[Deck] Belcher

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kicks_422

Beating Goblins with Belcher should be a given. That's not really a good measuring stick for any Belcher build.

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On the play, they can kill you by turn 3. As far as I'm concerned, it's the epitome of what you want to race. If both are unhindered, and you aren't outpacing a mono-red list, you need to re-evaluate.

Much like you said, you should beat them. They are the fastest of aggro, you are combo. If you can't, work the list. If you can, start testing it against a real gauntlet you'd expect.

Typically, after determining it's got pretty much solid game against Goblins both pre and post board, I'll put it to the test against Thresh, Landstill, and any other decks I know should give it problems.

Combo decks are pretty much a coin toss, so I rarely play against storm and Ichorid. Usually whoever is first is going to have the upper hand, especially if there's disruption in either.

With a list that splashes black for more tutors, your aim should be Turn 1 or Turn 2 at the latest, especially up against an aggro deck without countermagic nor discard. Your Turn 1-2 wins should be much, much more frequent than the Turn 3 kills of Goblins anyway. Mulliganing is the most important skill that this deck utilizes, risky but that's the way the deck is constructed in the first place.

Hi everybody... I just want to address the issue about whether or not to splash black.
This issue goes on and on and on throughout the history of belcher but never seems to go unanswered.
The advantages as I see them:
RG=
8X useful spirit guides ESG doesn't only produce :1:
less confusing opening hands
no color troubles
more consistent belcher umm... belches?:confused:
more sac-mana (to play with your lands like cantor and tinder wall)
BRG=
more tutors
more mana
access to Ad-Nauseum and other black card draw... is this all?

oh yeah, I still don't have any progress happening with my Sylvan Belcher list...

Because Sylvan Library has no place in Belcher. You want to add something that adds consistency in a RG build splash black and play Dark Ritual and Spoils of the Vault. Otherwise just run the awful Street Wraith and/or Serum Powder. This deck is a "DUUUR" combo deck in that it doesn't rely on topdecks and require complicated thought processes about which lands to fetch out, figuring out if you have enough mana to Chant and combo out, complicated stacking of the deck, etc., it simply looks at its opening hand and asks "can I win?" This deck should not be in topdeck mode. Ever. It should be losing big or winning big, no inbetween (aside from race situations with 8ish Warrens tokens or a failed Belcher attempt). Sylvan Library does absolutely nothing in the main and is hideous in your opening hand, it takes up space and adds nothing to the combo turn. Belcher doesn't need setup cards. You want setup play DDFT or TES.

I'd have to agree with Pulp. You don't have the time or resources to use Library effectively, your turn two is the latest you want to go off. Any later, and you are opening up a can of worms on yourself. Everything in the format has a critical mass of turn 3, whether it be other combo decks, Thresh, etc playing out CounterTop or any control/aggro control having access to FoW, Daze, and another counter on the same turn, etc.

The deck's focus is to go off laughing at a FoW. This used to happen because of Welder, being able to get whatever you got countered back into play. Then it evolved into discard elements (mostly because StP was more common now), then people started maindecking Xantids. Personally, I toss in a couple of Duress (now would be Thoughtseize, all because StP is still common, and Xantid in my opinion is a turn too slow), and call it good. Aside from Spoils, you aren't taking damage anywhere in the first turn.

Also, having Manamorphose in the deck means you can still pack the 8 Spirit Guides, but I personally would only pack the red ones anyways. Having 8 deters from the storm count, which is necessary if you can't get to Belcher and have to go with EtW or Tendrils (another good reason for black). As far as the consistency of the Belch, Land Grant is obviously always going for Bayou first. Aside from that, hope you don't hit it on the way down.

Typically, as far as I've seen, BRG doesn't have mana inconsistencies. Cantor and Manamorphose can be cast off green or red, and Tinder Wall is taken out simply because it's unnecessary to force the deck to require green to get anywhere, as all green adds is Tinder Wall and Spirit Guide. There's really nothing else you need to worry about as far as mana fixing, unless you opt into the Tendrils kill in the SB, which requires 3BBR, as opposed to 4RR for EtW via Wish. Xantid from the SB (if you choose to play it) can even be cast off Chrome imprints of itself (or anything hybrid), or the land you fetch with Grant.

lol people are still posting in this thread? As far as I know, the list is already pretty much optimized for both versions of the deck, RG and BRG. There's a few preference slots that you can toy around with, but otherwise there really isn't much room for experimenting. That's the result you get when you engineer a combo deck for optimum speed and ignore the rest. If a card doesn't directly help you speed out the combo asap, then it most likely doesn't have a place in the deck.

I think Belcher is a great place for a combo player to start in Legacy. However, if you seek to push your skill and use it to your advantage, Belcher has way too big of a random factor for any seasoned player. The frustration level will soon get the best of you (unless you're a really, really lucky guy lol).

Firstly this is my first post on The Source - sweet forum! Anyways...

I've read this thread from start to finish, and in the last few pages there were a few comments about there being 'standard builds' (R/G & R/G/B), and some comments of card changes, though I didn't see many updated full decklists.

Based on comments by Pulp/DeathwingZERO I compiled the below list of what a R/B/g version minus ESG's might look like. If this was posted somewhere previously I apologise I missed it.

4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Duress
2 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Chrome Mox
4 Seething Song
4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Empty the Warrens
4 Land Grant
4 Rite of Flame
4 Goblin Charbelcher
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Bayou
1 Taiga

I've been testing it and it feels even more 'all-or-nothing' than the version I currently play (pure R/G). I feel I can Goldfish Turn 1/2 kills a lot more with access to Dark Ritual and Spoils. It also feels more robust in the sense of having discard there to bait out some Countermagic. However you occasionally die from tutors, though the way I figure it if you don't get the right cards you were destined to die anyways.

There is also a slight inconsistency on having both red and black sources to start casting your mana-producers, but I guess it can come down to mulliganing..

Keep this thread alive, I love this deck! While you can die from Spoils its really exciting to use - this list plays like an Extreme Sport! :tongue:

You should probably have something like 4 Manamorphose in there, and strip Duress/Cabal Ritual out. You'll never get threshold quickly enough to matter, and you pretty much pack it to Force anyway.

Also, Wish is probably better than Spoils, because it a) can fetch answers to unforseen problems, b) won't kill you, and c) requires only red to go off.

Thoughtseize might very well be better as Pyroblast, because it can add to the storm count, and requires only red.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ozymandias

You should probably have something like 4 Manamorphose in there, and strip Duress/Cabal Ritual out. You'll never get threshold quickly enough to matter, and you pretty much pack it to Force anyway.

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Theres been discussion about manamorphose and how it doesnt give you any extra mana, only adds to storm count. Duress stays. Cabal could probably be swapped out, but you're not expecting to have threshold, it just adds storm+1 mana tho. Its probably the weakest card tho.

I really don't play this deck anymore, I think in terms of combo this deck just can't reliably fight through hate cards like B/U/g ANT and TES can. IMOP those are pretty much the best combo decks in the format currently. First off, Burning Wish is spectacular in the deck. But it does have its hits and misses. Against heavy control decks I actually side out Burning Wish unless I know they are playing Chalice or Trinisphere.

A little more than a year ago Belcher was hot shit since it could reliably go off turns 1-2 everytime but just packed it in to certain hate cards and was far superior (IMOP) to TES or almost any other combo deck at the time. This is certainly not the case today. Turn 1 Trinisphere just ruins this deck in every way. Also, Belcher has problems with just 1 hate card but dealing with numerous is a serious problem. Orim's Chant is also a serious problem. This deck is not built for the long run. You don't build up a hand and test the opponent's defenses slowly and look for openings then strike (and unlike about a year ago, today you reliably win); but rather the deck just explodes in the first few turns before the opponent is able to do anything.

If you want to play combo today, look up TES and U/B/g ANT (without Chant + KGrip). If you really want to play Belcher this is my final list that I used to run. It is IMOP the optimal version of Spoils Belcher to run:

3x Spoils of the Vault
4x Lotus Petal
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Lion’s Eye Diamond
4x Land Grant
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
4x Dark Ritual
4x Rite of Flame
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Burning Wish
4x Chrome Mox
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Tinder Wall
4x Seething Song
3x Empty the Warrens
1x Taiga
1x Bayou

Sideboard

1x Diminishing Returns
1x Empty the Warrens
1x Shattering Spree
1x Reverent Silence
1x Pyroclasm
3x Thoughtseize
3x Duress
4x Tombstalker

If you want me to talk you through card choices and SB strategies I can, I always liked Belcher since it is simple and effective at what it does. But this deck is really like not even playing magic, you just goldfish it with someone sitting in front of you. However, with the printing of Ad Nauseam I think it has really put a dampening on Belcher since most combo decks can reliably go off on turns 1-3 which used to be why people played Belcher over slower setup combo decks like Iggy Pop and Solidarity.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

If you want me to talk you through card choices and SB strategies I can

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Hey Pulp, can you show us with the above decklist what SB choices you'd make against:
-Dreadstill
-Threshold
-Ichorid

That'd be sweet.

Never SB anything against Dredge. Belcher is simply faster than they are. Aim to go off as early as possible or if things look shitty just try to keep a hand with Burning Wish or Tinder Wall. Tinder Wall removes their Bridges when u sacrifice it during their turn! But this matchup should not be to bad. Try to win with Warrens tokens since they most likely will bring in Pithing Needle for Belcher.

I SB the exact same against every blue-based deck that plays counterspells! This is what I do:

-4 Burning Wish (only good with LED)
-4 Seething Song (this thing gets countered u are fucked)
-3 Tinder Wall

+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize
+4 Tombstalker
+1 Empty the Warrens

Belcher is a glass cannon deck and will not handle the long game. Most people prefer the Red Blast plan but it does nothing. If it were any good this deck would be tier 1! Turn 2-4 Tombstalker is just a house against most control decks! Since StP comes out he is a very big suprise! I choose to cut Burning Wish since you have to go all-in with LED or shit tons or rituals and basically lose if Burning Wish is countered. You can moderately storm with 4x EtW in the deck, go for Tombstalker, or Belch them out, all within the first 1-3 turns backed up by hand disruption!

Against decks that run just Chant effects go:
-4 Tinder Wall
-2 Seething Song

+3 Duress
+3 Thoughtseize

Play this deck with caution though, honestly, there really isn't any reason to play this over TES, if you can build Belcher you already have all the expensive cards for combo: LED, Mox, and Burning Wish. All you have to do is invest in Orim's Chant or just play Duress in its place (sub-optimal but if money is a big issue it works). Good to see interest in this deck again, but its time has pretty much come and gone :(

Belcher needs an alternate kill besides Empty the Warrens, which in the days of Stifles and Engineered Explosives and Pyroclasms galore really doesn't cut it.

The other problem Belcher faces is that Ad Nauseam was printed. Which instead of saying ":7:, win target game." says ":3::b::b:, win target game." Granted, Belcher will randomly fail to kill, and Ad Nauseam sucks if they stall long enough to drop your life total low, but for the most part, Ad Nauseam dropped the converted mana cost of a one-card win by 2. All while allowing a more resilient and consistent shell.

Hehe thanks guys. I get the consensus from players and see the results and know this decks time has come, but I just wanted my build/strat for it to be optimal regardless.

I hoard decks, I rarely rip them up. I'll probably go on to create ANT/Dredge next from scratch, but I'm leaving my Belcher intact. I can pull it out occasionally against casual chumps to show em how to win on turn 1 hehe.

In what kind of meta would Belcher steal wins?

Does it do well in a meta of Counterbalance Thresh? I know it does terrible against Stompy/Stax with 3Sphere. But I would like some opinions on a meta of Counterbalance and discard. Is Discard ever a problem for the deck?

I'm assuming aggro should be a cakewalk. Can Belcher race ANT in terms of speed?

Yes Belcher is faster than ANT. That means it has a higher turn 1 win % chance. However it is still a question of who wins the die roll.

ANT runs disruption in form of 4 dures + 4 chant and is a bit slower. I think the MU is 40/60 for Ant.


Counterbalance is no problem for Belcher cuz it is just to slow. But most deck that run Cbalance also run Fow and Daze wich are more threatening.

Discard could be annoying cuz you couldnt mull as aggresivly as against other decks.

@Tacosnape:
Yeah i agree with you. I think ANT is just the better deck.

here is the belcher list I am currently running

1L gnarbelcher

Lands: 1
1 taiga

Creatures: 12
4 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
4 tinder wall

Spells: 31
4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 dark ritual
4 land grant
4 seething song
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
3 empty the warrens

artifacts: 16
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 goblin charbelcher

SB:
1x diminishing returns
1x empty the warrens
1x tendrils of agony
4x shattering spree
4x pyroblast
4x tombstalker

I think te maindeck here is pretty solid, manamorphose is needed, it is a must, it increases stormcount like nobodys buisness, fixes your mana, and draws you a card for free. Without manamorphose its near impossible to play dark ritual which speeds this deck up so much. I tied for first in a 20 man tournament with this last week (i IDed in the finals to GR vial gobs, we played out the games though i lost 2-1 from not drawing anything to help me go off). anyway this list is solid (minus the SB) and I will be taking it to 5k this weekend in philly. Mindbreak trap will probly ruin my day if i run into it, so i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed. anyway thoughs, comments, criticisms and suggestions would be very appreciated. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by hwtcharger07

here is the belcher list I am currently running

1L gnarbelcher

Lands: 1
1 taiga

Creatures: 12
4 elvish spirit guide
4 simian spirit guide
4 tinder wall

Spells: 31
4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 dark ritual
4 land grant
4 seething song
4 burning wish
4 manamorphose
3 empty the warrens

artifacts: 16
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 chrome mox
4 goblin charbelcher

SB:
1x diminishing returns
1x empty the warrens
1x tendrils of agony
4x shattering spree
4x pyroblast
4x tombstalker

I think te maindeck here is pretty solid, manamorphose is needed, it is a must, it increases stormcount like nobodys buisness, fixes your mana, and draws you a card for free. Without manamorphose its near impossible to play dark ritual which speeds this deck up so much. I tied for first in a 20 man tournament with this last week (i IDed in the finals to GR vial gobs, we played out the games though i lost 2-1 from not drawing anything to help me go off). anyway this list is solid (minus the SB) and I will be taking it to 5k this weekend in philly. Mindbreak trap will probly ruin my day if i run into it, so i guess i will just have to keep my fingers crossed. anyway thoughs, comments, criticisms and suggestions would be very appreciated. Thanks.

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I'm assuming this is against a FOW-deficient meta?

The main other problem I have is that this deck even loses to a lot of decks that run any type of sweeper either main board or sideboard. 7 of your 11 win cons have a 2 turn clock after you cast it. Plenty of time for a sweeper.

I've started turning against this deck.

Also 12 and 13 win-con lists are a percentage or so more consistent of having either 1 or 2 win cons in the opening hand. It helps if you opponent is a duress player too.

You probably want some answers for Gaddock Teeg and Meddling Mage.

I run a Deathmark in the SB to wish for. But I usually mulligan until I have a win-con and 4 mana in my hand, then, if I go for the Belcher kill, I lay it on the table and let them sweat it until I get 3 mana. If I have the EtW, then I just let it ride.

Force is an issue, but I have made a few MD changes to the list above, namely, I have dropped black and am running 3 Land Grant, 3 Seething Song, 3 Goblin Welder and 3 Pyroblast. I find the Welders and the blasts help save your ass from time to time and you can do funky tricks with Welder.

One of my faves is lay a Welder with a Belcher in hand and see if it sticks. If he lands, the go for the LED, if that sticks, drop another artifact and then crack LED for 3 mana, discarding your hand. Weld Belcher out using the other artifact, and win.

If Welder gets countered, then play with the confidence they have one less counter in hand. Your blasts will help push this thru!

Dave

I'm somewhat partial to Ad Nauseam in Belcher lists with access to black mana. Might be worth considering.

That seems like a very dangerous proposition, as you have 7 cards with a CMC of 4 , 10-12 with a CMC of 3 and maybe 16 or so with a CMC of 2. So that's over half the deck with a 2+ cost, waaaay to high with Ad Nauseum, total suicide really!

Dave

I was playing a Counterbalance control deck the other day (no Daze), and my opponent was playing Belcher with a black splash. He was racing my Counterbalances and the only games I won was 1st turn FoW starts, and he actually powered through a few of those.

We played about 20 games, and I'm rather fascinated with it. I've never had issues with combo before with my control deck, and I've beaten Belcher countless times in the past, but this guys turn 1 combo percentile was like 75%. The only games where he didn't combo off by turn 2 at the latest was games where I hit him with FoW, and even in a couple of those, he still went off on turn 2 and won. In 2 games I hit him with double FoW, and I won both of those games.

As far as I know, he didn't run any disruption maindeck.

The biggest notable mention was Spoils of the Vault, which he used to find either the accel he needed, or the win condition he needed. Rather ruthless.

He didn't cast Empty the Warrens once, so I'm not sure if it was present in his list or not. All of his wins came from Belcher itself.

Another interesting spell he played was Birds of Paradise, and I remember that distinctively because I've never seen Birds of Paradise in Belcher before. Birds of Paradise was a sick t2 enabler, though.

Something like this, maybe?

1 Bayou
1 Taiga

4 Bird's of Paradise
4 Tinder Wall
2 Elvish Spirit Guide

4 Land Grant
4 Lotus Petal
4 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Seething Song

4 Spoils of the Vault
4 Burning Wish

4 Charbelcher

Honestly, I cannot remember what all I saw and didn't see. His deck was pretty damn good, though. Anyone have any clue what I'm talking about here? lol...

I doubt I'm 100% accurate as to how his deck was built, so this list might be whack. Hmm...

I would be interested in seeing his list too, sounds brutal! That said, I get a high percentage of first turn wins by knowing when I can go off with judicial mulliganing.

I havent tried Spoils, but I have seen several lists with that card in it. Seems like a very solid way to grab your win-con. I would play EtW in the SB if this card was good enough. It enables you to have hands with Spoils and the ability to generate 8 mana, but no other win-con, and Spoils for the win!

I would also reckon that he was running Simian Spirit Guide. I wonder how reliable his first turn birds was cast?

If you know this guy, I would really be interested in seeing his list!

Dave

He was just some random guy off MWS, but he was cool as hell.

The thing that got me was that he beat me more than I beat him. I ran a countermagic package of 4 Counterbalance, 4 Counterspell, and 4 Force of Will. I ran 4 Brainstorm and 4 Top as my (early) draw. The only times I beat him was with FoW in my opener, his turn 1 percentile was that crazy good.

The thing is, I had only 1 card (FoW) to really answer him, and otherwise he just smacked me around. Mulliganing for 1 specific card almost makes the matchup as bad as Ichorid for a blue-based control player (i.e mulliganing into Relic, etc).

Now of course, I didn't run Daze. FoW + Daze may likely screw him, I'm not sure. BoP seems like it helps out in the area of dodging Daze a little, but still. That's kinda sick if he can win t1 that often, t2 the latest (consistently), and only get beat by a t1 FoW/Daze, which he was still able to play through on a few occasions.

Spoils was his MVP. It helped guaruntee him a Belcher win everytime, which was so much more effective than an EtW would have been for him. That's kinda where BoP helped out I guess, by allowing him to Belcher ftw the following turn when the actual t1 win wasn't possible. Of course I didn't pack Needles SB, and he activated Belcher before my relevant artifact removal (4cc artifact) was able to be cast, so those t2 wins were essentially t1 wins anyway.

Spoils costing only B is nuts for a tutor, and the fact that it can grab ANY spell in the is so powerful. Grabbing anything means whatever missing piece you need to win, you get, whether that's anything from Dark Ritual, to LED, to Rite of Flame, to Belcher, wtfever.

I keep trying to recollect what he ran exactly, and I keep trying to logically mix around the numbers of each in my head. I'm still really up in the air, but I'm also trying to logically figure out on my own what would work best and with what numbers, too.

Another thing too, he rarely mulligan'd. Spoils must have been that good for him, or maybe BoP made it more stable, I have no friggin clue.

I know that a good mix of both red, green, and black spells is necessary for Chrome Mox, since all 3 colors are essential. The deck wants to be able to cast all 3 colors consistently.

I don't think I saw him cast much SSG/ESG, if any (I really can't remember).

I really wanna figure this out, build the deck, and take it for a spin. Anyone else with any experience with this style of 3c Belcher that wants to chime in and help me out? It's much appreciated.

Did you see him use Burning Wish at all? If so, what did he wish for? It will help me work out his deck a little.

Also, with a 3 colour list, was he running Manamorphose as a mana fixer?

Dave

I think I saw him Burning Wish into Tendrils once, and it did lethal, I just don't remember how he pulled it off.

Either way, the deck needs around 10-12 slots applicable for the kill maindeck to consistently have one to win with. I don't recall him using Infernal Tutor.

For starters, I know for a fact he had 4 Spoils of the Vault.

Beyond that, whatever the best 3rd kill option is would be the final slot. Keeping in mind color is important to, since a fair balance of all 3 colors would be important for Chrome Mox. I think Burning Wish is the best bet, although Empty the Warrens is so lackluster these days. Again, I think he used the Burning Wish to Tendrils me, but I don't know. Burning Wish for acceleration doesn't really seem to make lots of sense, since it costs 1R. Not really sure what the 3rd best tutor/kill would be, honestly.

I did not see Manamorphose. BoP and Tinder Wall were his mana fixers.

I also don't recall seeing ESG I don't think, so that's probably wrong too. -2 ESG +2 BoP for now, I think.

EDIT: After goldfishing, I'm thinking he HAD to run ESG/SSG, because I'm getting inconsistencies and he only had 1 or 2 in the 20 games we played.

Also, I'm guessing that there has to be more ways to convert into black mana, I'm thinking Manamorphose or Wild Cantor would work.

Like I said, I really don't remember what exactly he was playing, but I wanna keep fooling around with all kinds of different shit with the 3c list until I start goldfishing the deck and getting the results he was getting.

(I really highly doubt he got lucky ass hands all 20 games, I'm gonna spend all day trying to figure this out.)

EDIT: This is what I got goin on right now. Tell me what you think, honest opinions.

3c Belcher

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [4E] Birds of Paradise
2 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [LRW] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [DDC] Duress
SB: 1 [JU] Cabal Therapy
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast

I'm still curious if the BoP's wouldn't be better off as 2 each of the Guides, but so far that list is running rather smooth. The sideboard is just a random throw together for now.

I have been able to successfully use the Burning Wishes to Tendrils for 20+ several times now, once for 26 damage via Manamorphose chains. The deck loses it's access to MD uncounterable win via MD EtW, but I'm so sick of EtW in the format currently. MD Tendrils just seems to risky; Burning Wish feels appropriate for now. However, Burning Wish may be better as something else, like EtW or Tendrils (more than likely EtW).

Isn't Wild Cantor way better than BoP in this deck? You only need to get 1 mana from it per game so the sacrifice part isn't a problem. Wild Cantor is easier to cast, you can use him in the turn you play him (not for mana but as 0: Increase your storm count by 1) and he is more powerful if imprinted in Chrome Mox than BoP. I really can't see any advantages of BoP in this deck over Wild Cantor.

I would make the changes listed below, just for testing. Explanations are below:

// Lands
1 [b] Taiga
1 [b] Bayou

// Creatures
2 Wild Cantor
3 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
3 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
2 [TO] Cabal Ritual
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

I wasnt convinced by BOP, but Wild Cantor seems stronger. I am not sure it is needed as a 4-of, with already having Manamorphose. I think 6 fixers should do it. I have also reduced the Cabal Ritual count, as it isnt very good without Threshold and upped the Burning Wish back to 4, as you are going to use your BW's for dealing with problem cards such as Gaddock Teeg, counterbalance etc. I am using something like:

SB: 1 [TSP] Grapeshot
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [US] Ill-Gotten Gains
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Diminishing Returns (for helping along if you are short of Win-cons)
SB: 1 Deathmark (for those troublesome Hatebears!)
SB: 1 Gaea's Blessing (I see some ichorid, good at putting bridges back into their decks!)
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast

Have a play with that, and let us know the results!

Dave

you should really test the list i posted. I've found it to be far superior to the 2 land bayou build. I had 3 spoils main back then but cut them as i killed myself with them a few times (though thats mostly my bad luck). also they are impossible to cast with out manamorphose which i wasn't sunning at the time. Though i suppose i should test spoils now that my mana is better (even though i cut bayou).

to the poster who said 12-13 wins cons is better than what i run, i have, and know of only the 4 belcher, 3 etw (1 is SB) and 4 burning wish; for a total of 11. what else do you propose i run? were you speaking of spoils of the vault or something else, please elaborate. I'll post a new list after class.

Okay, I've been doing alot of work on this all morning, and I've come to some huge conclusions. Get ready for a big post.

3c Belcher Mini Primer

Prologue

Belcher first surfaced back when we still had the trifecta of Goblins, Threshold, and [Combo]. At the time of its printing, Empty the Warrens was insane. We has just gotten a ton of red rituals, and the format wasn't prepared to handle 8-12 1/1 Goblin tokens on turn 1-2. Since then, the format has obviously evolved. Belcher fell out of favor around the time when blue started seeing heavy play. The deck tended to fold to resolved FoW. The EtW kill also became answerable for many strategies, and for the most part, Belcher got shelved.

With the printing of Tarmogoyf, the whole format changed (obviously).

With Tarmogoyf, Goblins fell down from it's domination. Still a great deck, but no longer the best deck in the format. Even though everyone swares up and down that the format keeps speeding up, and that undercosted fatties like Tarmogoyf are a clear sign of that, I disagree. I think the format has actually slowed down.

Significantly more powerful cards keep getting printed and they are slightly higher up in the cc range (Krosan Grip, for example). CounterTop isn't low cc either, it costs (1) + (U)(U), and then an additional (1) to be active. I rarely ever see artifact/enchantment removal these days cost under 3 mana (again, Krosan Grip, for example). These sort of examples are what I mean by slower but more powerful cards seeing print/being used.

Traditional combo (IGGy Pop, for example) has evolved as well. It's definitely got some new tools; most recently, Ad Naeseum and Silence, and of course Wipe Away/Krosan Grip for the era of Counterbalance. However, these decks aren't running rampant right now because of spells like Counterbalance. Still very good decks, but easily hated out. Additionally, now that we are in an aggro heavy metagame in addition to aggro/control, Ad Naeseum itself has become a vulnerable engine for ANT.

The Present Age

We are currently in an aggro and aggro/control heavy metagame right now.

(When I refer to this as 3c Belcher, keep in mind that I really mean R/b Belcher with green splashed in for Land Grant's and Taiga/Bayou.)

I believe that 3c Belcher is the evolution of control for the current format/metagame for a number of reasons.

3c Belcher has an incredibly consistent turn 1 combo right now, with very few wins going past turn 2. This is relevant because it races most of the hate options out there. Also, the deck shifts its focus from the EtW kill, which is easily answerable by a large number of played spell these days, and goes back to its namesake: Goblin Charbelcher.

The (r)Evolution

To make this easier, I'll just briefly specify 3 lists of cards, and what this means for 3c Belcher.

What Goblin Charbelcher Has Problems With

Pithing Needle
Chalice of the Void
Trinisphere
Force of Will

I'd like to say that Pithing Needle is a big hoser for this deck. Luckily, Pithing Needle has fallen out of favor for many players. There are simply better answers for most things now, it's alot easier to remove these days than it was back when, and regardless it just sees less play than it used to.

There are a few other big threats too. Chalice of the Void is problematic. It can be dropped turn 1, and requires us to have an answer. Chalice @ 0 isn't nearly as devastating against us as it is against ANT, so Chalices' power is more limited to decks that can power it out for 1 on turn 1, but it's still a problem either way. Turn 1 Trinisphere's are even more problematic, and must be dealt with. Turn 1 Trinisphere's are less common, luckily. Lastly, FoW can still shut us down, too.

Other Possible Problems

Daze is only mildly effective against us. On the play, a turn 1 combo completely invalidates it. Even when the opponent is able to cast Daze, I've found that this deck often has excess mana sources, of whatever color it needs, so Daze is hit or miss. Additionally, the deck can get Dazed from 7 mana to 6 and still cast Belcher... it simply has to wait for the following turn to activate it, which I'll discuss a little later.

We still have the chance to either fizzle, or be put into death range from a bad Spoils of the Vault. This makes the deck a little bit more fair against aggro, but not really. The deck doesn't fizzle on its own often, and the aggro decks don't really have much time to put enough damage into the red zone to kill us under low life totals. Additionally, the deck doesn't always cast Spoils.

The Disadvantages of Empty the Warrens and Advantages of Goblin Charbelcher

With all that being said, every other form of hate that would have either rocked Goblin Charbelcher in days of old, or hate that directly effects current combo decks (like ANT) are far less effective against us.

First, I'll list the weaknesses of the old EtW route for today's metagame. EtW is clearly bad in most cases with today's aggro heavy metagame. Goblin Charbelcher circumvents these answers. The below list is just a small list of the many problems EtW faces:

Empty the Warrens Hate

Engineered Explosives
Pernicious Deed
Maelstrom Pulse
Firespout
Engineered Plague
Propaganda
Ghostly Prison
Tabernacle effects
Wrath of God (if we go off turn 2 on the draw or make 8 or less tokens)
Damnation (if we go off turn 2 on the draw or make 8 or less tokens)
Elves (any variant that quickly spams guys onto the field)
Goblins (Goblins isn't getting faster at swarming, pumping, etc)
Zoo (they can put enough guys into play to block enough before lethal)

That's not the entire list. Most decks these days run anti-aggro, and EtW falls victim to most of these answers. The fact that EtW (i.e combo) can potentially lose to decks it's supposed to beat (i.e aggro), is rather disturbing.

Now, hate that the turn 1-2 Charbelcher races:

What Goblin Charbelcher Races

Krosan Grip
Qasali Pridemage
Maelstrom Pulse
Vindicate
Oblivion Ring
Trygon Predator
Harmonic Sliver (for those that still play this)
Counterbalance (CounterTop)
Gaddock Teeg
Ethersworn Cannonist
Meddling Mage

3cc artifact removal comes online 1-2 turns too slow to be relevant. Active CounterTop is also 1-2 turns too slow to be relevant (although blind reveals can sometimes be a pain).

In the case of the hate bears, if the Belcher player is on the draw and doesn't drop Charbelcher until turn 2, those obviously aren't raced (same with a Counterbalance if its in a sweet blind reveal spot). Otherwise, rather than pack disruption, like traditional combo does these days (like ANT), we just race disruption.

So for the most part, our clock forces decks to either hope we get a horrible draw (+mulligans), have Chalice and/or Trinisphere (and be able to cast them soon enough), or be playing FoW. In any of these cases, the opponent must have said hate in their opening hand/turn 1 in order to shut us down, and occasionally, we can power through that hate. That's somewhat disturbing. Mulligan for FoW or I win? Sounds pretty good to me.

Deck Construction

What makes 3c Belcher so unique is its ability to focus on playing Goblin Charbelcher rather than Empty the Warrens, which has serious advantages, as listed above. A resolved, unactivated Goblin Charbelcher is almost just as good as a resolved, activated Goblin Charbelcher in the current metagame. Few players have an answer to a resolved Belcher on their turn 1 (Belcher player on the play), and few answers to a resolved on their turn 2 (Belcher player on the draw). Goblin Charbelcher is very resilient.

Secondly, black opens the deck up to the best ritual ever printed in Dark Ritual. Dark Ritual makes the deck increasingly faster and more consistent, and Spoils of the Vault is superior to Burning Wish for us. Spoils costs 1cc, which makes successfully combo'ing that much easier, and opens us up to have extra mana to play around Daze, or even Pyroblast the opponent's FoW postboard. Spoils grabs any spell we need in the entire deck and isn't restricted to a limited number of sideboard choices. Most importantly, spoils can grab accel when we already have a kill card in hand, whereas Burning Wish doesn't really have that option. Think of Spoils as our Vampiric Tutor/Demonic Tutor crossbreed; our Ad Naeseum, if you will.

Digging more into the deck itself, I'll explain a few card choices that have a few players puzzled:

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Isn't Wild Cantor way better than BoP in this deck? You only need to get 1 mana from it per game so the sacrifice part isn't a problem. Wild Cantor is easier to cast, you can use him in the turn you play him (not for mana but as 0: Increase your storm count by 1) and he is more powerful if imprinted in Chrome Mox than BoP. I really can't see any advantages of BoP in this deck over Wild Cantor.

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I had definitely considered Wild Cantor, but wanted to test Birds of Paradise first, since the opponent that spanked my ass royally (with this deck) used them. I agree that Wild Cantor is the better card here, but regardless, the role that either plays is a crucial one. Wild Cantor is easier to cast, being R/G (red being the important part), which is definitely relevant. Cantor can be used the turn it comes into play to act as a Manamorphose effect, which is relevant. It also pumps the storm count if you need to cast EtW/Tendrils, without taking away from mana production. If the deck can only generate enough mana to cast Belcher but not activate it, Cantor can be played the same turn and used as an additional mana source on the following turn to help activate it, which is important.

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I wasnt convinced by BOP, but Wild Cantor seems stronger. I am not sure it is needed as a 4-of, with already having Manamorphose. I think 6 fixers should do it. I have also reduced the Cabal Ritual count, as it isnt very good without Threshold and upped the Burning Wish back to 4, as you are going to use your BW's for dealing with problem cards such as Gaddock Teeg, counterbalance etc. I am using something like:

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Whether we run BoP or Cantor, 4 is necessary. Not every turn 1 Belcher is able to be activated, and having the ability to activate it the following turn is very important. The opponent will [usually] not have a way to answer Belcher on turn 2, but [usually] will on turn 3.

Cabal Ritual is exactly identical to Desperate Ritual (minus splice) when we don't have Threshold, and rediculously good when we do. So far, 4 SSG has been fine for me. The fact that Cabal Ritual adds to the storm count, whereas ESG does not, is relevant in the situations where we need to Burning Wish for a lethal Tendrils. Green is also an unecessary color for this deck, whereas black mana is far more important.

I feel that 2 Burning Wish has been the perfect number. If we experience hate bears postboard, we likely race them. If not, we can always attempt to Spoils for a Burning Wish (possibly suicidal). I'm now running 4 Grapeshot/Deathmark* postboard, so 3 come in and 1 stays out, giving us 3 maindeck removal for Spoils and 1 for Burning Wish, which gives huge consistency for finding one in a relevant span of time. Counterbalance will make casting and resolving Burning Wish difficult anyway, so it's simply better to try and race it in game 1 and bring in (4) Red Elemental Blasts in game 2 if you truly need to answer it.

*I'm still up in the air on whether to run Deathmark or Grapeshot. One one hand, Deathmark costs 1 mana less, which is relevant. On the other hand, Grapeshot is uncounterable and can kill multiple hate bears. We cannot generate enough storm to make Grapeshot a win condition, so it's a matter of uncounterability + mass removal vs cost. Mana color is largely a non-issue.

4/4/2 on Belcher, Spoils, Wish has been excellent in testing.

Since I've already tested with BoP and Grapeshot...

The Current List

3c Belcher

// Lands
1 [B] Taiga
1 [B] Bayou

// Creatures
4 [GP] Wild Cantor
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [MR] Seething Song
4 [DM] Dark Ritual
4 [TO] Cabal Ritual
2 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Spoils of the Vault
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 4 [A] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 4 [M10] Deathmark
SB: 1 [DDC] Duress

Sideboarding Strategy

Pretty simple, and I did briefly mention it. There are a few specific problems that we have to face, and so the sideboard reflects that. With both Spoils of the Vault and Burning Wish maindeck, we are able to max out on these answers. Doing so allows us to bring 3 of them into the maindeck while leaving 1 in the sideboard, so we effectively have 9 of each particular answer to deal with said problem (10 in the case of REB/Duress vs Blue). I'll add more specifics on what to drop for these as I compile more testing and results.

Epilogue

So in conclusion, for those of you that actually read that whole thing, I think this deck is the evolution of combo for our current metagame until we experience a metagame shift. It answers most of the current problems that traditional combo faces (like ANT); specifically, against aggro/control and/or decks playing CounterTop. At the same time, it still maintains its great matchups against everything else that was a great matchup.

Watch out for Pithing Needle is this deck does take off, since it's splashable for every sideboard (like Relic/Crypt are to Ichorid). Make sure you keep those Shattering Spree's handy.

How does it beat Force of Will?

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How does it beat Force of Will?

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By forcing the opponent to have Force of Will in their opening hand/have it turn 1. If they don't, they lose.

In the face of Force of Will, the deck can still combo off. Often, the deck has enough mana sources to cast a second tutor (or the Charbelcher that's in hand, after having had its Spoils countered). The deck generates a great deal of mana in its current configuration.

On rare occasions, the deck can stop combo'ing after something major gets countered (like Seething Song), rebuild in time before serious pressure is put on (Goyf, Counterbalance), and go off again ftw.

Postboard, 4 Red Elemental Blast (again, typically with excess mana sources) and 1 Duress to Burning Wish for are also good answers. Spending 1 mana on Red Elemental Blast often means activating Belcher on turn 2 rather than turn 1, which [usually] doesn't matter.

However, if FoW makes up the large majority of your particular metagame, would you be playing combo anyway? At least this deck would appear to fair better against decks with FoW than traditional storm (like ANT), which seems like a step in the right direction to me. Does this mean combo [3 Belcher] will make a comeback? Probably not, few people take me seriously anyway.

Hanni while I am happy you are interested in this deck i think you are making some crucial mistakes regarding belcher. mainly this is due to the inclusion of spoils of the vault, I have done a lot of testing with this and it is BAD, i have died so many times when i would have won if i had just waited a turn because of this card. Spoils also decreases you chances against agro builds significantly. Spoils in theory is good however when there is 52 cards in your library and all the belchers are on the bottom it is no fun, I guess it is fair to say you would lose this game anyway but losing to yourself is no great testament to belcher's power. also you are not running tinderwall this is also upsetting to me as tinder wall fixes mana, and blocks problem creatures like goblin lackey all day long, tiderwall also kill bridge from below, which is very relevant.

I agree that empty the warrens is sub par but cutting them for spoils is not the answer and will not increase you win percentage. also I believe you are missing out by not running the full 4 ESG 4 SSG this is necessary if you want to get off the turn 1 belch as it works the same as lotus petal except it isnt affected by chalice of the void or thorn of amethyst, both of which are very prevalent in legacy right now.

while birds is good against control, it is a magnet for their removal game 1 so your turn two belcher might turn into a turn never belcher. also it unlike the full compliment of spirit guides is crippled by chaliceOTV.

Not that I am opposed to progress/change/innovation but if you are concerned with making your opponent mulligan into answers try my build, it is solid maindeck though the sideboard needs a re-tooling. also cabal ritual is more or less always a black desperate ritual, though i would rather play desperate ritual because you can chain it into seething song, ETW, or burning wish. also burning wish into diminishing returns wins games you don't have business playing in.

Running a search on Recross the Paths didn't yield anything, has it seriously not been discussed at all? Whilst still a bit on the slow side, it DOES win 2 turns after stacking the library at the latest, and can grab protection/removal whilst going at it. It also abuses LED something fierce, even after the culling of the draw step trick. Granted it's kinda lackluster without thinning that Taiga beforehand, but on the tech side it CAN be cast in order to find that and then replace itself.

I've played it in the EtW spot for some mild success previously and would be interested in people's opinion about it (despite this deck being a bad choice in modern legacy et al). My list for reference:

RG Paths Belcher
// Lands
1 [B] Taiga

// Creatures
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide

// Spells
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
1 [OV] Meditate
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MOR] Recross the Paths
3 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
3 [9E] Seething Song

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [JU] Burning Wish
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 4 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 2 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [MM] Cave-In
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [6E] Infernal Contract
SB: 1 [LG] Chain Lightning

Generic Win Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/Lotus Petal/Street Wraith -> Goblin Charbelcher

Wins by Charbelcher on the spot and spits on Ethersworn Canonist. Postside the Lotus Petal can be replaced by a 1-of Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree, or Chain Lightning (with two extra mana available) to deal with whatever.

G1 Hate Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/LED/Street Wraith -> Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract (RRRR Floating) -> Burning Wish/Seething Song/LED/Charbelcher

The second Wish can grab Reverent Silence or Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree with an extra mana invested in order to remove assorted hate and continue winning by Belch from there.

*Most often achieved by putting Manamorphose on top of the library and winning the next turn with at least 3 mana on the table/on hand, but putting LED and a Street Wraith on top also works.

@ hwtcharger07

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Hanni while I am happy you are interested in this deck i think you are making some crucial mistakes regarding belcher. mainly this is due to the inclusion of spoils of the vault, I have done a lot of testing with this and it is BAD, i have died so many times when i would have won if i had just waited a turn because of this card. Spoils also decreases you chances against agro builds significantly. Spoils in theory is good however when there is 52 cards in your library and all the belchers are on the bottom it is no fun, I guess it is fair to say you would lose this game anyway but losing to yourself is no great testament to belcher's power. also you are not running tinderwall this is also upsetting to me as tinder wall fixes mana, and blocks problem creatures like goblin lackey all day long, tiderwall also kill bridge from below, which is very relevant.

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Spoils isn't much different than Ad Naeseum, which is also an engine card at the expense of life. Difference is, Ad Nauseum costs 5 mana and draws you cards, where Spoils costs 1 mana and tutors for a specific card.

Losing due to a bad Spoil's is no worse than fizzling with the combo do to other reasons. How many times do you find yourself 1 mana short of going Burning Wish -> Empty the Warrens? Seems like no less of a fizzle than killing yourself outright; if you cannot combo off fast enough with Belcher, you will more than likely lose anyway.

How often are you actually fizzling with Spoils, anyway? I very rarely lose more than 10 life with it. I don't think the 1 out of 10 fizzles that Spoils causes is worth running a worse version of the deck.

Let me explain it this way:

First and foremost, between Belcher and EtW, Belcher is the superior kill spell. Spoils grabs Belcher, Wish doesn't.

Secondly, Spoils is 1cc, Wish is 2cc. This is relevant for so many reasons. The deck is made up of mostly +1 (net) mana rituals. This means that it requires 1 less ritual effect to combo off with Spoils as opposed to Wish. Spoils -> Belcher costs 5, Wish -> EtW costs 6. Therefore, if you're only able to create 5 mana, you would normally be unable to combo with Wish into EtW, but you would be able to put Belcher into play. In cases where you do you have 6 mana, the extra 1 mana left over from Spoils into Belcher gives the deck resilience; the ability to dodge Daze, or cast REB (postboard) against FoW, is invaluable. Of course, in times where you have 7 mana available, rather than Wish into EtW with 1 leftover mana, you can simply win right on the spot with Belcher. These differences are not subtle.

Thirdly, Spoils and Wish serve two different functions. Both Spoils and Wish grab the kill spell as their primary function.

Wish can grab protection spells from the sideboard with its secondary function. Minor plus; more often than not, Wish is not needed to grab protection spells from the sideboard in game 1. People don't bring in their hate until games 2 and 3. I agree that in special cases, like opponent's with maindeck Chalice/Trini, Burning Wish is great. At the same time, I am still running 2 Burning Wish maindeck.

Spoils, on the other hand, enables you to combo easier/faster in game 1, by grabbing either the kill spell, or an additional accelerant. This versatility is invaluable, especially postboard. Being 1cc less, and being able to grab an extra accelerant, allows the deck to more easily cast REB's against opposing FoW's.

In games 2 and 3, bringing in 3x sideboard protection, keeping 1 sideboard protection in the sideboard, gives the deck access to 9 protection spells with the 4 Spoils + 2 Wish. With just 4 Wish, you get access to 4 protection spells.

All 3 of these make Spoils > Wish, without a doubt.

As far as Tinder Wall goes... all it is, is another +1 (net) accelerant, except it requires an initial green mana source rather than a black one. Blocking is an unecessary strategy in Belcher, because you should simply be combo'ing instead. The only spells that green offers, are ESG and Tinder Wall, two +1 (net) accelerants. ESG doesn't even generate any storm count.

Green is an inferior color to black, which offers a +2 (net) accelerant, and a +1 (net) accelerant that has the possibility to be a +3 (net) accelerant if you have Threshold. Threshold is achievable through cantripping/tutoring via Manamorphose and Spoils. Both black accelerants generate storm count. Green offers nothing else relevant besides those two accelerants, the black accelerants are superior to the green accelerants, and black offers the best tutor available with Spoils. Being in black also opens up Tendrils as a Wish target, which is superior to EtW when you can generate enough storm... and enough storm generation is possible through Manamorphose and Spoils (and the Wish, and the Tendrils itself, of course).

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I agree that empty the warrens is sub par but cutting them for spoils is not the answer and will not increase you win percentage. also I believe you are missing out by not running the full 4 ESG 4 SSG this is necessary if you want to get off the turn 1 belch as it works the same as lotus petal except it isnt affected by chalice of the void or thorn of amethyst, both of which are very prevalent in legacy right now.

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Yes, it will. ESG is +1 (net) mana. How does this accelerate the deck any different than casting Spoils for Dark Ritual? Spoils for Ritual is the same +1 (net) mana. Cabal Ritual, pre-thresh, is also a +1 (net) accelerant. The only point to ESG/SSG is that it gets your chain started, where the deck already has sufficient means to get the chain started, green mana from ESG is less valuable than red or black, and black offers you not only the best ritual ever printed (Dark Ritual), it also offers you the best tutor for this deck (Spoils). Dark Ritual is +2 (net) mana, and it's from a 1 mana initial investment, no less. ESG also doesn't build storm, which is mildly relevant for me since I run 2 Wish and a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils sideboard, and massively relevant for you, since 7 of your kill cards are storm-based (4 Burning Wish, 3 EtW).

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while birds is good against control, it is a magnet for their removal game 1 so your turn two belcher might turn into a turn never belcher. also it unlike the full compliment of spirit guides is crippled by chaliceOTV.

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I've already switched over to Wild Cantor for obvious reasons.

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Not that I am opposed to progress/change/innovation but if you are concerned with making your opponent mulligan into answers try my build, it is solid maindeck though the sideboard needs a re-tooling. also cabal ritual is more or less always a black desperate ritual, though i would rather play desperate ritual because you can chain it into seething song, ETW, or burning wish. also burning wish into diminishing returns wins games you don't have business playing in.

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I'd rather try my build, since fundamentally, the entire deck construction makes sense for the current metagame we're in, which is all detailed in my mini primer.

Exactly, Cabal Ritual is no worse than Desperate Ritual, and produces black mana for Spoils, or even Tendrils. The deck runs so many red accelerants that it has little lack of red funding, and with Cantor/Morphose/Grant/Mox/Petal, easily converts back and forth between red and black sources as necessary. This is what I did: R/g -> R/b. Essentially, I cut green for black, as black is the superior secondary color to red.

I've yet to find a need for Diminishing Returns so far. Doesn't mean it's not a possibility, though.

The only final question I have for my build is whether dropping 1 Cabal Ritual for 1 Burning Wish would be a better configuration.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

@ hwtcharger07
As far as Tinder Wall goes... all it is, is another +1 (net) accelerant, except it requires an initial green mana source rather than a black one. Blocking is an unecessary strategy in Belcher, because you should simply be combo'ing instead. The only spells that green offers, are ESG and Tinder Wall, two +1 (net) accelerants. ESG doesn't even generate any storm count.

Green is an inferior color to black, which offers a +2 (net) accelerant, and a +1 (net) accelerant that has the possibility to be a +3 (net) accelerant if you have Threshold. Threshold is achievable through cantripping/tutoring via Manamorphose and Spoils. Both black accelerants generate storm count. Green offers nothing else relevant besides those two accelerants, the black accelerants are superior to the green accelerants, and black offers the best tutor available with Spoils. Being in black also opens up Tendrils as a Wish target, which is superior to EtW when you can generate enough storm... and enough storm generation is possible through Manamorphose and Spoils (and the Wish, and the Tendrils itself, of course).

Yes, it will. ESG is +1 (net) mana. How does this accelerate the deck any different than casting Spoils for Dark Ritual? Spoils for Ritual is the same +1 (net) mana. Cabal Ritual, pre-thresh, is also a +1 (net) accelerant. The only point to ESG/SSG is that it gets your chain started, where the deck already has sufficient means to get the chain started, green mana from ESG is less valuable than red or black, and black offers you not only the best ritual ever printed (Dark Ritual), it also offers you the best tutor for this deck (Spoils). Dark Ritual is +2 (net) mana, and it's from a 1 mana initial investment, no less. ESG also doesn't build storm, which is mildly relevant for me since I run 2 Wish and a 1/1 split of EtW/Tendrils sideboard, and massively relevant for you, since 7 of your kill cards are storm-based (4 Burning Wish, 3 EtW).

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I test your Belcher version 30 times yesterday and I find some problems:

- You can't convert Black mana in Red mana. When your mana sources are only Lotus petal or Land Grant, Dark Ritual and the expensive red spells you can't chain the spells to produce mana. If you can't find a Petal and only have SSG and no mana-fixers you can't play Black Rituals. I took a lot of Mulligans because that. There aren't a black mana-fixer? Green and Red mana can be fixed, Black mana can't.

- Tinder Wall is a must have because it's flexible. It gives only +1 mana but it's RED mana. You need more cheap mana cards because you can't chain Dark or Cabal Rituals with expensive Red Rituals. You need a G to play it, but the same cards that give you B to play Dark Ritual can give you G to play Tinder (Land Grant, Lotus Petal, mana-fixers and Chrome Mox).

- I don't like Cabal Ritual. You get BBB for BR, and then you can't get R to continue chaining spells. I rarely have Threshold and if I get it, I have enough mana and don't need more. You can't play it without a mana-fixer or Dark Ritual and in both cases you can play Spoils without play Cabal. I'll put Tinder Wall in this slot. You can play Lotus Petal (G)-> Tinder (RR) -> Mana-Fixer (RB) -> Dark Ritual (RBBB) -> Desperate Ritual (BBRRR)or Setthing Song (BRRRRR)-> Belcher(B or BR) -> Spoils for LED. But can't DO it if the Tinder was a Cabal.

- Spoils it's great and a must have. You would die for it (never in my 30 test games), but you can win with only 5 manas + Charbelcher + Spoils if you look for LED. If you get FOWed, getting 5 manas another time it's very easy with this deck.

- Chrome Mox is terrible. Two cards for a single mana? When I played it I always need a second turn to activate Belcher. ESG would be better used only for colorless costs. His green mana can be fixed, black mana can't. And protect you vs Chalice at 0.

My suggestions until we find a Black Fixer (untested):
-4 Chrome Mox, -4 Cabal Ritual
+4 Elvih Spirit Guide, +4 Tinder Wall

Recross the Paths must be tested. I played Solidarity/Spring Tide and arranged all my library with Flash of Insight give me a lot of games. If you play Recross, you can add a single card as protection to combo in your second turn and put in the pile. And if win the clash, easy if you rearrange all your library and put a Belcher, you can use it to imprint a Chrome Mox.

If you don't like it maindeck, can try it in the sideboard as wish target.

EDIT:

Quote:

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Generic Win Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/Lotus Petal/Street Wraith -> Goblin Charbelcher

Wins by Charbelcher on the spot and spits on Ethersworn Canonist. Postside the Lotus Petal can be replaced by a 1-of Reverent Silence, Shattering Spree, or Chain Lightning (with two extra mana available) to deal with whatever.

G1 Hate Pile: Recross -> (Mana/Manamorphose*) -> Meditate -> LED/LED/LED/Street Wraith -> Burning Wish -> Infernal Contract (RRRR Floating) -> Burning Wish/Seething Song/LED/Charbelcher

The second Wish can grab Reverent Silence or Chain Lightning/Shattering Spree with an extra mana invested in order to remove assorted hate and continue winning by Belch from there.

*Most often achieved by putting Manamorphose on top of the library and winning the next turn with at least 3 mana on the table/on hand, but putting LED and a Street Wraith on top also works.

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Wow, Doomsday Piles in Belcher cheaper. I must try it.
But, I think that you must put a Recross as wish Target and add the Wish count to 4. It's 2 more mana, but you have 7 Recross (3 for 2G and 4 for 3GR) to play with.
And can try a single crash for a Spree in the sideboard. You can't wish for it, but can put it in the pile for the second wish and cost no mana. Some for Thunderclap vs Chain Lightning.

That build I posted isn't optimized by far tbh, and I'm way too lazy/impatient to run the math/gauntlet as is. 4 Wish Preboard may indeed be the correct choice (and safer since it doesn't need Grant/Taiga beforehand to be effective), but it will decrease the freak T1/T2 wins by Recross some. Basically having access to 3 non-LED mana+Manamorphose or LED+Wraith means Recross wins on the spot, having access to any of those 4 means it wins the next turn and having none means it wins after 2 turns.

May be worth it, iunno. Don't really play this deck anymore as it's, well, boring.

.... I really don't know why there is that much discussion going on out of nowhere about this deck... anyway - I didn't read every single massive wall of text tbh, but there where some points that catched my eye:

*BoP... 3 words - are you serious :confused: I mean... really... even Cantor isn't the best choices, and BoP is even worse.

*cutting ETW: I honestly can't imagine this deck working without that card MD. Sure, it's not the most consistant way of winning and really fragile, but nevertheless - you simply can't constantly win with Belcher+Spoils all alone, so there has to be another option. Otherwise you'll loose too many games due heavy mulling.

*reducing the BW count: same as above, beside ETW it fetches Diminishing Return, which becomes a really strong card in combination with mana-heavy hands.

*Tinder Wall: after playing about 1k games with my Belcher list (playing that deck since 3 years now in some casual rounds :cool: ) I would sort all mana producing spells this way: LED/DarkRit/Petal > Rite of Flame/Land Grant > SSG/ESG/Tinder Wall > Seething Song > Mox/Desperate
....to summarize, before I would reduce the number of Tinder Walls I would cut Seething Songs, Desperate Rituals and reduce the number of Moxen down too 3.


Just for info, this is the list I'm playing since Manamorphose got printed:

4 Belcher
4 Wish
3 ETW
3 Spoils

4 DarkRit
4 LED
4 Petal
4 Rite of Flame
4 Land Grant
4 Manamorphose
4 ESG
4 SSG
3 Mox
1 Taiga

Those cards are my auto-includes, which leaves me 10 open slots to fill up. Sadly the powerlevel decreases significantly with those 10 cards...

a 4th Mox (this really sucks, you never want 2 of them in your opener)
4 Seething Song (honestly... this one sucks compared too the other ones above, but somehow it has to become 60 cards...)

This leaves 5 open slots, that consist of any combination of those cards: Desperate Ritual, Cantor, a 2nd Taiga and sometimes a Bayou.

SB is more easily build, my personal auto includes are ETW, Diminishing Return, Tendrils and Goblin War Strike. The rest can be filled with Magus of the Moon, Xantids, Blasts, Spree and additional Wish targets.

Hope this helps, greetz
surly

If you guys want a quick glass-cannon deck... why not play the infernal contract/cruel bargain/tendrils combo?

It had over a 60% first turn goldfish... by far the quickest and most consistent glasscannon out there.