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The second craterhoof is strictly for NO purposes in case you draw the first. Since NO is often sided out against miracles and delver decks, the second NO comes out. Against miracles, the KGrip is the better card. Surgical is a splash hate card against them that mostly comes in just because its better than whatever you're taking out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
Hey guys,
I've recently started picking up this deck and I'm having some trouble in the BUG Delver matchup. They usually gunk up the board with Goyfs and Deathrites while Delver and/or TNN presents a considerable clock. I can durdle all I want with Wirewood and Visionary but I always feel scared to attack in. The combo occasionally gets them but Force and Hymn can be brutal in the early turns. I did have one game where I activated my single Deathrite 5 times in 2 turns with untap effects to steal a game. That was fun.
What's your gameplan vs them? I haven't even gotten to sideboarding but what do you guys bring in?
Thanks in advance!
Establish deathrites early, you should easily have deathrite supremacy between the untappers and gsz to get more. you need to be able to recognize when you can abuse wirewoods/quirion rangers to get chip damage in while protecting your guys. grinding with symbiote and visionary is what allows you to commit cards to flood the board or combo with glimpse/NO. If you play nissa, they basically can't beat it. they can't really do anything to your board game 1 so you should probably be able to build up a huge board and then stick a hoof. game 2 and 3 become a decent bit harder between deluge and golgari charm, but you get decay and planeswalkers to kill their delvers and counter pressure. overall, it should be one of the easier matchups. boarding for me normally goes:Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
Bring in:
Ooze
Decay
Take out:
All Natural order
1 Craterhoof
1 Heritage Druid
Thanks, that is helpful advice. I guess it is all about the incremental advantage. I will keep practicing with that in mind then.Quote:
Originally Posted by resum
I want to try a Nissa in the main, thinking about cutting my miser's Llanowar Elves for it. Speaking of which, is there any sort of consensus on Llanowar? Acts as a 9th turn 1 accelerator but a pretty awful draw in the late game. Guess it's speed vs power trade off? Most list's I've seen have cut it.
Just curious, how viable is Elves without access to Bayous? The maindeck doesn't seem to suffer too much, but you lose like half of your sideboard. Is the deck still good playing mono-green?
After a quick brainstorm session I threw together the mess below. I'd imagine that without access to black mana, the deck would need to go more "all-in" on the combo kill, in order to try and sneak in under disruption or potentially race other combo decks, so I've completely removed some of the slower cards from the main and boosted the amount of 1 drops dorks.
29 Creatures
4 Heritage Druid
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
11 Spells
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
20 Lands
3 Forest
8 Green Fetchlands
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Gaea's Cradle
The main questions I have about the list are:
1. Is Deathrite Shaman still optimal without access to black mana, or should he be replaced by a generic mana dork like Llanowar Elves? He can't eat spells, but he can still eat other things and is slightly bigger, but not being able to produce mana unless there's a fetch in the graveyard seems like it could actually be a liability sometimes.
2. What should the sideboard look like? Green sideboard options I've thought about include stuff like Nissa, Rec Sage/Krosan Grip, Scavenging Ooze, and the fourth Natural Order. Other options that I can think of off the top of my head that are castable are Surgical Extraction/Faerie Macabre, Dismember, and Mindbreak Trap. Is there some combination of these that can do a functional (if bad) impression of what discard/Abrupt Decay gives us? How do we sideboard properly against our bad matchups?
Am I barking up the wrong tree trying to play this deck without being forced to buy into Bayous, or is what I have workable?
So you dont want to afford 2 bayous? or what is the reason to not go black?
deathrite and untapping him and draining is just so powerful that you should not cut black. also decays. dont go without them.
2 Bayous is like 300+ dollars. If I like how the deck plays I'll probably buy into them over the course of a few months, but for now I just want a not terrible version of the deck that I can jam to get a feel of how the deck runs and how various matchups play.
You can buy 2 shocklands for 20E as a temporary replacement, yes it hurts your life total, yes its far from ideal for the : tap DRS, quirion activation bounce, untap DRS replay land and use again. Aside of that, I rather have that downside, then not having acces to black at all.
Abrupt decay is the nuts, you are gonna cut in your own fingers if you are not running them.
Keep in mind your birchlores also help with generating black mana when needed. DRS likewise can make black, just requires you to have 2 or an untap effect if you want to use them to remove spells from the GY.
Keep checking ebay and there's also a couple facebook groups that sell magic cards for a bit cheaper than online vendors. I think it's called MTG Sick Deals (sorry mods if posting this kinda stuff is not allowed, feel free to delete). I picked up 2 MP for around 100 each.Quote:
Originally Posted by silly
So people have convinced me that the black splash is basically necessary. Probably going to play with two copies of Overgrown Tomb as a temporary stand in while I get the hang of the deck. A few quick questions about the sideboard though:
1. What discard to run? I think most decks run 5-6 copies of discard in the board. Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapy seem to be standard, but some decks run more copies of Therapy and some decks run more Thoughtseize. Which is better? Also, is there any merit to potentially playing Duress or Inquisition in these slots, or are they basically always worse?
2. Why does everybody run Surgical Extraction for graveyard hate? Is substituting Relic of Progenitus/Faerie Macabre/Tormod's Crypt/Leyline of the Void/whatever I have lying around an okay choice, or is Surgical Extraction much better in this deck than all the other options?
Also, I see that most older lists opt not to run Cavern of Souls, but there has been a shift in deckbuilding, with most new decks cutting 2 fetches for 2 copies of Cavern. Why is that the case now? Is 2 Caverns necessary, or is 1 Cavern/0 Caverns a good choice as well?
Duress or inquisition are way worse against show and tell decks, so you really prefer seize and cabal.
Cabal is a bit better against combo, while thoughtseize is an ok card vs miracle, which is why it is more common now.
We draw quite a bit, so I would say that leyline is not an option. Relic is slow and hurts our plan (DRS drain).
What make surgical the best option though is that it has a bit of splash damage vs miracle: Extract terminus in response to the trigger of the second one, on a SCM target, to shuffle the library in response to a tap to draw activation,...
It is not great, but ok.
I would say cavern is absolutely not necessary, especially since eldrazi has almost vanished, but some may think otherwise. At the very least, it is far from being as necessary as bayou that you were pondering on buying.
Sorry...Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
My Field is full of Miracles. This is the deck i lose more often.
full of miracles? go 2 krosan grips & 4 decays, some surgical... and ur fine.
@Thoughtseize / therapy
i do more Thoughtseize then therapy atm because therapy is harder to cast in my eyes, you need to have a much deeper knowledge of legacy. later i want to switch if im able to learn more and more but for now Thoughtseize > therapy for me.
If cavern isn't necessary I'm probably going to only stick with 1 Cavern instead of the standard 2. I wanted to run a copy of Pendelhaven in the deck and it feels like x2 Cavern of Souls eats into my fetchland count a little too heavily.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
How do I gain access to these facebook groups? They're all restricted and it seems like you need a secret handshake to get in.Quote:
Originally Posted by supachai
I think most lists run a 3/3 split of Therapy and Thoughtseize. Therapy is super strong in this deck cause of how easy it is to flash back and the potential to nab multiple copies. Having some Thoughtseize also makes your Therapies less blind.
PM'd youQuote:
Originally Posted by silly
Thanks for all your help guys. I went and acquired some of the missing cards I was lacking and will be jamming the list below to get used to the deck.
16 Lands
2 Forest
2 Overgrown Tomb
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Gaea's Cradle
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Pendelhaven
30 Creatures
2 Dryad Arbor
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
14 Other
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
2 Crop Rotation
1 Nissa, Vital Force
15 Sideboard
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nissa, Vital Force
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Scavenging Ooze
Definite next purchases in the coming months will be to upgrade the Overgrown Tombs into Bayous and adding two more Cradles over the Crop Rotations. Let me know if this list looks good or if there's something important that I've accidentally missed out on.
If you play 2x crop rotation MD you may want to make use of them: karakas, bokuja bog, wasteland.Quote:
Originally Posted by silly
Great cards against lands, sneak & show and reanimator, not exactly your best friends.
Just finished playing in the April Legacy Challenge. Check out the VODs on my website!
The list looks pretty solid, I would exchange a nettle sentinel for another fetch or forest 3. You really want to keep your land total near 20 if possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by silly
When I started Elves I ran back and forth between 18-20 lands allot, in the end I settled down to 20 after having to many games with 5x elf, arbor, cradle like hands. In general, there are only 14 lands that you want to see T1.
Cut the Nissa if you feel that 19 is not enough after some testgames. She is a recent addition so I consider her more as a Fancy card rather then a Core card. Our plan A [NO] B [Glimpse] and C [beatdown!] should serve you well enough G1.
SB wise, I really would like to see a pithing needle in it somewhere, its a good ''catch all card'' [Sensei's divining top, inkmoth nexus, grindstone, sneak attack, vial, Jitte etc etc] that hits allot of core cards from certain decks that might help you buy the time you need.
I am personally not a fan of mindbreak trap. Its the first card that I removed from my SB when learning to play Elves. I personally would swap them out for pithing needles or surgical extraction.
Awesome. I'll watch them tonight.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Could you explain a bit about why you made the tweaks to the deck for this event? Specifically, why the Progenitus on the sideboard (you haven't used one in a while I believe) and moving the Nissa to the sideboard and the Ooze main.
BTW, you inspired me to finally take the plunge and play elves. I took down a 31-person tournament yesterday playing elves for the first time!
Thanks!
watch the first video ;).Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
http://itsjulian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/50s.png
Went 13-2 in Leagues today with this list I drew up to be reasonable vs all that midrange stuff going on in the format right now. I'm a big fan of Jitte in Elves, but in this one, it almost felt lackluster. Kinda like a card that was too much midrange value in a deck already focussed on eactly that. Easiest "fix" would be to swap one Abrupt Decay into the main, opening up a SB slot, which is always super cool.
Matchups:
Big Eldrazi: 2-1 WIN
RB Reanimator: 2-1 WIN
Shardless BUG: 2-1 WIN
Aluren: 1-2 LOSS
Sneak Show: 2-1 WIN
Sneak Show: 2-1 WIN
Miracles: 2-1 WIN
Canadian Threshold: 2-0 WIN
Manaless Dredge: 2-0 WIN
UR Delver: 2-1 WIN
Czech Pile: 2-0 WIN
Infect: 0-2 LOSS
Big Red: 2-0 WIN
Collected Company Hatebears Naya Zoo: 2-1 WIN
Sneak Show: 2-0 WIN
Game 2 versus Big Red was insane. Opponent was on the play, had this:
T1: Chalice @1
T2: Sneak Attack => Griselbrand
T3: Chalice@2 + Chandra, Torch of Defiance (I destroy SA on my turn 3)
T4: Through the Breach Griselbrand
...and then I still won without ever removing the Chalices. Crazy game! Here's [="http://itsjulian.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/Opp.png"]the final turn[/URL].
/Edit:
I'm explaining my reasoning in the round 1 video. It's because of the meta I predicted based on participants. Didn't really work out well for me ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
Also, good job taking down that tournament!
@ Julian, Question, have you ever put 2+ [multiple] abrupt decays in the mainboard while keeping the rest of the list ''classic'' and tested it?
-Saves me time testing it myself if you can verify your findings.-
The reason why I ask this is because Abrupt decay tends to be the card I board in most. It is rarely a dead card in a matchup [aside combo decks] that said, moving some AD to the main would free up some slots in our SB. I have been tinkering with this idea for ages but never pulled the trigger.
I just got around to it. You said that you chose the Progenitus package because you expected lots of D&T, 4c Loam, and Eldrazi. What's the common thread to those decks that makes Progenitus better? Is it just lack of countermagic? I get that helps with Natural Order, but Progenitus? Is that against decks with lots of removal so you can cast NO with just one creature and have it be worth it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Very interesting the Chaos Elves version you're playing now. I take it that Chaos Elves has a better game against Miracles and other blue decks?
Crazy list you got there but as im swiss i can't go without order.
Sorry!
But all jokes aside, how do you guys sideboard?
I did wrote down some sideboard plans from julian for example and he goes all NO out against BUGish delver lists, but what if its 4c Delver? Sometimes i just feel like "wow, now i want me to draw some NO.." but then i boarded them out.
Im fairly new to Elves, love playing it, love studing it, did made 20.th place in paris for the european championship but only with the help of all the other streamers out there.. didnt really think about why they do what they do and just copied it :D
How many times did you have colored mana issues? I feel like I'd want another birchlore with the leovold main.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
Guys, you should not onldy blindly copy what you see me doing, but also listen to what I say. When I tried going 4 NO vs BUG I mentioned several times that this is not what I can recommend doing, but instead was something I wanted to try out. I didn't like it very much.
@Emurian: NO is good vs decks with Chalice and no counterspells, since it's an easy way to pretty much win the game with very little ressources.
@Doneval: Chaos Elves is better vs pretty much all blue decks except Merfolk. I have a list about the advantages/disadvantages in my Chaos Elves primer on my website.
@Flutschi: If you only ever look at the times you wanted NO but didn't have it and thus conclude that you don't want to side it out, that's confirmation bias. If you want to keep it in, do so. It's not like I'm the final authority on any of this.
@resum: barely ever. I was considering the 2nd Birchlore, but Llanowar Elves is just so crazy good in this deck, I always want it on turn1 :-O
I play one leovold main deck lately: has been helping me out even though he usually gets removed in a turn of two (but replaces himself with the card draw).
I don't play tropical main deck and only have one birch lore. Still no mana problems with DRS, 2x Cavern and I usually GSZ him.
No no im not saying this is final, im just saying that i learn with copying others and still wondering why you do what you do ^^
So, how do you know how to board? experiance? did you make some kind of list? or just playing like there is no tomorrow?
I've definitely found myself wanting more turn 1 accel sometimes. But perhaps over the Jitte to enable a few more explosive draws preboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
On another note, I've noticed when watching miracles streamers, there are a good number of them who have started siding out CB against us. Has it gotten to the point where decay isn't worth bringing in unless they also have mentor to smash? Or do we need to be wary of CB no matter what?
the logic behind progenitus is twofold:Quote:
Originally Posted by Doneval
1. some decks literally can't beat a turn 3 progenitus but could beat a turn 3 hoof for not lethal (DnT, bg/x decks) This just allows you to fight on an axis they may not be prepared for
2. great against removal heavy decks (p.fire decks, the new grixis control, etc) since you only need one creature in play to make your NO still win the game
I am still on the progenitus plan; but it seems I am kinda alone on this...maybe it's time for me to get with the prgram (but it wins me a LOT of games..)
if they sb out CB, I like our chances even with some "dead" cards in our deck (never dead--they still hit cliques, angels, snaps, tops with draw on the stack, and blood moon)Quote:
Originally Posted by resum
I know this was directed at Julian, but my best advice is to a. know your enemy and what matters in the matchup and b. be fluid when sideboarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Flutschi
I often bring in 7-8 cards that "could be good" then take out the same number of cards which I feel are the least impactful, some of which may be the exact same sb cards I just put in.
For example, vs the new 4-color control decks-- I'd side in 4 decay, 1 cabal therapy, 1 progenitus, 1 thoughtseize, and sylvan library... then when I go through my deck I may determine that the 4th decay is worse than cutting another dude...and not find room for the thoughtseize... so my final board would be -2 heritage, -1 rec sage, -1 q.ranger, -1 nettle, -1 hoof and +3 decay, +1 cabal, +1 prog, +1 library. The idea is to know what effects are the best and go toward those...it takes some experience and knowledge of other peoples sb plans, but this skill is invaluable.
but if you're looking for a TL:DR sb guide, they are out there--just google it or ask someone on reddit (I think this is bad, but I understand if you are still new to the deck)
Thanks for the input. it was not directed to julian btw. i just want to get some input..Quote:
Originally Posted by Shagstaman
To get some hint of SB,Quote:
Originally Posted by Flutschi
you can refer page 329 of this thread.
Hope you will like it :)
Would you guys recommend going 4 NO in a field full of chalice decks? My meta is full of eldrazi, big eldrazi, lands, and aggro loam. I always stayed at 3 cause I don't really like the NO package based from my experience. I used to run progenitus but it sucks to draw him always. :cry:
https://scontent.fcgh2-1.fna.fbcdn.n...24&oe=58EF1088
BUG Elves with Leovold, Coiling Oracle and New Nissa?
I think New Nissa is gas.
Cardselection, cardadvantage and killcondition? Sign me upQuote:
Originally Posted by Diogo37
BUG elves sound good. Coiling oracle + elvish visionary = tons of cards
Yea that nissa might be legit. Obv everyone likes the 5 mana nissa vs miracles and such, but this pwalker seems to synergize more with our deck. Will be fun to test (althought she may end up like most new cards...).