Yeah, because that would be really freakin' fair to vial. Jesus, think it through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
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Yeah, because that would be really freakin' fair to vial. Jesus, think it through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
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Okay, I overlooked something. No need to get angry about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee
Wasn't meant as anger. Sorry, I can see how it came off as that, though.
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Hm, forgot about Aether Vial. I wonder if there is a way to word around it.
http://gatherer.wizards.com/pages/Ca...iverseid=40545Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Based on the current decks for February the point cutoff to be in the DTB thread is going to be 60.8 points. Elves will barely sneak in there to keep it from being a non-brainstorm shutout.
Change the activated ability to "Exalted, Flanking" and you have yourself a deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
Top 16 for SCG Atlanta:
Eight different decks in the Top 8, 12 different decks in the Top 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by SCG Atlanta
7/8 and 13/16 use Brainstorm
7/8 and 13/16 use Force of Will
5/16 use Stoneforge Mystic
4/16 use Delver
4/16 use True-Name Nemesis
5-ish combo decks: Reanimator x3, Painted Stone, Infect
Control: 1 UWR Miracles
Tempo: 1 RUG Delver
Tempo/Midrange decks (tough category, but ranges from tempo-heavy to midrange-heavy): 2 BUG Delver, 1 UWR Stoneblade, 1 Shardless BUG, 1 Punishing Jund, 2 Esper Stoneblade, 1 Esper Deathblade, 1 Goblins
The Top 16 is overwhelmingly blue-heavy, with Brainstorm and Force in 13/16 decks. On the other hand, Brainstorm is played alongside pure tempo decks (RUG), pure midrange decks (Shardless), tempo-y midrange-y decks, control decks, and combo decks.
That Top 16 is simultaneously extremely diverse and extremely blue heavy. To me this seems very typical of Legacy.
I mean it's mostly Stoneforge and/or Delver based aggro-control lists. Really not that diverse. Or we wouldn't have considered it so in old Legacy, where a top 8 that was 6/8 Thresh wasn't diverse just because RUG, BUG and WUG were all equally represented.
Do you mean it's typical of modern Legacy or Legacy traditionally? I'll agree it's typical of what gets passed off as diversity these days.
YepQuote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Phage being put into play via Aether Vial still loses you the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
That was the point I was making.
It's only 7/16 Delver or Stoneforge, for what that's worth.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
By "old Legacy", do you mean pre-TNN, or do you mean pre-Tarmogoyf, or somewhere in the middle? I want to make sure I answer the right question, and "Thresh" makes me think of Mystic Enforcer vs. Fledgling Dragon. I wasn't being super specific, but I guess the blue-ness of this Top 16 is more extreme than I can remember. However, the SCG Open in St. Louis was 10/16 blue decks.
I'd be really curious to see how the breakdown of Top 8s by deck type has changed over time. How much of a presence were Jund and Maverick back in their heydays? Did the format shift away from Jund with the printing of TNN, or was it before TNN was printed? My gut feeling is that Jund died down long before TNN was spoiled, but I don't have hard data for that.
From Jan-Oct 2013, Jund was #3 and Maverick was #7.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
I don't remember blue consistently putting up results in the 75+% range.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
Jund was pretty much destroyed by TNN. It's Maverick that died down long before TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by AngryTroll
I've gone through the data, and this is a common misconception that is just wrong. I went back and looked at the Top 8's from all 33+ player tourneys (6 round minimum) from Jan-Oct 2013 and Maverick was #7 during that pre-TNN era. #7 isn't exactly super duper top tier, but it's certainly a far cry from "dead" as so many think it was pre-TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
Just curious, have you compared its total results vs. 8+ round tournaments, I think its lack of success in that aspect is what drives the narrative that it was "dead." Also, posted my February numbers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
I did not. I thought that we had agreed that we'd be using all 33+ player tourneys and only Top 8's. That was the criteria that I used for all analysis for Jan-Oct 2013.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Not for discussing tiers, just as a personal curiosity. February was a really slow month for tourneys btw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Regardless of new cards and interactions, the Legacy community base has grown quite a bit since the format was first created. Due to the strong online presence of magic these days and an increase in tournament coverage, the archtypes are more distinct. Which is to say that generally certain builds are proven and shown to perform better, thus pushing out fringe builds and non-archtypes. If I say RUG Delver, you know about 56 out of 60 of the cards that I'm talking about. If I said WUG Threshold in 2005, you only know maybe 40 of the 60. Decks today are better and tighter than they were back in the day, and this means bad news for brews (especially weak ones).Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
To say that Legacy is not diverse today compared to ye ole days is not exactly fair since it is no longer as reasonable to show up with a brew and just take down a tournament in such a developed format. More players, more tournaments, more tournament coverage, and more online discussion all come together to create a less "wild west" and a more definite meta. Traditional Legacy verses Modern Legacy is nothing more than the format growing up and developing.
For reference: GP Philadelphia '05
On top of that, we now have weekly large tournaments (the SCG Open series) that the community is watching. That in itself is rapidly evolving the meta (or at least skewing it) towards what is most popular on the SCG circuit.
Of course decks looked different in the "Dark Ages" of Legacy where Goblins, Threshold and Landstill were the holy trinity of the format. Nine years of massive power creep happen to do that to the format.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
With the growth of the format, more people came and thus, more ideas, resulting in new decks. While it's great to see a new brew having its breakthrough, it's rarely going to happen now since there are already many established shells where good cards can go into. That's part of Legacy being an Eternal format.
Having an established metagame that changes in cycles doesn't mean that 70+% meta (and 80+% of the top tables) should be blue, though. That's the issue here.
Yeah, I think most people would agree that there are things WotC could do to balance the color proportions of the meta. I was merely addressing the illusion that the old Legacy was some magic place that we should or even could strive for. The current meta might be very Blue, but it is undoubtedly very diverse. On the one hand, it would be nice to have a stronger showing of non-Blue decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barook
On the other hand, there are major strategic differences between RUG Delver, American Delver, BUG Delver, UG Infect, UWr Miracles, Esper Stoneblade, and Shardless BUG. Even though 7 of the top 8 of the most recent SCG were Brainstorm/Force of Will decks, they all clearly have very distinct gameplans and roles. Even decks as similar as RUG Delver and American Delver have very real and significant strategic differences, let alone the differences between Infect and Miracles or Reanimator and Shardless BUG, etc.
Let's not fool ourselves by comparing today's evolved meta with the underdeveloped meta of old. Having 10-12 distinct archtypes represented regularly in the top 16s of large tournaments is a testament to the diversity of Legacy. Legacy is diverse. Now, if we want to talk about making other colors stronger and more equally represented, that's another matter.
BUG Delver, RUG Delver, and Patriot are not as fundamentally different as you're making them out to be.
They are certainly not as different as some decks since they are all Wasteland/Daze decks, but even though RUG and BUG are very similar, there's a fundamental difference between playing Stifle and playing Hymn to Tourach and many of the deck choices revolve around those differences. Likewise, there's a huge difference between playing Tarmogoyf and playing Stoneforge Mystic and many of the differences between RUG/BUG and American can be attributed to this. Regardless, even if you decide to group Wasteland/Daze decks together, they only represent 4 out of the last top 16.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
This distinction becomes murkier when, in an act of rebellion against US Manifest Destiny, Canadians like myself start calling RUG Delver "Patriot"Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Why before this past year you hardly ever see anyone using True-Name Nemesis, and even obvious tech like Delver, Jace and Griselbrand are recent developments.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Why, if you go back a few years you'll find people running Wrath of God over Terminus or Supreme Verdict.
I'm saying that yes, they do have many similarities, but there are also quite a few major differences between the decks. Enough major differences, in fact, that it is necessary to plan different sideboarding strategies for each of the different Delver decks. You can't bring in an anti-RUG SB strategy and expect to beat American with it. Equating them to the same deck is almost as bad as equating Goblins and Death and Taxes to the same deck. Both abuse Aether Vial. Both use Wasteland and Rishadon Port to constrict an opponents' mana. Both are packed full of efficient creatures that have more in their text box than power and toughness. Both are 4 Wastelands, 4 Rishadon Ports, 1-4 Cavern of Souls, 12 or so additional colored sources, 4 Aether Vials, 4-6 Removal spells, 4 Thalia throughout the 75, and 25-30 additional creatures. Clearly they are the same deck! Duh.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
I'm trying to think of an anti-RUG card that isn't good against Team America.
....Conversion?
Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce are much stronger against RUG. Counterbalance is lethal to RUG and sometimes annoying to BUG. Blood Moon is much stronger against BUG than RUG. Leyline of Sacntuary is useless against RUG and can be gamebreaking against BUG. Chalice of the Void is great against RUG and awful against BUG. Wilt-Leaf Liege is great against BUG since they use discard and it allows DNT to play around Golgari Charm. Wilt-Leaf Liege does not protect against Rough//Tumble wiping your field. Etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Because you don't want to counter Hymns and sometimes Lilianas? Not that either's an auto-board against either deck unless you're combo.Quote:
Flusterstorm and Spell Pierce are much stronger against RUG.
Why, because they can cast their Lightning Bolts? They also don't have a mana dork.Quote:
Blood Moon is much stronger against BUG than RUG.
Sure. Well not useless but close enough.Quote:
Leyline of Sacntuary is useless against RUG and can be gamebreaking against BUG.
Quote:
Chalice of the Void is great against RUG and awful against BUG.
I mean no. Bug has Abrupt Decay, but these are still both must-deal-with cards for them.Quote:
Counterbalance is lethal to RUG and sometimes annoying to BUG.
Well it surely protects itself. I know I've brought in Obstinate Baloth against both decks.Quote:
Wilt-Leaf Liege is great against BUG since they use discard and it allows DNT to play around Golgari Charm. Wilt-Leaf Liege does not protect against Rough//Tumble wiping your field. Etc.
But the main cards you would expect to see showing up in boards- REBs, Submerge, maybe EE or extra removal- are good against both decks.
If anything it's more the case that they're the inverse of Goblins and D&T; instead of sharing 12-16 cards, they have a 12-16 card difference. Less actually if you're not including the palette swap on the manabase.
I wouldn't classify playing against SFM, Deathrite, and Nimble Mongoose as very similar either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Soft counters are fine at forcing through spells/fetchlands against RUG. Counters are much worse against BUG since your hand is under constant threat.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
You have to fight through infinitely more Spell Pierces and Stifles against RUG, thus a 3-mana enchantment is harder to resolve.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
BUG's removal is 4 Abrupt Decay; their threats are 4 Deathrite, 4 Delver, 2-3 Tombstalker, and 4 Goyf; their disruption is FoW, Daze, and Hymn. Compare that to RUG whose removal is 4 Lightening Bolt and 1-2 Dismember; whose threats are 4 Delver, 4 Mongoose, and 4 Goyf; and has a disruption package of FoW, Daze, and Spell Pierce. Even assuming Chalice of the Void (presumably set to one) is not removed, BUG can still deploy threats, cast removal, and cast disruption. RUG is far more likely to be unable to interact the rest of the game. Now add in the fact that Abrupt Decay can easily remove Chalice when it is relevant.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
That's possibly fair, although Baloth has additional utility against RUG in that it gains you a solid chunk of life.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
REB, Submerge, and EE are all extremely versatile SB cards. The fact that they are all good against BUG and RUG doesn't mean too much. Submerge is good against any deck with Forests and Creatures. REB is good against any deck with a significant number of relevant Blue cards. EE is good against anything with cheap permanents.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
They share more like 20 cards, with the remaining 40 cards being divided between ~16 colored sources and a bunch of mono-colored creatures.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
The other big thing is that Patriot has almost as much in common with Stoneblade because of Swords to Plowshares, True-Name Nemesis, and the Stoneforge/Equipment package as it does with RUG and BUG Delver, and some BUG Delver lists can run a lot like Shardless in that they're strong into the midgame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Shared cards: Brainstorm, Ponder, Delver, Goyf, Force, Daze, Spell Pierce, Wasteland.
Palette-swap dual/fetchland arrangements. Including Trops and Misty Rainforests.
It is significantly more than 20 cards, especially after you ignore the distinction between a Volc and an Underground Sea.
Many BUG Delver lists don't run Spell Pierce, or keep it as a 1-2 of in the board for combo, opting for the discard package instead. RUG and most UWR lists don't run Planeswalkers, but Liliana is very common in BUG lists. This has huge effects on how each deck actually plays.
I was referring to 20 cards between Goblins and D&T, but I suppose it's more if you discount the cosmetic differences between Plains and Mountains.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
I suppose a manabase of basics, Ports and Wastelands is as interchangeable as a manabase of duals, fetches and Wastelands; but this leaves D&T with an overlap of Aether Vial, versus an overlap of almost the entire spell base and half the same creatures for Team America and Canadian Thresh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Don't feed the trolls.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Under his definition a diverse meta game would be RUG, TA, UWR Delver, Esper Delver and Grixis Delver.
I'm not trolling, but if it's convenient for you to do so, you may feel free to ignore my comments. I'm merely saying that there is nearly as much strategic overlap between Goblins and Death and Taxes as there is between RUG Delver and American Delver. And no, I do not think a meta entirely based on the Tempo spectrum would be healthy. While there are significant differences between the Tempo decks, it would make for a pretty uninspired meta if that's all there was. Likewise, despite acknowledging that D&T and Goblins are quite different decks, I'd think the meta were pretty stale if it consisted of nothing but Wasteland/Vial based midranged decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by testing32
Let's look at the last SCG top 16 for example:
6 Midranged:
3 Esper Stoneblade (SFM based)
1 Goblins
1 Shardless BUG (GBx Deathrite/Cascade shell)
1 Punishing Jund (GBx Deathrite/Cascade shell)
5 Combo:
3 Reanimator
1 Painted Stone
1 UG Infect
4 Tempo:
2 BUG Delver
1 RUG Delver
1 American Delver (SFM pushes slightly more midranged)
1 Control:
1 UWr Miracles
As opposed to your hypothetical all-tempo-all-the-time-meta, this meta looks mostly fine, although you could argue that there's a slight bias towards midrange (likely due to TNN). I see no evidence for Delvergeddon here.