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It's a legitimate question - though it's not a perfect comparison, Maverick runs GSZ, Sylvan, equipment etc alongside Thalia (imperfect comparison because Mav has manadorks). If it's played, it'd likely kick O-Ring out, as it's more versatile, even if you can't Show it in. I think as a two-of in the board it'd be fine.
The difference lies in Port and that Mav has mana acceleration in Noble, DRS, Knight and GSZ > Dryad. But especially Port.Quote:
Originally Posted by bakofried
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
Regarding Council's Judgement, I think 1 will definitely come in for the O-Ring in the side, if you're running it. Outside the Show and Tell interaction, it's better in every way, specially in these days of Abrupt Decay and TNN. The second will be contesting the additional removal slot (Sunlance/Celestial Flare), the substitution is not as clear cut like the last one, but I'd probably do it too.
Gosh, Jumbo. I was thinking about having it in addition to a single Oblivion Ring. I can't see cutting The One Ring (huzzaah!) as long as Show and Tell is still floating about and I have Enlightened Tutor.
A few details...
-Elves is not unwinnable postboard game 2. But then you are on the draw game 3, where it just about is unwinnable. The trick is to to win game 1, which, well, ya know...
-I think I am satisfied with the quasi-solutions we have for TNN. The fact that Council's Judgement does not hit lands makes me frown. But, it does kill Progenitus, which is actually kinda pertinent against Elves.
-I personally think that going without Flickerwisp is a mistake. And all of these experimental lists cut Flickerwisp, so call me a traditionalist. But Flickerwisp is so important for the proper functioning of this deck in games where plan A does not do the trick. Considering that our Plan A is a Swiss cheese sorta plan, this happens regularly. It's great to have all of these fun ways of preventing your opponent from playing Magic, but from a perspective of Play the Power, Arbiter plus ghost Quarter is not as good as Wasteland and whatever you took out for Arbiters.
-I think a single Ghost Quarter is a very interesting idea. But you don't need the Arbiters. As with all things D+T, the key is in the execution and knowledge of your opponent's deck. Most opponents are going to fetch up their basics as soon as they know what you are playing. Any deck with three colors will only have a few of these. Know how many they have. Once they are out, use GQ to take out your favorite basic. But you can't let them see your GQ ahead of time or the jig is up.
-and, because I am displaying my socially inept side: Dearth means "not enough", the opposite of what someone posted a bit back.
So it does. What word was I thinking of, then? :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn
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I know Finn will kick me for saying this, but giving the amount of Sulfur Elemental and Dread of Nights I've been seeing, and the success I've been having with Modern Hate bears.
I've been considering dropping Flickerwisp for Leonin Arbiter. In initial testing its been very oppressive against many decks and can be downright crushing turn 2 when your opponent is dropping fetches and can't pay to search. One interaction that been awesome is playing Phyrexian Revoker naming your own Leonin Arbiter to remove the option to search as the game gets later.
It also lets you play with Vial on 2, as Flickewisp is the only creature with 3 cast without flash. (assuming 0 Brimaz and Mirran Crusader)
That's not how that works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
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Isn't paying (2) an activated ability? :eyebrow:
It's a "special action." It functions more like a triggered ability than an activated one--crucially, the lack of a colon in the card text is what defines it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
1/1/2011: Paying {2} to ignore Leonin Arbiter's effect is a special action. Any player may take this special action any time he or she has priority. It doesn't use the stack and can't be responded to.
That's a shame. I'm going to have some explaining to do with my testing partner lol.
Thanks fellas!
The point is that your opponent can at least fetch for his first land (possibly the second as well) before Arbiter comes down. I can imagine that this puts a big question mark behind the idea, if you have a lot of decks in the metagame that operate smooth on 2 lands. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
I'm sure, if you want to seriously try the Arbiter-idea, you might want to replace the ports with Ghost Quarters to full profit from the Leonin without turning your manabase into a total desaster.
What you're missing is that even if your opponent is paying mana to search, he's not casting spells. I would run 1-3 Ghost Quarters in addition to wasteland and ports.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Functionally Arbiter is acting as 2 ports every time your opponent pays to search.
It really complements the tax plan.
You gotta be careful with this direction. Are you going to have 26 lands then? You can't actually get rid of any Ports or Wastelands. And you are crazy to cut the white count below, gee 14 if you are feeling lucky. 13 if you have fewer than 3 Karakas. But then you are dipping into the efficacy of the deck in a variety of ways to support the "sometimes tech" of Arbiters.
I'm not saying it is bad. I'm saying it is probably bad. It just seems to me that cards which are independently good (Port, Flickerwisp) are a better bet than cards which are possibly back breaking, but possibly dead. If it is not a clear upgrade AND requires that we lose something somewhere else, I am dubious to it.
I get that with new tech, it feels like its pulling teeth on the tradition.
But really, i recommend throw 4 in your deck and seeing how it goes before getting too caught up in the theory crafting.
You can't always assemble a clock which is fast enough to race TNN, especially when they can jam down equipment of their own or double TNN. I'm not saying that Judgement is the ideal solution to TNN, but at the very least, it deserves testing since it looks alot better than other situational crap we have to run to fight off TNN.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
What I dislike about Arbiter, aside from clashing with the SFM plan, is the lack of a combat-relevant body. Mom isn't about attacking and we already have Revoker who can't go into the red zone profitably. Everything else brings evasion or other combat-relevant stats. Spirit of the Labyrinth suffers from the same problem. That's something that already came up multiple time for me when testing the BoM list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
From the people running an Arbiter/Mindcensor/Ghost Quarter build, I'd really like to hear about your thoughts of running ~ 2 CoW somewhere in the 75. 4 Wasteland/4 Ghost Quarter/2 Horizon Canopy sounds like an interesting option to go along with it.
I've played mono w hatebears in vintage with some success (few top8s here and there and a few top4s) and that is a deck that heavily relies on arbiter as a strong hate bear. That's about all of my experience with arbiter, and while it's a different format I can see parallels might apply to legacy. But again take what I say with a grain of salt because I haven't done extensive testing in legacy with it.
It's undoubtable that when you have Leonin Arbiter and Spirit of the Labyrinth together, paired with ghost quarters and wastes. There's very little any deck can do about it. In general a blue deck gets around the land destruction and taxation by drawing out of it. Spirit shuts this down and it's awesome. It definitely gives you a powerful feeling when it's working. In general, I'm unsure if you can get to that point consistently in Legacy. In vintage, just an arbiter is strong by itself because so many of the blue decks rely on tutoring, Merchant Scroll, Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Mystical Tutor, etc. In Legacy I think that the main value you get out of arbiter is shutting down stoneforge mystics, and fetch lands. There's a lot less inherent value off of that.
Plus Spirit of the Labyrinth is pretty meh in legacy by itself, as others who have tested it extensively I'm sure will tell you.
In Vintage, ghost quarter by itself isn't terrible. Even without an arbiter, it can often be a strip mine because people are greedy. It also has interesting applications with cards like Mystical tutor and Vampiric Tutor, because giving them the shuffle can mess with their tutor effect. In Legacy, while mana bases can be super greedy, you're never getting that benefit of messing with tutors. In fact, giving them a free shuffle effect can be awful if they have a brainstorm. I can only imagine how shitty it must be to have someone brainstorm in response to your ghost quarter. Ghost Quarter is just considerably weaker in Legacy than it is in Vintage, and it's not even that strong in Vintage to begin with.
I think going this route could work for people who aren't quite prepared for it, or have never seen it before. Still I think in general more traditional Death N Taxes decks have more raw power to them.
It's funny that you mention TNN as a problem and the fact that some lists have trouble pushing into the red zone, but don't see that both issues can simply be adressed by running more evasive beaters. There is a point in the game at which 2/1's without evasion can't push through a Tarmogoyf, SFM or TNN and I feel that only having the natural draw phase and SFM + StoP as solutions (Flickerwisp for a single round too) is not enough without Library manipulation and the whole aggro aspect quickly going down the drain at times if you are required to find, hardcast and equip a Sword of X & Y to push one of your creatures to actual battle-stats, dragging out the game and making your own gameplan worse in the process because you can not close out gamesQuote:
Originally Posted by Barook
I already run 4 Flickerwisp (evasive + great utility) and 3 Serra Avengers alongside 3 Mirran Crusaders. I dislike a 4th Avenger since it increases the chance of clogging up your hand without Vial. Aven Mindcensor is by far the weakest option you can run and thus, is a no-go as well. Crusader is great in the current, BUG-infested metagame and imho a better choice than Brimaz. Crusader is also evasive against enemy Goyfs and Batterskull.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Just because you can run more flyers doesn't mean you should, especially when they're slow and weak to -1/-1 effects like Mindcensor.
This is a list that has been making the rounds on MTGO as mentioned here: http://www.channelfireball.com/home/...game-analysis/
Death and Taxes
Wenzel Krautmann
Lands
9 x Plains
4 x Rishadan Port
4 x Ghost Quarter
1 x Horizon Canopy
1 x Flagstones of Trokair
4 x Wasteland
3 x Karakas
Creatures
4 x Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 x Phyrexian Revoker
4 x Leonin Arbiter
2 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Aven Mindcensor
3 x Mother of Runes
2 x Mangara of Corondor
Noncreature Spells
1 x Umezawa's Jitte
1 x Sword of Fire and Ice
4 x AEther Vial
3 x Swords to Plowshares
Sideboard
2 x Rest in Peace
1 x Grafdigger's Cage
1 x Batterskull
2 x Mirran Crusader
2 x Stoneforge Mystic
2 x Ethersworn Canonist
1 x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1 x Oblivion Ring
1 x Veteran Armorer
1 x Mother of Runes
1 x Swords to Plowshares
Discussions, Thoughts?