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Just in time for the last stretch of summer we bring you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
When formats gone wild!
That damn format warping gone too far again? Then clearly, calling for the banning of the card that isn't winning, is what I would do to curtail all those 60%-match-up-rates-half-of-every-top-8-32-in-every-top-8-4-of-in-every-deck thing that is going on recently.
When you get right down to it, the card that really needs to be banned is Island. Talk about format-warping. Sheesh!
Throw in Undergrounds and Trops just for good measure.
If Gush got unbanned I'm sure Menendian would write a 360pg book which would be available both in hardcover and Kindle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vacrix
Which boils down to 'try to play it on your third land-drop turn or later, but earlier is okay too in certain situations'Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
The deck would be different in Legacy though, with having access to 4 Brainstorms, and potentially 4 Merchant Scrolls. However I think it would be not *quite* as broken since you don't have access to Yawgmoth's Will, Fastbond, or incredibly powerful 1-card combos like Tinker. It would obviously be incredibly good, but without having as ridiculous of a shell surrounding it I'm not so sure it would be broken. An interesting card to consider unbanning.
I think Gush would push RUG over the top. RUG is currently very good, it doesn't have a way to generate actual card advantage but makes use of its resources in such an efficient way that by the time it almost empties its hand and traded resources with the opponent, it will be in an advantegous position, probably 1-2 steps ahead. If you give this deck a way to generate actual card advantage on top of that, RUG will trade off resources more efficiently than everyone else, empty its hand and fill it again to make sure that you can never come back. In other words I think the deck would be imba.
Gush has essentially no drawback and can be played everywhere. Dodge wastes, draw 2 for 0 or even +1 mana sometimes? I'd unban half of the list before Gush honestly.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Yes Griselbrand has warped the metagame so much it put one player into top 32 at GP Ghent. It warps the meta so hard it put a total of 3 players in top 32 in Atlanta. It's so format warping it's had a grand total of one SCG top 8 this month.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pippin
So obviously Griselbrand is as broken as Necro, Bargain, Survival (+Vine), and as format warping as Misstep... OH RIGHT.
Switching gears, if anyone thinks Gush is ever close to fair they are forgetting everything about the card.
It's free, the lands can be tapped to float mana in response, it can generate mana, it generates + 3 card advantage, it nullifies Wasteland, it can be hardcast in a pinch or pitched to Force... Nothing about Gush is fair.
As much as I usually appreciate your opinion, I think you are dead wrong on this one. Did you play Extended just before Ravnica came out? That old format with Tempest and Masques Block legal? There was a grow deck using the Onslaught fetches, but obv. no legal fetchable dual lands. With Gush unbanned this would be my starting point for further development:Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
4 Quirion Dryad
2 Meddling Mage
2 Psychatog
4 Mox Diamond
3 Exploration
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gush
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
1 Misdirection / Foil
2 Merchant Scroll
2 Cunning Wish
1 Fire / Ice
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
There might be better options nowadays besided Meddling Mage and Tog, but those are the ones we used at that time. As much as I'd love to play with Gush in Legacy, I think it would be ridiciously strong and would be pushing a lot of strategies to the sidelines.
Ugh Exploration is trash in GroATog. Youre fine with Mox Diamond alone. Also your list runs 2 too many lands.
What about Lorescale Coatl as another threat in that MiracleGro list? I mean you're gonna be drawing cards from Gush and Brainstorm?
Then again Goyf just outclasses it in that kind of build.
And he would probably still be running a bad list.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
I personally don't think unbanning Drain would create a single dominant deck at all. Drain is not a very good card against RUG for instance. However, I wouldn't unban it because of price issues. People might say that shouldn't be an issue, but in reality it is a huge one.
Psychatog? Quirion Dryad? I would just jam Gush into RUG and call it a day. Something like the following:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blitzbold
19 Lands (with probably one being a basic Island)
4 Goyf (or -1, +1 Scavenging Ooze)
4 Mongoose
4 Delver
4 Bstorm
3 Ponder
4 Gush
4 FoW
3 Spell Pierce
3 Daze
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Forked Bolt
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Vapor Snag//Echoing Truth
OR I would run it in Team America
20 Lands
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
1 Sylvan Library
4 FoW
4 Gush
4 Bstorm
3 Ponder
3 Thoughtseize
3 Daze
2 Ghastly Demise
1 Liliana otV
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Merchant Scroll
1 Vapor Snag//Echoing Truth
Gush would make Choke a laughably bad SB card, make it easier to nullify opposing Wastelands, possibly nullify opposing Submerges (via bouncing your own Tropicals), and give tempo decks a true, reliable form of card advantage. It would also make it easier to fight against combo decks, because you can tap out on your turn but still have the ability to draw into FoW/Daze. Actually considering all of this, it may indeed simply be too powerful in Legacy, further pushing tempo strategies as -the- solidified tier 1.
It seems like Gush could be equally unfair in combo (e.g. the aforementioned Doomsday) or more controllish decks (Land Tax + Gush anyone?). I guess it's a type of temp deck, but burn with Volcanic Islands, Steam Vents, Fetches, and Gush should work pretty well too.Quote:
Originally Posted by wcm8
Ok, I have a compromise, unban Survival and Gush.
Indeed. I actually went and compared the dominance of Misstep to Griselbrand in a few tournaments. There was only one Legacy Grand Prix in which Mental Misstep was legal (Providence 2011), but Mental Misstep was in 7 out of the 8 top decks. In the most recent Legacy Grand Prix, Griselbrand was in...0 out of the 8 top decks. Huh. Yeah, that 0% Griselbrand is as dominating and warping as the 87.5% Mental Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
As an alternative comparison, the most recent SCG Open also had 0 Griselbrands in the top 8. The SCG Open that occurred approximately one year before that one (Seattle) had 7 of the top 8 having Mental Missteps (5 had them maindecked, 2 had them sideboarded). Again, 87.5% is pretty different than 0%. Even if you extend it to the top 16 for them, it becomes 12.5% Griselbrand and 75% Mental Misstep. That's still a pretty big difference.
So...yeah. Claiming that Griselbrand's supposed "warping" is anything close to what Mental Misstep did seems almost comical in how incorrect it is.
I am probably the only one that misses Mental Misstep Legacy...:tongue:
I miss Mental Misstep.
Also I don't know why anyone would compare Mental Misstep to Griselbrand; the cards are fundamentally incomparable in terms of what you expect them to do.
Griselbrand is a cornerstone card in any deck. It does not get accidentally put in; it is a or the key win feature and an engine in its own right, more comparable to Survival of the Fittest, Life from the Loam, or Jace than anything else.
Mental Misstep is a nuts and bolts type of card; it fulfills a role and nothing more, making it more akin to Brainstorm, StP, Wasteland, Force, etc.; and these type of cards always see more play in Legacy as a category than individual engine cards, because the latter go in a narrower range of decks.
(We might note that Brainstorm has had and continues to have a performance about as good as any Misstep ever did.)
There's a difference between utility and combo cards: Flash was only in 3 of the top 8 decks at GP Columbus, IIRC, but most people would say Flash is more deserving of its ban than Mental Misstep.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Seth
It should be pointed out playing Ad Nauseam or Griselbrand as combo elements has the fundamental weakness that less-than-lethal damage matters a lot to them. That means they're much more interactive against aggro and tempo decks than the classic combo decks.
I don't know about that. Someone would obviously need to do some more calculation than I did to really determine it, but I did look at some top 8's when Mental Misstep was legal, and there were more decks with it than there have been (recently) decks with Brainstorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Obviously Brainstorm is incredibly popular, but it doesn't seem to be played as often as Mental Misstep. Though to be fair, part of that depends on how you count it, as Brainstorm is invariably a 4-of whereas decks with 2-3 Mental Missteps were not rare.
Brainstorm can't be compared to Mental Misstep because you have to splash a color to play Brainstorm.
Also, Mental Misstep + Snapcaster would be way too nutty; keep in mind the mana cost has an alternative cost so you can still pay 2 life or U.
Cards I want to see come off in the near future, in no particular order and not all at the same time:
Mind Twist - Rarely going to be better than Hymn to Tourach. The only card that might potentially break this is Dream Salvage and somehow I doubt it. By the time its better than Hymn to Tourach, your opponent in most cases will be sitting on a number of cards that would make it basically an overcosted Hymn or slightly better than Hymn.
Survival of the Fittest - This card was fun to play with and against... til Vengevine. I'd say switch the two on the banned list.
Earthcraft - It might get played but it won't wreck anything.
Black Vise - Its about time we had a solid, easily splash able hate card for blue decks. Reanimator might be a lulz inevitability turn 2 so WotC will print a splashable 1cc hate card (Cage) as well as Dredge, but blue has solidified a permanent position in the DTB. It would likely be good against slow control decks but Tempo decks can comfortably sit out of range at 4 cards.
Mind's Desire - Discussed to death, but safe. Worse than Time Spiral in High Tide combo and wouldn't even get played along side it as Meditate is better is more situations, while Ad Nauseam is a better engine for Dark Ritual combo. At most TES would get a new Wishboard toy but we'd have to consult Mr. Cook on that.
Frantic Search - This one doesn't get nearly enough attention in the B/R threads. It got unbanned in Vintage, perhaps its safe for Legacy as well. It would make Solidarity an actual deck again, which would be nice considering Spiral Tide got, well, an engine. Spiral Tide would also play it but Solidarity would probably be better as the deck wouldn't have to run Candelabra's, and run into Pithing Needles, QPM, etc. while its setting up. You can't really Snapcast Frantic Search unless you're already sitting on 5 lands, so I don't think Tempo would play this, especially since its a cantrip that gets easily Pierced/Dazed. Ponder is way better in Tempo. Frantic Search would likely be played in Reanimator, Dream Halls, SnT.
Worldgorger Dragon - Reanimator is already stupid enough but its GG if you resolve a creature like Iona, Jizzlebrand anyway. You hate it with the same cards either way and we've acquired much better post-board hate for Reanimator since Dragon was legal.
Not so sure:
Oath of Druids - May I refer people who want to protest this choice to Show and Tell which for 3 mana basically does the same thing. Would having both in the same format suck? Perhaps but an enchantment can be dealt with via QPM/GSZ before he has mana to activate it, unlike SnT. I'd like to hear thoughts on this one.