Miracle Control

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Originally Posted by twndomn

Actually, many people, mostly Europeans, are dropping the 3rd Entreat in the SB.

http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/196456 This Luis guy in France, for example.

Also the other famous European Miracles player Angelo is doing the same: https://www.facebook.com/JKEntertain...40377802660761

Angelo's list is particularly interesting. It appears that he swapped the Counterspell in the SB slot with the MD 4th FoW.

I really like the 3 Snaps + 3 Clique setup, however you want to customize it in your 75.

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Hello that Luis guy is actually me :laugh:

I am not usually a Miracles player, i like the deck but i'm still learning it, usually i play Stoneblade decks.

I believe that Philipp list is perfect, i just adjusted the list to my local meta.

I decided to play with the REB/Pyroblast maindeck (The NJ list) because some of the best players on my store play blue decks and they are testing new lists with DTT, stuff like:

Grixis Control
Gold Digger
Patriot Stoneblade

Then we have a crowd that really really hates blue decks and that love their Calices and Chokes, so i decided to play two Wear/Tears on the side.

The Blood Moon is there because i always play against Turbo Depths, it happens to be good against Manlands and BUG decks so i decided to try it.

I really like Keranos, yesterday i actually won a game against Punishing Jund because of him, but i think that the Entreat would be good on that spot also.

In Paris there are a lot of Omnishow players, and they are all playing Boseiju, it can be a really difficult matchup, how are you guys fighting Boseiju? I think that Clique is not enough.

That said, if i would play the deck in a big event i would most probably play Philipp or Angelo list :)

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Originally Posted by Lordofthestringz

In Paris there are a lot of Omnishow players, and they are all playing Boseiju, it can be a really difficult matchup, how are you guys fighting Boseiju? I think that Clique is not enough.

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Omnitell can be rough sometimes, but it's a very winnable matchup. If you know that they are most likely playing Boseiju, then it's time to start countering their cantrips. This means sometimes even Force of Willing a Brainstorm if need be. Counter Top becomes more valuable when trying to attack their cantrips so try and get that down when you can. If you are clocking them they will likely only activate their Boseiju for a Dig Through Time or Show and Tell so it is important to get Snapcaster or Clique into play as soon as possible. Hope this is helpful.

If you're afraid of Boseju why not play a few Wastelands? They also come in handy against stuff like Caverns of Soul, Dark Depths, Grove of the Burnwillows, annoying manlands, Cloudposts, Glacial Chasm, Gaea's Cradle, and probably a lot more that i forgot to mention now.

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Originally Posted by mulder

If you're afraid of Boseju why not play a few Wastelands? They also come in handy against stuff like Caverns of Soul, Dark Depths, Grove of the Burnwillows, annoying manlands, Cloudposts, Glacial Chasm, Gaea's Cradle, and probably a lot more that i forgot to mention now.

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Suggesting wasteland in miracles?

We value our landdrops way more than 90% of the field does. What would you cut for wasteland? Basics? That's just plain dumb, and makes our deck much weaker vs. wasteland decks. Fetchlands? Making top and brainstorm (and the manasymbols-spells ratio significantly worse)? Duals? Making hitting UU for jace, WW for Entreat etc much, much harder.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

Suggesting wasteland in miracles?

We value our landdrops way more than 90% of the field does. What would you cut for wasteland? Basics? That's just plain dumb, and makes our deck much weaker vs. wasteland decks. Fetchlands? Making top and brainstorm (and the manasymbols-spells ratio significantly worse)? Duals? Making hitting UU for jace, WW for Entreat etc much, much harder.

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You can think of wasteland like a spell that sometimes also gets to make mana. It does not have to replace a land. It could even be a sideboard card. Blood moon, ruination or Back to basics are probably better options, but this narrow thinking of wastelands applications frustrates me (and is pervasive among legacy players). In vintage wasteland/stripe mine is absent in tempo decks, and basically just played in MUD and control decks. Control decks are not using wastes to lock someone out of a game, we are using it as just another level of interaction. Its like a counterspell or removal spell that just happens to interact in a way our other cards cant.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

You can think of wasteland like a spell that sometimes also gets to make mana. It does not have to replace a land. It could even be a sideboard card. Blood moon, ruination or Back to basics are probably better options, but this narrow thinking of wastelands applications frustrates me (and is pervasive among legacy players). In vintage wasteland/stripe mine is absent in tempo decks, and basically just played in MUD and control decks. Control decks are not using wastes to lock someone out of a game, we are using it as just another level of interaction. Its like a counterspell or removal spell that just happens to interact in a way our other cards cant.

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You can't compare Legacy to Vintage. In Vintage, you have decks that are based entirely around certain lands, and Wastelanding/Strip Mining a Bazaar, Library, Workshop, or Academy (just to name a few) can just win the game sometimes. The payoff when you hit these lands is huge in Vintage.

Lands aren't that powerful in Legacy, and you'd rather be just developing your own mana than putting your opponent off whatever effect their lands may have, because this deck has one of the most powerful endgames in the entire format.

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Originally Posted by KevinH

You can't compare Legacy to Vintage. In Vintage, you have decks that are based entirely around certain lands, and Wastelanding/Strip Mining a Bazaar, Library, Workshop, or Academy (just to name a few) can just win the game sometimes. The payoff when you hit these lands is huge in Vintage.

Lands aren't that powerful in Legacy, and you'd rather be just developing your own mana than putting your opponent off whatever effect their lands may have, because this deck has one of the most powerful endgames in the entire format.

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I agree that it is not normally worth it to run wastelands in Miracles but if people are looking for specific answers to boseiju wasteland is an option. Omnitell might be one of our easiest matchups post board if they don't have boseiju and a very hard matchup if they have boseiju so having an answer to a land makes a very big difference here.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

You can think of wasteland like a spell that sometimes also gets to make mana. It does not have to replace a land. It could even be a sideboard card. Blood moon, ruination or Back to basics are probably better options, but this narrow thinking of wastelands applications frustrates me (and is pervasive among legacy players). In vintage wasteland/stripe mine is absent in tempo decks, and basically just played in MUD and control decks. Control decks are not using wastes to lock someone out of a game, we are using it as just another level of interaction. Its like a counterspell or removal spell that just happens to interact in a way our other cards cant.

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I am fully aware that wasteland functions more like a spell, than an actual land. That doesn't mean you can play it EoT, flashback with snapcaster or mage sure you hit your (coloured) landdrops.

Also; Vintage and Legacy are not comparable at all, regarding wasteland. Vs shops, wasteland is a viable strategy. Vs dredge, it can often function as a hate card. Vs tolarian academy, it makes them not have 8 mana on turn 3. In legacy, it might target a boseiju, an ancient tomb... If you stumble upon those matchups. Otherwise it might be utterly garbage vs. delver decks, bad in the mirror, poor vs the midrange decks and a blank vs most other combo decks...

If you want to interact with lands, go for Blood Moon or Back to Basics.

Saw a Liston mtgtop8 run a mainboard dust bowl. That seems more viable than a wasteland.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

What's this non-sense about running Wasteland and/or Dustbowl.

Ponder Miracles has its pros and cons, just as Legend Miracles.

If you want to be favored against Omni-tell or any combo decks that run Boseiju, just play Legend Miracles.

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Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90

Omnitell can be rough sometimes, but it's a very winnable matchup. If you know that they are most likely playing Boseiju, then it's time to start countering their cantrips. This means sometimes even Force of Willing a Brainstorm if need be. Counter Top becomes more valuable when trying to attack their cantrips so try and get that down when you can. If you are clocking them they will likely only activate their Boseiju for a Dig Through Time or Show and Tell so it is important to get Snapcaster or Clique into play as soon as possible. Hope this is helpful.

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Thanks :) it was really helpful.

Hi guys,
today i've seen a Miracle's list with this manabase:

Lands [21]
1 Mystic Gate
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Th classic 3 Tundra becaome 2 Tundra + 1 Mystic Gate.
This simplifies the cast of Judgment and the Flasback costs....but...are this a right way?

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Originally Posted by Hrothgar

Hi guys,
today i've seen a Miracle's list with this manabase:

Lands [21]
1 Mystic Gate
2 Arid Mesa
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Polluted Delta

Th classic 3 Tundra becaome 2 Tundra + 1 Mystic Gate.
This simplifies the cast of Judgment and the Flasback costs....but...are this a right way?

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I feel like adding another land that can't cast ponder T1 is bad news.

I disagree. The change in percentages is negligible and I think it's a great card. I play it often and it's always been more of a positive than a negative. Wasteland is declining and it's only a singleton. Moreover, I'm less concerned about ponder and more concerned with counterbalance. You can turn 1 plains and still drop CB on turn 2. That's really good.

From my phone. I do my best, dammit!

Mystic Gate is decent tech against Choke, too. I've also seen Glacial Fortress used for this (in Stoneblade lists, not Miracles), but it is true that Plains into Mystic Gate + Counterbalance is pretty nice.

I run the 2/1 Tundra/Gate split, due to budget reasons and gotta say that I would love to have the third Tundra instead. Not only are hands with a Gate as the only land insta mulls, but I also somewhat regularly run into situations where not having a third fetchable white source off of the Delta/Tarn is awkward (though seldom backbreaking). Also had a memorable game vs D&T where I lost my second basic Plains to a Mangara early on and got 2 Tundras blown up, which left me unable to Entreat for a long time since Mystic Gate was not fetchable.

A big problem with mystic gate is also the fact that we want to play ponder and leave upp flusterstorm turn 2. With 4 Ponders I don't think you can afford to run a non blue land (turn1 atleast) and if you do I would go up to 22 lands and add either karakas or mountain before considering Mystic Gate. If choke is extremly popular I would rather play an additional wear/tear in my sideboard.

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Originally Posted by Mackan

A big problem with mystic gate is also the fact that we want to play ponder and leave upp flusterstorm turn 2. With 4 Ponders I don't think you can afford to run a non blue land (turn1 atleast) and if you do I would go up to 22 lands and add either karakas or mountain before considering Mystic Gate. If choke is extremly popular I would rather play an additional wear/tear in my sideboard.

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One of the advantages of playing Miracles is consistency. If you expect choke add 1Counterspell post-board, not only does it answer choke but also other strange threats that may appear.

If you really want to answer Boseiju, it's likely your best answer is actually Meddling Mage. Of course, Meddling Mage is not a mainboard card and it seems that one might even advocate for wasteland as a mainboard card, so there are different considerations to keep in mind. That said, I would prefer running mage in the sideboard to combat Boseiju before I'd consider wasteland in the main (or side) to combat Boseiju.

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

If you really want to answer Boseiju, it's likely your best answer is actually Meddling Mage. Of course, Meddling Mage is not a mainboard card and it seems that one might even advocate for wasteland as a mainboard card, so there are different considerations to keep in mind. That said, I would prefer running mage in the sideboard to combat Boseiju before I'd consider wasteland in the main (or side) to combat Boseiju.

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Boseiju is a land, Meddling Mage can only name nonland cards..
Try locking them with counterbalance and win before they find Boseiju. New lists of omnitell have a hard time beating you when counterbalance has CMC 3 on top of library.

You name show and tell not boseiju ;)

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Originally Posted by JBMage

Boseiju is a land, Meddling Mage can only name nonland cards..
Try locking them with counterbalance and win before they find Boseiju. New lists of omnitell have a hard time beating you when counterbalance has CMC 3 on top of library.

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I'm pretty sure the land is not what's beating us, but the spell cast with the land...

As a matter of fact, 2 meddling mages would mean they can't win (Show and Tell and Cunning Wish)

*I'm also a little sad Pithing Needle is useless vs. Boseiju. That would had been swell if they interacted.

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Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds

You name show and tell not boseiju ;)

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So you fight Boseiju by adding Meddling Mage to lock the card Show & Tell.. Seems like a paradise scenario!

If you want to fight Boseiju, counter their cantrips and lock them ASAP with CB.
We have the best cards against Show & Tell, red blasts and flash creatures for clock

We just talked about this like 2 pages ago, but yes meddling mage is probably the best option for Omnitell that is also good in other matchups. Also, keep in mind there are no cards in omnitell that win the game if resolved off a bosiju. Whats the worst case sencario? A show and tell putting in emrakul? First, they usually only have 0-1 Emrakuls in their decks so this is rare, but we also have around 8+ answers to that maindeck. Maybe show and tell into Omniscience is worse. But again, that doesn't win the game and now their bosieju is turned off. All your counters and REBs (on omni) all work now.

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Originally Posted by TheArchitect

We just talked about this like 2 pages ago, but yes meddling mage is probably the best option for Omnitell that is also good in other matchups. Also, keep in mind there are no cards in omnitell that win the game if resolved off a bosiju. Whats the worst case sencario? A show and tell putting in emrakul? First, they usually only have 0-1 Emrakuls in their decks so this is rare, but we also have around 8+ answers to that maindeck. Maybe show and tell into Omniscience is worse. But again, that doesn't win the game and now their bosieju is turned off. All your counters and REBs (on omni) all work now.

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The way i see this matchup e very similar to Sneak & Show.
I have in fact tried many things including Meddling Mage, Ethersworn Canonist, Humility and Pithing Needle.

Meddling Mage
You tap out to cast it, name Show & Tell and they kill you with the enchantment and vice-versa.
Omnitell will just adapt and do the same with Dream Halls.

Ethersworn Canonist
You manage the game while you have counterspells then canonist betrays you and we lose anyway.

Pithing Needle
You just never know the correct card to name Griselbrand/Sneak Atack and they can win anyway.

Humility
You cast it or drop it with Show & Tell and they resolve Jace or Echoing Truth.
Or they just resolve Sneak Attack and you finish the game looking at humility in your hand.

I'm not saying you will not have some free wins with these cards but they will not win you the majority of the games anyway.
In general you don't want many of these (1-2) in your 75 so you will not have them most of the time.
If you add a lot of these cards then you start losing to other important matchups and that is not where we want to be.

In the end, the way i have most success against Show & Tell strategies is to execute our main gameplan (CB * TOP) ASAP and drop a threat as soon as possible.
Snapcaster T2 is being just fine for me because the main problem of our deck against them is not having pressure.
Without a threat, countering a Show & Tell is just a 1 for 1 trade.

Omni-Tell have mostly cut all their bad combo parts (ie. Enter the Infinite, Dream halls) and are just trying to make a deck as consistent as possible.

The reason the deck is (suddenly) tier 1, is Dig through Time. NOTHING else changed.

Also, worst case scenario is Boseiju > SnT > Omniscience > Emrakul.

*A t2 snapcaster is fine, and if you have a 2nd in t3, that's perfect. You want to make their boseiju and ancient tombs bad plays.

Bear with me here... what about an Iona naming blue? I mean, if they have the Emrakul we're dead even if we have Nevermore/Meddling Mage naming him and they cheat in an Omniscience. At least with Iona we can prevent them from casting ANY of their spells aside from big dude, meaning they have to essentially topdeck Emrakul while at the same time facing a 2-3 turn clock. Or, if they SnT an Emrakul and we still throw in the Iona, it gives us first act and we can either try for a Terminus to reset them or dig to a Karakas.

It's not like any of the creatures we bring in against them are going to be hardcasted most of the time anyway.

For example, currently (for my meta) in my SB I have:

1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Moat
1x RIP
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Blood Moon
1x Pyroclasm
2x REB
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wear//Tear
1x Pithing Needle

Whenever I play against OmniTell, I bring in:

- 3 StP
- 3 Counterbalance
- 2 Terminus

+ 1 Iona
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Clique
+ 1 Venser
+ 2 REB

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

Bear with me here... what about an Iona naming blue? I mean, if they have the Emrakul we're dead even if we have Nevermore/Meddling Mage naming him and they cheat in an Omniscience. At least with Iona we can prevent them from casting ANY of their spells aside from big dude, meaning they have to essentially topdeck Emrakul while at the same time facing a 2-3 turn clock. Or, if they SnT an Emrakul and we still throw in the Iona, it gives us first act and we can either try for a Terminus to reset them or dig to a Karakas.

It's not like any of the creatures we bring in against them are going to be hardcasted most of the time anyway.

For example, currently (for my meta) in my SB I have:

1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Moat
1x RIP
2x Flusterstorm
2x Vendilion Clique
1x Venser, Shaper Savant
1x Blood Moon
1x Pyroclasm
2x REB
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Wear//Tear
1x Pithing Needle

Whenever I play against OmniTell, I bring in:

- 3 StP
- 3 Counterbalance
- 2 Terminus

+ 1 Iona
+ 2 Flusterstorm
+ 2 Clique
+ 1 Venser
+ 2 REB

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From what I've seen a few Omnitell builds are running 1-2 Slaughter Pact to deal with a reanimated Iona then just combo off. Yea sure you can just save FoW for that but it is an out for them.

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Originally Posted by Syntex

From what I've seen a few Omnitell builds are running 1-2 Slaughter Pact to deal with a reanimated Iona then just combo off. Yea sure you can just save FoW for that but it is an out for them.

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That still requires them to have it in hand, meaning it dilutes their combo plan by replacing a potential cantrip/Cunning Wish with a card that might not even hit anything.

And even if they are running Slaughter Pact, I doubt they'd bring it in against us seeing as most of the time we'd have Humility or other non-creature permanents.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

That still requires them to have it in hand, meaning it dilutes their combo plan by replacing a potential cantrip/Cunning Wish with a card that might not even hit anything.

And even if they are running Slaughter Pact, I doubt they'd bring it in against us seeing as most of the time we'd have Humility or other non-creature permanents.

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Yeah, I could see Iona winning games but is she worth a sideboard slot? That is the bigger question I think.

I know she could see some use against other decks but other than Show and Tell resolving with her in your hand or an exhume when she is in your graveyard (if your opponent is dumb) she will NEVER get into play otherwise.

I just think there is better tech unless your meta is being dominated by Omnitell.

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Originally Posted by Syntex

Yeah, I could see Iona winning games but is she worth a sideboard slot? That is the bigger question I think.

I know she could see some use against other decks but other than Show and Tell resolving with her in your hand or an exhume when she is in your graveyard (if your opponent is dumb) she will NEVER get into play otherwise.

I just think there is better tech unless your meta is being dominated by Omnitell.

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Are we discussing the possibility of adding one card in our sideboard, for one matchup, that in case our opponent casts a Show & Tell, if we have our one sideboard card in hand (just as our opponent has 1Emrakull), we maybe can win the game?

Is this a serious discussion? Are you guys really testing these ideas, like in 20-30 games how does it work? In the worst case scenario i would prefer to have my Emrakull, this way at least i could use it against Grindstone strategies and never lose..

It's not just for the OmniTell MU, it can also be brought in against SnS (present in my meta).

And there's one dude playing UR Landstill though getting to 9 mana and casting Iona is something I want to be doing, especially not when his deck is mono counterspell.

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Originally Posted by JBMage

Are we discussing the possibility of adding one card in our sideboard, for one matchup, that in case our opponent casts a Show & Tell, if we have our one sideboard card in hand (just as our opponent has 1Emrakull), we maybe can win the game?

Is this a serious discussion? Are you guys really testing these ideas, like in 20-30 games how does it work? In the worst case scenario i would prefer to have my Emrakull, this way at least i could use it against Grindstone strategies and never lose..

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I'd play the second venser before adding an iona I'm not planning on casting. Venser is a perfectly workable card in that matchup, and he soft-locks them if you have the karakas. I prefer that to running an emrakul I'm not going to cast, since it least it has some other applications (I get the painter-stone application, but there's other ways to fight that combo that are also flexible - like needle, etc). I definitely don't cut counterbalance in that match... at least never on the play (I'd cut it on the draw if I know they're on daze/pierce). They really need to resolve cantrips to reliably get boseiju, omni and show in their hand. Sometimes they just have it all, but that's not that high a percentage, and the longer it takes them to combo the more likely you are to have venser or karakas (against show:emrakul) to mess them up.

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Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual

It's not just for the OmniTell MU, it can also be brought in against SnS (present in my meta).

And there's one dude playing UR Landstill though getting to 9 mana and casting Iona is something I want to be doing, especially not when his deck is mono counterspell.

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How is Iona good vs. SnS?

They don't require spells to win, if they resolve SnT. Either they drop Grizzlebees, Emrakul or Sneak Attack - Iono doesn't stop anything from that point.

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Originally Posted by Quasim0ff

How is Iona good vs. SnS?

They don't require spells to win, if they resolve SnT. Either they drop Grizzlebees, Emrakul or Sneak Attack - Iono doesn't stop anything from that point.

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Most of the time they'll drop a GBrand, meaning you can still name blue and StP him and save your counters for Sneak Attack.

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Originally Posted by JBMage

Pithing Needle
You just never know the correct card to name Griselbrand/Sneak Atack and they can win anyway.

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Just as a note, if they show and tell, and you want to put in pithing needle, you get to see what they're putting in before you need to name something. It gets harder if you're just trying to blindly name something T1 or whatever.

if blind, you don't have karakas, and you have no additional information about the number of red sources available to them, i'd snap name grisel 10/10.

Unless you like forgot to sideboard out your swords and terminus, there's no point in needling grisel over sneak attack. If they get a 7/7 into play you will have a hard time dealing with it outside of jace. Naming sneak attack is always correct unless it's off of a show and tell and they play grisel. We have 5+ more hard counters for show than we do sneak and sneak usually just kills us, show we can sometimes answer the fatty.

Also, Iona? Are we really discussing this?

Vendilion Clique is like the best card possible against all the Show variants. You can take the second piece out of their hand, and its a fast clock.

Containment Priest has been great for me vs Sneak Attack too.

You don't need to play terrible things that are only good if your opponent cast's SnT (Iona). That's a waste of a slot. Seriously?

Edit: Needle goes on Sneak Attack blindevery time. We're way better at fighting Show and Tell.

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Originally Posted by alphastryk

Vendilion Clique is like the best card possible against all the Show variants. You can take the second piece out of their hand, and its a fast clock.

Containment Priest has been great for me vs Sneak Attack too.

You don't need to play terrible things that are only good if your opponent cast's SnT (Iona). That's a waste of a slot. Seriously?

Edit: Needle goes on Sneak Attack blindevery time. We're way better at fighting Show and Tell.

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Are you still on the Meddling Mages in the sideboard? I've been playing to reasonable success (consistent 3-1s in a 30-40 person field of real decks) Ein's list -1 Snapcaster, -1 CB (only have 3 Chinese ones :cry:), +2 Clique main, -1 Fluster, -1 Clique, +2 Meddling Mage in the board.

Meddling Mage has been great for me in so many of the random matchups. So good against combo to board out all the Miracles and turn into a fish deck. Also seems like it has been decent in the mirror.