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Another enchantment I've been running in Rector-fit as a win condition and has been doing pretty decently is Collective Blessing. 4/4 Veteran Explorers, 5/4 E Witness makes even our smaller guys a threat.
Though I'm still just in testing phase with it.
Because the question about different versions came up quite often I made a summary of the advantages and disadvantages of the three most popular versions atm.
Rector
Advantages:
Triggering Academy Rector can handle many problem cards. If the opponent Show and Tells an Emrakul into play you can put Rector into play and sac it to enchant it with Faith's Fetters. Faith's Fetters is also a nice answer to Jace TMS because unlike with cards like Maelstrom Pulse (or Oblivion Ring) it keeps the Jace in play and because of the Legend rule for Planeswalkers the opponent can't just play the next Jace (same thing with Fetters on Emrakul). Rector also stops many aggro decks cold. It finds Deed against Swarm decks, Fetters against Burn and some decks have no maindeck out against a Moat. For the long game Recycle (Null Profusion) is a sick draw engine and Recurring Nightmare gives inevitability by recurring your Witnesses and other EtB creatures.
Other good cards that only the white Nic Fit versions get to play are big fliers. Sigarda, Host of Herons is a great GSZ target. On top of her impressive stats she deals with Planeswalkers and trades with the problematic Tombstalker. Baneslayer Angel is a solid card in the Moat version of the deck. She is a big problem for many decks in the current Metagame because she is pretty much unbeatable in a race and doesn't die to Abrupt Decay. With Yosei, the Morning Star and Recurring Nightmare you can softlock the opponent out of the game.
Post board Academy Rector can find a couple more specific hate Enchantments like Humility against Reanimator / Show and Tell decks or Nether Void against Combo.
Disadvantages:
The biggest problem with the Rector version is that with GSZ and Rector you have two tutor engines which inevitably dilutes the deck becauce both want a good number of one-offs to be flexible enough.
You cannot resolve the Academy Rector trigger against an acitve Deathrite Shaman (not every player knows how this interaction works but don't count on your opponent not knowing, especially on higher tables). With the current popularity of DR Shaman this weakens the deck quite a bit.
White does not have anything to offer for the early game. Abrupt Decay is a better removal spells than Swords to Plowshares for Nic Fit so the only thing white offers are cards that cost 4 or more Mana and at that point the other colors do powerful stuff, too.
Punishing Fire
Advantages:
The card Punishing Fire is awesome in the current Metagame. Against aggressive creature decks it kills Delver of Secrets, Deathrite Shaman, Goblin Guide, Noble Hierarch and all Tribal creatures (Goblins and Elves; Merfolk unless they have double pump Lords out). It also gives the deck a nice way deal with Planeswalkers like Jace or Liliana that otherwise would be a huge pain and can even act as a win condition in extremely grindy games. This way the card acts as a way to survive against Aggro early on and as a card advantage machine in the later stages of the game.
The Punishing Fire version also offers the best Green Sun's Zenith's of all version. Huntmaster of the Fells is a better GSZ target for x=4 than other colors have and it has nice synergy with Punishing Fire. But where the Fire version really shines is when you GSZ for six Mana: you can get Primeval Titan on 2 Grove of the Burnwillows to win long grindy games and Broodmate Dragon to have an immediate big impact on the board when you are under pressure. Dragon is especially useful for a green creature card when you face flying threats like Tombstalker or Delver of Secrets but also useful in offering two blockers or finishing the game quickly.
Recurring Nightmare is also best in red versions because of the synergy with Huntmaster of the Fells and Broodmate Dragon.
In the Sideboard the red versions have Slaughter games which is a much better card than you would expect at first sight. They are awesome against every form of control deck because Legacy Control decks often run very few win conditions and can't defend themselves against the extraction. Getting rid of Miracle's Entreat the Angels or Jaces will hurt them a lot and if you know their hand from Therapy or Thoughtseize it can act as another Discard spell that gives you a long-term advantage as a bonus.
Disadvantages:
Punishing Fire has the least raw power of the different versions. It doesn't have the same immediate impact like a huge tailor-made Enchantment or a game ending Scapeshift.
Another problem are creatures for the Fire version are creatures with a high toughness. Tarmogoyfs and Knight of the Reliquary can usually be handled by chump blocking and using Deed but Tombstalker is very good against Punishing Nic Fit. This is why this version should always run a couple of Damnations in the maindeck and one or two additional removal spells for Tombstalkers in the SB (Go for the Throat or Terminate because they also kill DR Shaman and Confidant).
Scapeshift
Advantages:
Scapeshift very obviously has one big advantage and that is that it wins games. It gives you the option to brute force victories. Even though it usually tries to play a control game, you can be behind on the board, your opponent can be up 6 cards from Jace, you can die next turn to his beatdown but if you strip away the Force of Will with Cabal Therapy and resolve Scapeshift with enough lands in play you just win which is something other versions simply can't do, they always have to be in control of the game.
And this also gives you strategic advantages. The option to simply win is great even if you don't actually have the Scapeshift because it puts a lot of pressure on your opponent. He might overcommit into your mass removal because he thinks he has to kill you before you hit 7 Mana. Or he lets an important spell resolve that he could counter because he thinks he needs the Counterspell for Scapeshift.
Burning Wish is a double edged sword so I list it under advantages and disadvantages. The great thing about Burning Wish is its flexibility. It is Pyroclasm early on and later a Scapeshift to win the game or a Thoughtseize to nuke the opponent's Force of Will and make the Scapeshift in your hand resolve. Or a Slaughter Games on the opponent's win condition, a Reanimate on Huntmaster or a Damnation against Merfolk.
Disadvantages
The big advantages of the Scapeshift version come with a price. The first disadvantage is that while Burning Wish is a nice card to have in G1 it also reduces your SB slots significantly. You usually want to have at least 8 Wish targets to make the Wish flexible enough. Not being able to run two full playsets of silver bullets is quite painful. The Wish cards act a bit like normal SB cards, but they are much slower and restricted to being Sorceries.
Another big disadvantage is the Mana base. You have to run far more mountains and Valakuts than you would ever need to cast your spells. You also don't get to run Fetchlands which weakens your Tops and your Mana stability.
The third one is the card Scapeshift itself. It is a spell you can only cast with at least 7 lands in play (it is the best spell in the game at that but (except for corner cases) it doesn't do anything before that) and it forces you to run more Mana sources than you need for casting your other spells.
@Tao, Thanks a lot for your explanation. It is great, it clarifies lots of ongoing questions in a clear and simple way.
@Tao
Haha you forgot that Scapeshift can be casted to avoid wastelocks, sac 4 lands find all basics or find valakuts and slow roll miracles with mountain triggers
Unexpected Results seems great in BUG Fit!!
Ok inc my report with Scapewish
Round 1 Belcher win 2-1
G1 -> I laid a forest into top go, he proceeded with Belcher in the face for 40
sb -1 Primeval Titan +1 Thoughtseize
G2 -> Laid Explorer go, he vomitted 18 gobos, after which I blocked to fetch 2 basics and Deeded and proceeded to beat face with huntmasters
G3 -> Vomitted 14 gobos, Burning Wish into Pyroclasm sealed the deal
Round 2 Burn win 2-1
G1-> I stripped his hand while I stabalized at 9 life and beat him to death
no sb here
G2 -> I just got burned out LOL
G3 -> Burned down to 9 and had back to back Thragtusks, he paused to read the card, mumbles about this being legacy not modern and beast tokens got there after he double bolted thragtusks
Round 3 Esper Stoneblade lost 0-2
G1 -> He had Batterskull and Jitte beats, miscalculated on mana and got 1 mana short of scapeshifting him out after wishing for scapeshift, he topdecked a clique to remove scapeshift ):
G2 -> I did over 900 misplays and got buried too far into his Jtms CA
Round 4 Burn win 2-0
G1 and G2 were nothing but Thragtusks and Hunt Masters XD
Round 5 Esper Stoneblade loss 2-1
G1 -> He controlled me well with equipments and batterskull beats. I had 10 lands in play proceeded to burning wish for thoughtseize and stripped away FoW and scapeshift FTW! He stood up and clapped for me!
G2 -> Got buried in Jtms CA and lost after being mindsculpted!
G3 -> Tiredness came in after preparing for my L1 judge test earlier and misplayed a lot and I conceded to him.
This is a korean dude and he gave me some korean idol cards and a korean abrupt decay, basically he was totally impressed with scapewish and asked to have my decklist which I gladly gave and taught him how to play this deck
Round 6 Junk win 2-0
G1 -> We durdled around with discards and removal but scapeshift topdecks >>>>> any junk topdeck
G2 -> See G1 just that the game was SO LONG that I was able to angry mountains off his life total of 52 in 1 shot!
4-2 wasn't good enough for top 8 but I think I did well knowling that I didn't touch competitive magic for so long as I was busy judging
Nah, he didn't. He mentioned that it's useful for certain corner cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
my bad :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by Siiig
I was just gonna say this, actually. There have been plenty of times where I've just Scapeshifted for value. It's also a 4-mana shuffle, if you need to do so. Desperate measure, but sometimes desperate times.Quote:
Originally Posted by fireiced
Other than that point, though, I agree with everything Tao noted.
I'm gonna do some brewing. I'll have some interesting stuff to discuss in a few hours.
I don't think it does.Quote:
Originally Posted by BlackMetalSheep
First, it's a nonbo with GSZ.
Second, 1/3 of the time it's just a 4 mana ramp with buyback.
Third, most of our cards cost less than 4 (top, brainstorm, explorer, witness, therapy), so it actually costs more to cast this than to cast them.
Fourth, the shuffle clause makes it completely random. Topdecking this into a therapy late game sucks. Perhaps if you could use a top or brainstorm first...
Fifth, you only get the card back when you flip a land. MAYBE if it let you return it to your hand either way, it would be better.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attac...5&d=1358399731
No real content in this post yet (but today, I promise). But I just noticed something that I wanted to point out.
Nihil Credo just updated the DTB forum. I noticed something strange, so I did some digging. Sneak Attack had 1 more money finish than Nic Fit did in December (13 for Nic Fit, 14 for Sneak). Yet, Sneak Attack had 107 points to Nic Fit's 61(!!!), with the cutoff at 99. For reference, Rock had 22 finishes, but only 104 points.
Apparently, the way system works is that it takes into account the size of the tournaments. As of July 2011:
So, I'm now firmly convinced that this means we will never again see the DTB forum, and we should just resign ourselves to that fate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nihil Credo
Fact: pros don't, and won't play Nic Fit. It's not their kind of deck.
Fact: people outside of this forum are very unlikely to do well with the deck.
Fact: people in this forum (aka, people I trust to actually do well) don't go to many -big- events.
Sure, I got top 16 at an SCG. My top 16 offsets (or equals) the top 16 that Scapewish got in December, at Baltimore. That won't be enough. Not nearly. If we were almost 40 points short even with a top 16 at Baltimore, we're pretty much doomed for any kind of recognition outside of what we give each other.
So, now that I'm all depressed and stuff, I guess all that we can say is this:
-) We have the best community on Source, bar none. I am tremendously proud of every person in this thread.
-) When we do go to big events, we have a history of doing very well.
-) Nic Fit has a strong prestige at events like Jupiter and Mythic IQs, which matters a whole lot given the number of ringers who attend them -- even if Council won't recognize them as "major events."
-) At the end of the day, we all struggle with the comments that are directed at us. We've all expressed our various degrees of outrage the past few pages about how Nic Fit isn't regarded as a "real deck," or how we get mocked for playing a "standard deck," or whatever other bullshit that gets hurled at us that you want to insert here. But you know what? The joke's on them: and it will continue to be so for as long as we DON'T make the DTB forum. We'll just keep sitting here, quietly prizing events. And maybe someday we'll get recognized for the amazing deck that we truly have here. or maybe we won't, and we'll continue to get derided. But either way, we'll know the truth -- that we are all, every one of us, badasses.
Because seriously. How many people get to say that they've killed a goblins player with Sun Titan recurring Pernicious Deed? Or that they've locked out 12post with Yosei? Or that they've Scapeshifted someone for 52? In competitive legacy.
So, I hope that each and every one of you carries yourself with the same pride that I do, knowing full well that despite the monkeys throwing feces in our faces, our deck is better, cooler, and requires more skill to play successfully than any of their lame netdecks.
http://cdn.uproxx.com/wp-content/upl...-applause3.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
@ No DTB: Haters gonna hare, and fitters gonna fit
@ Unexpected Results: So far GTC just looks like garbage across the board. They might pull an ARB though and put all the good whit in DGM.
GTC looks like shit because Nic Fit players aren't Boros players. Just that simple. GTC is a Boros player's wet dream, and everything else is ass....so far.Quote:
Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner
I will note that Grumpycat aka Superbob aka Darkmantle whatever does seem quite excellent, but that's not a concern for us. I can recognize it as good in the abstract, but it's not something Nic Fit cares about.
To be truthful I'm really glad that we aren't a deck to beat. I mean the surprise factor is nice, but getting called a standard deck is pretty tiring especially when I run 7-8 standard cards. The BUG Delver I played against recently had 4 Delver, 4 Snapcaster, 4 Deathrite Shaman, and 4 Abrupt Decay. And WE are the standard deck.....
Also has anyone else tested out Collective Blessing in a Rector version. +3/+3 enchantment has seemed solid in testing, but I still am unsure about it.
Okay, I've got two things for everyone this afternoon.
First up, I've got some Rector updates. This is the latest Rector list:
4x Veteran Explorer
1x Starved Rusalka
2x Sakura-Tribe Elder
2x Eternal Witness
1x Fierce Empath
3x Academy Rector
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
2x Baneslayer Angel
1x Sun Titan
1x Yosei, the Morning Star
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Moat
1x Recycle
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Recurring Nightmare
1x Enlightened Tutor
1x Abrupt Decay
4x Cabal Therapy
3x Green Sun's Zenith
1x Vindicate
1x Maelstrom Pulse
3x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Bayou
2x Savannah
1x Scrubland
3x Verdant Catacombs
3x Windswept Heath
3x Forest
3x Plains
2x Swamp
2x Phyrexian Tower
//SB
3x Carpet of Flowers
2x Extirpate
1x Memoricide
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Nether Void
1x Humility
2x Leyline of Sanctity
3x Natural Order
1x Progenitus
The changes:
SB:
-1 Natural Order
+1 Leyline of Sanctity
Whiteline is -stupid- good right now in the meta. While I want the fourth NO, I believe that there is too much discard present in the meta for the 4th copy to be a good call right now. Aside from them just discarding it if it's in your hand, even them seeing it would be a huge tip-off.
Maindeck:
-1 Deed (back to 3)
-1 Diabolic Intent
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Abrupt Decay
Right now, Rector needs a backup to Rector for when you board OUT the Rectors but still need the Deeds (Junk, notably). The Enlightened Tutor should help with this, while also helping to find Top in grindy attrition mirrors. He who has the Top wins. Rector also wants a little more spot removal than usual in the current meta, ergo, Decay. That actually gives the deck a full playset of cards that deal with Liliana of the Veil (Fetters, Pulse, Vindicate, Decay).
Note that pending testing, those two slots could easily be 2 Tutors, 2 Decays, or completely different. But that's the way my thought process is trending right now. The last time I played Rector was in the Legacy Challenge at Columbus. I played against 4 good matchups, but I couldn't find enough Deeds when I boarded the Rectors out for the NO package. As such, some extra redundancy therein is probably important.
-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-.-
Now, I have decided after these last few pages that it is long past time that the BUG version gets ironed out.
To that end, I have brewed the following. Note that this is very rough, and while it is grounded in the concept that I actually tried for BUG some time ago, it's obviously in need of tuning and experience. This is the my first serious iteration of Future Fit:
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Coiling Oracle
2x Eternal Witness
1x Glissa, the Traitor
2x Trinket Mage
1x Thragtusk
1x Magus of the Future
1x Primeval Titan
1x Prime Speaker Zegana
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1x Garruk, Primal Hunter
1x Death Wish
1x Grim Tutor
1x Recurring Nightmare
2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Helm of Awakening
1x Elixir of Immortality
1x Executioner's Capsule
1x Engineered Explosives
1x Future Sight
2x Pernicious Deed
1x Damnation
2x Abrupt Decay
1x Maelstrom Pulse
1x Academy Ruins
1x Phyrexian Tower
3x Island
3x Forest
2x Swamp
3x Tropical Island
3x Bayou
1x Underground Sea
3x Misty Rainforest
3x Verdant Catacombs
SB: 1 Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Sower of Temptation
SB: 3 Negate
SB: 8 ???
The remaining 8 slots in the board will be filled out as time passes and testing is done. I have three more Nic Fit concepts in mind that I am planning on sketching out before seriously testing: Chronos Fit, Rainbow Fit, and Friendly Fit. Chronos Fit will be setup to focus on taking additional turns, ideally by going infinite with Time Warp + Eternal Witness; Rainbow Fit will be another crack at the Chromatic Lantern concept, and I'm hoping will be a dedicated Gifts list; Friendly Fit will be a BUG-colored Superfriends list.
I don't have the time to brew all of them at the moment, but I'm hoping that they will be in a publishable form by the end of the day tomorrow. Blue-based Nic Fit has been a very great challenge for me because of the tyranny of options inherent within the color combination. Even traditional BUG suffers from this, which is why we have BUG Delver, BUG Control, BUGStill, and Shardless BUG. There is a significant number of options for viable ways in which BUG-colored Nic Fit could go, and I intend on examining each, piece-by-piece, until a consensus is reached on which route works the best (and, if any other routes are viable, like PFire and Scapewish are both viable Red Nic Fit versions). I'm sure that some of these ideas will be absolutely atrocious, but that's how we strike gold.
And if anyone wants to proxy up any of these ideas and test them out a bit, I am all for that. I'll take whatever data I can get.
I like the NO-Pro package to change rector against DRS decks.
I have done zero testing with this, but the BUG deck looks like it is trying to do too much. While I think future sight (and the combo), and ruins/glissa+trinket mage package both have merit and are powerful engines, putting them in the same list just seems like too much. I could be totally wrong, but it seems like it would be the same as putting p-fires in a list with burning wishes and scapeshift. I think if you are going to have the future sight wincon, the rest of deck needs to be "simple" not doing anything to crazy, just playing cards that are getting you value and disrupting your opponent.
I have to say though, the glissa path seems alot better now that people arent using real GY hate cards since they DRS should provide enough hate.
Also, brainstorm is a really good card. All the things that it can do are things this deck wants. I can't think of a good reason not to run 4 of them.
I love that card.Quote:
... plays Cabal Therapy from hand.
...: k?
Saptu: absolutely : )
...: coralhelm commander :D
Saptu: ? your cheating, its the only fucking nonland card i have in my hand
gtfo
...: no?
You have been kicked out of the game.
Play it, you 60-card goons! It is good :O
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/roe/3.jpg
But I guess you've all been told conscription is bad and recycling rocks : /
Well now that I'm home and off my computer I will post my results from a Wednesday night legacy I went to.
Current list is as follows.
Creatures:15
4x Veteran Explorer
2x Academy Rector
1x Gaddock Teeg
1x Scavenging Ooze
2x Eternal Witness
1x Deathrite Shaman
1x Thragtusk
1x Sigarda, Host of Herons
1x Aramada Wurm
1x Sun Titan
Planeswalkers:3
2x Liliana of the Veil
1x Garruk Relentless
Enchantments:6
3x Pernicious Deed
1x Faith's Fetters
1x Null Profusion
1x Recurring Nightmare
Artifacts:3
3x Sensei's Divining Top
Instant/Sorc:12
4x Green Sun's Zenith
4x Cabal Therapy
2x Swords to Plowshares
1x Innocent Blood
1x Maelstrom Pulse
Land:21
4x Verdant Catacomb
3x Marsh Flats
1x Windswept Heath
2x Phyrexian Tower
1x Scrubland
1x Savannah
1x Bayou
3x Plains
2x Swamp
3x Forest
SB:15
2x Choke
2x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Mindbreak Trap
1x Cranial Extraction
1x Memoricide
1x Qasali Pridemage
1x Maelstrom Pulse
2x Extirpate
Round 1: Hypergenesis 2-0 Win
Game 1: I don't recall exactly how the first 2 turns went here, but he drops a shardless agent into Hypergenesis. I found out that Null Profusion wins against Genesis lol. He casts his hand I just plop about 2/3 of my deck down and win on my next turn.
Dont remember what I take out but side in O-Rings, and Memoricide/Extract
Game2: I start out therapy naming shardless agent and hit a pair of them. I soon after drop Sigarda and ride her to victory.
Round 2: Show and Tell 1-2
Game 1: I lose the die roll and he goes Tomb-Petal S&T into Emrakul. I drop a swamp and attempt to Innocent Blood. It resolves and he never does anything other than force of will an Academy Rector.
-2 Deed +2 Oblivion Ring -1 Garruk +1 Extraction -1 Armada Wurm +1 Memoricide
Game 2: He goes Island Go. I attempt to therapy and he dazes. I attempt to drop an explorer and he FoW. I durdle and he drops a Griselbrand followed by and Emrakul. It hurt.
Game 3: Read game 1 except I didn't have an answer.
Round 3:RUG Delver: 2-0 Win
Game 1: I lose die roll and he goes Tropical into Mongoose. I drop an explorer and pass it back. He drops another land and 2 Delvers and passes. I therapy him and see 2 Goyfs and some other chaff but no brainstorm that I had named. I flash back for the FoW in his hand since he had no other blue spell to pair it with. I then throw down a GSZ for 1 for a second Explorer. He reveals a Stifle and both Delvers flip. He swings out and I trade with the Goose. I topdeck a therapy hitting his stifle. Then drop deed and wipe the field. After that I drop an Armada Wurm and ended the game with himself and 3 Wurms from Nightmare.
-1 Deathrite -1 Teeg +2 Choke
Game 2: I go turn 1 Explorer Turn 2 Explorer. He starts with double Delver and a brainstorm to flip them. My life goes from 20 to 14 to 8 to 2 before I topdeck a tower bomb off one explorer and then deed for 2 hitting his entire field. I drop a Thragtusk followed by a Rector which I tower into a Nightmare to put me up to 12 after I drop him to 15. Then I hit a GSZ onto Sigarda and its over.
Round 4: High Tide 1-2
Game 1: My worst nightmare bleh. Game 1 I speed him up and die promptly by turn 5.
Game 2: Favorite game in FOREVER this game made going 2-2 worth it. Slow roll it and I drop a memoricide naming High Tide, Then next turn I extraction his Time Spiral. The I eternal witness the memoricide and name cunning wish. Then I witness again naming brain freeze I end up doing this once more but he just scoops at this point.
Game 3: No hate after mulling to 5 and just lose.
So ended the night 2-2 but it was just a rough night on the losses. I never once saw gaddock teeg in the matches I needed it and I just lost to show and tell which happens sometimes.