[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I've top 8'd with this deck every time I've played it in a major event (3 times in events with 32+ people). I play at Mythic Games in upstate New York, which is home to some of the toughest legacy specialist competition you'll find anywhere -- it's the descendant of Jupiter Games, before that scene fell apart. Both times I've played it at Mythic (I skipped this month for personal reasons, and I'm likely blocked out of October based on scheduling), I top 8'd....the first time, I top 4'd. My record with the deck is something like 26-4-3, and a large portion of those are against damn fine players. I created and popularized Scapewish, and I'm saying that this deck is -- flat out -- better than Scape was at it's strongest point. If that doesn't mean anything to you, then that's fine.

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You could've posted this info in your original post, it gives some credibility to your claims of how strong the deck is. I'm genuinely excited about the deck, it looks awesome, so don't get my questions/criticism as trying to talk the deck down. Still, my questions/remarks stand. The way you describe your bad matchups, it sounds like a typical Nic Fit deck. It's a shame that doesn't mean it's great, because I really love Nic Fit.

With respect to consistency, I can only take your word for now that it looks better than it is, because it looks clunky. Your 'example hands' to prove consistency are very biased. Each one contains either a Zenith or Veteran. I've played plenty of Nic Fit to know that this is just not always the case and it can sometimes have terrible mulligans. We'll see how the deck will perform in a while and I might get some time to test it myself, hopefully. The main point of discussions like this is to raise awareness. People testing the deck may now be aware of questions others had about the list and could make notes/whatever during their play sessions to provide us feedback. Your track records is very impressive, but one person is not a great sample. You could just be lucky or a very skilled player, no matter the deck ;).

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Originally Posted by UseLess

You could've posted this info in your original post, it gives some credibility to your claims of how strong the deck is. I'm genuinely excited about the deck, it looks awesome, so don't get my questions/criticism as trying to talk the deck down. Still, my questions/remarks stand. The way you describe your bad matchups, it sounds like a typical Nic Fit deck. It's a shame that doesn't mean it's great, because I really love Nic Fit.

With respect to consistency, I can only take your word for now that it looks better than it is, because it looks clunky. Your 'example hands' to prove consistency are very biased. Each one contains either a Zenith or Veteran. I've played plenty of Nic Fit to know that this is just not always the case and it can sometimes have terrible mulligans. We'll see how the deck will perform in a while and I might get some time to test it myself, hopefully. The main point of discussions like this is to raise awareness. People testing the deck may now be aware of questions others had about the list and could make notes/whatever during their play sessions to provide us feedback. Your track records is very impressive, but one person is not a great sample. You could just be lucky or a very skilled player, no matter the deck ;).

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Hmm.

Allow me to rephrase, in hopes of getting across why I think that this build is 'a' superior build (as I maintain that there is not and cannot be one 'true' build of nic fit that is better than all the others for any given pilot X).

Most Nic Fits can lose to Delver.
Most Nic Fits can lose to Shardless.
Most Nic Fits do lose to Lands.
Most Nic Fits do lose to Miracles.

Sneak rarely loses to Delver.
Sneak rarely loses to Shardless.
Sneak can lose to Lands.
Sneak can lose to Miracles.

Most of this comes down to the inevitability of its gameplan, the power/speed with which it can turn the corner, and the resiliency to avoid losing along the way.

My main "love" Nic Fit is GBW Control, with 1 Rhino and heavy on planeswalkers, which I Day 2'd Columbus with at 8-1, before running into triple combo decks drawing well on day 2. Delver is one of my best matchups, but I've lost to Delver with it. I've lost to Shardless more times than I care to admit, which is also another purportedly great matchup. Hell, if the guy had drawn better, I could've lost to UB Demigod of Revenge.dec -- some casual player who attended the legacy GP because he lived locally.

This is because being a control deck without a way to quickly end games and without a proactive gameplan that you're working toward is an intrinsically flawed proposition. While I believe the preceding is a true statement across magic in general, it is ESPECIALLY heinous when you're playing Nic Fit, because in order for your deck to function optimally, you need to be giving your opponent mana. This means that especially control heavy builds of Nic Fit are much more vulnerable to spontaneously dying because their gameplan is best described as "absorb all of your hits without dying, then when you're out of gas, overpower you with whatever random 4-6 drop bomb I happen to have around."

The strong, linear gameplan of Sneak Attack is what I think makes this build so good. You always have a plan. You're not just waiting around until the opponent is out of cards and then trying to outmuscle them. Sure, you're controlling the game still. You're still a Pernicious Deed deck with spot removal and etc. But you have a realistic goal to be working towards.

Does that make sense? I acknowledge your concerns, and I do think that there are certainly things to continue working on. I'm not posting about the deck with the assumption that it's perfect as is, go forth and win every event you enter. It needs tuning, and I'm bad at that. I just want to establish the core theorycrafting /behind/ the deck....the what, if you will, I am trying to accomplish. If I'm still failing to get that message across, please, let me know and I'll try again.

Hey Kevin: your Sneak Fit list has me not only wanting to build Nic Fit for the fifth time, but also has me wanting to deviate from Junk for Jund.

One suggestion though: have you considered Mikaeus, the Unhallowed amd Triskelion combo over Inferno Titan and Emrakul? While not as strong from a control end, they provide a nice combo together (that pretty much costs RR off of Sneak), not to mention Mikaeus makes Sneak Attack a one-sided one-mana Show and Tell for one turn.

Eh ... probably just me being cute (*coughmoderncough*).

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Hey Kevin: your Sneak Fit list has me not only wanting to build Nic Fit for the fifth time, but also has me wanting to deviate from Junk for Jund.

One suggestion though: have you considered Mikaeus, the Unhallowed amd Triskelion combo over Inferno Titan and Emrakul? While not as strong from a control end, they provide a nice combo together (that pretty much costs RR off of Sneak), not to mention Mikaeus makes Sneak Attack a one-sided one-mana Show and Tell for one turn.

Eh ... probably just me being cute (*coughmoderncough*).

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This was something that was actually on my radar at one point in time, believe it or not. Mikaeus has a lot of amusing synergies, and it's not like Trike is baaaaaaaad.....

Except it is. The difference between Trike and Inferno Titan is goddamn massive. Like, you never appreciate Inferno Titan. You're like, meh, Inferno Titan. And then you actually play with it, or, god forbid, Sneak it for the first time. It just dominates the game. Never underestimate the sheer nonsensery that Inferno Titan is capable of. I originally had Broodmate Dragon in Inferno's slot when brewing, and the first time I tried testing with Inferno just to see how it played, I was hooked.

You know how I feel about Elves. You can't possibly begin to imagine the erection I was sporting the first time I got to Inferno Titan an Elves player. It validated my existence.

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There's obviously a lot of joviality and goofing off in the above post, but tl;dr, I considered it and dismissed it because it's just not as good as the other options and it's a bit too cute to try to pull together all the pieces, when you can just Emrakul them.

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Originally Posted by UseLess

You could've posted this info in your original post, it gives some credibility to your claims of how strong the deck is. I'm genuinely excited about the deck, it looks awesome, so don't get my questions/criticism as trying to talk the deck down. Still, my questions/remarks stand. The way you describe your bad matchups, it sounds like a typical Nic Fit deck. It's a shame that doesn't mean it's great, because I really love Nic Fit.

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To be fair, he's written about the decks results for weeks now, this is just the first time we've seen the list.

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With respect to consistency, I can only take your word for now that it looks better than it is, because it looks clunky. Your 'example hands' to prove consistency are very biased. Each one contains either a Zenith or Veteran. I've played plenty of Nic Fit to know that this is just not always the case and it can sometimes have terrible mulligans. We'll see how the deck will perform in a while and I might get some time to test it myself, hopefully. The main point of discussions like this is to raise awareness. People testing the deck may now be aware of questions others had about the list and could make notes/whatever during their play sessions to provide us feedback. Your track records is very impressive, but one person is not a great sample. You could just be lucky or a very skilled player, no matter the deck ;).

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It looks consistent to me. Lots of mana, lots of tutors, lots of recursion. There's a bunch of 1 of's, but 1 of's don't necessarily mean inconsistency because there's a lot of overlap in the function of those 1 of's.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Alright folks, I've decided that the time is now. That'll give us a full month before Eternal Weekend, and a little bit less than that for Eternal Extravaganza for whoever is going to that (I'm personally not currently planning on it, but may be persuaded as the time draws near).

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Looking at the list, one concern I have is the lack of interaction. 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, and 3 Deeds just feels removal light to me.

Edit: One other question. Do you have any alternative manabase suggestions? I might be interested in building this but I'm missing the 3rd Bayou and 2nd Taiga. I suspect the RG Tango could replace Taiga #2 (though that doesn't cast a T1 Vet), but is that 3rd Bayou really important?

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Originally Posted by Brael

Looking at the list, one concern I have is the lack of interaction. 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, and 3 Deeds just feels removal light to me.

Edit: One other question. Do you have any alternative manabase suggestions? I might be interested in building this but I'm missing the 3rd Bayou and 2nd Taiga. I suspect the RG Tango could replace Taiga #2 (though that doesn't cast a T1 Vet), but is that 3rd Bayou really important?

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I originally had the Shriekmaws maindeck. They were good, but sometimes awkward, so they got booted to the sideboard, which has been a great place for them. I also tried a build with more Decays, but I ran into problems actually closing the game -- I kept killing all the things and then stalling out, which is a fairly typical problem for Nic Fit as a whole. Putting Inferno in helped a lot, since he definitely fits the bill as "removal," and while I could see running maybe one or two more removal spells (especially if they were removal spells with bodies....black gearhulk comes to mind, but 6 is too much mana), I honestly haven't run into a problem with it. The deck is still capable of defending itself well enough.

As far as the mana base goes, I'd opt for a Shock before a Tango, just because the coming into play tapped can be /that/ awful when it actually affects you. As far as the Bayou goes, you basically just want a G source that can also cast Griselbrand. You /could/ try to bias slightly more towards Sneak Attack and opt for a 2nd Badlands, or you could just say fuck it and run an Overgrown Tomb. A Grove of the Burnwillows wouldn't be the worst thing in the world over Taiga #2, also, if you have access to those. It's nice to have more fetchable lands, but realistically the 2nd Taiga slot being fetchable is less likely to matter, /especially/ if you opt for the 2nd Badlands.

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Originally Posted by Brael

To be fair, he's written about the decks results for weeks now, this is just the first time we've seen the list.

Looking at the list, one concern I have is the lack of interaction. 2 Decay, 1 Pulse, and 3 Deeds just feels removal light to me.

Edit: One other question. Do you have any alternative manabase suggestions? I might be interested in building this but I'm missing the 3rd Bayou and 2nd Taiga. I suspect the RG Tango could replace Taiga #2 (though that doesn't cast a T1 Vet), but is that 3rd Bayou really important?

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I have done a LITTLE testing and tweaking with his list i found that went T8 a nr of weeks ago.
Because i had the same issue with Bayou #3 and Taiga #2 i included 3x PFire and 3x Grove of the Burnwillows. It adds more interaction and it happened to increase game against DRS and whatnot. So far i liked it, but as i said, little testing.

Kevin, in your earlier lists you ran Recurring Nightmare. That card is totally nuts, what was your reasoning to cut it?

So far i totally like the SneakyFit list. Still waiting for some JPN Sneak Attacks from Hareruya to complete it in paper.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I have done a LITTLE testing and tweaking with his list i found that went T8 a nr of weeks ago.
Because i had the same issue with Bayou #3 and Taiga #2 i included 3x PFire and 3x Grove of the Burnwillows. It adds more interaction and it happened to increase game against DRS and whatnot. So far i liked it, but as i said, little testing.

Kevin, in your earlier lists you ran Recurring Nightmare. That card is totally nuts, what was your reasoning to cut it?

So far i totally like the SneakyFit list. Still waiting for some JPN Sneak Attacks from Hareruya to complete it in paper.

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I found it just wasn't needed, honestly. I love Nightmare, don't get me wrong -- but Meren and Volrath's completely covered my need for that slot...was better to open it up to make room for other things.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

As far as the mana base goes, I'd opt for a Shock before a Tango, just because the coming into play tapped can be /that/ awful when it actually affects you. As far as the Bayou goes, you basically just want a G source that can also cast Griselbrand. You /could/ try to bias slightly more towards Sneak Attack and opt for a 2nd Badlands, or you could just say fuck it and run an Overgrown Tomb. A Grove of the Burnwillows wouldn't be the worst thing in the world over Taiga #2, also, if you have access to those. It's nice to have more fetchable lands, but realistically the 2nd Taiga slot being fetchable is less likely to matter, /especially/ if you opt for the 2nd Badlands.

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I was thinking about either a BG Painland, Llanowar Wastes I think it's called, or possibly a BG filter which is Twilight Mire, but the more I think about it, the more I lean against wanting a BG filter, I think RB would be the color to have.

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

I have done a LITTLE testing and tweaking with his list i found that went T8 a nr of weeks ago.
Because i had the same issue with Bayou #3 and Taiga #2 i included 3x PFire and 3x Grove of the Burnwillows. It adds more interaction and it happened to increase game against DRS and whatnot. So far i liked it, but as i said, little testing.

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I don't have Groves but I have a little bit of a budget for new cards right now. I would feel better about picking up Groves than more ABU's.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

If you have Meren out, and you Sneak something ... let's say Griselbrand ... you can choose to have Griselbrand die with Meren's trigger still on the stack, which then can target Griselbrand, which allows you to Sneak Griselbrand to block with on your opponent's turn.

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This is a dope list, and I admire the cubeness. However, the sneak/gris/meren interaction doesn't work as you've described it. You choose the meren target when it goes on the stack, not on resolution. At the time Meren's ability goes on the stack, the snuck-in creature is still on the battlefield and isn't a legal target for her ability.

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Originally Posted by firebadmattgood

This is a dope list, and I admire the cubeness. However, the sneak/gris/meren interaction doesn't work as you've described it. You choose the meren target when it goes on the stack, not on resolution. At the time Meren's ability goes on the stack, the snuck-in creature is still on the battlefield and isn't a legal target for her ability.

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Doesn't it work exactly as he described? At your EoT you put the meren trigger on the stack first, then the sneak attack dying trigger. This way your fatty dies first and then you can choose your fatty for the meren trigger. Am I misunderstanding some rules interaction?

Edit: You're right, completely misread meren. Meren's ability is a target and not a choose so the creature actually has to be in the graveyard when her ability goes on the stack.

I'll just ask an L2 friend of mine. I didn't realize that Meren's trigger is worded a little weirdly.

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Originally Posted by L2 Judge Friend

So
you can stack them how you wish and you can have it so that Grisel is in the graveyard when it resolves
ALthough when you put the ability on the stack you need to have a targegt
so it wont be there for the target unfortunately

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Must say that i love the look of that list. I've been trying it for a bit and for what it's worth from my limited testing i've found Primeval titan to be a bit underwhelming as a fatty (too durdly and stronghold is nice but not really reliable against wastelands), as well as the two sakuras (bit slow as accellerants) and meren (again a bit too durdly for my tastes and with DRS and swords everywhere it seems a bit too easy to play around for a maindeck). I've found also that having only 4 sac outlets (therapies) made explorers a bit uncosistent. I also personally had some issues against mana disruption ironically, as forces on explorers and wastelanding early nonbasic drops is devastating with such a high curve.
I've added a second phyrexian tower and a greater gargadon as additional sac engines (and increased the land count by 1 for better resilence vs wasteland too), and a singleton sylvan library for additional selection alongside tops (it's possible the 4th top is just better but i'm trying 1 lyb + 3 sdt first).
I'm liking the gargadon. It's a sac outlet that double as threat after you ramp a fatty , and a hasty threat as that. Sacrificing things is also nice vs targeted removal spells. I've also had some turns were i had like two explorer and a tracker down, drew gargadon, sacrificed explorers, got tons of clues and lands, sacrificed some clues with mana, the other to gargadon and swung with gargadon and like a 8/7 explorer from a stalled board. It's also tutorable by empath if you for some reason get empath out but still need to sacrifice explorers.

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

I'll just ask an L2 friend of mine. I didn't realize that Meren's trigger is worded a little weirdly.

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Most stuff works that way and requires a target. You may not be able to sacrifice to Sneak Attack, but in the case of the Primeval Titan engine you can fetch up the two towers off the ETB, then sacrifice the Primeval to redraw the next turn, at which point you sneak it again. Alternatively if you only fetch up one tower, Meren can mimic Volrath's here.

I can see the list working. I used to have a list working on a similar premise (sneaking fatties on the field w/ Summoner's Egg).

One thing I'd like to share from this experience is how good a Tasigur/Gurmag Angler can be in the list. At times casting/Sneak Attack a fatty just isn't a possibility (for whatever reason), so tutoring up a Tasigur/Angler as 1/2 mana fatty w/ (GSZ into) Fierce Empath can either buy you a lot of time or just steal the game. It really smoothes out how the deck runs. Maybe something you'd want to consider for your list?

Oh, and Empath is wonderful food for Diabolic Intent if you can fit it in. Intent is nice in that it can find either half of the combo.

GSZ -> Empath, Diabolic Intent = combo assembled.

By the way - you can also just draw into Intent w/ Griselbrand (post attack) and just feed Griselbrand to it post-combat to find whatever you need for your next turn. Just some food for thought there.

It's sexy, looks like the best combo fit list I've seen and scratches a few longstanding theory itches I've had far better than I've done myself, so bravo good sir. Real shame about the Meren sneak interaction, have you been winning games in tournaments that perhaps you shouldn't have by using that wrong? (Not judging, just curious how relevant it is)

I'm highly skeptical of the lack of interaction, but I will be testing it for sure. Have you thought / tried punishing fire? You can cut the pulse because fires answer planeswalkers too, and then next on the chopping block would be sidisi tracker, ste, drs and a fatty in that order imo. That's the fat I would look to trim of needed. And I'd wanna test a diabolic intent too. +3/4 fires +1 intent +3/4 willows, -1 sidisi -1 tracker -1 pulse -1 ste/drs -3/4 lands.

That would give you a huge boon against creature decks, planeswalkers and grindy midrange, to the extent I think it would be more valuable than your current choices, making your main enemy combo (haven't heard that one before..) but that's just me theory crafting looking at the thing on first impressions. I'll test your list as you've written it first of course.

Cheers

@Jain: He can't cut a fatty from the 60. The numbers are tight enough already - 4 "true" fatties is the bare minimum. I've been running the Eggs list since 2007. Or rather, that's the oldest list I have that I can still find. Trust me, I know. If anything, he could stand to add another fatty.

You'd also be surprised what you get away with when dropping big ass bombs.

I'll be sparing the details, but some weeks ago i was in discussion with Warden when i finalised the following list. As mentioned before i added PFire for increased interaction and simply because i was lacking Bayou and Taiga. Grove are Sneak Attack friendly so to speak. Replacing the 9 card removal package i coughed up, Warden suggested to use:

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I think the stock list should go 2 Deed + 2 Toxic + 2 Decay. Alternatively it can be 0 Deed, 2 Toxic, 1 Pulse, 3 Decay. I think Deed is too slow in the overall meta. The decks it shines against like DnT and Maverick now have recruiter and prelate to prevent you from casting big bombs. You'll need to knock out threats early. The 2-2-2 config gives you lots of balance. I think the days of 3 deed main are behind us. Kev has different thoughts (good for discussion). He's had decent success in the past by running 2 deed. I think I'm finding a happy medium with the 2-2-2 mix. Your removal suite is still 6 cards overall. And add 3 Thoughtseize

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Current list:

Main 61
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Fierce Empath
1 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Inferno Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Recurring Nightmare
3 Sneak Attack
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Bloodstained Mire
2 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Mountain
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower

Side
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Slaughter Games
1 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Golgari Charm
1 Kolaghan's Command
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Blood Moon


Edit: Kevin is putting up some solid work on optimizing the list, while i simply achieve to get most use of cards i like. Personally i like to be the control deck with a shiney combo finish. When i saw the deck i was really excited about it. Mostly it is because of the combination of being able to play Sneak Attack, Recurring Nightmare, Griselbrand and JUND in a NicFit shell. This simply took me back to the good years of Survival of the Fittest.

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Originally Posted by Echelon

I can see the list working. I used to have a list working on a similar premise (sneaking fatties on the field w/ Summoner's Egg).

One thing I'd like to share from this experience is how good a Tasigur/Gurmag Angler can be in the list. At times casting/Sneak Attack a fatty just isn't a possibility (for whatever reason), so tutoring up a Tasigur/Angler as 1/2 mana fatty w/ (GSZ into) Fierce Empath can either buy you a lot of time or just steal the game. It really smoothes out how the deck runs. Maybe something you'd want to consider for your list?

Oh, and Empath is wonderful food for Diabolic Intent if you can fit it in. Intent is nice in that it can find either half of the combo.

GSZ -> Empath, Diabolic Intent = combo assembled.

By the way - you can also just draw into Intent w/ Griselbrand (post attack) and just feed Griselbrand to it post-combat to find whatever you need for your next turn. Just some food for thought there.

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Originally Posted by Jain_Mor

It's sexy, looks like the best combo fit list I've seen and scratches a few longstanding theory itches I've had far better than I've done myself, so bravo good sir. Real shame about the Meren sneak interaction, have you been winning games in tournaments that perhaps you shouldn't have by using that wrong? (Not judging, just curious how relevant it is)

I'm highly skeptical of the lack of interaction, but I will be testing it for sure. Have you thought / tried punishing fire? You can cut the pulse because fires answer planeswalkers too, and then next on the chopping block would be sidisi tracker, ste, drs and a fatty in that order imo. That's the fat I would look to trim of needed. And I'd wanna test a diabolic intent too. +3/4 fires +1 intent +3/4 willows, -1 sidisi -1 tracker -1 pulse -1 ste/drs -3/4 lands.

That would give you a huge boon against creature decks, planeswalkers and grindy midrange, to the extent I think it would be more valuable than your current choices, making your main enemy combo (haven't heard that one before..) but that's just me theory crafting looking at the thing on first impressions. I'll test your list as you've written it first of course.

Cheers

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I think that the Meren/Sneak interaction only ever came up once in a game, and while I did win the game, I was going to win the game regardless of using it incorrectly. I think I had Inferno Titan in my gy that was a legal target and I chose to get back the Griselbrand I'd just used that turn because it was funnier and made a better blocker in case of nonsense.

On the subject of Diabolic Intent, I originally had it in the deck, and I ended up cutting it for the 2nd Deathrite Shaman. When Intent was good, it was hella good. But even in this deck, which I tried to force an abnormally high creature count into because of Sneak Attack, even here, I had several games where I drew Intent with no creature and it rotted in my hand for a couple of turns. Sidisi is kind of filling the Intent role for me....for all intents and purposes (hue). I decided to smooth the deck out a little bit and throw a bit of utility into the mix with the 2nd Deathrite.

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IMO, there are two ways that this deck can be developed, much in the same way that Scapewish followed two distinct paths. It can be built almost as a pure combo deck with a couple of control/midrange elements (possibly to point of including Orcish Lumberjack, per Hollywood), or it can be built as a control/midrange deck with a combo kill. The difference is subtle but poignant. Warden in particular has been trying to push me down a more combo oriented list, but I'm not sure that that's actually better. Again, one of the reasons I like Deed as much as I do in this deck is that it forces Pithing Needle / Revoker decks to make an impossible choice. At the point at which we cut Deed, this choice becomes much easier for them, and we need to run more things like Krosan Grip that we wouldn't otherwise want to mess with. I also don't think that shaving a Deed for a Deluge is correct if you're using Sanctum Prelate as an argument, because Prelate will shut that down anyway. Damnation, maybe. Deluge, no.

One of the awkward problems that the deck has is that it would really love some kind of planeswalker power. Newest Nissa looks insane. Last two Chandras, also insane (6-drop and 4-drop with 4 abilities). Black has a host of strong walkers to choose from. Garruk Relentless is a proven card. Etc. The problem is that we need creature to Sneak, and we need removal, and we need Tops, so there's no real way to fit them in. Maybe a 2-of in lieu of the Finks in the board? But that would make Burn more loseable. Just a thought.

Overall, I like the feel the deck gives me at the moment, which is much more of a midrange control deck that has a combo seamlessly fused into it. I don't really want to go full retard with Orcish Lumberjack and Diabolic Intent, although I will note that those two cards /together/ actually sounds very intriguing. That route may be something that I'll mess with in the longterm, but for Eternal Weekend, I want to be on comfortable ground, and for me personally, that means not focusing on the combo to the point of watering down the rest of the deck.

PFire/Grove is an interesting idea, for sure. I still think that some amount of sweep is necessary, but one thing that I do really like about PFire is that it makes Primeval Titan even better in the deck, which, he's already insane, so hey. Finding the space for all of that is going to be tough, though, I think. As Echelon noted, don't underestimate the number of games you can win by just jamming something stupid down your opponent's throat. There are no wrong questions, only wrong answers -- if they don't have the correct removal spell at the correct moment, they generally lose when it comes to the bombs that we're throwing down (more so, I think, than other Nic Fits).

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

(more so, I think, than other Nic Fits).

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That's because you drop bigger bombs :tongue:

@Echelon & Arian, I put a fatty last on my list of fat, and didn't suggest cutting one in the end in my speculations. And I agree midrange/combo sounds much better

Fair enough on diabolic intent, perhaps sidisi is better.

I wouldn't ever cut the deeds, I think they are particularly great looking at this build.

Punishing fire can also be used to kill your vets in a pinch, upping your "sac" outlets.
So yea, my instincts tell me +3/4 punishing fires +3/4 willows, -1 pulse -1 tracker -1 Sidisi/STE/DRS -3/4 lands. I think adding that grindy combo will up the power of the build, but like I said I'll test your initial list first.

Regarding planeswalkers, I usually have two slots on my sideboard dedicated to card advantage for grindy matchups, it's possible that planeswalkers belong in your sideboard as a way to just up your threats in the face of more interaction sided in by your opponent.

A quick question after seeing Bobmans' list: why didn't Wurmcoil Engine make the cut? Played some cube with Sneak and Wurmcoil and that's just disgusting. I'm having a hard time imagining how Primeval Titan is better, or that great for a matter of fact. Is the two towers interaction really that solid despite opposing DRS's, pressure etc.? Sure, recurring a 6/6 trample every turn is nice, but it seems a bit underwhelming compared to what other fatties can do.

I'm too rusty with Nic Fit...tried a league last night, lost to RUG delver twice. And I never actually got to activate Sneak Attack across 4 matches, which left me super bummed.

Really liking the idea of P Fire and Groves, there were many times I was wanting to draw some removal, any removal. Also had both Steves in hand a couple times which felt awkward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by UseLess

A quick question after seeing Bobmans' list: why didn't Wurmcoil Engine make the cut? Played some cube with Sneak and Wurmcoil and that's just disgusting. I'm having a hard time imagining how Primeval Titan is better, or that great for a matter of fact. Is the two towers interaction really that solid despite opposing DRS's, pressure etc.? Sure, recurring a 6/6 trample every turn is nice, but it seems a bit underwhelming compared to what other fatties can do.

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He's been really good for me. Wurmcoil is either the top choice or near the top of fatties that got left out due to space. He's very, very good. The thing with Primeval Titan is that not only does Primeval tie together the Two Towers (which I have been SUPER critical of for years. This is the first build I've ever found where they've overperformed for me), but he also "draws" you 4 cards per Sneak -- two on etb, two on swing. The amount of deck thinning that represents is very high. Furthermore, that's your gateway to being able to hardcast Griselbrand and Emrakul with relative ease. It's never going to be "easy" per se, but Primeval smooths that out an awful lot.

One more question to ponder before deciding to buy into the Groves or not to make this Sneak Attack build work.

How has the deck fared against Wasteland taking it off the ability to hardcast Griselbrand and Emrakul?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Brael

One more question to ponder before deciding to buy into the Groves or not to make this Sneak Attack build work.

How has the deck fared against Wasteland taking it off the ability to hardcast Griselbrand and Emrakul?

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Hasn't mattered in the slightest. Being able to hardcast those things /at all/ has won me games, but I don't really go into games with the assumption that that is my gameplan (except emrakul vs miracles, sometimes, which they don't run wasteland so dgaf). Wasteland decks are bad at stopping Sneak Attack, which conveniently gets around not having mana sources/colors.

The deck's built to either cast things or cheat them. Shutting down one avenue only enables the other.

Has anyone else been playing BUG fit lists?

If so can I see it? Just want to compare

Just skip back a couple of pages. TTX posted a rather juicy one.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by solnox

Has anyone else been playing BUG fit lists?

If so can I see it? Just want to compare

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You have 2 BUG lists in my signature, as well.

The BUG Wish Fit list is not really up-to-date but it is a hell lot of fun to play.

I'm gonna try the Sneak build at Legacy this Sunday - will have a report for you guys. Since my meta has quite a lot of combo, miracles, and lands but not much Eldrazi, I'm gonna go with something like this:

4 Vet / Therapy / Zenith
1 STE / 1 DRS
1 Witness / Tracker / Empath
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk / Sidisi
1 Primeval / Inferno
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul

3 PFire
3 Deed
2 Decay

4 Sneak
3 Top

3 Grove
1 Taiga / Badlands
2 Bayou
7 Fetchland
2 Forest / Mountain / Swamp
1 Tower / Stronghold

----

2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Shriekmaw
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Garruk Relentless

I dropped the Pyroclasms from the side for Golgari Charm since Punishing Fire fills a lot of the same role. Since Eldrazi aren't expected to make much of a showing, I should probably also drop the Shriekmaws, but they are pretty nice for eating people's Goyfs with. To be honest this slot should probably be Carpet of Flowers.

I'm getting name-dropped. I have ideas to share.

@Arianrhod: You're so smart with this deck lol. Primetime + Sneak + 2 towers and 2 fetches (for 2 lands of choice) = 6 cards filtered out of the deck for R. That's. Just. Gross. Your points about PrimeTime opening up hardcasting is really good. Especially with a rise in DnT and Containment Priests, being able to legitimately cast stuff from hand should be the final choice.

I think Wurmcoil is too much value not to run. He's also [colorless] so even the worst colorscrew keeps him live.

@Deed: I still stand by my thoughts on Deed being too slow for the meta. Bobmans quotes me and that's still my logic. I believe the weenie deck gained so much ground against midrange stuff like Nic Fit. Sanctum locks you out, Revoker turns Deed off, and Recruiter helps them recover quickly after the boardwipe.

@Pfires: What doesn't make sense to me is pfires engine...it appears slow and requires a win-more position to generate upside. Even the gross PrimeTime interactions (grabs double grove) would mean you've more or less already won, correct? What deck is the engine great against? DnT and Delver. Again, I'm of the opinion that DnT gained stuff to outclass midrange decks. They also rock wastelands and taxing effects. Delver doesn't need to be handled with pfires. You can run other options and mitigate your vulnerability to their wastelands.

The pfires engine also needs a safety net to run effectively (Loam) -- because wasteland makes your manabase and fires themselves vulnerable. I'm just not sold on it. I'd be more inclined to run Burning Wish in those slots so I can grab a toolbox answer or run straight removal with a diversified casting cost.

@Navsi: If you aren't expecting Eldrazi Aggro, what are you game planning against?

@Midrange vs Combo: After reading the discussion, I'm still thinking the deck can go either way. If it opts for midrange, I'd drop some of the green stuff like Tracker for some value in Eldrazi, Kolaghan's Command, Wurmcoil Engine, and Planeswalkers. I think I told both Bobmans and Kev that Meren isn't needed for SneakyFit. You're ultimately leapfrogging manacosts: 1/2/3cc --> sneak (4) --> maybe a thrag/sidisi (5) --> bombs (6+).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Navsi

I'm gonna try the Sneak build at Legacy this Sunday - will have a report for you guys. Since my meta has quite a lot of combo, miracles, and lands but not much Eldrazi, I'm gonna go with something like this:

4 Vet / Therapy / Zenith
1 STE / 1 DRS
1 Witness / Tracker / Empath
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk / Sidisi
1 Primeval / Inferno
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul

3 PFire
3 Deed
2 Decay

4 Sneak
3 Top

3 Grove
1 Taiga / Badlands
2 Bayou
7 Fetchland
2 Forest / Mountain / Swamp
1 Tower / Stronghold

----

2 Thoughtseize
2 Slaughter Games
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
2 Golgari Charm
2 Shriekmaw
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Garruk Relentless

I dropped the Pyroclasms from the side for Golgari Charm since Punishing Fire fills a lot of the same role. Since Eldrazi aren't expected to make much of a showing, I should probably also drop the Shriekmaws, but they are pretty nice for eating people's Goyfs with. To be honest this slot should probably be Carpet of Flowers.

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Hadn't thought of Carpet, actually. That seems very, very strong for this deck in particular, and could be particularly good vs Miracles.

Pyroclasm will probably never leave my sideboard -- the extra 1 point of damage is just so relevant so often -- especially vs DnT, Elves, and Grixis Delver, which are three of the matchups where you most want this effect. I also furiously dislike losing to Elves, so I'm admittedly biased and have no problem going overboard on that matchup to just really jam a boot up their collective asses.

Good luck! I look forward to your report!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Hadn't thought of Carpet, actually. That seems very, very strong for this deck in particular, and could be particularly good vs Miracles.

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Indeed!!

Also, you mentioned Chandra, ToD as a possible option. Don't you think that the +1 ability to flip a card into exile is kind of shitty. Because you cannot flip bombs to drop into Sneak Attack. Also if you cast Chandra, chances are that you cannot +1 for value on both abilities. First one, you're probably out of mana and cannot cast what you flip. 2nd, you out of mana and adding RR to your manapool doesn't really help here unless you have like 1 or 2 additional mana left to do something. As much as i want to like Chandra ToD, i do not think she's really gonna be an addition (unlike Chandra, Flamecaller (freakin' 6cmc)) or Garruk R. While writing this i might even consider Garruk Primal Hunter, since its -3 becomes more or less a Griselbrand activation.

I really get Warden's point about PFire. Looking at in on paper that was my initial thought as well. I was forced to actually go with it and found it did more than i initially thought it would do. Also about Deed being slow. I just cannot accept that Deed isn't going to cut it anymore in terms of speed. That card turns games around, and talking about removal, that Deed is one of the reasons to run NicFit in the first place. Like i said, one of the reasons.
This Sneak Attack NicFit could be approached in 2 ways: 1. A more combo oriented approach. 2. A more control oriented approach (with a combo finish). Depending on your playstyle you could/should adjust the removal package accordingly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Indeed!!

Also, you mentioned Chandra, ToD as a possible option. Don't you think that the +1 ability to flip a card into exile is kind of shitty. Because you cannot flip bombs to drop into Sneak Attack. Also if you cast Chandra, chances are that you cannot +1 for value on both abilities. First one, you're probably out of mana and cannot cast what you flip. 2nd, you out of mana and adding RR to your manapool doesn't really help here unless you have like 1 or 2 additional mana left to do something. As much as i want to like Chandra ToD, i do not think she's really gonna be an addition (unlike Chandra, Flamecaller (freakin' 6cmc)) or Garruk R. While writing this i might even consider Garruk Primal Hunter, since its -3 becomes more or less a Griselbrand activation.

I really get Warden's point about PFire. Looking at in on paper that was my initial thought as well. I was forced to actually go with it and found it did more than i initially thought it would do. Also about Deed being slow. I just cannot accept that Deed isn't going to cut it anymore in terms of speed. That card turns games around, and talking about removal, that Deed is one of the reasons to run NicFit in the first place. Like i said, one of the reasons.
This Sneak Attack NicFit could be approached in 2 ways: 1. A more combo oriented approach. 2. A more control oriented approach (with a combo finish). Depending on your playstyle you could/should adjust the removal package accordingly.

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I like the PFire idea from a theoretical standpoint. I dislike it from a wallet standpoint, as I don't have Groves :S

We'll see what happens in the coming week or so as we start getting reports in from people who are trying it. I could see it working, though, for sure.

I finished off my set of Sneak Attack to try this out (more of an excuse, really - I already wanted to do that). I have no idea when I'll actually get a chance to play it but I'll certainly report back if I do. It looks like a really entertaining list, if nothing else.

@Arianrhod: If you did have the Groves, any thoughts on how you would edit your list to include PFire?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Weebo

I finished off my set of Sneak Attack to try this out (more of an excuse, really - I already wanted to do that). I have no idea when I'll actually get a chance to play it but I'll certainly report back if I do. It looks like a really entertaining list, if nothing else.

@Arianrhod: If you did have the Groves, any thoughts on how you would edit your list to include PFire?

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I'd probably start with something like this:

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 Eternal Witness
1 Fierce Empath
1 Tireless Tracker
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Thragtusk
1 Sidisi, Undead Vizier
1 Primeval Titan
1 Inferno Titan
1 Griselbrand
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith

3 Punishing Fire
2 Abrupt Decay

4 Sneak Attack
3 Pernicious Deed

3 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Mountain
2 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Wooded Foothills

sb::
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Thoughtseize
2 Pyroclasm
2 Shriekmaw
2 Slaughter Games
1 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
1 Gaze of Granite

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

Hadn't thought of Carpet, actually. That seems very, very strong for this deck in particular, and could be particularly good vs Miracles.

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Carpet has also helped me hardcast Griselbrand vs. RUG Delver on turn 4/5 or so. It's pretty damn good for those bomb (or, you know, nuke) dropper builds.

@Navsi: You're going to need at least 1/2 more fatties in that list. You'll be finding yourself in a situation where you do have the Sneak Attack but no bomb to drop more often than you'll find funny.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Carpet has also helped me hardcast Griselbrand vs. RUG Delver on turn 4/5 or so. It's pretty damn good for those bomb (or, you know, nuke) dropper builds.

@Navsi: You're going to need at least 1/2 more fatties in that list. You'll be finding yourself in a situation where you do have the Sneak Attack but no bomb to drop more often than you'll find funny.

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He has the same number I do, if I'm reading his list correctly. He just compacted the lines -- ie, he still has 1 Inferno + 1 Primeval, not an either/or situation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

He has the same number I do, if I'm reading his list correctly. He just compacted the lines -- ie, he still has 1 Inferno + 1 Primeval, not an either/or situation.

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You're absolutely right! Silly notation.

I brewed with a lot of other decks over the last year, but Arianrhod this Sneaky Build is bonkers and may help that i grap my dust-covered Nic Fit cards again. Great idea - thank you!

I also like (since i played Punishing Fit alot) Bobmans idea with PFire: repeatable Removal Spells aren't not the worst idea (look at DtB, a lot of decks with creatures), it also improves the already strong Primeval Titan.

Overall i am not sold on the full playset (especially not if you have also the PFire Engine) of Sneak Attack and would like to see a 3:1 solution, with either a single tutor like Diabolic Intent or a cc4 planeswalker like Garruk Relentless (kills a dude, stalls the field and can also tutor up bombs once flipped).

I would also vote for at least 2 Carpet of Flowers at Side, it's perfect since we already cut Explorers vs Miracle and it will help against all the tax counters (paired with Wastelands) if we play against delver decks.

@Arianrhod: I feel thanks to PFire Engine the miracle matchups improves also one step, even more with carpets. I think exclusive cards like Ugin, the Spirit Dragon, Gaze of Granite aren't needed with this Engine or other maindeck improvements. I personally would grap Garruk Relentless over any Ugin in terms of speed (cc4 vs 8) and matchups because you can use Garruk against various decks compared to Ugin that feels like he is only for "Drop a nuclear bomb vs Miracle". Gaze of Granite is more or less the same, since you need 5+ mana in most cases you can also pack other a lot of other cards but overall i think you don't need more bombs if you already include the solid PFire Engine in terms of manasink or grind.

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Some cards i like to discuss with all of you:

Kolaghan's Command: very flexible, always 2:1, it is not as dead as other removal spells if you have nothing to kill on the field and can also grap creatures for another round with Sneak Attack

Karakas: As land number 23 (with 61 cards), it will slightly improve hard matchups like reanimator, sneak show, lands (Primeval Titan can also find it), can EoT bounce Gaddock Teeg or taxing Thalia 1.0 if we wan't to slam down Sneak Attack or cast Zenith - Karakas can also be solid if we see a rise of DnT (especially if they also run Thalia 2.0) and you can bounce your own Grisel&Emrakul after Sneak. Maybe it needs legends like Sidisi, Undead Vizier, Nissa, Vastwood Seer or Tasigur.

Nahiri, the Harbinger Hell's Kitchen because you need W but this seems to be the perfect planeswalker, cc4, can cycle useless cards (synergy with PFire), a fast and perfect ultimate and on top can also kill some stuff if needed. It is possible to squeeze in 1-2 copies of her into the deck (for example cut Sidisi, and use only 3 Sneak Attack).