Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dcosiem
Hello fellow Magic enthusiast or Death and Taxes players,
I consider myself a Legacy amateur. I've been playing this format for about 3 years. I like to think that I know the whole format, and all the cards people use in their decks. For I myself, I play most of the decks in Legacy. Perhaps willing or not, I think at this moment, Death and Taxes seems well ahead of everyone in terms of winning percentage of the field since so many new cards have been added with these new few sets. I don't think anyone can argue this point because Spirit of the Labyrinth or Aegis of the Gods are just too good to not be played in this control, hate-bear deck. Let me give you my point, Spirit of the Labyrinth must be played in this deck because it's so good against all combo/tempo/blue deck strategies. The reasons are self-explanatory--draw 1 card per turn. I'm playing just about 3 in my list I think. I only need 2, but consider it's power, I think an extra one couldn't hurt because it will likely be removed. I think this card is nuts because it serves more purpose than Thalia, which I've put her number down to 2 because simply makes powerful blue decks become fair decks, which for us makes our decks more powerful because we play more advantageous components to our winning strategy. No sir, you cannot Brainstorm at the end of my turn. No sir, you can not Ponder during your turn. No sir, you cannot cast Enter the Infinite to cast Cunning Wish into Release the Ants. No sir, you cannot pay 7 life to draw 7 cards to counter Swords to Plowshare on your Griselbrand.
I'm also going to add another point. I have 1 Ghost Quarter in my deck because I play Aven Mindscensor, which will sometimes causes my opponents to miss retrieving a basic land about 50% of the times. I also consider running 1 because the fact that so many decks play nothing but dual lands, that even destroying 1 land can cause them to retrieve no land because they don't run basics.
For any odd measure of occurrence in random deck tech, I'm running a single Chrome Mox on top my 23 land decks because even sometimes I feel that this deck still needs more than 23 lands especially during it's opening draw because sometimes I'll be stuck with non-castable cards due to non-white producing lands. That is the cost of using Wastelands and Rishadan Ports, but overall it's a good strategy when our control lock is on board.
I'm coming to agree that this deck is simply a control deck because Thaila, Revoker, Spirit of L, and Aven simply stops our opponent from executing their strategy.
Thank you for your patience. I hope you enjoy my post.
Dan
if this post is a joke ... well played. if not... i think you need to jam a couple thousand more games with Death and Taxes. DnT is easily the most thoroughly vetted/optimized decks in the format. Only RUG Delver has a more standardized 60 in the format. Running two thalia's is a mistake... especially if your doing it to jam a bad card in spirit of the labyrinth into your main 60. You are correct in saying that this is a control deck... but even more so it is a THALIA deck, run four thalia's. If your running SOL to hose blue decks and griselbrand decks then you haven't really played with this deck that much at all. Thalia against all forms of blue decks whether they be any of the delver variants, jace control decks or miracles is the premier form of our disruption our deck plays that also hits for two ... secondly our deck has overwhelmingly positive match-ups against the two main decks in the format that run Griselbrand as well (reanimator/sneak attack). SOL may stop griseldaddy... but so does karakas and revoker... which our deck already runs. A griselbrand will almost never stay on the field against DNt, or any legendary creature for the most part from those combo decks.
FYI... the opponent can still cast there ponder under sol... they just can't draw a card. they still get to psuedo sensei's divining top and set up their next turn or shuffle chaff away.
p.s. cut the chrome mox. granted a turn one thalia, stoneforge mystic, or vial plus mom sounds awesome... it is card disavantage and a single one of will screw u up more then help you. our deck lacks all forms of card selection and card draw outside of horizon's canopy because we rely on creating a form of virtual card advatnage by preventing opponents from playing their spells. Often times playing DNT you will have your opponent with a fist full of cards while your sitting their hellbent with a thalia on board and a bunch of lands and ports and cheating things in with a vial. this is what the deck does. chrome mox doesn't help that plan.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I had never played Death and Taxes in Legacy before yesterday. It had always been a deck I never paid much attention to, and I wasn't keen to play Legacy without Brainstorm or Blood Moon. But, I recently started playing the Modern Green/White deck that took the Bazaar of Moxen. The deck is impressive, and it's revealed much to me regarding how this deck works. It doesn't have the disruptive elements of some other decks in Legacy, nor does it have the clock of some other decks. But it combines the two fairly well.
I played D+T in a 10-person Legacy tournament yesterday. I won, going 6-0 in matches. I figured that I would share my thoughts on the deck, having played exactly six tournament rounds with it.
The comparison between D+T and RUG is interesting. They're both decks keen to put a game away with attackers while collapsing an opponent's deck. RUG tries to stall an opponent's mana base while using counters to hit specific spells that the opponent casts. D+T is advancing its board, putting its threats on the table while shutting down more and more of the opponent's deck. RUG is more stack-based while D+T is more focused on the board. Brainstorm is unfairly broken, but then, so is Aether Vial.
I played 25 land, and if anything, a 16th would have been nice. I played 4 Arbiters, leading me to play 3 Ghost Quarters. The synergy with Arbiter and Ghost Quarter is something potent in the Modern adaptation, and has translated reasonably well to Legacy. The fact that Ghost Quarter is a full Strip Mine against not a few decks is a strong argument in favor of the card. Another aspect of playing so many land is that you want to be able to destroy most lands with Armageddon or Cataclysm, and continue to make your land drops. Since so many of the lands in the deck do things other than tap for mana, it becomes difficult to flood out.
Which takes me to Cataclysm. The card is the bee's knees in my limited experience. One of the main problems with RUG is that it isn't especially good at clawing its way out of an unfavorable position should the opponent resolve something scary. Sure, RUG can keep the opponent down fairly well; but once something goes wrong, its only recourse is to attempt to burn out the opponent. D+T, however, has Cataclysm. This card gets rid of Planeswalkers, and reduces the opponent's board to something manageable. The opponent is often forced to overextend to handle D+T's threats; Cataclysm punishes this. It was an all-star all day for me.
Vial is amazing, and Mother of Runes is good. I'd really like another good one-drop in the deck, though. Something like a White noble hierarch. I really dislike having to pass the turn with an untapped Plains with this deck.
Alright, those are some insights from my first time playing this deck. It's much better in practice than it looks on paper.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
What? Rich Shay without Brainstorm is like toast without butter. I'm confused.
On a more serious note, I'm also intrigued by the Arbiter + Ghost Quarter tech. My only question is whether Arbiter is better than Mindcensor, but I would think he's not.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I ran 2 Mindcensors and 4 Arbiters. It worked out pretty well, and Ghost Quarter was a pretty reasonable card. I only ran the 2 Mindcensors as 3-drops. Running almost all 2-drops let Viable be more effective as it didn't need to ramp up to 3. I do wish the deck had a Mana Elf, of course.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
The only problem with forums is that when someone makes an interesting post (see my post in the previous page which can be a start to help players to learn how to play this deck and be a good opportunity to discuss about sideboarding and different point of views) people simply doesn't care and indeed they reply to an absur post (see the one below mine) which is totally useless.
I don't want to start a flame or similar, but just to point out this: which is the point of writing tons of post which says nothing new/usefull, but not replying to those posts which can actually get a good discussion started?
I mean, 182 pages of primer, and yet how to sideboard CORRECTLY seems something people don't mind talk about. Honestly, once you chose your MD build, i think there is nothing left to say about a deck so well tuned like this. On the other hand, since at least half of the game of a tournament are POST BOARD gamese, i thought that it would be good to talk about that.
Maybe i'm the only one that finds really challenging to side in best way with this deck, taking care not to disrupt any sinergies ecc...if everyone is already so good that never needs to think about sideboarding, then i apologize. But if you think that maybe this topic can be interesting, then feel free to discuss with me.
Thank you!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Dear Said-In-Contest,
Hello and welcome to The Internet. I'm entirely convinced that your parents will smile and nod in response to whatever clever and exciting thing you happen to write. Perhaps your teacher will give you a nice big red Check Mark, whatever you happen to hand in. Sad to say, we here on the Internet are not nearly so eager to laud you. Please allow me to comment on your post.
"makes an interesting post"
If your post were interesting, people would have responded. That is basically the definition of interesting.
"help players to learn how to play this deck"
I learned a lot from insightful commentary such as, ":(((((((((((."
"people simply doesn't care"
If you want people to respond to your posts, then you should write posts that people will find interesting enough to respond to.
"which is totally useless"
Perhaps you don't much care for the idea of running a single Chrome Mox. But that doesn't make this fellow's post useless. Discussion and dialogue are the goals here.
"which is the point of writing tons of post which says nothing new/usefull, but not replying to those posts which can actually get a good discussion started?"
Has it occurred to you that perhaps everyone reading these forums doesn't think that your post was good enough to respond do? Perhaps, these Internet denizens thought that the post after yours was actually better than your post. Maybe the point is that you actually can't tell which posts will start a good discussion, and which cards will say nothing useful.
"if everyone is already so good that never needs to think about sideboarding, then i apologize."
Maybe. Personally, I wouldn't take sideboarding advice from someone who can't be bothered to spell "sinergies."
Again, welcome to the Internet. I hope you'll enjoy your stay.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Said-In-Contest
[Sideboard suggestions for common matches based on list]
LANDS 23
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
12 Plains
3 Karakas
CREATURES 26
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
3 Flickerwisp
1 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
1 Mirran Crusader
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Ratchet Bomb
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 2 Wilt-Leaf Liege
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Path to Exile / Sunlance
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Manriki-Gusari
IMO
Miracles: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Cataclysm
Team America: -4 Phyrexian Revoker, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +3 Rest in Peace. +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Path to Exile
Death & Taxes (Mirror): -4 Thalia, -1 Spirit of the Labrynth; +1 Manriki-Gusari, +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Path to Exile/Ratchet Bomb
Deathblade: -3 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Manriki-Gusari
Sneak And Show: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Brimaz, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle
Patriot: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Phyrexian Revoker;+1 Manriki Gusari, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb
Elves: -3 Flickerwisp, -1 Brimaz, -1 Thalia; +1 Path to Exile/Sunlance, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Pithing Needle
Painter: -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Brimaz, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Good on Atog and Said In Contest. Unique perspectives! Bravo!!
What I'm finding sad about DnT atm is the view that it is a fixed or "standardised list", it's a meta deck. It's supposed to flex and adjust to meet meta and play styles. Now about all you can discuss is which of the 4 cards in the sideboard you are choosing to go with... or the last SCG tournament result or nothing at all.
I liked it more when you could brew and have a discussion. Ghost Quarter, leonin arbiter, SoTL, I'm putting them in. I have been running SoLaS in the SB because of all the mirror matches, so many mirror matches!!! I saw a list with Exalted Angel on Mtgo the other night, it did some solid work.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jungian Thing
Good on Atog and Said In Contest. Unique perspectives! Bravo!!
What I'm finding sad about DnT atm is the view that it is a fixed or "standardised list", it's a meta deck. It's supposed to flex and adjust to meet meta and play styles. Now about all you can discuss is which of the 4 cards in the sideboard you are choosing to go with... or the last SCG tournament result or nothing at all.
I liked it more when you could brew and have a discussion. Ghost Quarter, leonin arbiter, SoTL, I'm putting them in. I have been running SoLaS in the SB because of all the mirror matches, so many mirror matches!!! I saw a list with Exalted Angel on Mtgo the other night, it did some solid work.
Every time I read something about "meta adjustments" it's followed by mentioning subpar pet-cards like SotL. The sheer amount of possible hatebears looks like the biggest problem of D&T as of late as it provokes dicsussion about fancy, cute stuff instead of working on issues within the metagame.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
And yet, so called subpar cards are being played and posting results... In fact it is only by playing cards outside the norm that the deck has evolved. It is the pioneers, the pet card players, the radical DnT players that are the reason a "standardised" list can even be talked about.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jungian Thing
Good on Atog and Said In Contest. Unique perspectives! Bravo!!
What I'm finding sad about DnT atm is the view that it is a fixed or "standardised list", it's a meta deck. It's supposed to flex and adjust to meet meta and play styles. Now about all you can discuss is which of the 4 cards in the sideboard you are choosing to go with... or the last SCG tournament result or nothing at all.
I liked it more when you could brew and have a discussion. Ghost Quarter, leonin arbiter, SoTL, I'm putting them in. I have been running SoLaS in the SB because of all the mirror matches, so many mirror matches!!! I saw a list with Exalted Angel on Mtgo the other night, it did some solid work.
I don't disagree with the idea of breaking free from locked-in 60s (I believe this is what has led to the demise of RUG--not enough flexibility).
However, cards that are full playsets in decks tend to have a reasoning behind them--we wouldn't, for example, play fewer than four STP (even in favor of Path to Exile) because the card has myriad uses. Similarly, Thalia is an automatic four of because she excels in most matchups where Spirit is really only good against 3 or so cards in the entirety of the metagame.
I also concur with Lemnear's sentiment: D&T has access to a dearth of hatebears; we used to jam Jotun Grunt or Samurai of the Pale Curtain because there was a severe lack of better options; not anymore. Now, instead, we must be careful to choose the proper bears for our deck, not merely the most powerful against X strategy/card/etc.
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
For one, I don't think there has really been a demiseofRUG. It isn't the best deck anymore, but that's what happens when the meta shifts. It certainly isn't a "standardized 60" that has made it have slightly worse results than in the past. As for the sheer amount of bears, I agree. It is to a point now where the sheer amount of specific hate cards this deck can run makes people run sub optimal cards.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Let me ask you a question: Does D&T really struggle in the current meta?
TNN is a huge problem, but can be raced if you have enough flyers. There's also Council's Judgement that might help in that regard. Elves is just auto-loss. Jund is pretty bad. Storm combo depends on the dice roll. That's about it.
The Ghost Quarter build is cute, and while I can see it being effective in the right meta, I personally don't like it since the normal D&T lists fit my playstyle better because it has more high-impact cards.
There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but people should keep in mind that a good chunk of the list is set in stone for a good reason.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Let me ask you a question: Does D&T really struggle in the current meta?
TNN is a huge problem, but can be raced if you have enough flyers. There's also Council's Judgement that might help in that regard. Elves is just auto-loss. Jund is pretty bad. Storm combo depends on the dice roll. That's about it.
The Ghost Quarter build is cute, and while I can see it being effective in the right meta, I personally don't like it since the normal D&T lists fit my playstyle better because it has more high-impact cards.
There's nothing wrong with experimenting, but people should keep in mind that a good chunk of the list is set in stone for a good reason.
i would agree on most of those regards. i would say post board elves is actually not miserable, def not favorable but not miserable at all. same with jund.
in regards to the arbiter builds... i used to champion arbiter fervently back in the day. making room for three in the main deck at the expense of the flyers. honestly from my experience arbiter competes with the two drop way to much with thalia. arbiter requires an intense devotion of the land hate to become successful and doesn't provide pseudo protection for himself like thalia does in the form of taxing swords to plowshares or abrupt decay or disfigure or whatever kill spell is being aimed at them... as these creatures are too impacting on the game state to allow to live. my personal preference has lead me to thalia, as she just always lands down acting as a pseudo porting effect. arbiter is powerful, but can lead to a blowout on your end if they have nonfetch lands in their hand or cantrips to find additional lands. and not to mention the intense decrease in power level you get from having to drop stoneforge mystics to play arbiter. batterskull and equipment are the muscles of the deck, neutering them through arbiter never fit my taste.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I'd like to share my list that I played to a 6-0 finish in a 10-person event. The list isn't perfect; I'd never played this deck before. I wanted to focus on mana-denial, while still running the full set of Stoneforge Mystics. The lack of synergy between the two wasn't much of an issue.
// Creatures
2 Aven Mindcensor
4 Leonin Arbiter
3 Mother of Runes
4 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Serra Avenger
// Spells
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 AEther Vial
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
// Lands (25 of them)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
2 Karakas
3 Ghost Quarter
10 Plains
1 Flagstones of Trokair
1 Horizon Canopy
SB: 3 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Mother of Runes
SB: 2 Mirran Crusader
SB: 2 Cataclysm
SB: 1 Armageddon
SB: 1 Unexpectedly Absent
SB: 2 Holy Light
SB: 1 Luminarch Ascension
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
from Cairo
IMO
Miracles: -4 Swords to Plowshares, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle, +2 Cataclysm
Team America: -4 Phyrexian Revoker, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +3 Rest in Peace. +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Path to Exile
Death & Taxes (Mirror): -4 Thalia, -1 Spirit of the Labrynth; +1 Manriki-Gusari, +2 Wilt-Leaf Leige, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Path to Exile/Ratchet Bomb
Deathblade: -3 Swords to Plowshares, -2 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +2 Rest in Peace, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Manriki-Gusari
Sneak And Show: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Brimaz, -1 Umezawa's Jitte; +1 Enlightened Tutor, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Pithing Needle
Patriot: -1 Mirran Crusader, -1 Phyrexian Revoker;+1 Manriki Gusari, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb
Elves: -3 Flickerwisp, -1 Brimaz, -1 Thalia; +1 Path to Exile/Sunlance, +1 Ratchet Bomb, +2 Ethersworn Canonist, +1 Pithing Needle
Painter: -1 Sword of Fire and Ice, -1 Brimaz, -1 Spirit of the Labyrinth; +1 Pithing Needle, +1 Oblivion Ring, +1 Sunlance/Ratchet Bomb
First of all, really thank you for your post!
Just a few questions and doubts I have:
1) VS MIRACLE
Is it really correct to board out all 4 Swords to Plowshares?
I mean, they will board in 1-2 Sulfur Elemental which is a complete blow out considering that we would have no removal left!!
Is it a risck we are obliged/willing to take, or can a better decision be made?
Personally I'm trying something like this
-2 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Flickerwisp
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
+2 Cataclysm
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 O Ring
Still, I don't like the canoeist too much in this match up...why do you board it in?
2) VS TEAM AMERICA
Same plan I have. But people were saying that revoker on shaman combined with heavy land denial is very effective. Also revoker on Lilliana is not so bad. Do everybody board them out all 4? And are 6 cards necessary?
3) VS DEATHBLADE
Just a little question: is rip necessary? I mean it's good vs Deathrite, decent vs snapcaster but they have just 2 of them.
Are we willing to cut 3 Swords to Plowshares to make ro for rip? Or can we just leave 2 Plow in to answer Deathrite/Stoneforge/Cliques or dark confidants?
Let me know about your personal experiences and/or comments about my "doubts"
Thank you very much for your help!!
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
I haven't seen Miracles play Sulfur Elemental in awhile. Maybe where you are they play it, but I think the "standard" list that you will come across doesnt play them.
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jungian Thing
And yet, so called subpar cards are being played and posting results... In fact it is only by playing cards outside the norm that the deck has evolved. It is the pioneers, the pet card players, the radical DnT players that are the reason a "standardised" list can even be talked about.
Oh how I loath the empty sentence of "posting results" without backing it up. Where are all those top placing Spirit of the Labyrinth or Leonin Arbiter builds which fail to adress their own purpose by being unable to catch the early brainstorms and fetches because of their cost or turn themselves into hilarious bad cards if Arbiter gets hit by a Swords to Plowshares with Ghost Quarter on the stack? Legacy is no place for cute interactions. It leaves me speachless why people complain about TNN and Delver but refuse to run a propper number of Serra Avenger which, with equipment and/or Mother of Runes, just laughts at both blue creatures. I see Thalias, SFM's and Avengers cut to squeeze in a bunch of situational hatebears and just wonder why
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Speaking of Council’s Judgment, what is everyone's gut reaction? Good 1 or 2 of sideboard tech?
Re: [DTB] Death and Taxes
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rogan
Speaking of Council’s Judgment, what is everyone's gut reaction? Good 1 or 2 of sideboard tech?
A 3cc card sorcery spot removal in a deck with Thalia, Wastelands and Port? I'm sure ignoring TNN and going for the damage race with Avenger + Equipment is a much better idea
