of points of free damage, which matters, but not to the extent of major significance. Stormchaser wasn't a very good card in the first place, and Swiftspear is still a perfectly good and legitimate threat. The Miracles matchup will always come down to the last few points of damage because that's how the dynamic of that matchup shakes out. At least now, the threat of being locked out behind a Counterbalance is much less likely.

It's difficult for me to talk about matchups like Grixis Control in a vague way, because I play Sligh, not traditional UR Delver. I can totally understand why that matchup would be difficult for traditional UR Delver... you're far more dependent on creature damage, lack the density of one drops to overload their spot removal early game, and don't have the same burn density to close the game out. Hymn to Tourach is certainly problematic, but if they are attacking your hand, they aren't attacking your board... although this is less of an issue for my Sligh list, which dumps its hand more quickly. Basically, my Sligh version gives up game one percentages against combo decks to greatly improve my fair matchups, so decks like Grixis Control and D&T become great for me.

The Grixis Control deck, even with basics, is still going to regularly take 4 or more damage from a well-timed PoP.

ANT isn't a great matchup, but them losing Probe slows their deck down considerably. They can still turn 1 you, they can still turn 2 you, but it's much less consistent and much riskier for them. Sometimes they don't have it until turn 4. Racing them is a legitimate plan again. They also lost Cabal Therapy, so they can no longer destroy a double FoW hand with a single discard spell before going off. The matchup still isn't great, but it is considerably better now without them having Probe.

The Chalice matchups are only bad if they have/resolve Chalice on turn 1 or 2. They are easily beatable otherwise. I have 4 Smash to Smithereens in my sideboard, so I'm often able to beat Chalice postboard. My D&T opponent resolved two Chalices against me postboard, on turns 2 and 3, that I conveniently had two Smash's for (I Brainstorm'd into the second copy).

What I am saying is that my Sligh list is favorable against all of its fair matchups by giving away percentages against combo matchups in game one, including Miracles and Grixis Control. Since the combo matchups aren't actually that good for traditional UR Delver in game one anyway, I'm perfectly fine with making that tradeoff. I believe that doing this makes Sligh much better positioned in the current meta than traditional UR Delver is.

I think if you're going to go away from traditional UR Delver and into a more tempo-based approach, you would be better off going RUG or Grixis instead.