Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skyout
Watch the last SCG coverage where he locked out two storm players in the finals and tell me that the deck doesn't do anything. Or better yet talk to the Ross who just posted.
That is anecdotal evidence and does not change the fact that the deck is both clunky and low on relevant cards. Sure, you're not beating Gaddock Teeg game one, but just one Chalice is not that hard to beat and they're often forced to cast Confidant which only makes it easier to kill them. Even after sideboarding, there are only two Thoughtseizes, so they're relying on Mox Diamond to do meaningful things.
You are playing the odds here though, and that always feels much worse than being in control of things. When you play against the deck three times and lose every time, it looks like there is nothing you can do, but the truth is that you're much more likely to win than they are.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
All you need is fast hand or discard and being on play. Sure they sometimes win via win a roll, turn 1 chalice for 1, turn 2 Teeg. But after sb you have answers, mostly you should win g2 (being on play - same rule as above), then g3 you need hand with decay, they cant develop hate pernaments so fast as you can go of - just eot kill hate, then go off or discard the rest of the hate.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I don't like the multi-EtW against DRS based decks
Quote:
Originally Posted by
JamieW89
Yes, that's the line I was looking for. But you (and Togores) weren't really my target audience :P.
sorry to spoil the fun =/ .. I feel tempted by all the CoVs at the SCG to play it again, it's out of my 76 for more than a year
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
Out of curiosity, what do you think is the worst matchup?
I can give you 2 examples out of my LGS
1, Burn deck with 4 Eidolon, 4Pillar, SSG and sweepers (havent seen this one some time)
2, W hatebear deck with 8 Thalia, 7-8 Wasteland, 4 Leonin Arbiter and 3 Relic MD, SB? obv. Mindbreak trap, Rip and Cannonist because why not...
serious MUs - Thalia + Teeg MUs are no fun, I mean stupid in general, I don't feel intimidated by MUD because I don't face it and If I do the players are not very good or lucky... the worst MU I face is a well built Burg with very competent player (and the W hate deck...)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jonathan Alexander
What are you talking about? The deck doesn't do anything.
when it does it's not nice, like all the nonU decks the can have anything from blanks to all the hate but are better set up to brutal starts, T1 double disruption is very annoying if they can pull it off... btw. T1 on play Gaddock Teeg anyone? (to add insult to the injury off 3 Diamonds and a GSZ the time it happend to me...) ... the thing is I also think it should be clunky and unimpressive most of the time (like my usual MUD matches) but I'm subject to the opposite more than I'd like to
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I'm not as worried about 2 mana lock pieces as most people here (that icludes Chalice, Thalia, Teeg, Revoker, whatever). Those matchups are often a coinflip pre board and actually get slightly better for us post board.
You just have to keep hands that either goldfish on turn 2 or turn 3 with at least turn 2 Therapy. I can't remember exactly if it was Ross or Caleb, but I'm pretty sure I've seen hands kept against the later winner of the tournament that had like 3 cantrips. That's how that deck beats Storm, if the Storm player is durdling around playing cantrips. A hand like that is great against BUG decks and other decks with discard, but in a matchup with tons of 2 mana hatepieces, you should expect to be able to cast no more than one cantrip until the first hate piece comes down. In my eyes that makes a hand with 3 cantrips a pseudo mull to 5 already, which means I would have mulled that hand in the first place. I personally also board out up to all 4 Ponders against Chalice.dec. Load up on business (extra Storm spells or tutors out of the board) and try to race them.
Sure, they can win even if we're on the play if they draw Mox plus hate in teir opener. Just as we can also win on the draw if we have a turn 1 kill or a turn 1 discard spell. That evens out. Keating had a lot going right for him in the top 4 to beat two Storm decks in a row. Both Storm players just didn't get the common draws his deck can't beat. He also topdecked substantially better than both Caleb and Ross. That just happes sometimes, but it doesn't mean that this 4-color midrange deck is suddenly a terrible matchup for Storm.
If there's a matchup with Chalice I'm worried about, it's MUD. They have way more ways to drop a game-ender on turn 1.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Izor
I'm not as worried about 2 mana lock pieces as most people here (that icludes Chalice, Thalia, Teeg, Revoker, whatever). Those matchups are often a coinflip pre board and actually get slightly better for us post board.
You just have to keep hands that either goldfish on turn 2 or turn 3 with at least turn 2 Therapy. I can't remember exactly if it was Ross or Caleb, but I'm pretty sure I've seen hands kept against the later winner of the tournament that had like 3 cantrips. That's how that deck beats Storm, if the Storm player is durdling around playing cantrips. A hand like that is great against BUG decks and other decks with discard, but in a matchup with tons of 2 mana hatepieces, you should expect to be able to cast no more than one cantrip until the first hate piece comes down. In my eyes that makes a hand with 3 cantrips a pseudo mull to 5 already, which means I would have mulled that hand in the first place. I personally also board out up to all 4 Ponders against Chalice.dec. Load up on business (extra Storm spells or tutors out of the board) and try to race them.
Sure, they can win even if we're on the play if they draw Mox plus hate in teir opener. Just as we can also win on the draw if we have a turn 1 kill or a turn 1 discard spell. That evens out. Keating had a lot going right for him in the top 4 to beat two Storm decks in a row. Both Storm players just didn't get the common draws his deck can't beat. He also topdecked substantially better than both Caleb and Ross. That just happes sometimes, but it doesn't mean that this 4-color midrange deck is suddenly a terrible matchup for Storm.
If there's a matchup with Chalice I'm worried about, it's MUD. They have way more ways to drop a game-ender on turn 1.
Most sensible analysis I've read in this thread for a while
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skyout
Watch the last SCG coverage where he locked out two storm players in the finals and tell me that the deck doesn't do anything. Or better yet talk to the Ross who just posted.
I played against the Abzan/Loam/Chalice hatebear deck at the open (the teammate of the guy who won the whole thing) - I easily won in two games after discarding chalice from his hand in both games. I think the matchup, as described, is probably closer to 50/50, bc chalice and teeg are that strong against us, but it is definitely winnable. -Brandon
[DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
hi guys, in Italy, this weekend, is time for "Nebraska War" , one of our biggest event along the year. Thinking about the meta i'm gonna faced, surely miracles will be the most played deck among the field.
My question is, usually, what cards you remove against miracles?
My current list is:
G.A.N. Grinding ad Nauseam
Main deck
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 badlands
1 tropical island
1 island
1 swamp
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 scalding tarn
(15)
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 gitaxian probe
1 sensei's divining top
4 lotus petal
4 lion's eye diamond
3 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
1 rain of filth
4 infernal tutor
2 past in flames
2 tendrils of agony
1 ad Nauseam
(60)
Sideboard
4 abrupt decay
3 dark confidant
2 xantid swarm
2 chain of vapor
2 disfigure
1 empty the warrens
1 bayou
Counting that I would like to board in 4 decays, 3 confidants, 2 swarms, empty and the bayou, for a total of 11 cards, what would you takes out?
I was thinking about something like, -1 badlands, -1 pif, -1 cabal ritual, -1 duress, -1 ad Nauseam, -2 lotus petals, -1 ponder... aaaand I'm stuck here, missing three slots. Any suggestions?
Also talking about sideboard, what you guys think about cutting the badlands for a main deck bayou and rising up at two empty in the side?
Forgive me for my poor English!! ^^ Thank you all in advance, have a great day!
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I've encountered the chalice/loam with a white splash deck online a lot recently and have had good success against it. I side like this:
-1 Dark Petition
-4 Cabal Therapy
-3 Duress
-1 Preordain
-1 Rain of Filth
-1 Gitaxian Probe
+1 Ad Nauseam
+4 Abrupt Decay
+3 Chain of Vapor
+1 Rushing River
+2 Tropical Island
The only nonstandard thing I'm doing in my sideboard that affects this matchup is a Rushing River (which is also fine vs Miracles) and I have slightly more lands postboard than most 17 instead of 15 or 16.
My full list below:
// 2015Q4 Storm
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
2 Dread of Night
2 City of Solitude
2 Tropical Island
I don't like mulling for lack of lands, so I'm a little higher. I haven't had very good luck with Massacre over the last year or so, and thus no longer play it. Likewise, Xantid Swarm hasn't been worth it without seeing a lot of SnT decks in the metagame. City of Solitude helps greatly against Miracles (and it's fine anywhere you think you can swing it; I bring it vs SnT since Omni has disappeared). Abrupt Decay is the best answer to Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor is the best answer to Eidolon while still being fine against hatebears. Dread of Night is a card that I'd like more of due to its effect vs cost, but DnT seems to be on the downswing. Dread of Night #1 does so much work that drawing 1 is a very big deal in the right matchups.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
The only nonstandard thing I'm doing in my sideboard that affects this matchup is a Rushing River (which is also fine vs Miracles) and I have slightly more lands postboard than most 17 instead of 15 or 16....2 Tropical Island
Rushing River's a pretty cool card. Why are you running it instead of, say, Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's? I guess the two pros that come to mind are that you can take out two hatepieces at a time even if they have different names and types, and three mana is harder for a Chalice to hit. That said, though, three mana seems like a lot, but with a lot of lands, you may not have trouble with it.
Speaking of lands, I've had trouble with flooding even with only 15, but I hope this plan works for you. In what matchups/situations have you felt the need for all 17?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
I don't like mulling for lack of lands, so I'm a little higher. I haven't had very good luck with Massacre over the last year or so, and thus no longer play it. Likewise, Xantid Swarm hasn't been worth it without seeing a lot of SnT decks in the metagame. City of Solitude helps greatly against Miracles (and it's fine anywhere you think you can swing it; I bring it vs SnT since Omni has disappeared). Abrupt Decay is the best answer to Counterbalance, and Chain of Vapor is the best answer to Eidolon while still being fine against hatebears. Dread of Night is a card that I'd like more of due to its effect vs cost, but DnT seems to be on the downswing. Dread of Night #1 does so much work that drawing 1 is a very big deal in the right matchups.
Agreed on almost all counts. However, I'm becoming less and less enamored of Dread of Night because needing to find two is a problem for dealing with Gaddock, Canonist, Leonin Arbiter, etc. Of course, it stops Mom and a ton of other haters, so it might be a good thing to keep around, but I'm probably cutting back to two. Disfigure is super handy and can hit a wider variety of targets.
One thing I feel like I should mention (you may know this, but casual readers probably don't) is that Counterbalance's ability is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, so City of Solitude can only hinder a Miracles player by shutting down Top and stopping them from casting. It doesn't stop them from spinning the top during their turn and counterflipping, say, a 1- or 2-mana spell to stop our combo.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
Rushing River's a pretty cool card. Why are you running it instead of, say, Echoing Truth or Hurkyl's? I guess the two pros that come to mind are that you can take out two hatepieces at a time even if they have different names and types, and three mana is harder for a Chalice to hit. That said, though, three mana seems like a lot, but with a lot of lands, you may not have trouble with it.
3s are harder for Counterbalance to flip, and I bring it in against Miracles. Hitting two different pieces of hate (not necessarily bears, but Chalice + Bear, 2x Artifact, CB + Mage, or Bear + Vial) has been crucial a few times. I've considered trying to rely less on Ad Nauseam in some matchups so as to be able to construct the deck to play more Rushing Rivers (as it's often one of the best cards to draw postboard).
Quote:
Speaking of lands, I've had trouble with flooding even with only 15, but I hope this plan works for you. In what matchups/situations have you felt the need for all 17?
I like lands against Delver and against Miracles. They're also handy against the Chalice decks (which tend to have Wasteland). I very rarely, if ever, lose to RUG if I don't get mana screwed by Stifle/Wasteland.
Quote:
Agreed on almost all counts. However, I'm becoming less and less enamored of Dread of Night because needing to find two is a problem for dealing with Gaddock, Canonist, Leonin Arbiter, etc. Of course, it stops Mom and a ton of other haters, so it might be a good thing to keep around, but I'm probably cutting back to two. Disfigure is super handy and can hit a wider variety of targets.
Disfigure is both hit by Mother of Ruins and doesn't handle the second Thalia. I don't play Dread of Night to deal with Canonist and Teeg, that's why I'm playing Chain of Vapors and Rushing River. Vyrn's Wingmare, Thalia, and Mom are more than enough to justify Dread of Night if you expect to be playing against D&T.
I have very little doubt that I'd always play Slaughter Pact before Disfigure. The only reasonable thing to Disfigure that you can't Slaughter Pact is Deathrite Shaman. I don't ever really want to kill that anyway.
One thing I feel like I should mention (you may know this, but casual readers probably don't) is that Counterbalance's ability is a triggered ability, not an activated ability, so City of Solitude can only hinder a Miracles player by shutting down Top and stopping them from casting. It doesn't stop them from spinning the top during their turn and counterflipping, say, a 1- or 2-mana spell to stop our combo.[/QUOTE]
Playing through a CB on some random CMC on your turn is a reasonable thing to do. It's not guaranteed, but you can test with 0 or 1 and expect to be able to win a majority of the games. Further, this isn't something that gets STP'd, Flusterstormed, or Pyroblasted. In addition to stopping SDT+CB from being a total lock, it also stops them from EOT Entreat being able to surprise get ya as well as stopping Snapcasters (and to a lesser extent VCliques) plus the obvious countermagic.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
My full list below:
// 2015Q4 Storm
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
3 Duress
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Rain of Filth
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Dark Petition
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Rushing River
2 Dread of Night
2 City of Solitude
2 Tropical Island
Do you think having 61 cards strengthens the deck, or is it just so you can fit everything you want. I've been wanted to run 7 discard main, but can't figure out what I want to cut and was considering just running 61.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dr_D
Do you think having 61 cards strengthens the deck, or is it just so you can fit everything you want. I've been wanted to run 7 discard main, but can't figure out what I want to cut and was considering just running 61.
I wouldn't go up to 61. For some decks it's actually not much of a problem (I went undefeated at a local with an accidentally 61-card Dredge deck), but we're already doing a balancing act to try to hit our tutors and mana acceleration. How many lands are you running at this point? Preordains and Tops? I'm still juggling a fifteenth between main- and sideboard.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Ronald Deuce
I wouldn't go up to 61. For some decks it's actually not much of a problem (I went undefeated at a local with an accidentally 61-card Dredge deck), but we're already doing a balancing act to try to hit our tutors and mana acceleration. How many lands are you running at this point? Preordains and Tops? I'm still juggling a fifteenth between main- and sideboard.
I play 15 lands, and I've been playing 1 preordain and 1 top so I can fit 9 rituals. My 61st card would be the seventh discard. Like Slosh said, the current trend of running 14 lands with 2 island is people netdecking Caleb Scherer.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Anyone have last-minute sideboard advice for me? I'm expecting a metagame that's a bit light on Miracles and heavy on Delver, especially Grixis. Right now I have sleeved up:
3 Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Chalice)
2 Xantid Swarm (Miracles, Show and Tell)
1 Tropical Island (Miracles, Chalice, Show and Tell, Loam)
2 Chain of Vapor (Hatebears, Miscellaneous)
2 Disfigure (Deathrite Shaman, Hatebears)
2 Dread of Night (Death and Taxes)
3 Empty the Warrens (Delver, maybe Miracles)
I plan to play something like the Scherer maindeck with the singleton Sensei's Divining Top. (1 Tendrils, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Dark Petition.)
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
Anyone have last-minute sideboard advice for me? I'm expecting a metagame that's a bit light on Miracles and heavy on Delver, especially Grixis. Right now I have sleeved up:
3 Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Chalice)
2 Xantid Swarm (Miracles, Show and Tell)
1 Tropical Island (Miracles, Chalice, Show and Tell, Loam)
2 Chain of Vapor (Hatebears, Miscellaneous)
2 Disfigure (Deathrite Shaman, Hatebears)
2 Dread of Night (Death and Taxes)
3 Empty the Warrens (Delver, maybe Miracles)
I plan to play something like the Scherer maindeck with the singleton Sensei's Divining Top. (1 Tendrils, 1 Past in Flames, 1 Ad Nauseam, 2 Dark Petition.)
In a delver heavy metagame I'd always make room for a copy of Carpet of Flowers.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
3 Abrupt Decay (Miracles, Chalice)
2 Xantid Swarm (Miracles, Show and Tell)
1 Tropical Island (Miracles, Chalice, Show and Tell, Loam)
2 Chain of Vapor (Hatebears, Miscellaneous)
2 Disfigure (Deathrite Shaman, Hatebears)
2 Dread of Night (Death and Taxes)
3 Empty the Warrens (Delver, maybe Miracles)
3x Empty is great. I second adding Carpet of Flowers. I'd replace Swarm with that.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
I honestly don't understand what situations Carpet of Flowers is supposed to be good in. I get that it can shut off Daze and/or Spell Pierce sometimes, but that doesn't seem that great. It doesn't help much against Stifle. Can anyone elaborate on the card a bit, or link to a game video I can study where Carpet is clutch?
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
I honestly don't understand what situations Carpet of Flowers is supposed to be good in. I get that it can shut off Daze and/or Spell Pierce sometimes, but that doesn't seem that great. It doesn't help much against Stifle. Can anyone elaborate on the card a bit, or link to a game video I can study where Carpet is clutch?
N.B.: I'm no expert, and I'm still learning how to play this deck.
With that having been said, perhaps I spoke too soon. People seem hot on Carpet and Xantid, but I've been having a bit of trouble with the added green cards that aren't Abrupt Decay. You're right that Carpet is excellent against Force Spike clones, and I thought it looked like a good accelerant against blue decks generally, but I'm not convinced it really helps that much. Seems like a great theoretical addition against decks with Islands, but there's no guarantee the extra mana will get us anywhere. Aside from helping us pay for parking versus soft counters, the thing that appealed to me for a while was that it can help us build up mana for a late-game combo (i.e., third try at Storming up after lots of Force, Hymn, etc.), but I've never seen the deck get far enough that it would be a real boon, especially when compared to cards that actively punch through threats. I feel like Xantid Swarm has the same problem: it gave me my one natural Tendrils so far, but that was because it got countered (+2 Storm!), so it's not that big a help against a lot of decks that can zero us if we don't have removal (Miracles) and I've never seen it do anything on the field (again, I'm not an experienced Stormer). I'd also be interested in some input on how/whether to use the two cards, so please, if I've missed something, let me know!
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skyout
Punishing Blue
A deck called Punishing Blue should:
1. Play Punishing Fire
2. Be blue
4c Loam that plays everything but blue is not that deck. That name always was, and still is, stupid and should be scrapped. Please do so.
Re: [DTB] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo
Quote:
Originally Posted by
thefringthing
I honestly don't understand what situations Carpet of Flowers is supposed to be good in. I get that it can shut off Daze and/or Spell Pierce sometimes, but that doesn't seem that great. It doesn't help much against Stifle. Can anyone elaborate on the card a bit, or link to a game video I can study where Carpet is clutch?
The two decks in particular where Carpet is a solid addition are RUG Delver and Miracles, and its decent against BURg delver variants as well. The value of running carpet varies on the matchup, but in particular:
1. When the opponent is targeting your graveyard with Rest in Peace or DRS, Carpet will generally provide more value than a cabal ritual.
2. When playing against stifle and wasteland, resources can be tight. Carpet can sometimes give you the extra few mana you need to get over the hump and go off, despite having your resources restricted.
Additionally, I've found that subpar opponents won't play appropriately against it; i.e. Dazing to remove an island of the field of play/not fetching blue sources. I've found that generally, unless you need to play it early, you should hold carpet to gain value, so your opponents will play more lands.
All that being said, I have been playing carpet for quite a while as a two of in my board, but have not been thrilled with it recently. The amount of RUG delver has decreased in the local meta's, and there are certainly more impactful cards that can be played in the miracles matchup (Dark Confidant comes to mind...). I'm not convinced its excellent in the Grixis matchup as of yet either. More testing to come...
-Brandon