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Honestly 95% of the times I cast my ugly FNM Brainstorms I know what I'm looking for and I know what I don't need. But I see people misplaying Brainstorms all the time. Most of the Bs misplays are due to timing though. Understanding the timing is not easy at all, it takes lots of practice.
Yep, in the end it all comes down to understanding this… but to me it is skillful. Well, at least for me it took a lot to be able to cast Bs with decent timing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Meh. As long as people are willing to waste time attacking Brainstorm, I'll be around to rebuttal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Like I've been saying. You guys may not think Brainstorm is that complicated a card, but then what actually is complicated in this game? Cabal Therapy? Just name a card in your opponent's deck that you're afraid of. Green Sun's Zenith? Just find the best duder for the boardstate. Ad Nauseam? Draw as many cards as you can and not die. See? It's not that hard to reduce some of the game's most complicated cards to "not that skillful."Quote:
Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer
What makes Magic difficult is that there are a very large number of minute decisions that add up over the course of a game. The fact is that casting Brainstorms (or GSZs or Therapy, etc) involve much, much larger decisions than the average decision in Magic. In a format where the order in which you play your three lands can easily lose you the game, deciding when to cast Brainstorm, which cards you need, which cards you will need, what to put back, the order in which you put them back, and whether or not to shuffle them away before your next draw is comparatively makes Brainstorm a very complicated card. Most likely, if you think that casting Brainstorm is easy then you are probably just not doing it very well.
Definitely time to break out the banhammer on TNN everyone, 4 copies in the top 16! 4!
So from the last SCG, we have:
Blue (10):
4 UWr Miracles
2 Sneak and Show
1 American Delver
1 ANT
1 BUG Delver
1 Esper Deathblade
NonBlue (6):
2 Jund
1 Death and Taxes
1 Deadguy Ale
1 Elves
1 Goblins
Midranged (6):
2 Jund (Deathrite)
1 Death and Taxes (SFM +Vial)
1 Deadguy Ale (SFM)
1 Esper Deathblade (Deathrite + SFM)
1 Goblins (Vial)
Control (4):
3 UWr Miracles
1 Miracleblade (SFM)
Combo (4):
2 Sneak and Show
1 ANT
1 Elves
Tempo (2):
BUG Delver (Deathrite)
American Delver (SFM)
Midranged still represents most of the field, with a slight increase in Control and a slight drop in Combo and Tempo.
We see that Blue is much less present in this top 16 than normal, with only 6 TNN and 8 Delvers present.
Stoneforge Mystic, however, is everywhere with 19 copies present.
Numbers of good anti-TNN cards are also on the rise and could account for the lack of TNN, with 16 Lilianas and 14 Terminus present.
Maybe people just got sick of playing it. I mean no matter what side of the table your on, TNN is not fun to see.
It's warping the meta so much that even it can't compete! :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Sure looks like to me people are starting to put on their big boy shoes and start to deal with it. Glad to see D&T and Jund doing well at the Open too.
Or maybe it's just not the Legacy ending card a lot of people scream it is. It's almost as if the metagame has adjusted to it, is that even possible!?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
No it isn't possible, take your vile wicked notions and leave, venture back into that hole of inequity you came from
It bears repeating that most people want the card banned because it creates games that are consistently unfun to play and watch, not because the metagame is unable to adjust to it. I could adjust to wearing socks made of broken shards of glass, but I wouldn't want to.Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
Mostly this. I mean sure we SHOULD have to adapt to not simply being able to play StP or Pfire and calling it a day as far as removal goes. I'm fine with running different types of removal to deal with different threats. My issue really being that to deal with it you kind of have to warp your deck around dealing with it or you simply can't beat it. It's not like Nimble mongoose who has shroud, but is not evasive and can't infinitely chump block. I think the protection really put it over the top. If it had been hexproof, unlockable, it wouldn't be that big a deal. The protection from like pyroclasm and being able to infinitely chump dudes is the part that makes it so miserableQuote:
Originally Posted by Zilla
I just hate when suddenly a game that I have worked to a decent board state becomes, oh he dropped a TNN and now if I don't win in two turns I'm just dead
Sorry for the double post, but I feel like this just adds onto the Blue being the best color. Not necessarily because TNN is blue, but because with all of the varying threats that legacy must deal with it is hard to have answers to every single one of them, and counterspells are the best generic answer that can answer most of the big must deal with threats in legacy.
I mean, the meta sure seems reasonably healthy at the moment. It's true that True-Name Nemesis didn't implode the world. Decks like Jund seem to be popping back up. Like Zilla said, it still doesn't make TNN an enjoyable card to play against. I'd still think that an errata is the best option (the lack of a trigger seems like a big design oversight), but a ban seems premature or even unnecessary.
I disagree. We never had less top performers since the mid 2000's which were Goblins, RUG and Landstill. According to Patricks recent DtB analysis you have to play Miracles, SFM and/or DRS if you want to compete. As mentioned before in this thread, TNN is annoying die to it's lack of interactivity, but the card that is stifling the development of the Legacy metagame is SFM which is in every control and Aggro deck atm (even in Miracles). Pretty much like Tarmogoyf a few years back, but it was clear that people here rather rant about blue cards instead of realizing that there is an issue with hyperefficient, easy splashable threatsQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I'll agree that there are a whole lot of SFMs around these days... It's basically a better (but slower) Tarmogoyf that's in White. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is exactly, especially since it makes Death and Taxes a deck.
I would say that more than anything, the increase in SFMs is due to the increase in TNN hate (Terminus, Liliana, Show and Tell, etc). Sure SFM works well with TNN, however, if you happen to be trying to beat the decks that beat TNN then SFM is highly resilient to both sweepers as well as Liliana. Like Tarmogoyf its a solid clock against the combo decks that try to go over TNN... but unlike Tarmogoyf, a Batterskull won't fold to a sweeper.
Problem...? I wouldn't say so yet, but possibly something to watch.
D&T just got booted out of the DtB-section, so there goes that point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
I say ban Brainstorm, Daze & FoW. It leaves blue-based combo decks nice and open to all kinds of silly hate and also forces everything running TNN/SFM (yes, yes, except for D&T and perhaps Maverick) to get creative. I'd honestly be curious as to what that would do to our metagame. I can't imagine banning the 3 most played blue cards to not have a massive impact.
Ban Force? Have you lost your mind?
Shock and awe!
Um, no. It's foolish. Beltcher and Oops become royal pains that are almost impossible to stop, half the leading decks in the format implode and we really gain nothing for it. Daze also, no reason to ban it.
Brainstorm is the one card you have mentioned that the format can move along without. I do not want it gone, but it would not be the death of Legacy if it was.
But Force, I am a Red player, and if Force was banned, I would pack up and sell that weekend.
The meta'll find a solution against every dominant strategy. If it doesn't, more bans can ensue.
Combodecks with consistent turn 1 kills run amok? Just ban some more cards key to those decks. Problem solved!
Don't forget that the banning of any card doesn't mean no other card will ever get banned again.
But that's unnecessary. Force is a fine card that polices the format well enough on its own. Also it allows for decks like Beltcher to exist. There is no reason to take out Force and then go "Well shit, now we have to cut out Beltcher, Opps, TES, Kobolds...."
Force of Will is a service to the format. It's more than a card. I am head and shoulders against shooting the policeman and then asking for Lynch Law to take its place.
It's funny how a stupidly uninteractive design gets printed, metagame goes haywire, and somehow SFM is the culprit? When it was perfectly reasonable before and can be dealt with/mitigated in all manner of ways both standard and more creative.
And yeah, it's not about TNN being in every deck, it's the shitty games and how interesting archetypes get shoved out because you have to deal with the fish. The ground-based game is practically gone. Everything flies, or wins via combo. Or plays the goddamn fish.
re: Suggestion to ban force, add me to the "sell and bail" crowd.
We have a grand total of 4 decks that do not fit the mold of playTNN/ignoreTNN are 2 Jund, 1 Deadguy and 1 Goblins. Let's see the lists:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Deadguy: 4 Lilianas MAIN in addition to a Gatekeeper with 3 TNN hate cards, 2 ETutors and a Manriki-Gusari in the side.
Goblins is surprisingly normal. 3 Tin Street Hooligans main, 2 KGrips in the side.
Jund: 4 Lilianas in the main, again. Chainer's Edict in one, Golgari Charm in the other. 2 EPlagues in the side for both.
Business as usual, TNN is fine, move along folks. Nonblue decks just have to start with 4 Liliana now, it's fine. The format can deal with it.
What you're saying is that FoW single-handedly determines what can and cannot exist in the format. Without cards like Fow/Daze (and, to similar degree, Brainstorm) I reckon any Uxy-Delver deck (i.e. over 50% of the current meta, including anything running TNN) pretty much kicks the bucket, other decks (Reanimator/Storm) would have to adapt and a number of new decks would get a chance to see the light of day. A card having such an effect on a meta - isn't that exactly what should be banned?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Or perhaps ban fetchland to make it harder for people to run 3 color good stuff decks? Fetch as a whole also appears in pretty much every deck played.
Dude, I see where you are coming from but I think your question is at a philosophical level. From a practical point of view I think your reasoning is bs. No offense intended.
None taken :smile:.
I like to get people to think outside of their comfort zones. Too bad people prefer to go "Meh, BS" and be done with it.
You're not breaking new frontiers here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
This has been suggested or considered before and has pretty much universally been decided that it would really bad. You either ban Force of Will and then ban A TON of other cards, getting rid of tons of deck or you ban Force of Will and fast combo becomes tier 0.
No I think it is a fair point really but I don't have the brain power today to crunch on the idea and figure out why it is OK for some cards to fundementally shape the format and others not :)
SFM - that's Survival-Vengevine argument... if so the problem is SFM-Batterskull - stupidly overpowered and efficient, otherwise equipment fetching seems fun and interesting (not that I'd ever do so), on the other hand I'd like to see multiple equipment deck again Sea Stompy style...Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
why banning BS is end of legacy is obv. you significantly cripple both combo and tempo
strict performance related (un)ban like in modern will just result into drop of interest and attendance in legacy
I guess that depends on the role of the card in question. If a card shapes the format but let's many interesting and complex decks exist because of it, that's good. If a card singlehandedly pushes out many interesting and complex decks then it's bad.
I would have been surprised to be the first to bring it up and I'm pretty sure other people'll bring it up some time after I do. Without people stating the world was round every now and again, we might still have believed it to be flat. To be honest, I know it's possible I'm calling the world a cube or pyramid by saying a number of cards should be banned but admit, all of this is purely theoretical anyway. For all we know the next dominant deck in a world without Brainstorm/Daze/FoW is the deck running 56 Plains and 4 Squires.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will_L
The only way to find out what would really happen is to actually go and do it. Until then the world of MtG Legacy might indeed already be the sphere we think to perceive it to be but at the same time it could be a cube or pyramid for all that matters.
Anyways, enough philosophical stuff for now.
Edit:
Thank you for that wonderful reaction :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Edit 2:
Thinking about my own post, I had the following idea - WotC should introduce some sort of Future League (similar to the ones they run during set/block development) where they test bannings and their effects on the meta as discussed on forums like this to determine whether a ban would or would not be beneficial to the format. That way, the ideas uttered here can be given backing by a form of empyrical evidence and may even eventually be put into effect for actual sanctioned tournaments.
That's a fine idea, but it's more likely that magic online would be fixed before money is spent on that. Now ask online players what the likelihood of the first point happening is.
I know :)
How is asking for decks like Maverick, Goblins, etc to play 4 Liliana fine? If you have reasons that go beyond what ideas I can muster then feel free to explain.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zombie
I take it you're not familiar with sarcasm..?Quote:
Originally Posted by mishima_kazuya
Looks like. I was one of the guys thinking it would warp the format in a very negative way, but it seems that I was wrong. It did change legacy by making Canadian not the best deck (about time) and turning shardles BUG into BUG Delver. The good thing is, decks running TNN are imo not among the top 3 decks of the format. Mostly Jund and Miracles keep it in check. As for now I think the format is very diverse and fun to play with the downside of TNN being very often a blowout/unfun card (I still don't like TNN).Quote:
Originally Posted by HSCK
If I could make changes to the B/R list I would unban a bunch of stuff, but according to my standards no bannings are necessary.
I'm sorry, but where in my post did I ever say that force of will should be banned?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
I think it is has warped the format in a negative way still but not as bad as people thought it would. My argument for how it has warped the format negatively is that Death and Taxes and Elves have been under performing since that card came out. I never played those decks, but it was nice having a decent amount of Tier one non-blue options in a blue dominated format. They are still good decks but more like Tier 1.5 at this point. I'm of the mind currently where I would be happy to see TNN go but I wouldn't be pissed if it stayed either. The format is still skill intensive and fun to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by catmint
Sorry mate. I am on my phone and I was trying to answer Echelon. I must have hit the wrong post to quote. My apologies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I love this kind of reasoning! If it's bad for Elves, ban it! Power to the little green men! :laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonslayer_90
That would be interesting if only it wasn't debated to hell and back by Dr. Jones and pretty much everyone understood that it would be the worst thing ever to happen to legacy. You'd basically get a Modern-long ban list for no reason if not to reduce interactivity because apparently interactivity is bad and everyone should just play creatures, even better if you can't interact with them, thx shitzard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
How embarrassing, I just reread his post and now it makes sense. But in my defense I had just woken up. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon