Emrakul, with several Cloudposts in play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
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Emrakul, with several Cloudposts in play?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I'm really disliking all these RiP's that I'm seeing in the Dig/Snapcaster Miracles lists. You rely on Dig/Snap pretty heavily against most of the Deathrite/Goyf decks, so boarding in the RiPs becomes much worse. I also think Relic is a better card against RUG Delver a lot of the time. Just throwing that out there...
I agree. But the theory is: u board in RIP against rug as the only delver deck. it deals with goose, goyf and they dont have good answers for it. Besides that you use it against pure graveyard decks where it is almost a winoption: dredge, reanimator, lands...
Of course you could overload the decays of bug, but that would force u pretty much to board out digs and snapcasters, nobody does that i believe.
My list is running 2 snap 1 DTT and I'm fine with that while having 2 rip sb
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I've been screwing around with a miracles list w/ myth realized and he seems like a pretty good addition to the deck. You don't really ever turn him into a creature until you establish a cb lock, but once that happens, he blocks goyf, mongoose, bskull, etc like a champ. He also gives the deck the ability to just win in 2-3 turns w/o having to dig super hard to find the entreat. Here's a list I've been testing:
Creatures (2)
2 Snapcaster Mage
Spells (36)
3 Myth Realized
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Dig Through Time
1 Council's Judgment
3 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
Lands (22)
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
1 Karakas
I find the only BUG deck you really want to keep counterbalance in against (and thus probably bring in RIP against to help overload) is Shardless, as it's really the only way we can keep up with their card advantage.
Counterbalance against Shardless isn't good imo, their curve is wonkier (with more 2s, 3s, 4s and 8s), and Shardless Agents to randomly cascade into an abrupt decay
BUG delver I feel it's fine as their curve is more streamlined (with ponder and delvers) making it easier to choke them on resources if/when they start top decking.
Is card advantage the thing we should care about vs Shardless? I mean, I don't think card advantage is the thing we should be focusing on this matchup because our gameplan is basically to deal with their problematic cards and control their board, until we find entreat. Card advantage is not really necessary to execute that gameplan, but honestly, I could be looking at this from an entirely different perspective.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
Yes definitely. Taking care of problematic permanents is very important but being able to counter visions and whatever else they shardless up is important as well. We can't plan to win a game where they keep 2-for1-ing us.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
Yes, that's what Miracles is all about. That's the reason Miracles players hate Silvan Library and Dark Confidant so much. Shardless has already presented enough problems from multiple angles of attack, CB is the best way to hinder their plans. Say they golgair charm/abrupt decay, that only means your rip/blood moon has better chance of resolving. Even with CB being there most of the match, you will still have to deal with tarpit and Dudes, as well as planeswalkers hiding behind strix.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
BUG Delver on the other hand, is much more linear, that's where blanking AD target would actually work.
I agree with you. The deck does backflips just to end up with 2 creatures on board that get eaten by Terminus. Them getting ahead with visions and the like means that they do it again the next turn. I think Counterbalance isn't even very good against that deck on account of their lack of reliance on 1's, let alone the Decays. I personally board in 2 Verdicts, since the chokepoint of their strategy is the number of threats they can pull from their deck. A lot of them will even board in Meddling Mages against you and name Terminus, just to try to kill you off tempo.Quote:
Originally Posted by goblinsplayer
Not only will the deck lose as soon as you find Entreat, keeping their board clear allows Jace to be relevant. Not letting them get any positional advantage on you seems the most important thing. At least, that's how I play the matchup.
Does anyone know where I can find Joe Lossett's current list?
The list I saw him play a few days agoQuote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
Miracles Lossett
75 cards, 15 sideboard
5 Island
4 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
2 Karakas
2 Plains
1 Arid Mesa
2 Tundra
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
22 lands
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
3 Vendilion Clique
6 creatures
1 Spell Snare
2 Pyroblast
1 Counterspell
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Terminus
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dig Through Time
1 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
32 other spells
Sideboard
2 Monastery Mentor
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Izzet Staticaster
1 Arid Mesa
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Wear // Tear
2 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
15 sideboard cards
Thanks!Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombo175
I'm also on the no Counterbalance side of things. The only thing we really need to worry about against Shardless is the A.V, and the occassional planeswalker. their clock is not particular quick, and gives us plenty of time to find entreat. They are also rather light on Counterspells, usually only 4xFOW, so it's very easy to push an entreat or Jace through.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
to be honest, i think even RIP is better than Counterbalance against BUG. The key to the game IMO, is actually top and red blasts.
There's no such thing as "the only thing" when it comes to Shardless. The deck is known to attack from multiple angles.Quote:
Originally Posted by KZhang
1. Raw Card advantage (Hymn, Vision, Cascade)
2. Planeswalkers (jace, lili)
3. Man-land (tarpit)
4. Creature beats
5. DRS, which attack your graveyards, direct life loss, pretty much mini-planeswalker
6. SB hate such as, null rod and silvan library.
Assume you run any numbers of snapcasters and dig, do you really want to play RiP to ruin your chance of utilizing those cards? Because of all the thoughtseize/hymn/lili, it's very possible your disenchant/wear tear/Entreat/Red blast got discarded early, and those cards might be the answers you need. I have once misdirected a hymn such that Shardless player has no hand, but it climbed back with blind Shardless into Vision. It pretty much comes down to making good trades, the ones you really care about is the blue stuff, which can be blasted, and lili ultimate. Everything else your White (and EE) cards can take care of, or you can just take the hit.
I have been testing this deck a lot lately, and I was very frustrated by the RiP anti-synergy against decks like Shardless where our Snapcaster/Dig package is the most important thing in the deck next to Entreat. Because of this, I cut the RiPs for Relics which are better against RUG Delver and allow you to maintain more control over your GY hate when you may want to be Digging in the midgame. Edit: note that I am obviously not boarding in Relics against Shardless.
Shardless is by far the most difficult matchup for Miracles imo, and Miracles would clearly be the best deck in the format if it wasn't for this atrocious matchup that has gained a lot of popularity since the banning of Treasure Cruise. I'm not saying Miracles isn't the best deck, but Shardless is Miracles' Achilles heel. I don't think it's a good idea to keep in Counterbalance and would prefer to blank their Decays. Counterbalance isn't even that good when they have a lot of Planeswalkers and a UB manland that get through it easily. I'd rather have red blasts which are all-around better at dealing with their Visions, Digs, Jaces, and Tar pits. Also I see a lot of people suggesting that Jace is good in this matchup. While there are certainly situations where Jace is a great play, overall the Shardless deck puts a ton of little value creatures onto the board that deal with Jace pretty easily. Because of this, I think Dig is much better and more important against Shardless, and I'm not going to play an enchantment that shuts off my own Digs.
See, I don't run any Digs, so I have no problem with RIP. Just 2 Snapcasters, and since they will inevitably kill the RIP they're never dead. You can't actually blank Decay, unless you also cut Vendilion Clique, and even then they would get some value off your Snapcasters. I just want to make sure I 2 for 1 them when they cast Decay, and RIP does that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Patrunkenphat7
I also only board in 2 out of 4 Red Blasts. I suppose I'm alone in this, but I'm more scared of getting Wastelanded and/or drawing it dead than I am of Visions resolving. The card only trades well with Ancestral Visions and Force of Will; anywhere else I'm not sure I even want to fetch a Volcanic. I have a mountain that I bring in, which is why I only run 2 copies. I think we're better suited attacking their creature base, not their engine. Mostly when they get me with planeswalkers I got Hymn'd on turn 2, so it's not as if Blasts are going to stop that. I don't feel like they win the fight over Visions unless you get hit by Hymns and Thoughseizes, first.
I also like RIP as a card that leaves your hand quickly. I prefer to just play of Top in that matchup.
I play a single Relic as graveyard hate these days, which is definitely a not to 7 Graveyard dependant cards. Against Shardless, I have 9 raw card advantage engines (all main deck), with the extra Keranos coming in from the board as a pseudo Jace. If you get it through a Force, you should be winning the game very quickly. (Well, slowly, but they can't stop you.) We have a superior suite of countermagic and general interaction in game two, as we have triple Counterspell. I usually look at:
-4 Balance
-3 Force
+2 REB
+1 Counterspell
+3 Clique
+1 Keranos
Other things can be looked into as you see fit (Council's Judgment, extra REB). I used to have Blood Moon, which was a real beating, but I figured I'd try to play it fair. With only a single Entreat as a way of closing out super fast, the game is generally much harder, but you should draw more actual action, and most of the BG decks I play against have multiple Deeds, so it was often very hard to get Angels through, anyway.
there's a difference between "the key thing" and "the only thing".Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
and yes, like we both mentioned, most of their threats they have can be blasted away, which makes blasts a "key card to have" against Shardless.
Rest in peace is good because it resets DRS & Gofy, and given that it is the only thing worthy of being abrupt decayed, your RIP is not going to stay in play long. Which brings your SCM back online. even as a Ambush viper, SCM is useful against an active lili, which is why it stays in.
Hey Cipher, I'm curious to know what's your reasoning on why you choose to play no dig through times when so many other players choose to play it in multiples. Also I'm curious to see what your list looks like if you don't mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cipher
I prefer to focus on a deck's specific strength when deckbuilding. With Miracles you control the top of your deck, which is a gamezone just like the hand, graveyard, and battlefield. Your card advantage and engine pieces hinge off "combos" from Terminus, Entreat, and Counterbalance being broken by the manipulation provided by Top, Brainstorm, and Jace. As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the deck needs to just be cheap disruption. I tried Ponder a long time ago, but found that it wasn't remotely close to Top or Brainstorm. These days all anyone plays is midrange that get wrecked by Terminus, so tapping-out is statistically OK, but I'm not a Legacy grinder or anything so I'd rather make my list more all-around competent. You also can casually take all day spinning Top and Ponder and ignoring the other guy when they're running these creature decks, so the mana intensity isn't as much a problem as it is when a fight can happen any turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by ThanhHa
I then tried other cards like Predict and Impulse. Both these cards were poor filler since they ignored the basic premise of the deck; they cleared the top of your deck when you were trying to stack it. What are you going to impulse into Terminus? Maybe Telling Time would have been a better "instant-speed Ponder". Dig through Time is the same deal, but it's so powerful that people just jam it anyway. It's the equivalent of throwing Jace in the Sneak and Show decks like the SCG guys were doing last year.
In the end I just went with 2 Snapcasters to flashback Brainstorm midgame, or Swords, REB, etc:
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Counterbalance
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
6 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
Sideboard:
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Flusterstorm
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Council's Judgment
2 Rest in Peace
1 Volcanic Island
1 Mountain
I'm basically running a "stock" list from a few years back, +1 Jace, -Oblivion Ring or something like that. I run 4 Jace because it's the most powerful enabler in the deck even turning on "dead" miracles in your hand. I hardly mind drawing 2 in my opening hand, except against combo. If combo was huge, I could see replacing it with the sideboard Clique.
I also cut my Disenchant for Venser in the sideboard. I've never been a fan of silver bullets, especially when they only snipe your opponent's silver bullets. I'm not a statistical guru, but the collision of probabilities doesn't seem high to me. And who even cares about a deck that's running Stoneforge? Venser is a beast in the mirror and most combo matchups. He's ironically great against Stoneforge, as well.
Also, I just recently decided to cut 2 more silver bullet cards (Staticaster and something else) for the two red sources in the sideboard. This gives me only 4 non-basics game 1, and I honestly think Wasteland loses me more games against midrange than anything else. The deck is too mana intensive, especially with Top in play. If I feel like I need anymore sideboard slots I'll probably move them back main, but my sideboarding for all the popular matchups wasn't affected.
I was scrolling through this past weekend's scg premier iq and noticed that jeskai stoneblade won the tournament. However, when I looked at the list, I noticed it seemed like more of a hybrid list...part stoneblade, and part miracles. It's running terminus and top, but more of a stoneforge package. To be honest, besides no counterbalance this is miraclesish. By no means am I one of those guys who posts the wrong deck in the wrong forum. I just felt this deck was worth discussing, and if just wanted to read some constructive thoughts about it. Having been a part of this thread for a few months, I know it can get tense lol.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/220732
"It has SDT, it has Terminus, it must be Miracles, or has something to do with Miracles," is that your reaction? When you ask people's impression of Miracles in the context of Legacy, most people would agree that it's the closest adaptation of what a permission control deck does. For people to come to that impression, we most likely attribute to the counter-top package. This SFM deck, classified by SCG, does not have such package. I would go even further, it's a typical SFM deck with usual suspect like Bolts, except it avoided Dig in favor of SDT manipulation. Not only that, it attempted to use Terminus as a fail-safe, instead of StP. Yes, it's a Blade control deck, but that kind of control isn't close to what Miracle control tries to accomplish. In conclusion, Miracle Blade (BBD's toy pre-TC 2014) and Miracle control belong to this thread, but Blade control like the one you listed doesn't, imo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombo175
Ya, that is my deck list. I sort of feel it is a hybrid. I used to use swords to plowshares, but I upgraded to terminus because it handles worse board states better. I do miss snapcaster synergies with swords to plowshares since I removed them from the 75, but terminus is swords-the-whole-boards and generally more useful. If you want to learn more about the style of deck I use kind of deviated from the dtb blade control forum because the lack of support of red splash. This is a link to my thread:Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombo175
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...U-W-R-control)
You are right this deck is definitely a stoneblade deck but the 5 slots for the SFM package (3 SFM, 1 S.O.F.I.,1 batterskull) is the same amount of space for 3 counterbalance, the 4th SDT, and an entreat the angels. That being said were are really talking about a minimum of 5 cards to be politically correct and "acceptable" (8.3% difference). I did like miracles adaptation of board wipe with terminus, and use it similarly with my American blade aka "jeskai stoneblade" (per SCG). I just run one less SDT then miracle lists (hard to find room with all the diverse threats my deck presents). Sidenote: when you search for my decklist on google and find mtgdecks.net they appear to have it labled "jeskai stoneblade" but filed in under the deck type countertop (seen in green from google as "www.mtgdecks.net Legacy CounterTop") What is nice about my deck and its relationship appearing as miracles is it leads to poorer side boarding strategies among my opponents who aren't familiar with my list. It is very common this misdiagnose my deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Hi lost_ronin, you'r right, is very common to misdiagnose the deck because he are very similar to Miracle control (SDT).
I don't like a W deck without Plowshares but he work very good.
The "hybrid" deck are a good strategy in a meta set to fight vs Miracle control "classic".
In this time I try the Blad control and I like this archetype.
Anyway, this is not the right thread for this (very good) deck.
Hodor. Hodor!
So I don't really feel like reading through 350+pages to see if this has been brought up so I'll just ask. What is the best way to approach the mirror? At the store I play we sometimes have legacy and there's already 2 players on miracles out of around 8-12 players. I plan on playing the ponder snapcaster version.
Hello,
in my opinion to aproach the mirror you should acept that pre board your deck is colour coded. You donīt want the white spells (except Entreat) and you need the blue ones. So most of the time the winner will be who draws more usefull stuff and avoids the dead cards like STP and Terminus.
After the boarding you shoudl just fight over the win and lock peices of the deck. So this woiuld be Jace, Top, CB and Entreat. A established Cb top lock is not the game over
because you can blast Cb out of the water with Explosives or just put a Jace into play which can win you the game trhough the lock. Also entreat can win because Cb is unable to counter this.
Important to know is that you donīt want to let the opponent resolve his top early because it brings so much consistency that this will cost you the game in the mirror most of the time.
In the end what wins you the game is consitency and expirience so to win the mirror you should pratice it regularly to get a fell for the situations and the possibilites for the possible answers you oppent could have.
Do I keep entreat in? Isn't that bad against opposing explosives, or do I just not care about that?
Hello,
actually both ios valid. Some argue that the entreat is bad because the opponent can play EE for 0. I for my part say that the opponent most likely has 2 EE in his deck, which actually also used to handle CB.
Entreat doges the Cb lock and is a must counter if you donīt have 1 of you 2 Explosives. With 3 DDT and 3 Entreat it is more likely that I find more Entreats than you have
answers for.
Yes my list plays 3 DDT so it is not the standard approach but even than you have 2 to 3 Entreats and they are addtional win Cons which can be casted while beeing in a CB lock and if you manged to prepare it right win you the game on the spot if not answered.
So yes I do not board them out because they are addtional and resilent threads in this matchup.
Thanks for the compliment :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Hrothgar
hilariousQuote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
And @ erik, I agree with Teveshszat over counterbalance, Jace, and entreat the angels (probably SDT as well but I don't think it is worth force of will). It is important to keep them from resolving. What helps is spell pierce for early game (Probably best at 2) , Flusterstorm (wins the counter fight, can help work around a resolved counterbalance, and can hit entreat the angles), Vendilion clique (can be used to distrupt the miracle trigger, is hard for jace to fight, and you can tap out during the safer end steps of your opponent), and Red elemental blast/Pyroblast (handles all non-entreat threats aswell and works well with snapcaster). I don't like Snapcaster targeting ponder in this match up unless you absolutely have to, because its sorcery speed and leaves you decently tapped out (two blue sources) to fight off what ever threat your opponent decides to try to slam on his turn (like jace, counterbalance, entreat, or dig through time)Quote:
Originally Posted by Erik9798
Thanks for the fast replies. I'll try leaving entreat in if I happen to face the mirror tonight (very likely) and see how I like it. What's your opinion on reb vs Pierce in the main?
First time playing the deck tonight. Went 2-2. Beat omni-tell and enchantress, lost to tezzeret in a game I played terribly, and got crushed by death and taxes. Didn't end up playing reb or Pierce main, and didn't face either of the other two miracles decks (only 8 players). I will definitely need to get in some more games before I bring this to a real tourney... So many little things to be aware of while playing this deck.
One quick question: i saw people running monastery mentors in sideboard of miracles, vs. which matchup it is supposed to sideboard it in? does anybody has some experience on that?, i'm having a hard time figuring this out
nowadays meta is done by:
TES
ANT
MIRACLE
OMNITELL
REANINATOR
Death and Taxes
what else?
Uhm, Delver?Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
And various flavors of BUG?
right! the much hated BUG...
A 5 second glance at the DTB section might also reveal the presence of some little green men (i.e. Elves) in the metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
our deck play Ethersworn Canonist, Confinement Priest and Counterbalance..
I'm only afraid of Taxes effect and discard..