All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Frantic Search - This one doesn't get nearly enough attention in the B/R threads. It got unbanned in Vintage, perhaps its safe for Legacy as well. It would make Solidarity an actual deck again, which would be nice considering Spiral Tide got, well, an engine. Spiral Tide would also play it but Solidarity would probably be better as the deck wouldn't have to run Candelabra's, and run into Pithing Needles, QPM, etc. while its setting up. You can't really Snapcast Frantic Search unless you're already sitting on 5 lands, so I don't think Tempo would play this, especially since its a cantrip that gets easily Pierced/Dazed. Ponder is way better in Tempo. Frantic Search would likely be played in Reanimator, Dream Halls, SnT.

Worldgorger Dragon - Reanimator is already stupid enough but its GG if you resolve a creature like Iona, Jizzlebrand anyway. You hate it with the same cards either way and we've acquired much better post-board hate for Reanimator since Dragon was legal.

Not so sure:
Oath of Druids - May I refer people who want to protest this choice to Show and Tell which for 3 mana basically does the same thing. Would having both in the same format suck? Perhaps but an enchantment can be dealt with via QPM/GSZ before he has mana to activate it, unlike SnT. I'd like to hear thoughts on this one.

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Covered a million times but Frantic Search is a huge nope. Every combo deck that goes past turn 2 regularly would run it, because hey free filter spell. Nothings suck more than having Frantic Search chained into Frantic Search into another Frantic Search.

Oath of Druids is also a no. Talk about turning the format on it's head. You wouldn't be playing Legacy anymore, you'd be playing Oath vs. anti-Oath vs. Storm.

Dragon can come off the banned list as soon as it learns how to not draw the game. Swing get you to 5 pass the turn with lethal on board. Animate Dead -> Dragon move to game 5... Yeah that seems like something I want to be a part of...

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Brainstorm can't be compared to Mental Misstep because you have to splash a color to play Brainstorm.

Also, Mental Misstep + Snapcaster would be way too nutty; keep in mind the mana cost has an alternative cost so you can still pay 2 life or U.



Cards I want to see come off in the near future, in no particular order and not all at the same time:
Mind Twist - Rarely going to be better than Hymn to Tourach. The only card that might potentially break this is Dream Salvage and somehow I doubt it. By the time its better than Hymn to Tourach, your opponent in most cases will be sitting on a number of cards that would make it basically an overcosted Hymn or slightly better than Hymn.
Survival of the Fittest - This card was fun to play with and against... til Vengevine. I'd say switch the two on the banned list.
Earthcraft - It might get played but it won't wreck anything.
Black Vise - Its about time we had a solid, easily splash able hate card for blue decks. Reanimator might be a lulz inevitability turn 2 so WotC will print a splashable 1cc hate card (Cage) as well as Dredge, but blue has solidified a permanent position in the DTB. It would likely be good against slow control decks but Tempo decks can comfortably sit out of range at 4 cards.
Mind's Desire - Discussed to death, but safe. Worse than Time Spiral in High Tide combo and wouldn't even get played along side it as Meditate is better is more situations, while Ad Nauseam is a better engine for Dark Ritual combo. At most TES would get a new Wishboard toy but we'd have to consult Mr. Cook on that.
Frantic Search - This one doesn't get nearly enough attention in the B/R threads. It got unbanned in Vintage, perhaps its safe for Legacy as well. It would make Solidarity an actual deck again, which would be nice considering Spiral Tide got, well, an engine. Spiral Tide would also play it but Solidarity would probably be better as the deck wouldn't have to run Candelabra's, and run into Pithing Needles, QPM, etc. while its setting up. You can't really Snapcast Frantic Search unless you're already sitting on 5 lands, so I don't think Tempo would play this, especially since its a cantrip that gets easily Pierced/Dazed. Ponder is way better in Tempo. Frantic Search would likely be played in Reanimator, Dream Halls, SnT.
Worldgorger Dragon - Reanimator is already stupid enough but its GG if you resolve a creature like Iona, Jizzlebrand anyway. You hate it with the same cards either way and we've acquired much better post-board hate for Reanimator since Dragon was legal.

Not so sure:
Oath of Druids - May I refer people who want to protest this choice to Show and Tell which for 3 mana basically does the same thing. Would having both in the same format suck? Perhaps but an enchantment can be dealt with via QPM/GSZ before he has mana to activate it, unlike SnT. I'd like to hear thoughts on this one.

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But oath doesnt require you to have a creature in hand. Ald with all the counters and cantrips those decks can run they can protzct it easily. I think that oath would be a strict upgrade to show n tell in some decks.

Let me tell you a story about Show & Oath...

4 Oath of Druids
4 Show and Tell
4 Emrakul
2 Dragon's Breath
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
2 Beast Within
18 land including Forbidden Orchard

I think mind twist and earthcraft are the next two to come off. Neither are degenerate and may see fringe play at best. Earthcraft can go enchantress and MUD could splash Mind Twist maybe??(If a deck can play hymn it will over mind twist I think)

I remember the good days when I played chatter of squirrels squirrel mob and deranged hermit with squirrel nest and earthcraft. Ah.... Those were the days!

The format doesnt need Mind Twist. Maybe People underestimate it because it doesn't see Vintage play? Hands with broken accelerators tend to empty out much quicker than formats that have to play land drops making that sort of effect less desirable.

It does not add anything to the format. It is a mindless "opps-look-did-I-win?" card. Doesn't involve any setup and a Hymn for 3 to 4 cards is going to be YOUR ENTIRE HAND.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Covered a million times but Frantic Search is a huge nope. Every combo deck that goes past turn 2 regularly would run it, because hey free filter spell. Nothings suck more than having Frantic Search chained into Frantic Search into another Frantic Search.

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Perhaps.. but Ad Nauseam combo wouldn't play it as 3cc. I see it making SnT decks, Reanimator, Faerie Stompy, and High Tide a little better. Then again, I'd prefer a format where Show and Tell was banned anyway. Without SnT, it still might facilitate turn 3 Dream Halls with Tomb/City and 2 Islands. But that deck needs Show and Tell if it wants to be competitive anyway. Also, its worth mentioning that Tempo decks probably wouldn't play it as they tend to play off fewer lands.

Perhaps FS would be safe to unban if Show and Tell were to get banned.

Also, keep in mind that they would have to find something to cut. Its not just an auto-include in a vacuum. What is it replacing in these decks? Ponder? Careful Study (Reanimator)? These cards are better because they can be played within the first few turns of the game and while you are short on lands, unlike Frantic Search. Otherwise, you're cutting protection spells, which is just wrong if you want to have a game plan against the various control decks played currently. These combo decks might have room for like 2 copies. Also, you shouldn't demonize cards because they would be played but because they would make the format unbalanced and I don't think Frantic Search would create that situation. At the worst High Tide decks get better than they already are. Solidarity hasn't been competitive forever and has a high skill cap while Spiral Tide lately has been performing as well as Doomsday, Stax, Dreadstill, and Ubgx Landstill. Also, Candelabra's still cost a shit ton so there is a price cap on that deck as well, especially if it gets popular after a Frantic Search unban.

Its more abusable in decks that can untap a land that adds a bunch of mana, like in High Tide combo. Not the greatest comparison... but compare the card to Gitaxian Probe for a minute, which is also free (2 life) but it can be cast early and lets you see the opponents hand.. instead of drawing you +1 card and making you discard 2 of them while costing 3 mana. You can Daze/Pierce a Frantic Search but if you Daze/Pierce Ponder, they aren't completely tapped out for the rest of the turn and can protect their cantrip with their own Spell Pierce if they choose. Also, Probe has actually been played recently in decks like Sneak Show and TES because it lets you see if the coast is clear or if you have enough protection to get there. Is the application of seeing the opponent's hand worth it when juxtaposed with draw an additional card and discard 2 of them? I think Probe has its own niche as a cycler and actually works better in most of these combos decks that might run FS.. while not costing 3 and actually replacing itself unlike FS which leaves you with -1 card post-FS.

I'm open to the idea of Frantic Search being completely busted, but frankly I don't see it.

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Originally Posted by menace13

The format doesnt need Mind Twist. Maybe People underestimate it because it doesn't see Vintage play? Hands with broken accelerators tend to empty out much quicker than formats that have to play land drops making that sort of effect less desirable.

It does not add anything to the format. It is a mindless "opps-look-did-I-win?" card. Doesn't involve any setup and a Hymn for 3 to 4 cards is going to be YOUR ENTIRE HAND.

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Twist for 3-4 doesn't involve any setups? May as well say that hardcasting emrakul doesn't involve any setups. Costing 4-5 is an huge point in a format that sit on 3 lands, has a super-low curve and has pierce everywhere.

If you want a real blowout play at 4-5 you should play Jace. The other card that are actually hardcasted at 4 mana are Sneak attack, and GSZ for KotR (other may include: stax cards that don't win anything and Nic Fit fatties that are Z-tier too). All those decks are designed to take maximum advantage of said cards and those cards are all bomby win conditions (GSZ is good even at 1, and the deck play +8 1-mana accelerants , SnT win as you untap and Jace is protected by permission and removal that ensure u arrive at turn 4-5 alive and well). How you'd design a deck around Mind Twist? It's not always a good play and it's bad in the lategame, something you'd never want from an X-spell. Versatility of the X if 90% of the case it would be just a worse Hymn. It isn't a very good win condition either, since it need other cards after it to work, whereas GSZ and Jace win on their own. Well unless you play a fine card like the Rack and then we're back to 1999 town and i'll answer your the rack with a Jamyeadae Tome.

p.s. i also heard that FoF and Gift Ungiven do everything that Twist do, better, at instant speed, and are never played.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Mind's Desire - Discussed to death, but safe. Worse than Time Spiral in High Tide combo and wouldn't even get played along side it as Meditate is better is more situations, while Ad Nauseam is a better engine for Dark Ritual combo. At most TES would get a new Wishboard toy but we'd have to consult Mr. Cook on that.

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I would say that the chief difference is that Ad Nauseam can be countered.

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Frantic Search - This one doesn't get nearly enough attention in the B/R threads. It got unbanned in Vintage, perhaps its safe for Legacy as well. It would make Solidarity an actual deck again, which would be nice considering Spiral Tide got, well, an engine. Spiral Tide would also play it but Solidarity would probably be better as the deck wouldn't have to run Candelabra's, and run into Pithing Needles, QPM, etc. while its setting up. You can't really Snapcast Frantic Search unless you're already sitting on 5 lands, so I don't think Tempo would play this, especially since its a cantrip that gets easily Pierced/Dazed. Ponder is way better in Tempo. Frantic Search would likely be played in Reanimator, Dream Halls, SnT.

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High Tide decks with ~8 counters don't need to go off reliably on turn 3, which is what Frantic Search would enable.

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Oath of Druids - May I refer people who want to protest this choice to Show and Tell which for 3 mana basically does the same thing. Would having both in the same format suck? Perhaps but an enchantment can be dealt with via QPM/GSZ before he has mana to activate it, unlike SnT. I'd like to hear thoughts on this one.

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I think Natural Order, Hypergenesis, SnT, and Sneak Attack are enough ways to cheat Emrakul and friends into play; the format doesn't need another card like these in particular, much less one that costs only two mana.

Other than these three, I agree with your list.

Oath is too good. You only need one card instead of two, two mana instead of three, and you can trivially win the game on the spot if it triggers even once.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I would say that the chief difference is that Ad Nauseam can be countered.

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In most cases, but not since post-board Flusterstorm (and Snapcaster to play it again) which sees quite a bit of play. In modern times control players can even answer Empty the Warrens.

I've tried to play it in existing decks as well as Desire specific builds and it simply requires a storm count that is too high for it to be on par with the other storm engines. If you slow down, then the deck runs into the problem of being comparable in speed with SnT and Reanimator, since both can play Force of Will and your friendly neighborhood cantrips.. in which case, why are you playing Desire?

In High Tide, Time Spiral also double as an untap spell, though Desire would likely hit one; however, Time Spiral also requires 0 storm investment. Desire is only good later in the spell chain in High Tide. I've tested it and even preferred Meditate to a single copy of Desire; whenever Desire won the game, Meditate would have done the job as well while there were a lot of hand where Desire was dead or an overcosted Meditate.

If you ran it along side Ad Nauseam in the maindeck, then thats -6 when you are drawing with AdN. Also, the storm count has to consistently be 7+ for it to be a kill. Decks like TES have a lot of trouble getting to this storm count going off from 7 cards, and you can always brick and hit lands with it. Also, though you can counter AdN it requires 0 storm investment, is on color with Dark Ritual, and its would be rare to go for Mind's Desire instead of Ad Nauseam.

In terms of reaching +7 storm and getting a kill, it functions most effectively in a glass house Belcher-esque list that plays stuff like Manamorphose. Even there, it wasn't better than Belcher or SI.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

High Tide decks with ~8 counters don't need to go off reliably on turn 3, which is what Frantic Search would enable.

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I don't disagree with this. It would certainly replace Turnabout and create a pretty reliable turn 3 combo. However, does this make the deck overpowered? SnT and Reanimator can pretty reliably go off on or by turn 3 and gain inevitability playing a similar sized protection suite and those decks are far easier to play. Also, control has Flusterstorm and a larger countersuite to fight back.. not to mention the fastest evasive Tempo clock we've seen in Legacy ever via a flipped Delver of Secrets. And then there's decks playing white maindecking Thalia which High Tide decks cannot stop with Pact of Negation, Flusterstorm, or Spell Pierce (in Spiral Tide). They need Force if they want to avoid playing around it with Cunning Wish and getting to their 4th land drop, going off turn 5. Playing devil's advocate.. I guess GSZ--> Teeg will do absolutely nothing to Solidarity after they can drop Turnabout.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I think Natural Order, Hypergenesis, SnT, and Sneak Attack are enough ways to cheat Emrakul and friends into play; the format doesn't need another card like these in particular, much less one that costs only two mana.

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Agreed. I was just throwing it out there for comparison to Show and Tell/Sneak Attack really.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

Other than these three, I agree with your list.

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Indeed sir.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Agreed. I was just throwing it out there for comparison to Show and Tell/Sneak Attack really.

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There is no comparison between Show and Tell and Oath of Druids. One requires 2 mana and that you run maybe 2 fatties the other requires 3 mana and you need to run at least 7-8 fatties and lets your opponent drop a permanent for free.

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Originally Posted by Gheizen64

Twist for 3-4 doesn't involve any setups? May as well say that hardcasting emrakul doesn't involve any setups. Costing 4-5 is an huge point in a format that sit on 3 lands, has a super-low curve and has pierce everywhere.

If you want a real blowout play at 4-5 you should play Jace. The other card that are actually hardcasted at 4 mana are Sneak attack, and GSZ for KotR (other may include: stax cards that don't win anything and Nic Fit fatties that are Z-tier too). All those decks are designed to take maximum advantage of said cards and those cards are all bomby win conditions (GSZ is good even at 1, and the deck play +8 1-mana accelerants , SnT win as you untap and Jace is protected by permission and removal that ensure u arrive at turn 4-5 alive and well). How you'd design a deck around Mind Twist? It's not always a good play and it's bad in the lategame, something you'd never want from an X-spell. Versatility of the X if 90% of the case it would be just a worse Hymn. It isn't a very good win condition either, since it need other cards after it to work, whereas GSZ and Jace win on their own. Well unless you play a fine card like the Rack and then we're back to 1999 town and i'll answer your the rack with a Jamyeadae Tome.

p.s. i also heard that FoF and Gift Ungiven do everything that Twist do, better, at instant speed, and are never played.

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Involving no set up means getting to 4 or 5 lands in a decks that cast 4 to 5 mana spells. Seems simple enough, no? It doesn't need anything else in hand or in play. Emrakul needs 15 mana or another card. Not the same.

You do not design a deck around around Mind Twist. Take the Blade decks that play Black and add 1 or 2 Twists. There it goes now with all those neat little things you said about permission and removal.

It isn't a win condition. It puts you into a winning position.

It's a blowout card when it resolves. Not up for debate, unless you are an expert at playing without a hand and 2 to 3 lands in play. Clearly, you must be a pro at this. Sure the game isn't technically over after you get Twisted but it's really over. What are you going to do? Go Runner, Runner, Runner off the top?

Now maybe all you can envision is you windmill slamming down those Jaces, S&T and Green Suns and winning, but what If Twist hits before that? What then? At least Jace leaves me with Answers in hand(not many in print, but w/e). Guess what Against Show and Tell I get to Show something from my hand...

Are we clear on how important a hand is?

Ok, now I'm not always in your world of "Oh but I get to cast these things first and have all these things to stop yours and even if you do I have threats in play that go all the way despite my empty hand". That can make anything look good or bad, really it means shit.

It is a card that increases variance and reduces the skill requirement to win.

Is it Cavius Day already?

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

There is no comparison between Show and Tell and Oath of Druids. One requires 2 mana and that you run maybe 2 fatties the other requires 3 mana and you need to run at least 7-8 fatties and lets your opponent drop a permanent for free.

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And an upkeep to activate. You could run into QPM or Krosan Grip before the triggered ability goes on the stack.

They both enable fat dudes so I think they can be compared. The deck structure for Oath.dec is definitely more relaxed because you can play fewer dudes in the maindeck. Currently Oath would be complimented by Show and Tell but in that situation where SnT was banned and Oath legal (something I mentioned), you'd have to play Enlightened Tutor or something to find it or else you are chasing a single 4'of with cantrips to go off while Sneak/Show can play more enablers maindeck and go off with minimal sculpting. The deck structure would certainly allow the deck to play a slower game with disruption, but I think a slower combo deck like this that gives the opponent time to GSZ out a QPM, find Karakas with KoTR, play Thalia, would be more balanced than having the option to win with Show and Tell or Sneak Attack with Force of Will back up before the opponent even gets a chance to play some disruption.

Oath lets you play Reanimator/SneakShow without having to maindeck 7 fat guys and also not having to have one in hand; however, the format might be ready for Oath if Show and Tell gets banned. Oath would be a slow control/combo deck that is occasionally very explosive. Also, you can Spell Snare --> Oath, but not Show and Tell or Sneak Attack (and they were never legal in Legacy at the same time). I'd imagine that if Oath were legal blue players would drop post-board copies of Flusterstorm for Spell Snare. That might make storm a little better but Spell Snare counters IT/BW in TES so its not like you are removing storm hate, just replacing it with something that does more against the format.



Also, I forgot to mention on my list that Mana Drain is probably an unsafe ban in the future, but not right now. Blue is good enough as it is without getting another toy to play with.

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Originally Posted by Oracle text

Card Name:
Oath of Druids
Mana Cost:
1G
Types:
Enchantment
Card Text:
At the beginning of each player's upkeep, that player chooses target player who controls more creatures than he or she does and is his or her opponent. The first player may reveal cards from the top of his or her library until he or she reveals a creature card. If he or she does, that player puts that card onto the battlefield and all other cards revealed this way into his or her graveyard.

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It's still as slow as S&T given that it waits until next upkeep, but the entire 1-card-combo-vs-most-decks-in-legacy angle pushes it safely over the event horizon as far as unbannings are concerned imo.

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Originally Posted by menace13

It is a card that increases variance and reduces the skill requirement to win.

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If this was WotC approach to the banned list, then why is Show and Tell still legal? Mind Twist is a blow out when it resolves but by the time your opponent lets it resolve what did you cut for it that wouldn't have also blown the opponent out had it resolved? Phyrexian Obliterator comes to mind around the same mana cost. There are plenty of other examples. Liliana. Deed perhaps. Jace if you're in U/B. There are cards you could play in its place that not only put you in a winning position from a neutral position, but either a neutral position from a losing position or a winning position from a losing position. Mind Twist mostly helps you go from neutral to winning and rarely anything else.

It might put you in a winning position, but not in all cases. Just like Hymn to Tourach is great, but not when you are behind or in the mid to late game. This card can't replace Hymn and if you run it along side Hymn you are playing more dead cards in your mid to late game after you've put yourself in that winning position.

I have a feeling that Mindtwist will be best suited to decks with good library manipulation. So likely decks like BUG Control w/ SDT. That looks like the best place for it. It would get played.. as a 1'of perhaps. It would be good, but it wouldn't be overpowered or format wrecking, especially since you don't want to 3-4'of an XB spell thats bad against a bunch of decks past turn 4-5.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

If this was WotC approach to the banned list, then why is Show and Tell still legal? Mind Twist is a blow out when it resolves but by the time your opponent lets it resolve what did you cut for it that wouldn't have also blown the opponent out had it resolved? Phyrexian Obliterator comes to mind around the same mana cost. There are plenty of other examples. Liliana. Deed perhaps. Jace if you're in U/B. There are cards you could play in its place that not only put you in a winning position from a neutral position, but either a neutral position from a losing position or a winning position from a losing position. Mind Twist mostly helps you go from neutral to winning and rarely anything else.

It might put you in a winning position, but not in all cases. Just like Hymn to Tourach is great, but not when you are behind or in the mid to late game. This card can't replace Hymn and if you run it along side Hymn you are playing more dead cards in your mid to late game after you've put yourself in that winning position.

I have a feeling that Mindtwist will be best suited to decks with good library manipulation. So likely decks like BUG Control w/ SDT. That looks like the best place for it. It would get played.. as a 1'of perhaps. It would be good, but it wouldn't be overpowered or format wrecking, especially since you don't want to 3-4'of an XB spell thats bad against a bunch of decks past turn 4-5.

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Most of the decks that play Jace will want a Twist and can support it easily.

It is a very good card.

Show and Tell is exactly that type of card and I veiw them the same. Differences being Show and Tell needs to be built around. It is a cornerstone of the deck. Ad Naus is a blowout card but I cant just stick it into a deck. As much as I would love to go "Ad Naus-->> Look at all theze Jaces"!! It won't work.

Not every deck will play it, I dont think it will be a 4 of. But it is leagues better than Hymn. It doesnt need to be in BUG only. One black mana and x makes it splashable.

Very few games can be won once Twist hits a hand. Most decks will have around 4 cards in hand by turn 4 or after and even 3 cards half your hand at best. I mean there are exceptions and of course different scenarios always and I might be more biased because i dont like playing against the card.

Edit: Which brings me to Show and Tell and Planeswalkers. Why won't they errata this already? Maybe even Cataclysm?

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

And an upkeep to activate. You could run into QPM or Krosan Grip before the triggered ability goes on the stack.

They both enable fat dudes so I think they can be compared. The deck structure for Oath.dec is definitely more relaxed because you can play fewer dudes in the maindeck. Currently Oath would be complimented by Show and Tell but in that situation where SnT was banned and Oath legal (something I mentioned), you'd have to play Enlightened Tutor or something to find it or else you are chasing a single 4'of with cantrips to go off while Sneak/Show can play more enablers maindeck and go off with minimal sculpting. The deck structure would certainly allow the deck to play a slower game with disruption, but I think a slower combo deck like this that gives the opponent time to GSZ out a QPM, find Karakas with KoTR, play Thalia, would be more balanced than having the option to win with Show and Tell or Sneak Attack with Force of Will back up before the opponent even gets a chance to play some disruption.

Oath lets you play Reanimator/SneakShow without having to maindeck 7 fat guys and also not having to have one in hand; however, the format might be ready for Oath if Show and Tell gets banned. Oath would be a slow control/combo deck that is occasionally very explosive. Also, you can Spell Snare --> Oath, but not Show and Tell or Sneak Attack (and they were never legal in Legacy at the same time). I'd imagine that if Oath were legal blue players would drop post-board copies of Flusterstorm for Spell Snare. That might make storm a little better but Spell Snare counters IT/BW in TES so its not like you are removing storm hate, just replacing it with something that does more against the format.

Also, I forgot to mention on my list that Mana Drain is probably an unsafe ban in the future, but not right now. Blue is good enough as it is without getting another toy to play with.

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Yes congratulations you named 2 cards that beat a card that defines an entire top tier archetype in Vintage and has been banned in Legacy since the inception after ruining a season of Extended. I guess it's not broken after all. Oh you want to play Black Lotus okay, Null Rod comes down first turn off Ancient Tomb and I can play Chalice for zero on the play, unban Lotus.

Oh and good lucky accelerating into a turn 2 Pridemage activation or Grip on the draw against Oath (Which runs counters and possibly discard by the by).

Oath would ruin the format, stop playing yourself.

I wish people would build decks to highlight how stupidly absurd the banned cards are, then claim they should be banned or unbanned.

Theorycraft is bubkis.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

Yes congratulations you named 2 cards that beat a card that defines an entire top tier archetype in Vintage and has been banned in Legacy since the inception after ruining a season of Extended. I guess it's not broken after all. Oh you want to play Black Lotus okay, Null Rod comes down first turn off Ancient Tomb and I can play Chalice for zero on the play, unban Lotus.

Oh and good lucky accelerating into a turn 2 Pridemage activation or Grip on the draw against Oath (Which runs counters and possibly discard by the by).

Oath would ruin the format, stop playing yourself.

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Vintage also plays a lot of 1cc tutors that this format does not have and fast Mox mana to accelerate an early oath as well as support the splashes. Enlightened Tutor in Oath? Perhaps. You aren't landing it turn 2 every game though so you don't need QPM by turn 2 every game to beat Oath, you'd probably have time quite often to GSZ for QPM as well as slow down their sculpting with Thalia. If KoTR comes down you can find Karakas. Oath will come down turn 2 sometimes, but other times it will get countered or discarded. Where's the deck's backup plan when discard brings in Surgical Extraction? Show and Tell? I'd only be remotely comfortable with Oath in the format if Show and Tell was banned anyway.

Also, Oath isn't even restricted in Vintage. Add on Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, and yeah I can see it hitting play early game quite often when you can run 7 virtual copies of it with so much fast mana.. and Time Walk to walk right into Emrakul. But this isn't Vintage. Jace can come down turn 4 on the play and bounce Emmy. Liliana can make you sacrifice him. Karakas can bounce him; KoTR can find Karakas. Then there's shit like Innocent Blood. Emmy also can't attack until turn 4 as you don't get the extra turn, same as if you cast SnT turn 3. Grafdigger's Cage one shots the deck and is completely splashable and can come down before Oath can even activate on turn 3. Cage isn't even Oath specific hate, it can be applied against Reanimator, Dredge, and a few other decks. And again, post-board Spell Snare would probably see more play as its another 1cc answer to Oath. Surgical Extraction in discard decks also turns off the decks primary engine, not to mention you could also play this in a deck with a countersuite and just Surgical a countered Oath. If you want to get fancy and beat tehh countermagicz, you can always play Extirpate.

Likely Oath.dec would replace SnT variants if it got banned but Legacy doesn't have the resources to make Oath as overpowered as it is in Vintage. It would be really good, probably Tier 1 like SnT. I'm not suggesting we unban it immediately. I'd like to see Show and Tell get banned before WotC even looks at Oath. Also, by that time, there will likely be more cards that can answer Oath, much like Cage, Spell Snare, QPM, Grip, and Surgical Extraction have been printed since Oath has been banned. We'll likely acquire something else to shrink its power level some more. I don't, however, think it should fall to the way side and be compared to Black Lotus.