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Wow thanks! That was very clear explanation!.Quote:
Originally Posted by exallium
So what do you think about bringing in SE against Miracles? It seems good with Hymn and I truly belive that if you can rip off their StP they are in serious trouble as you have Golgari Charm for Supreme Veredict and you can save your FoW to Terminus/Entreat.
Boarding Surgical Extraction against Controldecks has been a long discussed topic, for both, BUG and RUG. Yes, you can construct scenarios where Extraction will rip apart the UW Players plan, leaving him with nothing and you with everything. But built scenarios like this are not the rule. Look at it this way:
Would you bring in a card, that does neither protect your creatures nor applies pressure?
Would you bring in a card that are fantastic one out of 10 times? And suck most of the time?
Would you bring in another card that is dead to a Rest in Peace?
Would you bring in another card that can be outplayed by Snapcaster Mage? (Yet I am aware you should be playing it in response to Snapcaster - but what if you want to protect your creature you plan to cast and pre-emptively SE the removal? - well then youre fucked)
Would you bring in a card that isn't good most of the time, and even if it is, only hits one removal out of many? Miracles can have: Swords to Plowshares, Terminus, Supreme Verdict, Engineered Explosives, Red Elemental Blast, Path to Exile and/or Prophrory Nodes?
Short answer to all this questions: NO.
You want cards that either apply pressure, disrupt your opponent or protect your own gameplan. You don't want cards that are good once you Hymned the opponent or whatever. You want real cards.
I hope I could help you with your decision.
Greetings
I think a key point I was about to make was "You don't want cards that are good once you Hymned the opponent." Also, yes, RIP is a huge issue. If that hymn was a thoughtseize, maybe, but we are then 2 for 1'ing ourselves vs the control player. Hymn's value rises with rest in peace, as it permanently removes cards, while SE becomes a dead card.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Against some pairings (wich dont play wastelands) in my opinion is correct to sideboarding out a land if you need to put a lot of sideboard cards in the main deck, for example against miracles, i would sideboarding out the second bayou or the second tropical island (Depeding on your land configuration) but in your case if you sideboard in tar pit, i would sideboarding out 1 underground sea, I think that this is better than sideboarding out a DRS.Quote:
I am thinking:
-4 Daze
-1 Decay
-1 ? (DRS?)
+3 Spell Pierce, Clique, Needle, Tar Pit
Seems fair enough.
Thanks :D
Great points all around.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
While I am a D&T player exclusively right now, I used to play TA and miss it more than the other UXx Tempo decks I played throughout last year. I figured, since I caught SE being discussed, I'd chime in with a quick story:
I was playing D&T against Fish a month or so ago. Game one was close and he was obviously tilted, since his Thassa (God of the Fuck You Doing in Legacy?) had failed to do anything relevant at all.
Game two he (correctly) FoWs my Vial. He then (incorrectly) extracts it from my yard. None in hand, leaving me with six and him at three (no first turn plays).
I proceed to beat the crap out of him with Sword of Fire and Ice + Batterskull off my turn-two SFM.
Anyway, no real new data there, just wanted to give an example of surgical extraction blowing up miserably in one's face.
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
The real question is why would he play surgical against D&T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning
Also a fair questionQuote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.
Played my TNN list to an awful 2-3 result yesterday. Lost vs Grixis Delver Pyromancer (close games, my opponent said he had the nuts every time), Pox (uuuuuugh), and Burn (won game one after DRS giving me 6 life).
I still think TNN is pretty good.
I'm experimenting a bit with TNN myself (playing a 1/1 TNN / Tombstalker split right now).
My problem with Tombstalker (I do love that guy!) is that we seem to board him out in pretty much every matchup. Control, any deck with RIP, Combo... he only seems to stay in post-board against the non-white fair decks.
Of course, I do despise making my Golgari Charms worse by playing TNN, but TNN was pretty good for me the couple times I played him so far. More testing is required, of course.
Also, anyone have any tips on the Painter matchup? My meta's starting to get infested with those, so I figured I'd pick some brains and see what people thought on it.
When sideboarding, I'm really torn on Hymn to Tourach vs Painter. On one hand, they play that terrible Stompy manabase, so they're fairly inconsistent, but BB vs a deck that runs a bunch of Blood Moons seems rough.
Play sneak and show.
Jk. Keep a fow handy for their Yahtzee draws of t1 or t2 blood moon. Deathrite is good too. If you can disrupt their first attempt to cold you with moon you can usually pull it off. I usually like hymn since they have no way of getting ahead on cards other than top. And they often spend extra cards to play things, read spirit guide. Therefore a hymn can usually hellbent them pretty quick, if you can still cast spells that is. Lilliana is too slow though. Don't think you will ultimate her to get rid of their moon. I did that once the guy just kept his moon and waited patiently for lands and win con
On Tombstalker vs. TNN, the way I see it is it's a matter of metagame and preference. I think boarding out Tombstalker a lot is unavoidable since this Delver deck's threat density is higher than other two most played tempo decks, RUG and UWR. When facing combo and control you want to side out some number of threats anyways for more disruption so that you don't die right away to their bombs. Thus, you're going to side out the slowest threats first. Against combo and miracles I usually side out both stalkers and a goyf or two. The same would apply if you're running TNN in the tombstalker slot because it's slower than all your other threats. In an open metagame I prefer Tombstalker because it allows me to have asymmetric Golgari charms and often just straight up kills my opponent since by the time I've played him they've used all their removal to answer my previous threats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
The painter matchup is only hard when they get an early blood moon. I've found it to be pretty easy other wise. The fact that their combo is permanent based means abrupt decay goes a long way in disrupting them. Discard is really good against them in general. An early Hymn into Liliana of the Veil will often just put the game out of their reach. I would keep in whatever Liliana's you have main deck and maybe side in anymore if you have room. In general I treat them like any other combo deck when sbing and shave my stalkers and maybe a goyf or two for more ways to disrupt them, usually the most flexible options like spell pierce since I don't have much to sb out.
Played the standard list to a 4-0 and double ID into top-8 today. Lost the quarters to Pox unfortunately.
Main: 2x Stalker, 1x Sylvan, 1x Lily.
Side: 4x Pierce, 3x Disfigure, 2x Charm, 1x Submerge, 1x Krosan Grip, 1x Surgical, 1x Cage, 1x Clique, 1x Lily.
R1: Team America with Confidants. 2-0
R2: Dredge. 2-0
R3: OmniHalls. 2-0
R4: Punishing Jund. 2-1 (close call in the third, but it's a tough matchup)
R5: ID
R6: ID
Quarters: Mono B Pox. 0-2
Findings:
1. Sylvan Library is just sick. I want a second somewhere in my 75.
2. Tombstalker is too good to cut.
3. Seriously... Pox with Pack Rats is tough to beat. Maybe he was lucky. Mybe I was unlucky. Maybe I messed up here and there. But it's a dangerous deck. He went undefeated 4-0, 2x ID and wins in the quarters and semis and then split the final. We should keep an eye open for that deck. Might become a serious contender.
Pox is really good vs a field of fair decks, the tournament I described above had two Pox decks and iirc they both T8:ed. The match-up is pretty horrible for us, I'd say. If you plan on attending a big tournament, make sure you have some byes handy.
Pox is deceptively powerful now that we live in a True-Name Nemesis world. It's probably the best equipped deck to deal with TNN and the deck is affordable enough for it to be a popular choice for newer players. It also absolutely wrecks any deck that tries to cast Delver of Secrets and is one of the tempo deck's nightmare matchups. It's even worse for us because our Abrupt Decays can really only target The Rack/Cursed Scroll and our Hymn to Tourachs are terrible.
Decay also hits their Lillys, my Pox opponent referred to above manage to play her off of Dark Ritual on turn one in both game 1 and 2. -_-Quote:
Originally Posted by Grand Superior
Maybe Pox really is that bad a matchup. It felt winnable when I played it, but I did need to draw well.
I'm thinking about writing a report again, but I have no time right now, so that might take a few days.
As for now: any thoughts about my sideboard?
4x Pierce
3x Disfigure
1x Submerge
2x Golgari Charm
1x Surgical
1x Grafdigger
1x Krosan Grip
1x Liliana
1x Clique
It's not too hard to "draw well" against pox in any given game when you play any amount of cantrips. Often you just win though the sheer consistency cantrips provide you. That has been my experience playing against pox players at least. Haven't lost too many matches to them. Then again, most of the pox players I've played against were bad. One guy effectively locked himself out of the game by playing nether void. I was fine with that because he was on only three or four lands so all his relevant stuff got mana leaked while I eventually killed him with threats I found with Sylvan Library.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Two lists with Dark Confidant in yesterdays SCG. Not sure if I like him over Tombstalker, but I'm going to test him out if I feel like playing Team at my LGS tomorrow. From a meta standpoint I think he might just be better with UWR and other blade decks being amongst the decks to beat. I'll report on how it goes if I do.
To me, playing against Pox is like playing against the Stompy decks - they have potentially very powerful hands that are difficult to overcome, but their inherent inconsistencies will lose them more games in the long term against a super consistent deck like Delver decks.
Yes, I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Esper3k
I think that the most crucial two points for beating Pox are 1) not to play into Small Pox; and 2) not allowing an early Liliana to see play (i.e. Dark Ritual->Liliana on turn 1).
One of the worst plays that you can make vs. Pox is, on the draw, to go land->1 drop creature w/o Daze back-up. Then the Pox player can drop Small Pox and you lose 3 cards, however, they also lose 3 cards. If you don't play a creature, the Pox player loses 3 cards (assuming that they have a card in hand to discard), while you only lose 2 cards.
Another word of advice about Pox is to keep land-heavy hands. Pox's 4 Small Pox and 4 Sinkholes means that a lot of your land will get eaten.
Most versions of Pox are very slow, so you can slow down, cantrip for land, keep counter mana up, and beat them through card selection. Like Esper3k said, they are only drawing off the top of their deck and they have no cantrips. We have cantrips and we just need to make sure that we have enough land to play them ;)