http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...&postcount=458
Card put together, sans middle piece (which has been worked out via wordsmiths and photoshop
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http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...&postcount=458
Card put together, sans middle piece (which has been worked out via wordsmiths and photoshop
Nice. Should be pretty playable.
Who has some good ideas not to overload the 4 CC in this deck?
I guess the question is if he is better than any of the other options, or a combination of them (Old Jace, Top, FoF, Brainstorm)
-If you want a continuous brainstorm effect, Top offers something similar.
-With 4 mana open and a specific card needed, FOF does a better job.
Jesus, Planeswalkers with 4 abilities? Holy fuck WOTC... :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Personally, I'm not so sure this Jace can be a staple in Landstill. There are already enough 4cc bombs as it is, and I would rather have Top, Bs, or FoF (:3::u: vs. :2::u::u:, the former will always be more consistently cast). All of those choices will not only smooth out your curve, but can be feasibly cast throughout the course of a game without making yourself incredibly vulnerable.
That said, the only thing that would lead me to believe that it has a spot in this archetype is what Ectoplasm said in it being able to bounce a Dreadnought/Stalker. I was also thinking along the lines of a Marit Lage Token or Iona.
Of course, you'll never be cutting Top or Brainstorm from this deck for Jace 2.0. Most of us spend some slots on Jace Beleren and/or Fact or Fiction. (funny, I think that there are at least 10 pages filled in this thread with a FoF vs Jace debate) Jace Mindsculpor is the better option, I think. I really like the synergy with Standstill, by the way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
-Jace 1.0 is at CMC 3 which is a big difference to CMC 4 (although not when the card seems much better). Besides most recent lists, on this site at least, don't play Jace 1.0 (most meta's seem to have alot of aggro and thus Jace just cantrips).Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
-Fiction finds you the answer straight away. Easier to cast. I'd like to think Jace 2.0 is better than FoF, but I think in alot of instances, he would be worse than FoF. I hope to be proven wrong.
This discussion has a very high "Is Tarmogoyf really better then Werebear? It does not tap for mana" potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
Against Agro, Jace 2.0 is better then FoF:
- No pressure: Jace > FoF
- One creature: Jace > FoF (bounce, brainstorm, answer.)
- Multiple: FoF > Jace under two strict conditions:
1. you'll survive the attack
2. the answer is in slot 4, 5 or 6, because Jace lets you brainstorm 1-3.
That means that Jace is only worse then FoF in 50% of the times you cast FoF in (really) desperate search for an answer. The rest, Jace just shines.
Although, that's my prediction, still have to test it, of course.
FOF is also instant speed. That's huge when you're keeping mana open to stay alive. If this boils down to anything, it boils down to whether you mind casting your 4cc draw bomb on your own turn or not.
In my UWr landstill, I personally run 3 jace1.0, too good to play only 2. The comparison between fof and jace2.0 sounds good, I was looking for an excuse to run at least a copy of it MD. Not sure about its potential, though, still have doubts (i'll test it a bit tomorrow evening). It's abilities are all scrumbled: the brainstorm doesn't add counters but it's clearly more powerful in terms of cost/effect than jace1.0. The unsummon ability lets jace protect itself in a certain sense, but then to addo loyalty we are forced to use a semi-useless ability, which I'll almost always use on myself I think (unless I want to use the jace2.0-tunnel vision combo! :cool: no, wait, we're not playing edh! :laugh: ). the ultimate takes infinite to load and will probably be never used, although it's absolutely gamebreaking vs control decks (new jace doesn't die to ee@3, so if they are running no jace, i'd be happy to resolve him).
As far as what concerns Mu's, which ones does it improve, on paper? I see aggrocontrol Mu is strenghten, but maybe it's winmore (plus we shouldn't need another card to go into daze). It reall shines in control mirrors. It does not improve fast aggro MU, because at t4 we can't protect him with a stp. Iona, marit lage? Come on: if they haven't yet won on t4, or disarded jace or dazed it, they are in trouble anyway. A well timed wish for chain of vapor or capsize (two techs I've stuck on my sb since october) does the job better in this case. Nor it helps vs other combo decks: the cc4 is too much, it really disturbs me. Would've costed as the old jace, the choice would've been much clear.
I'm considering cutting the Wishes for Vindicates again, to keep the "speed" this deck has.
That Jace is teh nutz!1Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
I would not underestimate the +2, not to say that it's usually better than spamming Brainstorms, but it can certainly have its uses. For instance, if they have CB out with no top, it can clear the way for your spells. If they tap a Top to draw, he can get rid of the Top for good. If you get them into a bad situation, it can make them far less likely to draw outs. Let's say you're against Rg Goblins and have Humility+Elspeth in play. Their only out is Krosan Grip and you can't counter that, so it's a better play to check the top of their deck every turn for Grip than spend it Brainstorming. It can also mess with opposing Ponders, pull nifty tricks with things like Submerge, and plenty of other little things. It's nothing to dismiss.Quote:
Originally Posted by gustha
The new Jace is definitely amazing, but I would not run it over FoF. If anything, over the 4th BS and/or an Elspeth.
- One creature: Jace > FoF (bounce, brainstorm, answer.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
Or against Zoo you just played a CMC4 Bounce spell if they are holding burn.
- Multiple: FoF > Jace under two strict conditions:
The instant gives you more options than I believe you are giving it credit.
The fact that he is UU and not U is a big deal too. Against decks which pack wasteland, you need to hit WWUU by turn 5-6, which isn't always a given. One to hit Jace, then to play WOG.
I do like Jace, but I expect him to be run as a singleton (as the third FoF rather than totally replacing it).
Like you said. Testing will prove all.
i think that the new jace has a lot more potential in ultimate walker than in this deck. The mana cost is a big restraint because usually I'm going for double white first and then for the second blue. That means this card isn't going to get played until then. I do think that as a singleton it would work great though. Like an additional solution to a single problematic creature. If you cant swords it, bounce it, for a few turn until you find a permanent solution.
What? I find it handy to actually cast my Counterspells in turn 2 and 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by whiteshepherdman
You don't need WWUU in turn 5 or 6 either: You need (W/U)(W/U)(2), what is a huge difference. I'll let all you Fact or Fiction lovers rest for now, but please remind that a lot of us play Jace for 1UU now. This Jace doesn't change anything to colorrequirements there.Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
(I hardly have any manaissues btw. My base: 4/1/1 Fetch, 4/1/1 Duals, 7 colorless land, 4 basics and an Eternal Dragon. And of course, 2 Top and 4 BS to find them all.)
But anyway, let's do some testing first.
I wasn't really suggesting that you did. What I was suggesting is exactly what you are suggesting. I just didn't word it as eloquently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
My point still stands though. (W/U)(W/U)(2) is difficult to achieve. It mean that you have to either have 2plains and 2islands or one of each and access to a dual or two duals which certainly isn't a given against aggro packing Wasteland and running 7 colourless sources.
And now, yes, I agree, to the table to PLAYTEST!!! :-)
Haha! I like that. :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Elf_Ascetic
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So yeah, comparing Jace 2.0 to FoF/Jace 1.0 appears to be the right approach to evaluate its power.
Personally, I've been more than happy with the old Jace, playing him as a 2/3-of in a SpeedWalkerStill shell. FoF never felt like a wincondition, while Jace seems to win the game quite frequently if he resolves.
So for me it's rather an old Jace VS. new Jace issue.
I haven't tested him yet, but I'm a 100% positive that this guy is insane.
Being able to cast a free BS every turn, without even having to spend loyalty counters? Heck, I'd most likely include him as a 2-of even if this was his only ability!
I'll even go as far as to predict that he'll be adapted by just as many other archetypes as Elspeth, only with a little less delay.
Who knows maybe Lorescale Coatl will be playable afterall. :tongue:
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@ Gustha:
Yeah, I also like the fact that Jace the Mindsculptor is almost EE prove. It's happened a couple of times that I had to blow up my own just to get rid of opposing B2Bs and stuff.
I don't think the UU is a big deal. Good Wasteland/LD players will keep you off WW and let you have blue, because (to date) some of the best spells in the deck require WW. If anything, CMC 4 is more prohibitive than UU, if only because most Landstill builds are already quite heavy at CMC 4 and decks like Merfolk can easily keep you off your spells that cost 4 through Wasteland, Cursecatcher and Daze.
ToucheQuote:
Originally Posted by Misplayer