4 Card Blind

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Originally Posted by Serguei

After seeing this metagame full of control and counter this list would have been devastating

Mishra's Factory
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
Dark Depths

What a shame not to play a single spell under dream halls :)

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Originally Posted by jhhdk

Thespian's Stage
Dark Depths
Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale

Would've been pretty cool too, the factories are a bit slow on their own.

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Serguei's deck would have beaten Silkster, jhhdk's wouldn't.
Factories do not need to be fast, tabernacle is :)


Otherwise, what about Tylert's proposition to restrict next round to creatures and lands?
I think it's a great idea, as I fear otherwise the rules won't be used much, and it wouldn't be very "berserker" or deviant.

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Originally Posted by dte

Otherwise, what about Tylert's proposition to restrict next round to creatures and lands?
I think it's a great idea, as I fear otherwise the rules won't be used much, and it wouldn't be very "berserker" or deviant.

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I was originally against this, as it would invalidate creature removal, which to me feels like a staple in such a round.
But how does the rest feel about it? We could do another last minute change if enough people are in favour.

Anything that makes it not secretly normal Legacy is great, because I was all set to play Ensnaring Bridge.

Asthereal's score for round FoW clone:

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
That's me. More creative this time with fun stuff like a flash uncounterable 7/7 flyer and creatures that counter. Cute, but I forgot about all sorts of stuff and it ended up a lot weaker than I had hoped.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch [B]
EDIT: I can't go for Chomium as Snatch steals it when it's a spell rather than a creature. Reading is tech. Re-evaluating below. 0-6
3. jhhdk: Aluren, Casualties of War, Cavern Harpy, Parasitic Strix
This deck has a slight flaw where it can't cast both Alluren and Casualties. The other two cards lose to my 7/7 flyer, so I just make that, and counter whichever of the two dangerous cards you decide to cast with my Whelk. 6-0
4. Wrath of Pie: Time Stop, Spelljack, Guile, Guile
Whoever decides to go do a thing loses here, I think. This might happen more often... 2-2
5. alphastryk: Mindbreak Trap, Commandeer, Guile, Guile
Luckily, one of your counters doesn't stop creatures, so my choice of Whelk really pays off here. I make Chromium, you can try to use Trap, but I'll Whelk that and Chromium resolves. Afterwards, redrawing your Guiles happens too slowly to be able to race the 7/7 flyer, especially since I of course cast it at the end of your turn. 6-0
6. Tylert: Aethersnatch, Aethersnatch, Counterflux, The Ur-Dragon
Another whoever does a thing loses. This time because I can't allow you to resolve the 10/10 flyer. If you had a Guile here, I could have gone for it, but that dragon is a bit too much. :smile: 2-2
7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap
EDIT: Nope. Trap can take out two things at once, so if I go for Chromium, you can in response Wheel. If I counter that, Trap can counter both my things. And if I let Wheel resolve, I lose my stuff and you can still Trap my Chromium because it's still on the stack. So we both can't be the one who starts casting stuff. 2-2
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
So your deck can make an uncounterable instant speed 3/4 Augustin IV. If you try to do that, I'll respond by making Chromium and race you. So you have to go for Dromoka and try to use Trap. You cast Dromoka, I'll cast Chromium. If you Trap now, I'll Whelk it and win the race. So you let Chromium resolve. We now have a 5/7 flying lifelink against a 7/7 flying with some fancy yet irrelevant abilities. If I now do another thing, you'll Trap it, and if you do another thing, I'll Whelk it, so that's a standoff. Let's look at the attacks. You can't attack fist, obviously. If I attack, you take it and attack back, but the lifelink makes you win that race easily. So I also can't attack and we have two staredowns. I'm guessing this will be 2-2.
9. GoblinSmashmaster: Grand Arbiter Augustin IV, Miraculous Recovery, Spelljack, Mindbreak Trap
10. FTW: Chancellor of the Forge, Dualcaster Mage, Discontinuity, Spelljack
FTW already dissected this. Actuallly you get 8 power, but the 5/5 can never attack into the 6/6, and the 1/1s won't get there. 2-2
11. H: Guile, Guile, Nexus of Fate, Last Word
Interesting: you can make both Guiles over and over. Thankfully you can't interact with Chromium, which will race one Guile, and casting the second allows me to Spelljack it. So I think I win this 6-0.
12. maxx!: Slaughter Games, Counterflux, Surrak Dragonclaw, Sandstorm Eidolon
My deck has flash, which is really good against Slaughter Games. Also, my Chromium races Surrak and can't be countered, so I think I win this quite confortably. Really cool deck though! 6-0
13. silkster: Counterflux, Aethersnatch, Take Possession, Chancellor of the Forge
Hahahaha! ... no. 0-6

Total: 40 points.


EDIT: Resolved the disagreements in the matches against dte and Serguei.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
That's me. More creative this time with fun stuff like a flash uncounterable 7/7 flyer and creatures that counter. Cute, but I forgot about all sorts of stuff and it ended up a lot weaker than I had hoped.
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch <- disagreement here
OTP and OTD I plan to cast Chromium, discarding Guile, at the end step of your first turn. You could discard Gearhulk to Snatch it then, but I'll just discard Spelljack and make it a 1/1 hexproof until end of turn (considering your remark in your results post, I think you missed that clause). So you wait in order to be able to use the Gearhulk and have a body and threaten Snatch. During my turn, I'll draw Guile again and attack with Chromium for 7, putting you to 13, and then pass the turn. Now you can make Gearhulk by discarding Snatch and then cast Snatch. In response I discard Guile to make Chromium a 1/1 hexproof UEOT. Next turn, the board will be my 7/7 flyer against your 1/1 token and 5/6 hulk, with you on 13 life, so you'll die in two turns, so I'll win that.
Now let's go back to your first turn. As I'll win the line above, you have to do something on your first turn. But if you start by discarding Flux to make the Chancellor, you won't have Flux up for when you try to Gearhulk-Snatch. This line will net you 2 more 1/1 haste tokens though, so let's have a look. You make the Chancellor and have a 5/5 and 3 1/1 haste guys. You attack with the gobbos. Let's see what happens if I just take the damage and go to 17. At your end step I make Chromium. You don't do anything, because you'll need the body of the Gearhulk and I have Whelk and Spelljack up. On my turn, I draw Guile and attack for 7 (d=13 / A=17) and pass. On your turn, if you discard Snatch to cast Gearhulk, I'll Whelk it and get a 7/7 bodym so you wait and try to race. You attack for 8 (A=9 / d=13) bneeding two more turns to kill me, while Chromium also needs two turns, but it'll be my turn next, so I win that race as well.
I don't see other lines that make sense, so think I win 6-0 here.

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>OTP and OTD I plan to cast Chromium, discarding Guile, at the end step of your first turn.

If you cast chromium at any time, I discard Aethersnatch to cast gearhulk, then cast aethersnatch with gearhulk ETB ability, and take control of chromium as a spell. The spell do not have hexproof on the stack, and aethersnatch does not counter. You can answer that by any counter, but that would be met by counterflux.
So I end up with a gob, a chromium and a gearhulk vs your empty board :)

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Originally Posted by dte

>OTP and OTD I plan to cast Chromium, discarding Guile, at the end step of your first turn.

If you cast chromium at any time, I discard Aethersnatch to cast gearhulk, then cast aethersnatch with gearhulk ETB ability, and take control of chromium as a spell. You can answer that by any counter, but that would be met by counterflux.
So I end up with a gob, a chromium and a gearhulk vs your empty board :)

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AH I read that card wrong. I may need to re-evaluate the other matchup as well.
So we both can't do anything and draw twice. 2-2

EDIT: Actually, how do I stop the 1/1 gobbo now I can't cast anything? Don't I just lose this?
Against FTW I could actually do things, but here I might not be able to.

EDIT2: Let's do a deep dive.
1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
2. dte: Chancellor of the forge, Counterflux, Torrential gearhulk, Aethersnatch

So if I cast Chromium, I lose it to Snatch. But you have a 1/1 gobbo.
So what I'll do is this: at the end of your first turn, I discard Guile to make Whelk as a sorry 1/1. You let that resolve. I now draw Guile and pass. I now have Guile, Spelljack and Chromium.
If you now cast the Chancellor to try and win, I can discard Guile to Spelljack it. You can Gearhulk into Snatch to try and snatch it, but you'll have to have it counter the Aethersnatch, which in turn exiles Aethersnatch, netting you an exiled free Aethersnatch to stop my final play.
So I can't counter it. But then, I have only one play out of my 3 cards, so you can just steal that one play and win with the Chancellor.

I think I lose this 0-6, no?

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

EDIT: Actually, how do I stop the 1/1 gobbo now I can't cast anything? Don't I just lose this?

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I thought you can draw by casting whelk, discarding guile.

I either let it resolve, resulting in a draw, or I counter it with counterflux, discarding chancellor.
If I take the second option, then you draw guile.
T2 you can: cast chromium or guile, that would be met by hulk>snatch. OK, then I would win this.

So you cannot start by whelk.
If you start by guile, discarding whelk, it ends up exactly the same way.

If you cast guile, discarding spelljack?
I take control of it with hulk/snatch, you cannot use whelk to counter it because of counterflux, so you have to cast chromium EoT and race. I attack for 1 (A19). If you flash in chromium to block, I can cast red chancellor one turn earlier, so not good on the race. As you cannot block guile, you attack (d13). I cast chancellor, + 4 gobs, attack with 5 gobs, guile and gearhulk --> A3, I win this race.

It seems I would win this. But I am unsure, as two days ago it seemed to me you could force a draw, but I cannot find any line for it anymore...
4 cards, a single turn, and such headaches ;)


EDIT: while I was writing what I though was most lines, you came up with others, with same ending. So I would agree and take the 6-0, unless you or someone else find another line.

On the other disagreement:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

7. Serguei: Guile, Guile, Wheel and Deal, Mindbreak Trap <- disagreement here
I reckoned someone would be playing Wheel and Deal. That's why I went for two flash threats. If you cast Wheel, I'll make Chromium in response. You can Trap, but I'll then Whelk it and you'll only have one Guile left which loses to Chromium. So you let Chomium resolve. I now have to either lose my cards to Wheel or use them. So I'll use them to try and Spelljack the Wheel. If you let that resolve, you'll again only be able to make one Guile against the 7/7 flyer and I again win. But if you wait until I cast Chromium at the en dof your turn and then use Wheel, we run into the same problems. Conclusion: you cannot use Wheel and Deal at all.
So you have to try and race with two Guiles, but then you're allowing me to Whelk or Spelljack one, and Chromium still races the other anyway. So I think I win this 6-0.

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EoT A cast chromium.
S respond with wheal and Deal, discarding guile.
A cannot cast anything that is not answering by trap, which would also answer chromium.
If wheal resolves, then A cannot answer trap on chromium.

So I think the first one to move loses, and Serguei's 2-2 analysis is valid.

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Originally Posted by dte

On the other disagreement:

EoT A cast chromium.
S respond with wheal and Deal, discarding guile.
A cannot cast anything that is not answering by trap, which would also answer chromium.
If wheal resolves, then A cannot answer trap on chromium.

So I think the first one to move loses, and Serguei's 2-2 analysis is valid.

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Oh right, Trap takes out multiple spells. And if I let Wheel resolve, I lose my cards and Chromium is still on the stack, and will get Trapped anyway.
So we both just sit there. 2-2 it is.

EDIT: Funny and sad at the same time that I spend 10 minutes analysing a match only to completely misread or confuse cards and end up wasting all that time... :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie

Anything that makes it not secretly normal Legacy is great, because I was all set to play Ensnaring Bridge.

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Yes, without changes I'm pretty sure this round is secretly normal legacy.

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Originally Posted by FTW

8. Reeplcheep: If you try to flash in Arbiter, I End the Turn and win, so that's a bad line for you. Your best line is to go for 2 threats. If you lead with Dragonlord, I have to End the Turn. Then if you play Arbiter, it would stop me from playing Chancellor, so I have to Dualcast in response. My 1/1 and 2/2 stare at your 2/3. DD 2-2

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I missed that you are a 2 counter deck that can’t actually cast 2 counters across separate turns.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

Asthereal's score for round FoW clone:

1. Asthereal (TO): Guile, Spelljack, Draining Whelk, Chromium, the Mutable
8. Reeplcheep: Savage Summoning, Dragonlord Dromoka, Grand Arbiter Augustin IV , Mindbreak Trap
So your deck can make an uncounterable instant speed 3/4 Augustin IV. If you try to do that, I'll respond by making Chromium and race you. So you have to go for Dromoka and try to use Trap. You cast Dromoka, I'll cast Chromium. If you Trap now, I'll Whelk it and win the race. So you let Chromium resolve. We now have a 5/7 flying lifelink against a 7/7 flying with some fancy yet irrelevant abilities. If I now do another thing, you'll Trap it, and if you do another thing, I'll Whelk it, so that's a standoff. Let's look at the attacks. You can't attack fist, obviously. If I attack, you take it and attack back, but the lifelink makes you win that race easily. So I also can't attack and we have two staredowns. I'm guessing this will be 2-2.

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Ok makes sense.

So we now have three people in favour of changing next round (Berserker) to "you can only play creature and land cards".
Anyone else in favour? Anyone opposed?

I'll make the switch if there's an additional +2 in favour (so 3 in favour and 1 opposed also works). Don't forget to vote.

+1

+1 (if I wasn't already counted)

So I have to change my creatureless Ensnaring Bridge deck?

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Originally Posted by dte

Serguei's deck would have beaten Silkster, jhhdk's wouldn't.
Factories do not need to be fast, tabernacle is :)

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How do either of them stop the line of Take Possession on Dark Depths (or Stage, whichever is played first) to pay the upkeep on Chancellor?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

So if I cast Chromium, I lose it to Snatch. But you have a 1/1 gobbo.
So what I'll do is this: at the end of your first turn, I discard Guile to make Whelk as a sorry 1/1. You let that resolve. I now draw Guile and pass. I now have Guile, Spelljack and Chromium.
If you now cast the Chancellor to try and win, I can discard Guile to Spelljack it. You can Gearhulk into Snatch to try and snatch it, but you'll have to have it counter the Aethersnatch, which in turn exiles Aethersnatch, netting you an exiled free Aethersnatch to stop my final play.
So I can't counter it. But then, I have only one play out of my 3 cards, so you can just steal that one play and win with the Chancellor.

I think I lose this 0-6, no?

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You cast EOT Whelk discarding Guile, making a 1/1. Then you draw Guile and stare.

If dte casts Chancellor pitching Counterflux, you Spelljack it discarding Guile. If he plays Gearhulk pitching Snatch, then Snatches the Spelljack, he can change the target on Spelljack to itself (no other legal targets on the stack - Aethersnatch has resolved). But then when Spelljack resolves it will have no legal targets and fizzle, not giving dte a free card. This is where Aethersnatch is worse than Spelljack. He can't come out of this exchange stealing a counter, whereas Spelljack on Spelljack can steal the counter for later. dte will get a 5/5 Chancellor and 5/6 Gearhulk, but you just redraw Guile and flash in 7/7 Chromium to block and kill them.

You can't race so you stare. Draw 2-2?

Edit: Just saw you looked at countering the Whelk. Didn't consider that.

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Originally Posted by dte

I thought you can draw by casting whelk, discarding guile.

I either let it resolve, resulting in a draw, or I counter it with counterflux, discarding chancellor.
If I take the second option, then you draw guile.
T2 you can: cast chromium or guile, that would be met by hulk>snatch. OK, then I would win this.

So you cannot start by whelk.

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He plays Whelk EOT. You counter with Counterflux, discarding Chancellor.

He can't Spelljack the Counterflux, but he could Spelljack his own Whelk in response (discarding Chromium is tech vs Aethersnatch). If you cast Gearhulk pitching Aethersnatch to steal the Spelljack, you could make Spelljack target itself to fizzle. Then Whelk gets countered and you have a 5/6 Gearhulk. You win.

So he lets Counterflux resolve, losing Whelk. Then he draws Guile but only has 3 cards in hand, so cannot Spelljack your Gearhulk/Snatch back if he tries to cast Chromium. You win.

Ok, so you win if he tries to cast Whelk, and if he doesn't the Goblin kills him.
WW 6-0

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Originally Posted by FTW

So I have to change my creatureless Ensnaring Bridge deck?

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You would have to change your Ensnaring Bridge deck, yes. Are you up for that? :wink:

Also, thanks for checking my match against dte. I am not good enough at this game to find every line.

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Originally Posted by FTW

So I have to change my creatureless Ensnaring Bridge deck?

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If I can handle doing so, you surely can.

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

You would have to change your Ensnaring Bridge deck, yes. Are you up for that? :wink:

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Yeah, I thought it was dumb that my top 3 ideas for this round were all creatureless control decks. It takes away from the spirit of the deviant round. I support the choice.

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Originally Posted by FTW

Yeah, I thought it was dumb that my top 3 ideas for this round were all creatureless control decks. It takes away from the spirit of the deviant round. I support the choice.

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What was your win condition with ensnaring bridge? Non combat damage to players was prevented...