[Deck] The Rock

Sorry guys! There should be a cannot post after beer seven button app on my phone! I sounded was a total douche last night, please blame Stella Artois.

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Originally Posted by Hanni

Damion, regarding the piece of your blog where you mentioned that adding an extra fetchland shrinks Knights... I realize that. I addressed that a page or two back. If your opponent isn't binning any lands themselves during the early game, you just have to bite the bullet. Since you really only need the effect of the mana dork during the first few turns of the game (until you empty your hand or hit enough lands to not need it anymore), it's only going to be a minor shrink to Knight. In comparison, running a couple of extra fetchlands will help compensate for the loss of lands from Shaman. Knight may still end up being smaller than he could have been, but the impact will be significantly reduced. This is also assuming your opponent is not binning any fetchlands, and you're not putting lands into their yard with Wasteland.

I'm not sure if this is a standardized manabase, but it's the only one that was posted on the last page:

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Marsh Flats
3 Scrubland
3 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Maze of Ith
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
4 Wasteland

From there, I question the need of Sronghold in a list with not only a huge threat density to not need it (since it doesn't actually provide card advantage), but also with Ooze/Shaman eating creatures anyway.

-1 Stronghold
+1 Marsh Flats

From there, I would agree on the usefulness of both Karakas and Maze of Ith. Normally I would question the use of basics in such a color heavy 3-color deck, but since Shaman can be cast by both Forest and Swamp to provide mana of any color, I'll accept the basics and move on.

From there, I could justify cutting a Scrubland and a Bayou for two more fetchlands.

-1 Bayou
-1 Scrubland
+2 Windswept Heath

That still gives 5 actual duals to grab + 2 basics + 1 Karakas + 4 Wasteland, and it's not like you ever need to hit a ton of lands in play at one time (and you have Shamans). Aside from the vulnerability to Stifle (which I'd argue is less important than the increased stability against Wasteland), you actually increase your virtual color sources (or rather, access to specific color sources). Your chances of actually drawing a Scrubland or Bayou is decreased, but your chances of having a Bayou or Scrubland in play is increased (based on whatever you decide to grab with the fetchlands). Not only does your vulnerability to Wasteland decrease, you're entire deck is actually becoming functionally better at providing the correct color sources that you need. To top it all off, with or without Shaman, you're improving your Knight's dramatically. The only serious drawbacks here the increased vulnerability to Stifle, and the additional life loss from fetchlands. The vulnerability to Stifle seems like a wash since your gaining strength at playing around Wasteland (the extra fetches also increase your ability to fetch up basics), and the life loss should be negated by Shaman anyways (plus Batterskull and Jitte if you run those).

Why 6-8 fetchlands is the accepted norm for decks running Knight of the Reliquary is beyond me. I can understand doing so in normal decks (that don't benefit from having extra fetchlands), and especially decks that either want to have a lot of land in play or care about the life loss (typically control decks in both of these cases). This isn't a normal deck. I see no reason, in this manabase, to not cut the two duals for two more fetchlands. The extra 2 fetchlands may not support Shaman enough to compensate for Knight, but once you consider that almost every single deck in the format is running fetchlands and nonbasics (for Wasteland targets)... I guess I just don't see the problem. Any size shrinkage on Knight can be made up for by Shaman being able to ping the opponent for 2 damage a turn vs Birds not doing any damage vs Hierarch providing Exalted... and that's not counting the utility to exile relevant cards from the opponent's graveyard, or the relevance of the life gain against aggressive decks like Burn/Sligh/Zoo/etc.

I will restate again, that the manabase above may not be standard or typical of manabases. I'm just using it as a basis for duscussion, and it was the only decklist (with a manabase) from the previous page. Maybe other people are running additional Horizon Canopies or a Bojuka Bog or something. Canopy does sac itself though, and Bog seems a little redundant in the maindeck with 4 Shaman's (I'd still most definitely include it in the sideboard though).

The new manabase:

Lands (23)
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
2 Windswept Heath
2 Scrubland
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
4 Wasteland

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Great opportunity for innovation here with the printing of Decay and Shaman. There are a million different ways you can build this variant on the aggro to control spectrum. In order to find focus you need to define what you expect the emerging meta to be. I predict we are going to see three control decks battling it out, Miracle Top, Supreme Blade, BUG, all of which will run board sweepers. On the aggro spectrum, we have Goblins emerging on as the deck to beat. I think Thalia will see play there to help slow down controls board sweeps and combo. Since combo has slowed down we are starting to see the emergence of ramp decks as outlined in Carstens latest article. If Junk/Rock and BUG make a strong showing with Decay we may see miracle top recede which opens the door for Storm.

I like the consistency of your maindeck. It looks like it would struggle against board wipes though. I"ve been considering Lingering Souls as a way to recover from board wipes while also being good blockers against Goblins. SFM into baterskull can be good against board wipes as well

I have a hard time not running GSZ here and Shaman seems like they should be paired together together. If you omit either one the other seems out of place, then you go more Junkish then Rock/Mavrick which is fine. If your not running GSZ I think you want to main deck 3/4 Thalia and move Hymn to the board. It will be interesting to see how Shaman works out, if the tension between her and knight becomes to much.

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

Sorry guys! There should be a cannot post after beer seven button app on my phone! I sounded was a total douche last night, please blame Stella Artois.

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Hasn't this happened to you before? You've argued excessively with me once before, and explained later that you had been drinking since 10 AM :laugh:

@ fetches discussion:
I feel like each land base must be built to each person's distinct preference and play styles. I build mine to have maximum flexibility with minimum vulnerability: As a result, I only have 2 Wastelands. This is generally considered heresy, yet RUG can almost NEVER mana screw me, so I am more than happy with my choices.

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Originally Posted by SMR0079

I've been considering Lingering Souls as a way to recover from board wipes while also being good blockers against Goblins. SFM into baterskull can be good against board wipes as well

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I can vouch that Lingering Souls, while fantastic, is not what this deck wants. When it comes time to kill your opponent, Souls is too slow. When you're trying to block and survive, Souls is very little tempo gain and really stifles your other development. In general, equipment and bigger dudes does all those jobs better for us. Stoneforge is nuts. If you're deciding between the two, go with Stoneforge. Hanni's post, which you're referring to, doesn't really care about board wipes, as he's trying to build a tempo deck, a la RUG

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

Hasn't this happened to you before? You've argued excessively with me once before, and explained later that you had been drinking since 10 .

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It isn't my fault!! I was at a food event with my job and my boss kept getting us wine and Stella while we were serving media type folks duck!! Blame him.

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

Hasn't this happened to you before? You've argued excessively with me once before, and explained later that you had been drinking since 10 AM :laugh:

@ fetches discussion:
I feel like each land base must be built to each person's distinct preference and play styles. I build mine to have maximum flexibility with minimum vulnerability: As a result, I only have 2 Wastelands. This is generally considered heresy, yet RUG can almost NEVER mana screw me, so I am more than happy with my choices.


I can vouch that Lingering Souls, while fantastic, is not what this deck wants. When it comes time to kill your opponent, Souls is too slow. When you're trying to block and survive, Souls is very little tempo gain and really stifles your other development. In general, equipment and bigger dudes does all those jobs better for us. Stoneforge is nuts. If you're deciding between the two, go with Stoneforge. Hanni's post, which you're referring to, doesn't really care about board wipes, as he's trying to build a tempo deck, a la RUG

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I get you on Souls but Hanni's list is not really tempo. I love SFM - just lost in the finals of our local dual event with Supreme Stoneblade, but I'm not sure it answers this decks weakness to control and board wipes very well, and we already beat the aggro decks with superior creatures and removal. We need to test against the 3 control decks more but SFM was the worst card against rug and was not needed against Goblins, or course whiffs against combo. So if it's only needed against one meta archetype I don't think it's justified.

SFM is only weak against combo. It has immense value against everything else. If you can use it to bait their answers against control, then you can proceed to win on other cards.

Against control, just play and protect Teeg. It's hilariously excellent

If you're against Miracles, you have to play SoLS like we used to before. That card is redonculous against them.

I've got exams the next bit once again, so I won't be as active. Hymn in the board has been stellar, for those of you that are unaware. Also, I posted this on the pimp thread, but not sure how many of you visit down there, so I'll share my pimped deck:

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0048.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0049.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0050.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0051.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0052.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0053.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0055.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0054.jpg



BOARD

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0046.jpg

http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t...f/scan0047.jpg

-Matt

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Originally Posted by Mirrislegend

SFM is only weak against combo. It has immense value against everything else. If you can use it to bait their answers against control, then you can proceed to win on other cards.

Against control, just play and protect Teeg. It's hilariously excellent

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With SFM having weaknesses against combo I have found another bonus to the shaman/SFM/GSZ list: cabal therapy!! Against combo you ramp mana if you can and then sack a shaman into the pit!! Replaced hymn straight up... I still feel judge's familiar is playable in a wide open metagame.

With the new printings I actually see junk/rock gaining some ground and moving up the tier one board. It has good matchups against all of the graveyard decks with shaman/ooze, has too many sweepers/removal for maverick out of the board, and has the opertunity to beat the metas control decks with equipment and knights. We can even steal wins from combo decks with discard/teeg/extractions.... Not a bad like of cards if you ask me.

@ Matt Hate you man. Just kidding :p i have a pimped deck too, with altered moxen, goyf, hymns... but my duals have white borders..... sigh.
@ ALL
I playtested (very little) shaman + sfm (no goyf) package. Since hymn made itt's way back to the sb, the combo match isn't soo terrible (even without goyf), but rug gets worse (because if I run shaman, I can't find space for moxen, and moxen make the rug match ridiculously easy).
Of course, with shaman instead of mox the deck loses that explosion that dark horizons used to have, and I also lost my green beatsticks, one pulse and one garruk... but It gains versatility. Maybe I'll play it in a tourney that's coming up soon.

I'm really intrerested in your decklist because i play without tarmogoyf, too. Can you post your build please?

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Originally Posted by defector

Just an idea for the fetch land side of the discussion. Wouldn't fetch lands 8-10 be better served as Horizon Canopy? I'm testing a shaman/thalia deck with KOTR and it seems if you do a mana base like:
Fetch X8
Duals X6
Wasteland X4
Basics X3
Canopy X2

That you can find a happy medium between early shaman activations, late game big KOTR and a little draw without dead fetches. just my .02.

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Yee, I play this -2 Canopy replaced with a Karakas / Maze, I feel like those cards are way more important than drawing a card... Btw still testing shamans still a 3 of and excuse my french but fucking loving it. Played today in a small local tournament with my Rock Shaman list and won every match easily. Only 2 decks I played that are note worthy were RUG Delver and a odd Staxx List. RUG devler player was decent but not too good was easy though to play around daze and spell pierce with shaman's on board. Stax list got blown out by my Abrupt Decay's and Vindicates as for the 2nd game Pernicous deed was a boss.

@Deckerator:

I tested the following:

Lands (23)

4 wasteland
2 bayou
3 scrubland
1 canopy horizon
1 maze of ith
4 verdant catacombs
4 marsh flats
1 plains
1 forest
1 swamp
1 karakas

creatures:

3 deathrite shaman
3 stoneforge mystic
4 dark confidant
4 knight of the reliquary

removals:

4 swords to plowshares
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse

discards:

3 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoughtseize

planeswalkers:

2 liliana of the veil

artifacts:

3 sensei's divining top
1 jitte
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire and ice

sideboard:

2 engineered plague
2 pernicious deed
2 oblivion ring
2 surgical extraction
1 extirpate
3 hymn to tourach (or, cabal therapy)
2 rest for the weary ( alot of monoreds in my meta)
1 life from the loam

I kinda liked it. As I said before, it lacks explosion from my other list, but it compensates in other points...

So this is what I've been playing recently. It's a lot more Maverick than Junk/Rock, really, but the Maverick thread doesn't take kindly to splashes.


3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Lingering Souls
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Bayou
4 Wasteland
2 Oblivion Ring
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Gavony Township
2 Cavern of Souls
4 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Plains
1 Swamp
1 Gaea's Cradle
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Qasali Pridemage
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Batterskull
SB: 3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
SB: 1 Oblivion Ring
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze


I took a very similar list and went 4-2 at the last legacy I joined, losing to TES and another combo deck that I don't remember.

Cabal Therapy has been amazing for me. I just call the card I don't want to see if I'm blind, and then sac a Spirit to rip something if I have to.

SOFAF is there to help abuse the extra cards Confidant draws. Sometimes SOFAF allows me to Township twice in one turn, which is insane in grindy creature deck matches. Oblivion Ring has been great. I put it in the deck because of all the Show and Tell, but I've come to like it as extra removal. Also, Gavony Township, lol. It's excellent in this deck. Attacking with 4 spirits and suddenly turning that into 8 power with a Knight isn't easy to deal with.

Deathrite Shaman should work in this deck. I would play it if I had any.

@lavafrogg
I agree with you, I think Familiar is playable. I've been trying to find some room in this deck, since it could help buy time until the opponent can no longer answer all of my threats. The deck runs SFM anyway, and I can just pitch it to Therapy (and get it back with SOLAS).

@ .Ix

Here you are welcome to post.
I have just a few questions/comments:

Running sfm package + lingering souls, it seems you are in no shortage of aggression. Is mother of runes needed?

Can O-ring become something like maelstrom pulse?

This makes room for more utilities/removal...

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Originally Posted by .Ix

@lavafrogg
I agree with you, I think Familiar is playable. I've been trying to find some room in this deck, since it could help buy time until the opponent can no longer answer all of my threats. The deck runs SFM anyway, and I can just pitch it to Therapy (and get it back with SOLAS).

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Yes! One for me! Also this was texted to me by my buddy, not sure where it came from:

"Deathrite Shaman's stock should go up. Worst case scenario, it's a Grim Lavamancer against your control opponents; best case scenario, it hoses an entire strategy."

updates later

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Originally Posted by Sughayyer

@ .Ix

Here you are welcome to post.
I have just a few questions/comments:

Running sfm package + lingering souls, it seems you are in no shortage of aggression. Is mother of runes needed?

Can O-ring become something like maelstrom pulse?

This makes room for more utilities/removal...

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Thanks, Sughayyer.

I'm not sure about the Mother of Runes, but it's won me a ton of games. It helps me stall against creature decks until I get some kind of card advantage engine or threat to start crushing. It also helps keep important hate bears on the field in games 2 and 3. While I don't think it's really needed, I don't know a better one-drop to replace it with. O-Ring could be Pulse in a different meta, but it's far too valuable against Show and Tell for me to cut. It also kills Goyf, Delver, Jace, Sulfur Elemental, and even Jitte while being very easy to cast. I don't think 1GB is that easy to get with this mana base.

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Originally Posted by .Ix

I took a very similar list and went 4-2 at the last legacy I joined, losing to TES and another combo deck that I don't remember.

Cabal Therapy has been amazing for me. I just call the card I don't want to see if I'm blind, and then sac a Spirit to rip something if I have to.

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You only have 4 cabal therapies to beat combo main deck so unless you get super lucky you will not win against a competent combo player, especially without goyf. You should get a teeg in your main to give you a shred of hope that he buys you enough time and then get another Thalia in the board to help your chances of a turn two bear.

Maverick hates splashes because it has a very fragile manabase that actually requires a lot of mana to get going. They run 4 Zenith and 4 Heirarchs to help ramp to reasonable levels of mana production as soon as possible. Not only did you take away half of the decks mana ramping ability, you made the deck more susceptible to wasteland by adding 6 utility lands which is an absurd number. You are a set of wastelands away from having all of your duals killed which is very easy for some decks(RUG/anything with loam/anything with knight), You run 7 fetches for basics but then 14 wasteland targets...wasteland is a format defining card you should not open yourself to easy game losses.

The Township and the Cavern's (and cradle) should probably be duals to let you play more actual lands, and be able to sac them to knight.

Finally, Deathrite Shaman is stupid good and should be run over Noble in any deck that is his colors. Shaman and Therapy are the reason to play this deck at the moment(IMHO).

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Originally Posted by lavafrogg

You only have 4 cabal therapies to beat combo main deck so unless you get super lucky you will not win against a competent combo player, especially without goyf. You should get a teeg in your main to give you a shred of hope that he buys you enough time and then get another Thalia in the board to help your chances of a turn two bear.

Maverick hates splashes because it has a very fragile manabase that actually requires a lot of mana to get going. They run 4 Zenith and 4 Heirarchs to help ramp to reasonable levels of mana production as soon as possible. Not only did you take away half of the decks mana ramping ability, you made the deck more susceptible to wasteland by adding 6 utility lands which is an absurd number. You are a set of wastelands away from having all of your duals killed which is very easy for some decks(RUG/anything with loam/anything with knight), You run 7 fetches for basics but then 14 wasteland targets...wasteland is a format defining card you should not open yourself to easy game losses.

The Township and the Cavern's (and cradle) should probably be duals to let you play more actual lands, and be able to sac them to knight.

Finally, Deathrite Shaman is stupid good and should be run over Noble in any deck that is his colors. Shaman and Therapy are the reason to play this deck at the moment(IMHO).

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I haven't tested Deathrite yet, but I can see how stupid good he is. I'll test once I get some.

Cavern is an actual land, and I agree Cradle is sometimes crap. I've been thinking of taking it out for another basic land or dual. I used to run 4 GSZ and arbor, but I cut the whole thing because I somehow always draw the arbor in the opening hand. I've never been flat out beaten by Wasteland, fwiw. There are only 10 green cards, 8 of which can be cast by 2 Caverns. The 8 black cards only cost B and 1B, and 4 of them can be cast by 2 Caverns. Of the 6 "utility" nonbasics, Township and Cradle are the only things GW Maverick doesn't usually run. Not sure how absurd that is, but the mana base hasn't been a problem so far.

Combo isn't very common around here aside from Show and Tell, which I have yet to lose to in a tournament. (Just a lot of good luck, not saying the deck is at all prepared to fight Show and Tell.) If it does get more common, I'll main all 3 Thalia. Teeg is kinda balls against Show and Tell though, so I'll have to pass on him.

@Lavafrogg

I understand his 4 therapy in maindeck. When I play bw deadguy tokens, therapy is the best discard. Because you just name the card that is going to hinder you NOW, after he puts the spirits on the field, he just rips his hand off. Also, if the first therapy misses, he's ok - because the opponent didn't have the card that hinders him.

However, I agree that therapies should be paired with pointed discard.

@Ix: I like your deck concept. I was working on brewing something similar after seeing the concept in a SCG article. However, I have a major major issue with your list: 11x 3cmc cards with not filtering is a quick way to lose the game to BoB. I sopped this idea when my list hit 7x 3cmc. Yours must kill you all the time!