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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
Doorkeeper Thrull is way better than Torpor Orb. Being able to flash it in response to your opponents play is what makes it so amazing. Flash is why Dress Down is such a potent card and regularly ends up as a 2 of in controllish decks that dont play Dreadnought
Doorkeeper Thrull's also way better than Squire. But Dreadnought already wasn't playing either Torpor Orb or Squire (or Hushbringer). Blue's enablers are better. 4x Stifle 4x Dress Down already counter enemy ETB triggered abilities and pitch to Force.
Reasons to consider Doorkeeper might be if you go UW and want more copies of Dress Down but less copies of Stifle, e.g.:
-More hate for enemy creatures
-Ambush small attackers like Bowmasters
-Midrange deck without Wasteland/Daze/Stifle mana denial plan
-Avoid 2-for-1s with Stifle+Dreadnought
-White count for Solitude
White is a good color to be in because of the premium removal, planeswalkers, and board reset. You lack a secondary threat (probably can't afford to splash UUGG Uro) but could play a more controlling game with Dreadnought finisher and Scroll of Fate.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
It's pretty annoying looking up the release date of new phyrexia, I think it was May 2011 upon further review? They keep spamming February in these searches b/c of the All is One set... Anyways Dreadnought is still seeing play off the back of its end of year large event 2010 finishes. It's still showing up on top8 moving into Misstep clown format. So I do see what you're saying about size of events, but you're still in a legacy format that hasn't had a format-warping printing (like Snapcaster) - obviously Misstep was warping. It's just Goyf/CB running rampant the whole time, and people are still playing Nought. That's the point I'm making; at this time you will encounter Dreadnought routinely. It may not be as common as Merfolk or NO Bant, but it would not have been unexpected.
You had to plan accordingly - this is particularly important if your big idea is to enable hostile Noughts with your newly-released Torpor Orb.
New Phyrexia release: May 13, 2011
https://mtg.fandom.com/wiki/New_Phyrexia
Mental Misstep ban: Sep 20, 2011
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/fe...s-2011-09-20-0
Misstep era was May-Sept 2011.
Dreadstill was Tier 1 in 2010, but saw a huge dip in play by 2011. mtgtop8 2011 Dreadnought: https://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?f=LE&meta=61&a=85
Most 2011 Dreadnought results are before NPH. Stiflenought/Dreadstill already saw a decline in early 2011 leading up to NPH. I don't know why - I wasn't in the Dreadstill community - but it was already on the decline and not a DTB.
Mid Apr 2011 - mid Oct 2011 (bigger than the Misstep era): only 3 results.
1 links to Hive Mind (error). The others run 1 Dreadnought, like the SCG Seattle deck. They rely on Trinket Mage to find 1-of Dreadnought, so Torpor Orb is not enabling their 12/12s.
My memory from that era could be wrong, but the data shows it too. Stifle+Dreadnought disappeared during the Misstep era. There weren't opposing Dreadnoughts across the table.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Although it did top8, it's basically starting with a Blade deck -> abandoning white -> adding Nought stuff b/c it's cool I guess? Although it worked in this event, it was not good hybrid deckbuilding, but it was more StifleNought than anything else. That's a pretty fair deckname they labeled it with, even with one Dreadnought.
My point was that your Torpor Orb deck is not getting out-12/12ed by a deck with 1 Dreadnought. They produce max 1 Dreadnought and probably can't find it with Trinket Mage turned off.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Right, but it wasn't TombNought. The logical progression from Dreadnought decks doing well before Misstep is not jumping straight to Tomb. You stay with what works (Fetchlands), and add Mask.
^The list you put forward for red/Tomb Pyrotechnic Performer + Dreadnought has the same problems as a 2011 TombNought. We've discussed the mana issues and moving the advantage bar at 1 & 2 mana points...but on top of that, you're talking about doing this at a time when there has never been a higher chance of running into and turning on a hostile 12/12 strategy.
Yeah, the red list I proposed earlier was not good. It was a draft thought experiment and has obvious flaws you raised (note it was less than 60 cards, so there is room for advantage at 2 cmc or Mox/SSG acceleration).
Bg MaskNought was the first logical progression and saw the most competitive play. Turning on hostile 12/12s was rare, see above.
Tomb is a later progression from there & Hive Mind, seeing that skipping 1cmc helped.
I cannot find an old list to get an exact build, so I'm speaking from rough heuristics. The key difference in that meta was you could afford to play Chalice @ 1 and Dreadnought in the same deck, so you could run 6-8 Sol Lands + Mox and push the advantage bar on 2 cmc (unlike the red build). Normally you can't run Dreadnought and Chalice together. In my own words "nonbo". But the Misstep meta was hostile to 1 cmcs. Stifle+Dreadnought was not a favorable plan. If Dreadnought is the only 1 cmc in the deck and Mask cheats you around the CMC, then you could actually play Chalice and Dreadnought together. You could use Tomb/City to skip ahead on CMCs in a meta where you already want to avoid 1 cmc: dodging enemy Misstep, your own Chalice, and enemy CounterTop. It was never a better time to avoid 1 cmc.
It was not the most common version of MaskNought (i.e. you expect more Bg results). It was more of a Stompy-Mask hybrid, but it was a thing that was played and worked in that meta. That's all I claimed. It worked because you wanted to do things like skip 1 cmc, cut Stifle, and play 2cmc colorless enablers. Tomb helps that plan.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
You've misread. The point I make is that it's a big step to claim TombNought has ever been something we could point to as anything other than a flash in the pan or noncompetitive meme.
Only pointed to it as a flash in the pan. The original comment was an aside. Misstep era was introduced as the exception, not the rule.
It wasn't a reason to play TombNought now. No extrapolation. If you think otherwise, quote where I said so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Now despite the exceedingly poor understanding of Mask at that time, the point to take away is that you take Dreadnought with Fetchlands and add Mask to beat Misstep long before you would ever drop everything you knew that worked (see top8 finishes) to dabble with TombNought, because Mask solved the Misstep's cmc puzzle all by itself.
^As a Dreadstill player, there is no excuse for the paucity of discussion and experimentation with Mask in reaction to Misstep (as recorded in the deck history of the Dreadstill thread). I can understand quitting to Landstill/Standstill after Snapcaster, and I can understand the Standstill quitters after miracles was allowed to ruin the format for years...but man, what a waste of the last best time to play Dreadstill.
Why didn't the Dreadstill community experiment with it? Mask also has a good interaction with Fathom Seer (playable draw engine in those days).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
So when you talk about how TombNought was the best way to navigate the Misstep format, I'm not surprised that info we can locate does not support that assessment.
Never said that. Quote me where you think I did.
All I said was that A) Mask and B ) blue stompy were (separately) competitive ways to navigate the Misstep format. Results support both.
I said TombNought was a progression from those 2 ideas. The strongest claim I made was that it had a good win rate in that warped meta, not that it was the best solution or most popular.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
In the thread about Mask you linked there's a lot of misunderstanding. However in that thread, like the second announcer in the VoD, they eventually get it right. The point I am making however is that I have doubts that players at competitive events could spontaneously arrive at such correct rulings. It clear that there was widespread confusion about whether or not a card was cast when Mask was used. The high risk of illegitimacy is what I'm concerned about. It's already clown legacy with Misstep, and now we've got to ask if complex mechanics were navigated correctly. This is a time in legacy you don't want to extrapolate from - that's the point I'm making.
^As a Dreadstill player: If there are two legacy players who should know what's going on with Mask, it's pilots of decks with Standstill and/or Dreadnought. Instead we saw a VoD where the Dreadnought player overpays for Nought (playing it into Daze, and not needed to ignore Misstep) and the Standstill player just doesn't Daze and straight-up kills themself. When misunderstanding Mask extends all the way to the the players who should know better, I have little faith that things like 3Ball vs Mask were navigated correctly or generating appropriate judge calls by players who had no reason to understand Mask.
^I also don't associate Ancient Tomb with fostering understanding the rules of magic particularly well. However, I do associate Tomb with lock pieces [Chalice, Sphere effects, and especially 3ball] that generate very complex Mask rulings. If there were a TombNought deck, I would have so many more questions about correct navigation of the rules.
Kerrigan's SCG feature match coverage was June 2011. In those days an SCG feature match & article got seen by a large audience (content was rare then, not saturated like today), so a large part of the Legacy community was aware of the tech and rules for several months of the Misstep era from July 2011 to the Sept 20th ban.
Before that, players may have been unaware how Mask worked. But that video and article would have brought awareness. Kerrigan explains the correct CMC rules in the article: https://articles.starcitygames.com/a...orb-in-legacy/
TheSource thread has the correct rules too: https://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/...an-Dreadnought.
That thread was 2010, just after the unban, before Mask saw any play, so at that point players were still figuring the card out. Future players had the answer a quick search away. Gatherer has it too.
A Level 2 Judge should know too. You just had to call a judge.
Overall the potential for rules violations was high, potentially inflating the win rate at smaller paper events. That was a feature of all paper Magic back then though. Sometimes you won because opponent drew too many cards off Brainstorm and you caught it, not because your deck was better. That could happen even without a complex card like Illusionary Mask. You know how many players would try to cast Force of Will for 0 through Trinisphere? Rules errors might have inflated Mask win %, yes. But honestly just being attentive to opponent's errors and not making your own added 5-10% to win rate regardless of what deck you were on. That's why the same players made the top tables over and over.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
Doorkeeper Thrull's also way better than
Squire. But Dreadnought already wasn't playing either Torpor Orb or Squire (or
Hushbringer). Blue's enablers are better. 4x Stifle 4x Dress Down already counter enemy ETB triggered abilities and pitch to Force.
Reasons to consider Doorkeeper might be if you go UW and want more copies of Dress Down but less copies of Stifle, e.g.:
-More hate for enemy creatures
-Ambush small attackers like Bowmasters
-Midrange deck without Wasteland/Daze/Stifle mana denial plan
-Avoid 2-for-1s with Stifle+Dreadnought
-White count for
Solitude
White is a good color to be in because of the premium removal, planeswalkers, and board reset. You lack a secondary threat (probably can't afford to splash UUGG Uro) but could play a more controlling game with Dreadnought finisher and Scroll of Fate.
On Uro, the threat of a 6/6 isn't what matters so much as CA and ability to re-cast with minimal limitations. Doesn't matter what colors you choose, you have to recoup CA.
The bigger issue with white is that it didn't get DRC and is not an effective colorset for Saga/Mycosynth. White isn't the best for CA, and you have to run March of Otherworldly Light over Ending that tops out at 2c (the upside is that this one-shots Saga). It's generally worse against PWs than Pyroblast.
The upside of white is cycling for mana (Timeless Dragon), however Lorien is a better card as you can keep 1-landers. The problem however is that a 1x Currency Converter isn't something you can see enough of with without Saga to helping to find it.
As compared to red, the total mana requirement of white is a lot higher, another place where Saga isn't going to help you. The color pip requirements are heavier than UR, so Hall of Storm Giants is still a better fit in a manland slot...but even this was displaced by Otawara.
Circling back to CA, it's still Standstill and later on Lorien operates as additional copies of Standstill. While game actions are abundant, game action threats have dropped (manland to Otawara, trim Dragon fraction into Lorien). All these factors create a problematic scenario for gameplan progression - enemy PWs can sneak through the cracks.
There are massive benefits to UW however. Karn/Teferi is an incredible combo, but keyword haste on Minsc does pose problems (however Minsc use is down). Verdict is the perfect card for a Dreadnought deck. Teferi + Scroll of Fate is pretty much unbeatable (don't have to chew through removal). Karn keeps re-finding Dreadnoughts, guns down basics (while Stifle/Wasteland hits the nonbasics + Crucible wish), and kills Chalice. There are so many slots that kill or ignore Chalice that our favorite hostile opener is Chalice on 1 (which we let resolve).
While Dreadnought is very well supported by this type of hard control, it is decidedly not trying to win with damage. The 12/12s are only really there to combat combo and things like Post. This deck does well when we generate pseudo-CA by not turning on hostile kill spells (so Dress Down is at most a 2x b/c making sorcery speed threats is poor play vs removal-based decks).
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Concerning the new Torpor Orb guy, it's just going to die to removal and lock you into playing Noughts in a main phase...and we already have Torpor Orb in the SB, which means it's in hand with a Karn. I'd still rather have a card that gets me to 3 mana and denies monarch by stripping Horse Aer Lingus [Forth] 2/2s of their keyword haste (i.e. another copy of Dress Down).
I think there are too many mana issues and moving parts to engage in Saga find Map find Lotus Field -> now I can switch March back to Ending stuff. That said, Karn wish Hex Parasite + Saga find Parasite is a novel way to attack hostile PWs. Just a little too cute until wotc bans Tomb, Echo, Grief, and Beans (this is unlikely).
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
On Uro, the threat of a 6/6 isn't what matters so much as CA and ability to re-cast with minimal limitations. Doesn't matter what colors you choose, you have to recoup CA.
You don't have to recoup CA if Thrull is replacing copies of Stifle instead of Dress Down. If you stay on 4 Dress Down and pivot away from Stifle, you avoid the structural 2-for-1s and don't need the CA as badly.
Between cutting Stifle and no DRC, you lose a lot of speed, so you can't really be a racing deck like UR. But UW was never good at racing anyway. White does play better control.
Why is white not an effective colorset for Saga? It doesn't do 1-card Delirium for DRC, but it does do Map into Karakas/Hall of Heliod/Lotus Field? Also 1-of Currency Converter.
The color pips don't seem like a problem if your mana looks like:
//Lands:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Prismatic Vista
2 Tundra
3 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
1 Otawara, Soaring City
2 Urza's Saga
1-2 other lands
//Cyclers:
2 Lorien Revealed
2 Timeless Dragon
1 Currency Converter
1 Expedition Map
That should be stable access to colors.
Meanwhile you don't need redundant Thrulls and your lategame plan seems strong
//Enablers: 8
4 Dress Down
2 Doorkeeper Thrull
2 Scroll of Fate
//PWs: 4
2 Teferi, Time Raveler
2 Karn, the Great Creator
If the main PW of concern is Minsc, Hydroblast answers that. Hydroblast also counters Forth Eorlingas even better than Dress Down. You lose removal for enemy Teferi & Narset though.
You lose Prismatic Ending, but in the age of The One Ring and Kaldra Compleat 3-color Ending falls short anyway, at least March can answer them.
Is the Thrull really that bad? It does die to removal but also Stifles opponent's triggers (+1 card) and can ambush a Bowmaster to get it off the board. Combined with well-timed gravehate you can eat a DRC too.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
https://twitter.com/4dogs1suit/statu...RPhE-V5Fw&s=19
I just don't think I can pass this up
So I'm going to play br with the sol lands
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Yeah it is a great turn 2 kill. Why Monolith? Mox or SSG does the same but can also fix red.
The kill itself is high variance so you should have a good fair plan too.
What are you playing in black? Discard? Kroxa? Molten Collapse seems strong.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Monolith gives you up to seven mana turn 2, a mox gives 5
Black for Bowmasters
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
You don't have to recoup CA if Thrull is replacing copies of Stifle instead of Dress Down. If you stay on 4 Dress Down and pivot away from Stifle, you avoid the structural 2-for-1s and don't need the CA as badly.
Why is white not an effective colorset for Saga? It doesn't do 1-card Delirium for DRC, but it does do Map into Karakas/Hall of Heliod/Lotus Field? Also 1-of Currency Converter.
The color pips don't seem like a problem if your mana looks like:
//Lands:
4
Flooded Strand4
Prismatic Vista2
Tundra3
Island2
Plains1
Karakas1
Otawara, Soaring City2
Urza's Saga1-2
other lands//Cyclers:
2
Lorien Revealed2
Timeless Dragon1
Currency Converter1
Expedition Map
That should be stable access to colors.
Meanwhile you don't need redundant Thrulls and your lategame plan seems strong
//Enablers: 8
4
Dress Down2
Doorkeeper Thrull2
Scroll of Fate//PWs: 4
2
Teferi, Time Raveler2
Karn, the Great Creator
If the main PW of concern is Minsc, Hydroblast answers that. Hydroblast also counters Forth Eorlingas even better than Dress Down. You lose removal for enemy Teferi & Narset though.
You lose Prismatic Ending, but in the age of
The One Ring and
Kaldra Compleat 3-color Ending falls short anyway, at least March can answer them.
Is the Thrull really that bad? It does die to removal but also Stifles opponent's triggers (+1 card) and can ambush a Bowmaster to get it off the board. Combined with well-timed gravehate you can eat a DRC too.
In UW you don't really play creatures or win by damage, so making Noughts at sorcery speed is not useful (there's basically a 100% chance their hand is multiple kill spells). This is what limits Dress Down to 2x. Stifle is there to pick fights we don't care about, rather than making Noughts. The goal is Scroll on EoT protected by Teferi passive - this is how we beat removal. Once Karn is in the mix you use Dreadnought looping and 2/2 lands [Scroll] to discard usually about 8x kill spells; otherwise you wipe all their lands and only then make Dreadnoughts vs a hand of mono-kill spells they can't cast.
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Saga contaminating an opening hand is pretty rough for UW due to higher cmcs and color pips. We're not going to overload removal like UR can. If I'm choosing between a Saga and a Wasteland, I'm going to choose Wasteland in UW. When it comes to land totals, white has to play a little lower than UR (no Spikefield) and lower than UBx's CTP (that's Landstill colors, not playable with Nought). White spell lands are trash, and I can't go above 2x Otawara. In the 21-22 range you can't afford to be drawing Saga (Wasteland is really important, and you have Sevinne's target Wasteland and Karn wish Crucible) - damage from constructs & Nought isn't the currency of UW, absolute mana denial is. There is a maximal amount of colorless lands UW can get away with. Wasteland wins out here.
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There's this very strange tendency for people to notice that Bowmaster is a huge problem for mana bases held together by yolo-cantripping [Xerox], but then think it's our problem too. You really shouldn't be using a sketchy manabase that demands mulling away your CA. You know this because 2-for-1'ing yourself does not lead to a large enough hand for sculpting with 1-for-1s to matter (particularly when such deck construction creates glaringly massive weakness to Ancient Tomb). If you want to kill Bowmasters, you use Shark Typhoon and a real mana base. A whole 2 damage per turn is not really meaningful, so as long as you have the ability to progress your mana without creating a massive orc army problem for yourself, you just take your time. Ideally you would have Spikefield Hazard and the ability to delete Bowmasters with land slots, but you're not UR so you have to get more creative and construct the deck to not be affected by the passive and have wraths.
As printed Doorkeeper Thrull lacks hexproof, so I don't trust it to complete a trade with Bowmaster in the slightest. When it inevitably fails, it's not like I can fire off a Brainstorm with their kill spell on the stack - it doesn't stop the passive. If you're building into loses to Bowmaster, Thrull won't get you out of that situation.
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Concerning Torpor Orb effects things that we need to see in addition are:
-Hexproof/Shroud
-protection from white plus regenerate/indestructible
-creatures and PWs cannot use activated abilities
-casting spells cannot generate triggers (Chalice, Counterbalance, Beans, Storm, Ulamog trigger, DRC trigger, cascade, etc)
The flying, flash, lifelink, hits artifacts, stops death triggers stuff just isn't good enough.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
Monolith gives you up to seven mana turn 2, a mox gives 5
Black for Bowmasters
What do you need 7 mana for? All you need is at 1-5 mana.
Unless you're a Voltaic Key deck (Karn Forge, Paradox combo), Monolith is 1-time ramp like SSG. You don't need 1-time Monolith unless ramping into a big play like Peer into the Abyss. Dreadnought shouldn't need that.
T1 Tomb/City + SSG/Mox -> Scroll
End of turn Manifest Dreadnought
T2 land, Pyrotechnic Performer, flip 12/12 & attack -> 24 damage
No need to store up 7 mana. But red Mox helps for Pyrotechnic Performer and other colored cards.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
What do you need 7 mana for? All you need is at 1-5 mana.
Unless you're a Voltaic Key deck (Karn Forge, Paradox combo), Monolith is 1-time ramp like SSG. You don't need 1-time Monolith unless ramping into a big play like
Peer into the Abyss. Dreadnought shouldn't need that.
T1 Tomb/City + SSG/Mox -> Scroll
End of turn Manifest Dreadnought
T2 land, Pyrotechnic Performer, flip 12/12 & attack -> 24 damage
No need to store up 7 mana. But red Mox helps for Pyrotechnic Performer and other colored cards.
The odds of that in an opening hand is pretty low. That's a lot of 39.9% chances you have to roll together...and if you don't roll that, a simple Wasteland would be pretty devastating.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
In UW you don't really play creatures or win by damage, so making Noughts at sorcery speed is not useful (there's basically a 100% chance their hand is multiple kill spells).
Can't Currency Converter tokens, Scroll manifesting lands, and Saga constructs tilt that balance though to drain their removal? Saga into Converter helps that plan.
I suppose Landstill does that plan even better (+ Shark Typhoon, - the 2-for-1 12/12), but can't Dreadnought try to overload their removal too?
Why not have Dress Down at 4x? It's not just for sorcery speed Noughts. It's often 1.5 cards by Stifling opponent's card advantage creature & cantripping.
For instant Noughts, the cards I posted do build towards Scroll + Teferi endgame.
Does Saga hurt opening hand mana even as a 2-of, even with 4 colorless land cyclers (fix from colorless) and turning into Map/Converter? Wasteland is also colorless and puts you back a land. Don't see how that leads to more stable mana.
Quote:
There's this very strange tendency for people to notice that Bowmaster is a huge problem for mana bases held together by yolo-cantripping [Xerox], but then think it's our problem too. You really shouldn't be using a sketchy manabase that demands mulling away your CA. You know this because 2-for-1'ing yourself does not lead to a large enough hand for sculpting with 1-for-1s to matter (particularly when such deck construction creates glaringly massive weakness to Ancient Tomb). If you want to kill Bowmasters, you use Shark Typhoon and a real mana base.
What's sketchy about that manabase? It should hit UW colors easily.
It's not that Doorkeeper is ambushing some dangerous lethal creature, but that you're getting a 2-for-1 by ambushing an x/1 or Stifling their ETB trigger and then drawing a removal spell. Even if you don't enable a Nought, you traded positively unless they have removal open when you put Thrull on the stack.
Shark Typhoon is a better ambusher though, true.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
The odds of that in an opening hand is pretty low. That's a lot of 39.9% chances you have to roll together...and if you don't roll that, a simple Wasteland would be pretty devastating.
The deck needs a fair backup plan. It can't be the only plan. Point was that Monolith ramping to 7 isn't needed.
Scam has similar percentages is still Tier 1. As long as the deck has a reasonable fair plan, it's OK to only have the big play some fraction of the time.
To avoid losing to Wasteland, need more low mana plays (i.e. ignore the deck I posted before, start from broader picture).
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
What do you need 7 mana for? All you need is at 1-5 mana.
Unless you're a Voltaic Key deck (Karn Forge, Paradox combo), Monolith is 1-time ramp like SSG. You don't need 1-time Monolith unless ramping into a big play like
Peer into the Abyss. Dreadnought shouldn't need that.
T1 Tomb/City + SSG/Mox -> Scroll
End of turn Manifest Dreadnought
T2 land, Pyrotechnic Performer, flip 12/12 & attack -> 24 damage
No need to store up 7 mana. But red Mox helps for Pyrotechnic Performer and other colored cards.
the 7 mana is for when you don't have these elements.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FourDogsinaHorseSuit
the 7 mana is for when you don't have these elements.
What do you need 7 mana for?
4 is enough for The One Ring or Karn, the Great Creator.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
What if I want to also cast the thing I want after t1r or karn? Not of this world
Realistically, it's 6 mana (to ritual's 4) since you need a second sol ring and 6 mana is a much more obvious break point which casts: Mask+Eater of Days, Wurmcoil Engine, Karn + Orb, mask+2 myr superions, chromatic orrey, etnerity vessle, Kaldra, Big Karn, Vanguard Supressor + 1 squad, Scarian Infultrator + Squad 2, Endbringer, Battleball, Spine of Ish Sah, Staff of Nin, Phyrexian Devourer
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Going 4x Scroll 4x Mask would be interesting because you could reliably make facedown creatures for Pyrotechnic Performer.
But Mask's flip is not a game action you can control at any time, Mask makes the 2/2 at sorcery speed, and it casts the card - so it's better if the new set has some good Manifest/Disguise enabler.
Mask is also redundant in multiples (Scroll turns extras into 2/2s) so it may help to have card filtering like Fable or Daretti to convert extra Masks into useful cards, or to tutor for it (Karn, Goblin Engineer).
Edit: Other cheap creatures in RB you could consider cheating out
Vexing Devil
Death's Shadow
Hunted Horror
Myr Superion
Kroxa, Titan of Death's Hunger
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
But Mask's flip is not a game action you can control at any time
Controlling the flip is the easy part. If you have keyword morph or megamorph or disguise/cloak (whatever they call the new one), it works like you want it to.
For all other creatures without that text printed on the face-down side, you merely have to tap them. This is trivial with Survivors' Encampment, but the biggest issue there is the lack of Desert-Fetchlands or competitively costed keyword desertcycling. Springleaf Drum is not a playable card.
It is important to remember that you can announce a split second spell -> pay by tapping a flipping a face-down and protect their trigger with split second. You can also flip a morph/megamorph/disguise-cloak/manifest of you have extra mana, with split second spell holding down the stack.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
What happens when you play Valki, God of Lies facedown for 2 mana in paper Magic? Does the piece of cardboard grow a 4th dimension?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
What happens when you play
Valki, God of Lies facedown for 2 mana in paper Magic? Does the piece of cardboard grow a 4th dimension?
You have a 2/2 morph or manifest. Hidden under that is an unplayable 2/1. Casting it as morph or manifesting will delete the entire text box. You cannot choose to morph/manifest the back face of a card with 2 sides.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
What happens when you play
Valki, God of Lies facedown for 2 mana in paper Magic? Does the piece of cardboard grow a 4th dimension?
Face-down, like tapped, is a status. Anything can be turned face down. Even things with non-magic backs. This isn't transforming, and when turned face up it will be valki. Never the back side because the back side isn't knowable to mask or scroll.
This is a rule change, btw. It used to be DFCs couldn't be face down.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
If you want to see fourth plus dimensions there's alchemy cards with 6 different backs, man specialization was weird
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
You have a 2/2 morph or manifest. Hidden under that is an unplayable 2/1. Casting it as morph or manifesting will delete the entire text box. You cannot choose to morph/manifest the back face of a card with 2 sides.
In paper Magic, not online. What do you physically do with the card to place it "face down" but not show as Tibalt? It defies the physics of a "card game".
They might as well introduce a keyword ability with "Roll target nonland permanent. If the result is a 3: ability". It could be implemented in the Comp Rules and on MTGO in a functional way, but makes as much sense in paper.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
In paper Magic, not online. What do you physically do with the card to place it "face down" but not show as Tibalt? It defies the physics of a "card game".
They might as well introduce a keyword ability with "Roll target nonland permanent. If the result is a 3: ability". It could be implemented in the Comp Rules and on MTGO in a functional way, but makes as much sense in paper.
You're supposed to have opaque sleeves or checklist cards when using DFCs , just turn them face down
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
How was it in your deck? Your hand?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FTW
In paper Magic, not online. What do you physically do with the card to place it "face down" but not show as Tibalt? It defies the physics of a "card game".
They might as well introduce a keyword ability with "Roll target nonland permanent. If the result is a 3: ability". It could be implemented in the Comp Rules and on MTGO in a functional way, but makes as much sense in paper.
I mean the bigger problem is that the back side of a DFC is technically supposed to be visible in your hand or top of deck. Indicator cards are used because they have an official card back iirc. Otherwise, without sleeves, presence of DFCs would be public knowledge...and then you'd have issue with predicting when one was nearing top of deck etc..
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Slip has been played at 1-2 copies in some Uro lists that made 5-0 on MTGO.
But if you're playing Slip you really don't need Thrull. 10 enablers is more than enough. Slip is much better with Uro and Endurance than Thrull is (does not counter ETB draw).
For your first list, it needs stable mana. It seems more viable as
//Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
3 Wasteland
//Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Prismatic Ending
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Lorien Revealed
//Enchantments: 5
4 Dress Down
1 Sylvan Library
//Creatures: 9
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
4 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
1 Brazen Borrower
Fox will point out strategic disadvantages vs Dreadstill, but as far as 3 color DressNought goes at least you've achieved important things:
- card advantage (Uro, Library, Lorien)
- reliable answers (StP, Ending)
- alternate wincon (Borrower, Uro)
- Dreadnought enablers that aren't bad on their own (Slip is most likely to be dead, but only 2 copies)
- somewhat stable mana as far as 3 color Uro decks go (still weak to mana hate)
Library might be suicidal vs Bowmasters. 1-of Greater Good could be interesting if you had Tarmogoyf as a fair threat.
In both lists Daze seems bad because you can't afford to undo land drops with manabases like that. The BUG one could use more unconditional interaction instead, e.g. Thoughtseize or Assassin's Trophy, since it doesn't have as many answers as the Bant one.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Oops, I was sure I typed 4 Thoughtseize into that BUG List but I think I accidentally left it out.
4 Thoughtseize is an autoinclude in BUG Nought and is my favorite reason to splash black, more so than Bowmasters.
Thoughtseize is the best way to check when the coast is clear to deploy your game winning threat.
Youre right that Sylvan Library is a bad idea in the Bowmasters meta. I havent played Library recently but yeah it should get axed from the lists.
I do think Uro Dressnought (particularly the two builds above) are very well positioned in the Bowmasters meta as they dodge a lot of removal. More importantly, the threats dodge Bowmasters and consistently outmuscle Orc armies while the lifegain from Uro sometimes let you ignore Bowmasters completely.
With Uro out, you can cantrip into Bowmasters without fear since you are still swinging with a 6/6, drawing a card and netting 2 life every turn.
They are also less reliant on cantrips than most lists so you could side out cantrips for sideboard hate against an aggressive Bowmasters list. Sideboard Endurance is not a reason to avoid playing Thrull. You can just sideout Thrull anytime youre siding Endurance in.
Greater Good+Goyf is a really neat suggestion. Is Goyf still a legacy power level card? Is Greater Good worth playing even without Goyf in the Bowmasters meta?
Also, just wanted to double check. Can you use Misdirection to Misdirect the ping damage from a Bowmasters back to itself. Being able to do that (and the prevalence of Leyline’s Binding) is what would make me want to play Misdirection. Or does Bowmasters no longer count as a spell thus preventing you from being able to Misdirect the damage?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Misdirection does not work on Bowmasters or Leyline Binding. Those are triggered abilities. Force of Negation is the only Legacy-playable version.
The reason for 0 Thrull is not SB Endurance but because 10 enablers is enough (no room for both Thrull and Slip) and Thrull is worse with Uro. If you really want Thrull, probably have to go 0 Slip, but that's worse with the Uro plan.
Greater Good + Goyf are a bit below Legacy power level, though the Greater Good version has done OK in the past. It's better outside the Bowmaster meta.
Murktide and Questing Druid are better than Goyf, but you can't really run either. No red for Druid. Murktide + Uro don't work in the same deck.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Thank you. Misdirection isnt worth playing then. You can ignore that card in the above lists. Slip Out the Back is clearly superior since it does counter Leyline’s Binding and neuters Bowmasters for long enough to cast all your cantrips.
The more enablers you play, the more consistenly strong your threats become. By playing 11-13 enablers, you dramatically lower the odds of Dreadnought being a dead draw.
Given this, why do you say the deck should not play more than 10 “enablers” as you characterize them? Its not a lack of room. Both of my builds above have the room to play more than 10 and if needed, they can easily cut the Lorien Revealed to make even more room for our disruptive or cantripping enablers.
There is no such thing as too many “enablers” when all of the “enablers” themselves have very powerful, useful and unique roles that are actually more powerful than their utility in deploying our threats. Stifle, Dress Down, Slip Out and Thrull all meet that standard.
Stifle should primarily be used as a mana destruction spell, or a hard counter to powerful triggers and a game winning play against a variety of combo decks. Yes it enables the combo but thats not its primary function. Its fine to use it on Uro but I would never waste a Stifle on Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear.
Slip Out will more often be used to protect your threat and essentially counter removal spells than to enable the combo. Its the best way to protect your win condition. Akin to Stifle, its fine to use it on Uro since thats card neutral but I would never use it to “enable” a Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear. I would however 100% use it to protect any of my threats from removal which is something none of the other enablers can do.
Dress Down is conveniently the exact inverse of Stifle and Slip Out in that its fine to use it to deploy a single Dreadnought since doing so is a card neutral play and a single Dreadnought is capable of ending the game in 1-2 swings but I would never use up a Dress Down to deploy a single Uro by itself unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear. Dress Down always cantrips so it shouldnt even be considered an enabler. Its actual best use is to counter an opponents trigger while cantripping you and it will more often either be used to temporarily disable Bowmasters so you can deploy multiple cantrips, or it will be used to deploy multiple threats at once.
Thrull is unique from all the other enablers in a number of ways. Its a permanent hard counter to all creature triggers which largely shuts down a bunch of popular decks outright. Its also a permanent enabler to all current and future threats you deploy so it has potential far beyond when you first deploy it. Its also the best answer to any Stoneforge Mystic Living Weapon decks with incidental splash damage vs Mox as well. Its also a flash flying creature that kills attacking Bowmasters and other X/1 threats and can be flashed in response to stop an opponents most critical trigger which will outright win you some games.
Thrull however is useless in multiples so it only makes sense as a 1-2 of maindeck, but I think its absolutely worth playing in Bant lists alongside Slip Out the Back and it makes sense to play as many as 3 copies in the sideboard given its strength against certain popular decks.
All four cards have powerful and unique effects that are game winning in different situations. So they are all worth playing together. In most metas, it would be well worthwhile to maindeck…
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
1-3 Slip Out the Back
1-2 Doorkeeper Thrull
//Sideboard
2-3 Doorkeeper Thrull
even if it means playing as many as 13 “enablers” preboard and as many as 15 “enablers” postboard.
There is plenty of room, there is nothing wrong with playing…
20 Lands
13 Enablers
4 Uro
4 Dreadnought
8 Cantrips
11 Disruption/Removal
Particularly when the enablers themselves also serve as disruption and both Uro and Dress Down function as cantrips as well.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Clark Kant
Why do you say the deck should not play more than 10 “enablers” as you characterize them. My builds above have the room to play more than 10 and if needed, they can easily cut the Lorien Revealed to make more room.
It's been possible to play 16+ enablers for many years, yet builds with more than 12-13 enablers have not seen competitive results. The successful decks have 7-10.
We can speculate reasons, but most importantly the results speak for themselves. Winning decks haven't needed more. Decks with more haven't done better. Maybe Fox has a better answer for why.
So instead of more enablers, you could use those slots on other roles instead (card draw, removal, alternate threat, stable mana) - roles that are important to play a balanced game against enemy decks. The Bant build I posted above is quite tight for space. There are about 1-3 flex slots (Sylvan Library & Slip are the weakest cards). The 6th removal or 8th cantrip is needed more than the 11th enabler. If there was more space, it should go to 3rd Prismatic Ending or 1st Force of Negation or an alternate threat.
Cutting Lorien seems bad because you need the mana fixing (3 color deck with UUGG) and card draw more than another enabler.
"Too many" enablers looks like drawing enablers far more often than drawing Dreadnought. They aren't quite "dead cards" - you can do something else with them - but the cards are below Legacy power level at that function. And worse than the non-enabler cards you had to cut.
You don't see competitive decks running Slip Out the Back or Vision Charm or The Mycosynth Gardens or Torpor Orb or Hushbringer maindeck without Dreadnoughts, which tells you their other uses are below Legacy power (definitely worse than Goyf). Dress Down cycles and has strong uses. Still non-Dreadnought decks don't play 4 copies of Dress Down. They play 2-3 max. So yes, the cards do other things, but they're below the power level unless making 12/12s. And they compete for space with higher power cards.
If you do somehow have space that isn't better as something else (answer, draw, threat), then you have to ask if Thrull is the best enabler to take that spot. Thrull doesn't work well with Uro. So would you prefer a powerful card like Scroll of Fate or Karn, the Great Creator instead?
Thrull has potential, but that Bant list with 4 Dreadnought 4 Uro may not be the best fit for it. Uro has an important role there as the secondary threat & midgame stabilizer, so you don't want to shut off your own Uro triggers just to make a 6/6 (smaller than Murktide).
Quote:
Stifle should primarily be used as a mana destruction spell, or a hard counter to powerful triggers and a game winning play against a variety of combo decks. Yes it enables the combo but thats not its primary function. Its fine to use it on Uro but I would never waste a Stifle on Dreadnought unless I already Thoughtseized or 100% know the coast is clear.
I agree. But it's also hard to use Stifle as a reactive spell in a tap-out style Bant deck with plays like Ponder, Uro, Sylvan Library, PEnding. You won't have mana open at the right times to Stifle them.
That leads to 2 choices really
1) Play like Fox's Dreadstill (cut Ponder & Uro, play more instant speed plays like Shark Typhoon)
2) Cut down to 2 Stifle because you can't use the 4 Stifle optimally
Cutting Stifles does free up space, perhaps for Thrull.
Quote:
Slip Out will more often be used to protect your threat and essentially counter removal spells than to enable the combo.
But with only 9 creatures in the deck, you often won't have a threat to protect. Then a hand full of enablers (especially Slip) looks bad. That mode is only useful if you've used another enabler to make a threat.
Slip could also be used to Scam Subtlety. That tech is worth looking into. Unfortunately you don't have the white count to scam Solitude.
So you could cut some Slips or Stifles to make room for Thrulls (Thrull does disrupt a lot of decks); it's just that Thrull is worse than Slip or Stifle with Uro.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
I quite like the Bant list above. But as you yourself mentioned, Sylvan Library should probably get the boot and 1 Lorien Revealed likely suffices so there is 2 extra slots right there. Its also blatantly obvious why decks didnt play more than 10 enablers before. Its because the earlier enablers like Vision Charm and Illusionary Mask/Torpor Orb/Scroll for many years. Those cards just arent anywhere near as disruptive or impactful as the two most recent enablers, Slip Out the Back and Thrull, due to these enablers instant speed, cheap cost and the powerful effect they have on the board.
I am not saying 13 Enablers is optimal. 13 might make sense for Bant lists in metas with lots of Doomsday or DnT.
However the optimal BUG list only plays at most 11 enablers…
4 Stifle
4 Dress Down
3 Slip Out the Back
4 Dreadnought
4 Uro
3 Bowmasters
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Thoughtseize
4 FoW
1 Witherbloom Command
1-2 Flex Slot
19-20 Lands
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Slip's been out for a while. The winning decks only run 1-2 Slip even when they could run 4. Some also cut back on Stifles.
Scroll of Fate & Karn (into Torpor Orb) are both very strong cards. So it has been possible to play 12-15 "good" enablers for some time, yet winning decks didn't.
That BUG list is very low on removal and has unstable mana on 19 lands with 0 Lorien and some Wastelands. An optimal BUG list needs more: Assassin's Trophy and/or Sheoldred's Edict. Going below 20 lands also means manascrew vs Delver.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
The BUG list I posted can play 20 lands and 1 Lorien Revealed in the flex slot. Why is more removal essential when our threats outpace most creatures and we have 4 thoughtseize and 4 fow supplementing our threats? I am open to moving Bowmasters or Witherbloom to the board to make room for the appropriate removal if you can tell me what matchups/threats you are most worried about that you feel we need additional removal to answer.
I understand where youre coming from. Scroll and Karn are decent but I actually do not feel Scroll is a legacy power level card. Creating a 2/2 a turn at the cost of a card is just too slow for Legacy and 3 mana is a lot to pay for such a meager payoff.
And I feel that Karn at 4cc is just too expensive. I have lost as many games to mana flood as I have to mana screw so I do not think it is a good idea to play either 4cc spells like Karn and Greater Good and risk mana screw. And I also do not think its a good idea to play a high land count and risk mana flood.
Likewise, I like lots of enablers because I rarely want to lose a game with a Dreadnought stuck in my hand that I had no means to cast. In this Grief meta, opponents pick off Dreadnought enablers too easily and thus the more enablers we play, the more likely we can cantrip into one.
I am firmly in the keep all the spells at 3cc or less and keep the land count a lean 19-20 supplemented by cantrips camp. But as I said before, I do think the Bant list you posted above is pretty close to optimal as long as you make room for some Thrull in the sideboard atleast.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
If you're already playing stifle, slip, Thoughtseize and Bowmasters, why not grief?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Yeah that's the other thing... once you're on both Stifle & Slip, scam seems like a better secondary strategy. Thrull works badly with Uro & Scam, but Slip is good with both. You could scam Grief for discard, or you could scam Subtletly (counters Grief & Initiative & planeswalkers).
Otherwise 3-4 Slip seems excessive. It's not really a Legacy level card. Non-Dreadnought decks don't run it. Dreadnought decks have only run 1-2 even though they could have 4.
19-20 lands with 3-4 Wasteland and UUGG costs and 0 Lorien will get ripped apart by mana denial decks (Delver, DnT, Moon Stompy). You don't want mana flood either, but that's why Lorien is good. With Lorien you don't get flooded but you don't get mana screwed either.
Why removal? When your main plan is turn 3 Dreadnought/Uro (after Dress Down or Thrull, avoiding blind Stifle+Nought like you said), many decks can race. Delver's Murktide after slowing you down with Wasteland & Daze. Turn 1 Initiative creature is dangerous. UB scam can reanimate an early Troll after discarding your Force. Goblins can make turn 1 Muxus.
What do you do against a resolved Chalice @ 1? It shuts off a lot of the deck. The Bant deck has Prismatic Ending & Borrower, but the BUG deck has just 1 Witherbloom Command.
What about opponent playing Karn into Ensnaring Bridge? If you don't have Force, 0 answers for Bridge maindeck.
20/20 Marit Lage ambushing or racing Dreadnought? The Bant deck has 7 answers, BUG has 0 (Sheoldred Edict helps).
With Force and Thoughtseize you're very prepared for combo, but fair decks can also play dangerous permanents before you can race. Most decks run answers.
When running extra enablers, you have to ask if those enablers help you win more than flexible removal or Lorien or card draw would. BUG might want some Sauron's Ransom, a better solution to discard than playing redundant effects (if they see Dreadnought & 3 enablers, they're just taking Dreadnought).
In BUG, if you still want extra enablers, look at that UB flying looter that can turn into Dreadnoughts. At least that's an enabler that can also smooth out unbalanced hands or dig into answers.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
You’re right. Grief makes a lot of sense in the BUG list with Stifle and Slip.
Adding Grief seems correct, the only issue is figuring out what to cut and how to up the black count to 14. I guess it would fit into the flex slots and a Thoughtseize or two could be substituted with Grief. In addition, playing a Leovold, Emissary of Trest is a great way to boost both our disruption and our black and blue count, but that still doesnt quite get us to a black count of 14.
So I am wondering if perhaps it makes sense to replace a Ponder with a Sauron’s Ransom or Shelodred’s Edict or Snuff Out in order to increase the black count for Greif. If we go the Snuff Out route, replacing the 4th Uro with a 1 of Death’s Shadow also makes sense as a way to beef up both the black count and our clock.
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Troll (instead of Lorien), Sauron's Ransom and removal could boost black count if you're on the Grief plan.
I tried throwing something together. You end up cutting copies of Dress Down and Uro and to make room.
That's the problem with too many enablers. Fights for space. Dress Down ends up looking worse with Grief & Bowmasters & Uro too.
Can't cut Ponder in a 3-color Uro deck with only 16 colored lands, the manabase needs it.
Edit:
//Creatures: 14
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Orcish Bowmasters
2 Uro, Titan of Nature's Wrath
4 Grief
2 Troll
//Spells: 25
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
2 Slip Out the Back
2 Thoughtseize
3 Assassin's Trophy
2 Sauron's Ransom
//Enchantments: 2
2 Dress Down
//Lands: 19
2 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Forest
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Yeah replacing Lorien with Troll is probably the best way to get to 14 black cards for Grief. Once you add Grief and Troll, a Reanimate or two starts to look very appealing. But I wouldnt cut Dress Down. Its the best “enabler” of them all.
Curious what the list you came up with looks like. Do you mind sharing it?
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Re: [Primer] Six Shades of Dressnought aka Vaka-Nought
Just posted it above in an edit.
I added Sauron's Ransom for card draw and Trophy (removes Dark Depths, Murktide, Chalice @ 1, Ensnaring Bridge, Back to Basics, planeswalkers, Archon of Cruelty, Serra's Emissary on creatures... most permanents that would give this deck problems). Troll instead of Lorien
Black count is 15. But to make room I had to cut back on Uros, Dress Downs and Wasteland.
Edit: So the problem with Dress Down here is although it's the best Dreadnought card, it has anti-synergy with the other creatures (and even cycling it can backfire).
Uro - turns off card draw & life gain & land drop
Bowmasters - turns off your own Bowmasters for a turn to let opponent Brainstorm
Grief - turns off Grief ETB discard
Slip doesn't turn off Grief & Uro abilities, so it's better there, but it's worse by itself and worse with Dreadnought.
Slip + Grief is also worse than Reanimate/Ephemerate + Grief (get extra discard). So maybe it's not worth mixing Scam and Dreadnought. You end up watering down both.
