[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

Funny enough, I had close to that hand the 3 times I missed it. Maybe it is just variance.

I Had Mire, therapy, Rite, Rite, LED, Wish, Probe x2 and I missed it for the tX BW, tx+1 2Black producing lands.

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its not surprising tbh as we already cornered this case as one of the few which make Badlands look decent, but depending on Draw/Play/OpponentsDeck and the shown/drawn card(s) to your first Probe, there is no guarentee that you even need the Badlands as every Mox/Petal/Land drawn or looking into a FoW-less hand, basically removes any need for Badlands immediately.

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in extreme cases, you may even want to 'fetchland, go" for a turn, just to hope that your next drawstep + 2 Probes wield your second IMS to cast the Therapy + Wish into 14+ Goblins.

how did you play that hand?

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

its not surprising tbh as we already cornered this case as one of the few which make Badlands look decent, but depending on Draw/Play/OpponentsDeck and the shown/drawn card(s) to your first Probe, there is no guarentee that you even need the Badlands as every Mox/Petal/Land drawn or looking into a FoW-less hand, basically removes any need for Badlands immediately.

edit:
in extreme cases, you may even want to 'fetchland, go" for a turn, just to hope that your next drawstep + 2 Probes wield your second IMS to cast the Therapy + Wish into 14+ Goblins.

how did you play that hand?

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I probed and found a Dark ritual. t2 peeled a petal from the top. I think I tried to go for a Ritual->Therapy->Petal->2xRite->LED>BW->Petition->AdN with 2 mana floating(RB) to try and win without tokens(just because I need constraints). IIRC I flipped ~6 can trips + empty + 2 tutor + discard, stopped at 4 life without fleeping a mana source.
Should I went for another line?
Really not sure if I should Probe on t1, if I do, it might be profitable to therapy on t1 of a swamp/sea, depending on the hand that I see .

The only reason I could see to justify Badlands is a basic Island, otherwise it's not needed.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

The only reason I could see to justify Badlands is a basic Island, otherwise it's not needed.

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Do you mean shaving a volc for a island and up the land count with the badlands? I only see that change with the shave of a mox and I am a fan of the moxen.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

Do you mean shaving a volc for a island and up the land count with the badlands? I only see that change with the shave of a mox and I am a fan of the moxen.

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I mean that Badlands is only acceptable when playing a basic Island, I'm not proving advise on running a suboptimal configuration. I wouldn't change the mana base at all personally.

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

I probed and found a Dark ritual. t2 peeled a petal from the top. I think I tried to go for a Ritual->Therapy->Petal->2xRite->LED>BW->Petition->AdN with 2 mana floating(RB) to try and win without tokens(just because I need constraints). IIRC I flipped ~6 can trips + empty + 2 tutor + discard, stopped at 4 life without fleeping a mana source.
Should I went for another line?
Really not sure if I should Probe on t1, if I do, it might be profitable to therapy on t1 of a swamp/sea, depending on the hand that I see .

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Probe (1), Dark Ritual (2) for [BBB], Petal for [BBBR] (3), RoF (4) [BBBRR], RoF (5) [BBBRRRR], LED (6), Wish (7) break LED for [BBBBBBRR] left, Petition for Wish (8), Wish for ToA [BBBR] (9), ToA (10) was a possible playline. Just to mention it.

Even BW->DP->mainboard EtW->flashback Therapy should have won, no? You took the risky Path with a LED, 2 Rites, a Ritual and a Petal already burned which matters for the odds.

Essentially you found the second IMS as discussed and ergo the Badlands was pointless.

TL:DR
The deck was able to kill turn 2 if your opponent has no defense and you can drop 14+ Goblins if he has (therapy). You can even beat FoW + sweeper! Ask for more?

I run a badlands. I like it sometimes; other times, I don't like it.

But I only run it because I haven't picked up a second volcanic island yet. It IS sub-optimal, but it really isn't that big of a deal. BUT, if I owned to volcanic islands, I would cut it.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Probe (1), Dark Ritual (2) for [BBB], Petal for [BBBR] (3), RoF (4) [BBBRR], RoF (5) [BBBRRRR], LED (6), Wish (7) break LED for [BBBBBBRR] left, Petition for Wish (8), Wish for ToA [BBBR] (9), ToA (10) was a possible playline. Just to mention it.

Even BW->DP->mainboard EtW->flashback Therapy should have won, no? You took the risky Path with a LED, 2 Rites, a Ritual and a Petal already burned which matters for the odds.

Essentially you found the second IMS as discussed and ergo the Badlands was pointless.

TL:DR
The deck was able to kill turn 2 if your opponent has no defense and you can drop 14+ Goblins if he has (therapy). You can even beat FoW + sweeper! Ask for more?

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The first line was not possible since I burned Probe in t1. My error starts there I think. I have the bad habbit of burning my probes and discard very early.
I always seem to forget that I can go for EtW and then flashback. I look to therapy as an Ant player :X

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

The first line was not possible since I burned Probe in t1. My error starts there I think. I have the bad habbit of burning my probes and discard very early.
I always seem to forget that I can go for EtW and then flashback. I look to therapy as an Ant player :X

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It did, as the basic requirement for this hand to do anything mentionable is finding a second IMS. As lands don't help T1 if you draw them via Probes (leaving Petals and Moxen as only outs for a turn 1 combo) and fetching a Swamp/U.sea (even more reducing the number of Lands you can draw into) for some Probe + Therapy shenanigans doesn't cover your opponent drawing/cantrip into counter, going for the conservative "Fetchland, go" would have fared better and in this case even won the game turn 2.

I really hate it to see people burning Probe early in Storm as they make natural storm kills so damn easy to execute. Unless you play against Hatebears/Counterbalance/combo: Sit on Probes and discard as long as reasonable

I aggressively use my Probes, I am of a different play style than Peter.

I'd rather make proper decisions based on what my opponent is playing than potentially sit back and get burned. Not to mention that Probe could occasionally draw into the missing piece.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I aggressively use my Probes, I am of a different play style than Peter.

I'd rather make proper decisions based on what my opponent is playing than potentially sit back and get burned. Not to mention that Probe could occasionally draw into the missing piece.

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But in that specific case, would you have played the Cabal Therapy?

I see a lot of ''early discard to save mana on combo turn'' vs ''grinding a bit more but make it safer discard''.

If you have a vacuum answer, I'll take it, but if not let's just talk according to the current discussion.

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Originally Posted by LDX

But in that specific case, would you have played the Cabal Therapy?

I see a lot of ''early discard to save mana on combo turn'' vs ''grinding a bit more but make it safer discard''.

If you have a vacuum answer, I'll take it, but if not let's just talk according to the current discussion.

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mind that he held two Probes in his hand so he the option to Probe once and still kill his opponent turn two with the playline I mentioned earlier. For me it boils down to saving the Probes and holding on the fetch (aka not casting Therapy), mainly because his business spell is Wish and he likely goes for EtW here (while also having one more possible land to draw into for his drawstep and Probes). Its a bit different if the business spell was Infernal as you would care a lot less for stormcount

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Originally Posted by LDX

But in that specific case, would you have played the Cabal Therapy?

I see a lot of ''early discard to save mana on combo turn'' vs ''grinding a bit more but make it safer discard''.

If you have a vacuum answer, I'll take it, but if not let's just talk according to the current discussion.

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I'd say that I "just fire off" my Probes 75-80% of the time. However, there are circumstances where that's not appropriate. My comment was directed at Peter's telling people that they should hold them more often, which is something I'm not sure if I agree with.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

mind that he held two Probes in his hand so he the option to Probe once and still kill his opponent turn two with the playline I mentioned earlier. For me it boils down to saving the Probes and holding on the fetch (aka not casting Therapy), mainly because his business spell is Wish and he likely goes for EtW here (while also having one more possible land to draw into for his drawstep and Probes). Its a bit different if the business spell was Infernal as you would care a lot less for stormcount

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Yeah, I became closer to you in that kind of thought, which is why I asked Bryant, as we know he has a different playstyle than yours.

I guess I'll make my own opinion on the styles, but so far it's been really heart breaking. Every time I see Bryant play on camera, all his moves seem natural and I'm like, whoo, I could have done that on my own, and what I couldn't have done / his more complex plays just seem to be ''my next levels'', if I may, like to see the features you should unlock with enough experience, literally (and as a metaphor too, I would guess). Mind you, I'm nowhere close to that level yet.

But your words are always shining bright of intelligence, and more importantly, they're limpid and clear: every single small thing you care to explain totally make sense right away. How you explain what motivates your thought process is candy for the mind, and I haven't seen so much clarity since some college professors I had. I tend to be let my brain lead me on a daily basis, why is which I'm leaning toward you.

Not that what Bryant does isn't motivated by thoughts or isn't rational, but that that process is still unknown to me. It's so natural and I couldn't know how to explain it, which is why I ask the questions.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

I'd say that I "just fire off" my Probes 75-80% of the time. However, there are circumstances where that's not appropriate. My comment was directed at Peter's telling people that they should hold them more often, which is something I'm not sure if I agree with.

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Yes, that I got it, but what about the discard? Most of the times, Probes won't take mana away. I wonder where you situate yourself in the ''speed at all cost/fear of top deck'' spectrum.

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Originally Posted by LDX

Not that what Bryant does isn't motivated by thoughts or isn't rational, but that that process is still unknown to me. It's so natural and I couldn't know how to explain it, which is why I ask the questions.
Yes, that I got it, but what about the discard? Most of the times, Probes won't take mana away. I wonder where you situate yourself in the ''speed at all cost/fear of top deck'' spectrum.

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Peter and I also have very different roles when it comes to posting publicly. I rarely will help out the new/novice user, I'm much more interested in the decks next steps and configurations on the proper numbers.

I play discard differently based on the match-up, sometimes it's best to jam it to hit their Top on turn one. Sometimes you hold it to make their Brainstorms awkward.

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

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This might be the best thing created for storm since infernal tutor

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

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This. Is. Awesome.

What's the purpose of it? Will you review our choices? Is it as a database to check the ''regular TES player'' against your own choices?

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Originally Posted by LDX

This. Is. Awesome.

What's the purpose of it? Will you review our choices? Is it as a database to check the ''regular TES player'' against your own choices?

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The purpose is to get an idea of what opening hands look like for newer players, for more experienced players it's to get a better idea on how you perceive hands.
You can also submit hands which I will receive & sometimes comment back on if you should keep/mull and how to play them.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Hand Generator is live: http://www.theepicstorm.com/#handgenerator

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Suggestion for a small change to the tool:
Maybe you can have it auto-enter your name and e-mail address again when you get a new hand after submitting the first?
Now I have to enter my contact info again for each hand, if I want to submit it, and that's a tad annoying. :wink:

Other than that, excellent tool! :smile:

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Originally Posted by d0nkey

This might be the best thing created for storm since infernal tutor

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Don, have you submitted a hand of Ritual, Duress, Brainstorm, Delta, Delta, Ponder, Duress?

People sending me rude messages through a card form, real nice. I hope you get that penis enlargement you were attempting to achieve.

Cool tool. I submitted a no-land hand that I still think is an easy keep but curious on your thoughts.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

People sending me rude messages through a card form, real nice. I hope you get that penis enlargement you were attempting to achieve.

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People do that on the internet?

Thanks again for the tool though, it's quite awesome. It's a nice break from editing primers on mobile :V

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Don, have you submitted a hand of Ritual, Duress, Brainstorm, Delta, Delta, Ponder, Duress?

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No but I mulligan'd until I got ritual, ritual, ad nauseum just for fun.

Bryant shared a very disturbing Submission with me this morning. I really wonder what's wrong with some peeps

Some people are just full of S*#×~§

That's pretty shitty of people; is there a way to ban certain emails/IP addresses as a result?

It's not that I'm upset, just kind of disappointed in members of the community.

When people submit, I do receive their IPs along with various other information like their longitude/latitude and most likely location (Seattle for example). It's not exactly a secret to whom some of these individuals are.

In other news, who else here will be storming this weekend at the invitational?

I love the Tool Bryant despite not being an actual storm player myself (DDFT for me :) ).
I hope that the number of people 'abusing' the tool is very much overshadowed by those using it for its intended purpose.
Thank you for coming up with it!

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

It's not that I'm upset, just kind of disappointed in members of the community.

When people submit, I do receive their IPs along with various other information like their longitude/latitude and most likely location (Seattle for example). It's not exactly a secret to whom some of these individuals are.

In other news, who else here will be storming this weekend at the invitational?

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I won't be at the invi, but I will be storming at the GP Seattle in November.

How are people feeling about Pyroclasm versus Massacre? I'm not sure which one I want to play at the 5k tomorrow.

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Originally Posted by SeoHyun

How are people feeling about Pyroclasm versus Massacre? I'm not sure which one I want to play at the 5k tomorrow.

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I think it is pretty reasonable to expect more of that 4c loam which plays maindeck Teeg, so I would lean towards pyroclasm.

Mailbox is up: http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-3/

Robust, up-to-date metagame statistics are hard to come by, but by my count something like 47% of the field plays Wasteland. Among decks that finish near the top of big tournaments, that number is more like 53%. At what point, if any, would it make sense to start pre-boarding against Wasteland with +1 Bayou, -1 Ponder? (I'd submit this to the mailbox, but I'm interested in hearing other opinions in addition to Bryant's. )

I don't think Wasteland is that big of a deal as long as you sit on Fetchlands, right now Grixis with Cabal Therapy is a greater threat and I think that means more Chrome Mox for speed.

I could be wrong, but 47% seems low in comparison to the past. I haven't actually seen Wastelands often recently. If the Wastelands are coming from Lands or Death & Taxes those are favorable match-ups anyway.

Xantid Swarm just isn't very good in this metagame:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/xantid-s...-the-metagame/

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Xantid Swarm just isn't very good in this metagame:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/xantid-s...-the-metagame/

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...and the new mulligan rule is even worse. Why? Read on!

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

Xantid Swarm just isn't very good in this metagame:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/xantid-s...-the-metagame/

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I honestly agree with all of your points, but I think you are missing one. Against Miracles I believe they are most likely leaving in terminus instead of swords since terminus can handle goblins. So if our plan against miracles really is to board out ponders, mulligan aggressively and try to make goblins by T2 I would say swarm has value in that matchup. Now obviously even if one agrees with my point it still could be moot if someone decides that a) they don't need more slots against miracles or b) they don't think it is a large enough percent of the metagame.

A well timed article as I have been straining my brain on ways to get away from green, at this point I don't think it is possible to neglect it entirely, but I will keep brainstorming. :cool: