Figured you'd be like "if this was a prime time.."
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Figured you'd be like "if this was a prime time.."
GP Brisbane tomorrow, I just finished putting the old girl back together. Whenever it comes down to money on the line, this is still here I feel most at home. Good to be home.
EDIT: good luck, Dice, good to see you back!
Wanted to play a Nic Fit-brew, but still missed somd cards, so brought my good ol' RGCL. Went 3-0 tonight. Not much to say, other than TT continue to amaze me. My MU were:
Miracles 2-1 (boarded 3 TT, 3 K-Grip, and 4 CotV)
BUG 2-0 (boarded 4 K-Grip, and 2 CotV)
ANT 2-1 (boarded 4 CotV, 4 TT, and 2 K-Grip -a mistake-)
I'm not always sure if I board correct. Obvious the two K-Grips vs ANT were bad. I want to sqeeze TT in a lot of MU's, she is bonkers. Think I'm going to write my SB'ing on a piece of paper.
2nd time playing this deck after building it. coming from modern so lots of cards i don't know.
learning the format and I'm really bad at this deck.
1st round: Bye
2nd round: BUGW ?? He had lots of basics and I'm not running ports. He resolves a Bob, I wasteland all his duals, and GQ 5 of his basics, but he manages to get another Bob eventually, and I'm beat down with no outs in the yard from loam.
Side in trackers and 3 grips. Mulligan to 6 looking for one, settle on exploration, mox diamond, depths, k grip, wooded foothills, and Life from the loam.
i get the loam engine going but don't loam into wasteland. I see a couple ghost quarters but those don't help against his deck. I dredge lots of trash, and eventually get two maze of iths. Those don't matter, eventually i get beat by deathrite shamans exiling my punishing fires, my gambles, and my crop rotations and i don't find combo.
3rd: death and taxes? it had fauna shaman, SFM, deathrites. two mox diamonds early and i push for the combo. it gets exiled. he eventually stabilizes with revoker, sfm, other stuff.. i lose because i was greedy with combo.
i side in 3 tireless trackers and 3 kgrips. game two: i keep a durdly hand with kgrip, mox diamond, wooded foothills x2, dark depths, life from the loam, grove of the burnwillows. i play loam off the bat, he plays deathrite. i loam once, see mox diamond, gamble, exploration in the yard. not sure what to do.. he starts exiling stuff with deathrite.. eventually plays 3 deathrites and i get hated out of the yard. start drawing to find action, but nothing comes up. no combo or acceleration pieces. eventually i die to a natural order getting a progenitus.
4th: guy dropped so i left.
left pretty frustrated, partly not knowing the cards/matchups and mainly not knowing the deck at all. also, hating deathrite shaman.
this is the list i brought:
main:
4 Life from the Loam
4 Ghost Quarter
4 Wasteland
4 Gamble
3 Dark Depths
4 Mox Diamond
4 Crop Rotation
4 Thespian's Stage
1 Snow-Covered Forest
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Punishing Fire
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Barbarian Ring
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Molten Vortex
4 Exploration
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Taiga
1 Stomping Ground (saving for Taigas, i know -_-)
3 Maze of Ith
1 Riftstone Portal
Sideboard:
1 Karakas
4 Krosan Grip
3 Tireless Tracker
2 Sphere of Resistance
1 Trinisphere
1 Zuran Orb
1 Sejiri Steppe
1 Sylvan Library
1 Ancient Tomb
i feel like no matter how many videos you watch of people playing this deck, everything just feels foreign until you play legacy more. The table next to me, someone was going off, winning on turn 1, whereas other games i'm 10 turns in and getting out-prisoned by revoker and tax effects. Toto, I've a feeling we're not in modern anymore.
Welcome supergecko! RG Lands is definitely a tough deck to pilot early on, especially if you're new to Legacy. The hardest aspect of the deck is knowing when to switch styles between prison and combo. In that regard, knowing the matchups and reading the board state is how you know when to shift gears. Sometimes you get unlucky and you dredge nothing, it's tough but there's not much you can do about that.
I probably would have kept the two hands you mentioned, so I don't see any fault of yours there. That BUGW deck I'm not really sure what that is, but if they have active Bobs, lots of basics, and Deathrite out, I probably wouldn't be too concerned about locking them out of mana since it sounds like a losing battle. Also one thing to keep in mind is that sometimes dredging isn't your best option. While it's true that it'll let you see three cards, in many cases you'll get more looks if you draw one card. For instance, say you're looking for Wasteland. If you draw instead of dredge, you have the possibility of drawing Wasteland, Crop Rotation, or Gamble (12 cards) as opposed to dredge, which only the Wasteland would be an acceptable pick. Similarly, if you need to get creature removal, drawing gives you the chance of Punishing Fire, Molten Vortex, Gamble, Barbarian Ring, or Crop Rotation (for Ring).
Random notes on your list but unless you meta has a lot of Blood Moon effects, Riftstone Portal can come out. I love the card but it's not as effective as you'd like most of the time. Instead, try including a Bojuka Bog, which has applicability against a huge range of decks. I'm also not a huge fan of running only three Dark Depths, but some people will do so. Sejiri Steppe also isn't a great option, although it's a staple in Turbo Depths, in general RG Lands is able to easily recur the combo, making it less important to protect your token. I suggest including a Kozilek's Return, since it's great against D&T as well as random Deathrites, Bobs, and Delvers.
Keep practicing, it's an extremely rewarding deck to play!
Hmm interesting.. yeah I think a lot of times I dredged what I would have loved to draw. Thanks for the tips on those cards, I think the inclusion of the 4th depths would have definitely helped. And omg, Kozilek's Return.. would have helped A TON.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
I actually didn't see much enchantment graveyard hate ie. rest in peace. it was like, all deathrites and faerie macabres. K-grip felt like a dead card in hand.
Yeah, RIP isn't seeing much play these days because BR Reanimator is too fast. K-Grip is still a good option though for Pithing Needle, Blood Moon, and Counterbalance (maybe less necessary since you're running Boseiju). One option is to replace a K-Grip with Song of the Dryads, since it's slightly more flexible and opens up interesting shenanigans with Thespian's Stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by supergecko
@ supergecko: welcome! Hang in there, you'll be rewarded in the end.
Depending on your meta, and in a unknown field I wouldn't cut K-Grip. It's a catch-all against so many artifacts and enchantments that can take you down. Being (almost) uncounterable isn't something small.
haha, thanks. I definitely will. I played affinity in modern and it just got boring. Even though I'm frustrated now, I take that as potential for growth and years of enjoyment. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I probably won't cut the Grips..they just seemed bad at the time.
you played 2 matches vs what sound like weird brews. dont make any deck building decisions based on that. K Grips rock.Quote:
Originally Posted by supergecko
and multiple deathrites are difficult for any lands player to handle. I've once faced grixis delver that went t1 land drs, t2, land, drs, drs. I was doomed for what is normally an easy matchup.
@supergecko
I'm going to chime in from the RUG lands side because I think these two decks have a similar learning curve, even if they play out differently in a lot of situations. (As an aside, there are a a lot of hands/games of RUG lands that do not, in the end, involve many or even any of the blue cards at all... so there's that; but there are still going to be differences appearing even in those cases because the outs one is playing to are different.)
IMHO the things that make the deck hard to play are these.
- You have to identify what the opponent is trying to do quickly;
- You have to use tutors 2+ turns in advance to put a stop to this;
- Dredging Loam at the wrong times;
- Playing loosely when ahead.
I think 40% of the games I lost when I was fresh coming into lands I lost simply because I used one or more of the tutors incorrectly, and I'm sure I still make mistakes with that.
Another subset of losses came from overusing Dredge on Loam, like loaming "for value" or "just to get the engine started" when there aren't really any worthwhile targets to hit with it that will put the game state in my favor. This will happen especially to the player who is not absolutely clear on which specific card is "the out" to a particular situation. The odds of hitting a particular utility land, for example a Maze of Ith against a Gurmag Angler that's getting through, are not necessarily going to be highest dredging Loam for 3 cards per turn. You've also got Crop Rotation as an out. Are you more likely to hit the natural Maze on a 3 card Dredge, or hit one of the Mazes or a Crop Rotation off of a natural draw?
Experienced Lands players won't get these questions wrong, and even if they don't know the math they will have an intuitive understanding of the matter. I've learned that just peeling a card off the top for my draw step is not so bad.
The last problem is psychological, and other players might not suffer from it, but personally I tend to get a little sloppy and skip over small edges when I'm ahead: and Lands tends to get way ahead sometimes. It's both a good and bad deck for people with this tendency because it forces you to deal with the shortcoming and get beyond it. I've lost a few games when I thought I was ahead, didn't (for example) return Punishing Fire because I thought Marit Lage was going to kill them, and had the whole situation flip on me.
Totally sweet deck though.
@others
Riftstone Portal's value goes up not only in a Blood Moon meta, but also when sideboard cards like Prime Time and Nissa, Vital Force are being used. I wouldn't play any big drops like that without the Portal backing them.
Also, finding a good board against Miracles is one of my hobbies. I realize that RUG lands is going to have a slightly higher win % G1 (at least) because of Explosives recursion (which is, in large part, the point of the variation), but putting that aside, what would you say is the minimal configuration of TTs, Chalices, and other cards to make the MU a positive one?
What I'm trying to figure out is a precise value for Boseiju in terms of Miracles % points.
EDIT: Yeah K-grip.... hits so many things. I've never gone below 2, and 2 is probably too few. They hit Needles and tons of other problematic stuff. Frightfully often it's my only out.
Great thoughts. I'd also add that Riftstone Portal's value increases with Molten Vortex too. I also feel slightly less bad running four Dark Depths with Riftstone Portal out too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I feel like three is the minimum amount of K-Grips in a sideboard. I usually do a 3x Krosan Grip/1x Song of the Dryads split. The hard part about K-Grip is really determining how many to bring in. In most cases, except perhaps Storm, it's an auto-include but to what degree... For instance against Delver I might just bring in two for Pithing Needle/Winter Orb, but against others, such as Miracles or D&T, I'll bring in the full suite.
Yeah, when I started with the deck it feit the same :smile: Keep on playing. Watching MU will not help you perse, but it will help you identify certain decks, and certain lines of plays.Quote:
Originally Posted by supergecko
I would like to add: knowing when to shift gears.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Being to identify a deck, their threats, how to take those threats out, and when to change your strategy are what make this deck hard to play.
Aye :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Boseiju can be tutored for, your sb-cards... Not so much.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
Last time, I boarded in 3 K-Grip (for SDT, never for Counterbalance), 3 TT, and 4 Chalice. No 1 cmc-spells, meaning no cantrips or Swords, is huge.
How does Riftstone Portal helps me with Molten Vortex?Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
I agree, three is the bare minimum. Could change of course, but probably will always be a 4-of for me. Saved my ass so many times, it's insane. I always board in 3 or 4, never 1 or 2. Better save (quiet literally) than sorry. It's also something psychological: most opponents play Blue, meaning they can play their sb as 1 or 2-of's. I like to draw K-Grip naturally.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
Not so much that Riftstone helps Vortex, but the other way around. Always nice to have another way to get Riftstone to the graveyard. Also Vortex can be somewhat mana hungry at times so it's good to potentially have extra sources of mana thanks to Riftstone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I personally like to run 3 grips 1 ancient grudge. I feel like it makes the decision of "how many grips to bring in?" a little easier because I always feel a little bit better when gambling for my grudge and it feels a little safer to dredge when I would otherwise be afraid of turning over my K grips. I generally bring in 1 grudge and 1 K grip against, like you mentioned, delver, because they are generally packing only 1-2 artifact SB cards. And sometimes you even get 2 for 1 value with it against decks like DnT or MUD.Quote:
Originally Posted by filln
So I went to the Amsterdam Legacy Bimonthly today... Combo Galor... I didn't finish so well. My MU's were:
BR Reanimator: 2-1
SnS (with Omniscience, without C-Wish): 0-2
TES: 0-2
Blood Moon Stompy: 2-1
Alluren: 1-2
Hands weren't bad at all, but just came one or two turns short. Such is life, unfortunately.
awesome tips. thanks for those pointers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
@chatto are you running ports or Quarters? What was your side?
I run Ghost Quarter, which isn't really optimal in a combo-heavy meta, with also a ton of basic lands floating around. My sb is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ciubulu
Sideboard (15)
1 Karakas
1 Molten Vortex
1 Kozilek's Return
4 Krosan Grip
4 Tireless Tracker
4 Chalice of the Void
For the full list, look at my sig. I was expecting a lot of (BUG) Delver-decks, DnT, or just anything but fast combo.
In my area there's full of Omni show and s&s that's why I switched back to ports and spheres. I have 3 spheres and 1 trinisphere in my sb and the latter did wonders against them (the 4 grips helped too).