each of them take up 2 slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
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each of them take up 2 slotsQuote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
Our creatures can get as big as everyone else ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Resist_Temptation
Tarmogoyf ?
Knight of the reliquary ?
Terravore ?
Dreadnought ?(even thought it's not that played anymore)
Even Rhox war Monk.
Wild Nacatl
When you face a 3/4 or more , you need two lords online PLUS another creature that is not cursecatcher (because you don't want to attack with your lords). Even if you these, you need to have protection in case your opponents has a sword, so he will not 2 for 1 you. Also, you loose WAY too much tempo just because a creature stall you. You can loose some turns because there is an opposite tarmogoyf on the board and you can't loose a lord or anything.
This is where Swords to plowshares is realllllly good. It breaks creature stalls and you can attack with your army without fearing that the opponent has swords. It manages to give you tempo. Also, it helps in a lot of match ups such as Zoo, Merfolk, Rock, Survival, Bant, etc.
Quote:
@Resist_Temptation
I know silvergil is really a nice card draw card, but my build doesn't thrive on tempo nor i miss the draw of silvergill. In my mono u list i have 4 silvergill. the lone jitte in my list is just fine for me as its just a backup or just to destroy my opponents jitte. coralhelm for me is really good, but having 4 is bad. coralhelm is a threat that your opponent needs to kill asap or it would wreck havoc in the battlefield.
as for sejiri merfolk, against bigger creatures once you have islandwalk ability even when faced with 2 5/6 tarmo you can win the damage race with 2 sejiri merfolk + 1 loa in field. sejiri is also a threat needs to be addressed quickly by your opponent especially if his win condition is via aggro.
i loss the draw 1 card and 2/1 body but i gain creatures that are threats that needs to be killed quickly or your opponent must dedicate removals for it.
I don't see the point running the list you just game us over any other merfolk that I've seen.
Merfolk wins because it tempo out your opponent, you really need that tempo, otherwise you will most likely loose in a lot of situation.
Silvergil Adpet is a MUST 4of in any merfolk list. You need the card advantage from it. You have more chance into running into a lord, and you are one turn ahead that if you didn't have it (in the sense that you will have draw one card).
Coralhelm is way too slow, especially with your version of the deck, it takes so much mana to be good that it's not worth it. You will waste mana to only get it sword it when he will be relevant.
Your version seems really slow and only run 1 jitte, while sejiri is decent agaisnt aggro, you won't be able to win the race only with one sejiri. And the argument that you gave for running it is WAY to situational. You need 2sejiri and 1LOA to race a goyf, you don't even consider that your opponent might have removal or even another creature.
By the way, running 3 waste and 3 mutavault doesn't seem liek a good idea, I would up the count to 4, definitly.
Silvergill Adept is somewhere between the second and fourth best Merfolk in Legacy. Even if you rank him fourth, You should never cut below four of him as long as sixteen Merfolk are in your deck, because the top four (LoA, Reejerey, Catcher, Silvergill) are so far ahead of the rest of the curve it's sick.
Dropping a Wasteland/Vault or one of each is kind of necessary in U/W Merfolk, as the manabase is incredibly fragile. This further hurts its case in winning the mirror, also.
The problem with listing Terravore, Knight of the Reliquary, and to a lesser degree Phyrexian Dreadnought, is that most decks that pack these guys also pack Wasteland. So you're trading off the ability to maintain your manabase for the ability to deal with them in the most efficient manner possible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor
Blue can also deal with these guys. Not as balls to the wall efficiently, but it can. Narcolepsy handles every guy you just listed except Knight of the Reliquary, who still gets to do upkeep shenanigans, but can't fight. Seal of Removal gets them off the board long enough for your army to crash through, while saving you from Iona and Emrakul. Misdirection turns their own STP's into disastrous losses. Etc.
I've not had any problem of manabase in my last 2 tournament with it. Sure, I mulliganed 2-3 times in 6rounds because I had no color sources. Also, vial get the job done for being wasted of your colors and I actually like getting wasted if it's not a mutavault in most of the situation because they loose tempo doing so, if you have a vial. Not to mention that you can avoid most of the time colorscrew problems by fetching intelligently. Fetch for Basic, then you keep a fetch uncracked. Or you can play 4 tundra (like I did) and most of the time fetch for them, the chance that your opponent run in as many waste as you will have tundra is pretty low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Also, a lot of people won't waste your tundra because they will was to keep it for a mutavault and even if they do, it means one less waste for your mutavault. Also, 4 Wasteland is also really good, there are always situation where you can waste their waste for a basic, their mutavault and colorscrew them. I would never go below 4 wasteland because I've won so manytimes because I had the waste for his important color of the waste for an important land (academy ruins for example). Also, you already have Silvergill Adept and Standstill to help you stabilize your manabase.
For the replacement of swords in mono U, they are really narrow. To answer Iona, you need to have your seal in play, while the UW would either be able to race it or be able to remove it. Misdirection doesn't seem like a good sideboard card because you are already pitching many card for Force Of will, you don't want to do the same for MisD. I would run Divert anytime before running MisD. Also, the Narcolepsy or Seal doesn't really help you in the worst match up, and it's where the white shines. Grim Lavamancer is still not removed, Qasali can save their relevant creaturesfrom narcolepsy, bouncing annoying creatures like Kitchen FInks is often not a good idea. I don't think the one turn that Seal give you agaisnt the rock or zoo will make you win the match up.
First of all, most of the basis of your defense of weakening your manabase is based on your opponent incorrectly using Wasteland. The opponent gets to pick the best situation. Good players won't fire Wastelands at your Tundra when you have a Vial unless they gain enough ground by shutting you off White to do so, which they might. Players may hold it for your Mutavaults, but they may not, and they get to pick accordingly. You have to assume your opponent's going to make the best play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Raptor
Seal of Removal isn't nearly as narrow as you think. I've been testing it a long time and it's incredibly versatile. It's really not hard to get a 1-drop down before an Iona. Swords won't pitch to Force when you need it to. Swords won't save your own guy in a pinch. I 2-0'd Zoo in Atlanta off the back of Seal of Removal's ultra-sexy tempo boosts.
And your chance of avoiding trouble in your manabase is less than you think. You won't always get two fetches. And if you have a setup like Tundra, Island, Mutavault, the Wasteland can either get your manland, or get your White source AND your access to double blue. You -will- pay consequences for trying to make 2 colors out of 13 (14?) lands in a manabase.
Seal of Removal is certainly an interesting approach, but I guess the question is where do you have room for it? My list at the moment is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
Lands(20)
13 Island
4 Mutavault
3 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
3 Merfolk Sovereign
3 Coralhelm Commander
Spells
4 Standstill
4 Ęther Vial
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
2 Umezawa's Jitte
Sideboard
4 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Back to Basics
I'm intrigued by the idea of Seal of Removal, but the only place I can see to put it are the Jitte slots, and it doesn't seem like running just 2 Seals would really have the desired effect, and Jitte is really strong in certain matchups, allowing you to put a lot of pressure on an opponent without overextending. I guess dropping the creature count is another option, but I feel like that might slow the deck down a bit, and speed with disruption backup is kind of the backbone of this deck.
Putting them in the sideboard might work, but it doesn't seem like Seal really has enough power against specific decks to replace something like Hydroblast or Submerge: I think I'd much rather have either of those in a situation where they actually effect an opponent's deck.
Seal of Removal's a terrible board card. It's useful maindeck because it's moderately good against everything that doesn't have a card with Storm in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Q 221
My list is five cards off from yours. +1 Island, -1 Wasteland in the manabase. -1 Soveriegn, -1 Coralhelm, -2 Jitte, +4 Seal of Removal in main. You don't often miss the extra Merfolk. You only sometimes miss the Jitte. And I run 3 in the board.
My questions to you would be as follows.
1. You say Jitte allows you to avoid overextending. What exactly are you wanting to avoid overextending against? Pernicious Deed/Nevinyrral's Disk/Wrath of God? I ran into one deck playing ANY of the above (Deed) the whole day, and I'm willing to wager that was more than most people. I'd generally rather go balls to the wall and see where it leads me. The neat side is that if you do run into a board sweeper, Seal of Removal saves your most important guy on the board, where Jitte just dies.
2. Aside from the mirror, Jitte isn't strictly superior to Seal of Removal in ANY matchup (Situationally is a different story.) You will lose as many if not more games to Goblins because a Lackey hit you than you'll win because Jitte stayed on a creature that got there. Against combo, Seal at least pitches to Force. Against Control, Seal saves your guys. And I run 3 Jitte in sideboard to help ensure I win the mirror at all costs.
3. Why are you worried about cutting 2 Merfolk for 2 Seal of Removal, when if you need more Merfolk, Seal can save yours from opposing removal? Granted, sometimes it's nice to hit 3-4 Lords and just go nuts, but often you need something to buy time to make that feasible.
Seal of Removal answers some of your biggest problems and is simple, versatile, and effective if used correctly. Just don't be too quick (or slow) to crack it. I've seen a few players pick up my Merfolk deck and make me cringe by being too trigger happy with the Seal.
I am intrigued by this deck. But instead of Cliques, what about Stonybrook Banneret? They make all our merfolk and wizards cheaper.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheSleeper
All very good questions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
1. That's a good point, I think my days playing Landstill has resulted in me considering mass removal to be disproportionately useful. The only thing that wasn't mentioned was EE, but that'll be at 2 anyway and probably result in Jitte getting smashed. And I hadn't even considered the possibility of using Seal defensively.
2. This isn't really a question, so i don't really have a response, but I'll agree with the statement you made. There's enough artifact hate floating around the format that Jitte isn't really a guaranteed clock, and it's often kind of just sitting around in this deck because between dropping new lords and swinging with Mutavaults, there are often better uses of the few lands we hopefully have in play.
3. My concern wasn't so much losing merfolk to removal as not drawing into enough of them to really start pressuring an opponent. I suppose a 2-card difference doesn't really do much to this one way or the other, but I hate it when a perfectly good hand loses a game because I can't follow through, and running more merfolk seemed to help with that.
I also like that you're running one less Wasteland and one more Island: as good as Wasteland is in the format, nearly every deck at least keeps it in mind when building, and I don't remember a lot of situations where it was really that strong. I've got Back to Basics in the sideboard for nonbasic-hosing anyway. And there have been quite a few times I've had to send an otherwise amazing hand back because the three lands I drew were all colorless. I'd consider dropping wastes entirely, but they do occasionally screw over an opponent, so they're probably worth a couple slots.
I'll try out the Seal of Removal approach and see how I like it. It would certainly be nice to have some way to deal with creatures in the deck.
To get back to this point. I don't like your combinations. My experience with the deck is that Sovereign works well with Wake Thrasher, because, if you get both on the battlefield, Thrasher becomes unblockable and will win you the game then and there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamut056
On the Factory/Mutavault discussion. It's true that they both, usually, block for three. But blocking isn't really an argument. I mean, I'm usually losing when I'm blocking with my Mutavaults.
Mutavault Islandwalks!
On Silvergill Adept: I really like this guy. The cantrip should not be underestimated. Adept is awesome off of a Vial. I don't think I would ever drop the number of Adepts below four.
My question to you guys;
On these boards, people tend to run Jittes and often don't even consider Wake Thrasher. In the Netherlands, I don't think I've ever even seen a list without Wake Thrashers, and Jitte's seem to be (somewhat) rarer. Is this a metagame issue? Anyone with experience in both builds willing to comment?
So I tried the infamous Faerie inclusion, and ended up with the following list:
[Creatures]
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher
4 Spellstutter Sprite
2 Vendilion Clique
[Instants]
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
[Artifacts]
4 AEther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
[Enchantments]
4 Standstill
[Lands]
12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
I've played around with it a little, and I have to say, those Spellstutters are staying where they are, they're completely insane and even more so with a Vial out. I'm not sold on the Vendilion Cliques to be honest, but future testing will have to prove that.
My sideboard changes nearly everyday so I'll leave that one for now.
@ Mayk0l - I'm dutch and yet I'm no fan of Wake Thrasher. I agree when he's at it's best you'll be swinging for tons, but I feel that when you're doing that you're not losing in the first place. When you are, however, he's just a 1/1 for 3. Jitte does have the capability to swing games around in your favour if needed. Sure, if you're losing it might be hard to get there as well, but it'll pressure your opponent alot more.
Er, actually, I meant to say +1 Wasteland and -1 Island. I'd never run less than the full four Wastelands. It was my MVP all day in Atlanta.Quote:
Originally Posted by Q 221
Oh, I was seriously wondering why you'd play 2 wasteland in Mono U merfolk, it's sooo good. In mono U, I've found that you often need Echoing truth for the win over humility, Moat, multiple creatures (Empty the Warrens, Ichorid/Zombies). Didn't you miss the truth ?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tacosnape
@Cesarius : If your meta doesn't have too much wasteland, I would definitly cut an island for riptide laboratory and if there's alot of wastes, you can cut a card to add the riptide. When I played the list, it was MVP. You return Clique / Sprite to soft lock someone. You can bounce you silvergill for a draw engine, or bounce it to tap a creature if you have a rejeerey in play. You can also return your cursecatcher and do some annoying things such as defending a creature and before combat damage return cursecatcher. I've won several times bouncing my cursecatcher to block an opposite creature with jitte so jitte doesn't get any counter.
I have not done any testing with seal of removal, and I have to ask how does that affect the zoo matchup. How much better does it make the matchup i guess is what I am asking.
Two merfolk decks top 8'd at Jupiter Games over the weekend, a mono U, and a UG list. I was mono U, tourney report found here so I dont repost it: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...15-10&p=456392
how was wake thresher for you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
As expected, really great in matchups that didn't read zoo. It being a 1/1 on my turn only hurt me round one facing down opposing goyfs, but it kept my opponent from swinging until he clearly had position. It puts people in awkward spots, swings games, easier to cast than sovereign. It's a preference choice though, and I want to test with sovereign in the same slots. Being able to tempo with rejerrey though makes me think getting one hit in with thrasher fits my style more, but I'll see
I ran a pretty similar list, but got destroyed at that tournament. Rounds 1, 2, and 3 I played against New Horizons. Lists running tarmo, knight of reliquary, and terravore. Even with four Relic of Progenitus in the side, I wasn't much of a match for them as KGrips kept raining down upon me. I also couldn't find an island or an aether vial to save my life and the games where I did, I couldn't find a daze or a FoW. It just seemed like an entire day of terrible luck. In one game, my first hand didn't have a single land, 2nd hand only had a wasteland and no vial, 3rd hand had no lands, finally kept the hand of four cards with Aether Vial, Cursecatcher, FoW, and Relic of Progenitus, hoping to find a land within two turns. Obviously it didn't go well. There were alot of other merfolk players there at the lower tables too. I'm glad you made it into the Top 8 and represented.
i am really liking stifle out of the sideboard right now. Nobody is really expecting the card.
So I finally picked up the Forces for this deck, and I was going to run a pretty generic build.
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Rejeery
2 Coralhelm Commander
2 Merrow Sovereign
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Echoing Truth
4 Standstill
2 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
12 Island.
Can anyone suggest a SB for this build? I was thinking:
4 Submerge
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Faerie Macabre
for openers, but I'm at a loss for the other seven slots. My shortlist is: BEB, Spell Pierce, more GY hate, Seasinger (such savage anti-U tech) and Back to Basics. Any thoughts?