26 lands while cutting threats ... Sounds like losing to the first Delver dropped for the sake of Mindscensor + Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Is there a metagame in which you just want to just lose game 1 to "the very rare" Delver-decks?
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26 lands while cutting threats ... Sounds like losing to the first Delver dropped for the sake of Mindscensor + Arbiter + Ghost Quarter. Is there a metagame in which you just want to just lose game 1 to "the very rare" Delver-decks?
I see 9 ways to interact with a Delver, I mean 7 turns is a lot.
So Delver of Secrets is a Legendary creature? Rare it is for a Delver deck not to have some more dudes/Delvers/reach (be it Bolt or DRS).Quote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
I'm with Lemnear. This list is a train wreck.
(Sent from my phone, please ignore typos and grammar errors)
I mean, we can take a closer look and sure see the 3 Swords, 2 SFM into xyz, 2 Mindscensors for blocking, etc. but for my taste the deck has to pass the SFM/Delver/Tarmogoyf-test to be compeditive as an aggro-subtype (in a prison-shell, of course) and I just can't see more than a white land-destruction attempt aiming at greedy manabases and few to zero basics in opponents deck to just demolish slow control decks with an actual regular D&T approach in the side. As mentioned before: I'm not sure a metagame with just a few SFM/Delver/Tarmogoyf but a whole lot of greedy 3c/4c control existsQuote:
Originally Posted by HammafistRoob
"I'm not sure a metagame with just a few SFM/Delver/Tarmogoyf but a whole lot of greedy 3c/4c control exists"
How best to construct this sort of deck hinges fundamentally on this question. Against a Delver deck, you would do well to include a full set of Swords, and also something like 3 copies of Path to Exile. After all, Path has no drawback against Delver decks. Likewise, Ghost Quarter is Just Another Strip Mine against most Delver decks.
Some cards -- Thalia, Mother of Runes, SFM, and even Arbiter -- have reasonable application against both Delver decks and slower decks. For the most part, though, how best to configure this really does depend on what metagame you are expecting.
I ran the list posted from Channel Fireball last night at my local Legacy.
Here are my notes:
Spirit of the Lab: Was very good. As a 3/1 his damage clock was very good. Ported an opponents blue source on upkeep, he brainstorm in response. vialed: SoL allows him to draw one and forces him to put 2 back and he skips drawing a card on his draw step. Against Shardless, I play SoL the turn before the last counter comes off ancestral visions.
Leonin Arbiter: This guy was pretty good, but had some mixed feeling about him late game. He's was very strong, often setting my opponents back 2 turns. I won games on the play just by running him out turn 2 because my opponent kept a hand full of fetches. He felt like a bad top deck late game.
Ghost Quarter: Having 8 wastelands in addition to 4 ports was excessive. Vs the BUG color opponents GQ was functionally the same as a wasteland. I wouldn't run 4 going forward, but I've kept 2.
Veteran Armorer: This guy is a champ post board, and i would consider running 2 just to see him more often. His CC is low enough that he can be vialed in early enough. He beats Golgari Charm, Zealous Persecution, Sulfur Elemental, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague. He was bad against Massacre.
The biggest issue of the deck was the lack of evasion. The deck had all the control in the world. SoL was the best beater in the deck, but it needs to be followed up with other (3 power) threats.
I've played around with the Arbiter / Ghost Quarter idea a bit now too so I'll share some thoughts. I played a list with 4 Arbiter, 3 GQ, 2 Mindcensor and the 4th STP, 2 Avenger , and a 3rd SFM over the 4 Spirits.
Ghost Quarter - Barely has any drawback at all, it's not even necessary to have Arbiter out against a lot of decks. All the Delver decks & Shardless are basically cold to it, and even if they bring out a basic (Shardless runs a couple) you can just nuke that if the time is right. It is worth noting that it actually becomes feasible to cut Miracles off W completely by GQ-ing their basic plains once you see it; they only run 2, so once one is gone locking them off Entreat suddenly isn't so hard. However, you need the Arbiter to stop / tax their fetches too so they don't just crack for Tundra when they are ready for the Entreat.
Leonin Arbiter - Not a bad little dude, actually pretty great vs the Delver decks as they are so light on land. Not as effective vs Miracles because they can just crack and pay EOT. 2/2 is slightly underwhelming, but at least its not x/1.
Mindcensor - Hated it (surprise surprise...). Unnecessary for land-pressure as it just comes down wayyy too late. I'd rather have 3 Mangara to actually crush their manabase over the long game.
It seems to me that the list is indeed a stab at Anti-Miracles.dec (although I'd be playing Teeg if I really wanted to beat them every game). I have no idea how he had such success with only 3 STP. Path out of the board, as I have been saying for a while, is insane vs Delver (and most Goyf decks) with or without Arbiters. Spirit seems like it would be nice vs Miracles, but there isn't enough of it in my meta to skew that heavily on what we can all say is a mediocre dude otherwise.
Moving forward, I'm actually keeping 2 of the GQs in the main, even without Arbiter. Moar wasteland is just awesome, especially when people fetch out their basics first against us anyway ;)
Hey all, I managed to qualify for the SCG Invy next weekend and am trying to figure out my D&T list. I am not playing the ghost quarter package because I don't have any experience with it yet, and don't like overhauling right before a big event.
For reference my current list is still this: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65916
I am thinking about switching that 3rd Serra Avenger to either a Council's Judgment or Spirit of the Labyrinth. I'm thinking the Invitational is probably the best event possible for Spirit (lots of Brainstorm decks), though I still haven't been overly impressed with the card in the few local events I've tried it out. As for Council's, it seems great against all the fair decks, but might be too much of a liability against unfair matchups (in addition to the 4 Swords main).
At the least, I am thinking to change the sideboard Holy Light and Celestial Flares into Council's Judgments (better answers to TNN). I could possibly also shave down to 1 Oblivion Ring after making this switch? That could free up a slot for another Wilt Leaf Liege or something.
Any feedback on my list as I prepare for this event would be amazing as I've been too busy lately to test many games with these new/fairly new cards.
I can't see any possible reason to have more than 1 Oblivion Ring any more. Since you have the Tutors, 1 Ring in the SB makes sense, and I think I like the idea of a Spirit of the Lab somewhere in the 75 too, though I prefer the SB for this card also. I think I like Council's Judgement, so I might go 1 in the main and 1 or 2 in the board if you already got them. It gets complicated, but I would cut cataclysm if you are including a Spirit or two. Spirits are actually pretty good against Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by cursecatcher
I picked up 2 Councils Judgement. Having trouble deciding on numbers. I think one main deck is correct and 1 SB... Thoughts? I love that this can hit a batterskull and your opponent can't bounce in response your vote.
I'm not too sure about the MD Judgement. It looks like a solid removal spell on paper, but we have no data on it. I'm hesitant about including it to the MD until some playtesting is done.Quote:
Originally Posted by cursecatcher
I would definitely keep the 3rd Serra Avenger. Personally, I'm not a fan of Mindcensors since they're easily the weakest link in the deck. I'm running a 4th Flickerwisp instead (SO good) and a 3rd Crusader. He just hits like a truck with equipment and you must expect tons of BUG Delver (and Miracles, for the matter, since they're the two most-played decks in the current metagame) - and Crusader flat-out destroys BUG if they can't get TNN or Liliana online.
2 O-Rings are excessive, even 1 O-Ring is questionable now with Judgement. Are you really expecting that much Sneak & Show to warrant its inclusion? Yes, it's a popular Invitational choice because you can be drooling idiot with no format knowledge and still do well with it, but it's one of our best match-ups. I run the standard 3 Karakas, but neither Mangara nor O-Ring - and I still do extremely well against it, simply because we attack them from so many angles.
I would definitely cut the Holy Light and Celestial Flare for Judgements. Whether or not a 3rd copy is worth it is hard to say without data.
I also miss Pithing Needle in your board.
My list for reference
I'll definitely cut the two Cataclysms for Judgement once it's released. It was always an on/off card for me as it continues to fail to impress me - either the board state is unfavorable after nuking the board, I'm manascrewed or it eats a Force of Will. Chances are quite likely that I'm going to replace the Runed Halo with a 3rd Judgement if it performs well. The only weak spot my current build has is dealing with troublesome permanents permanently and Judgement closes this hole. Otherwise, I'm already extremely pleased with this build and don't see any reason to change things otherwise.
Well yeah. It is one of the quasi-hidden effects of this card. Because it is actual spot removal that does not actually target - to my knowledge there has never been a card or a mechanic capable of this in the past - the opponent will have to use their Jitte counters, or activate Aether Vial, or unsummon their own Batterskull, or use Mom for protection before they know what you are aiming at.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
Hey I'm relatively new to this deck and have been jamming games on cockatrice for the past week while I wait for the deck to arrive in the mail. Now I know none of these match ups are particularly common, besides the mirror but I've only played that once or twice, but I've been running into a lot of zoo and maverick. Basically, from my understanding thus far these matches basically come down to who gets jitte active first and every play from both sides has been trying to force through their jitte. Now I have yet to lose any of the matches against these opponents but it feels like I'm barely squeaking out wins each time. It's been annoying trying to win the equipment war against qasali pridemage decks without an active mom and revoker. I've added and manriki gusari to my sideboard recently which has helped some but these match ups feel extremely close every time, specifically maverick, though zoo seems to have a better lategame with knight of the reliquary and tarmogoyfs. I was wondering if anyone had some advice for these particular match ups, mainly because maverick and D&T are fairly popular at my lgs. (I'm talking about zoo decks that closely resemble maverick with wild nacatl btw).
If you run Mirran Crusaders, they can be quite good, a lot of Maverick is green and the first strike blocks well when you're behind. He's also great when you start pushing him in with MoR; I find the Maverick match is often about unblockable damage spikes with Mother of Runes backup, preferably with Haste from Vial. Other than the all important Mother of Runes mirror (close 2nd to the Jitte Race), of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Souleater734
Flickerwisp is amazing for generating tempo in the dmg races too.
Running Sword of Light and Shadow can be good to give your guys pro-W; searchable with SFM obv and blanks their only removal colour. Or War and Peace for the true Zoo match; get that on a Crusader and there should be no way you can loose ;).
Pridemage is annoying and I'd always name with with Revoker, unless you are about to lose to Jitte or something.
Disenchants out of the sideboard are great; I run 2 now and they are awesome for the equipment mirrors. Celestial Flare is good too if you are running it, things can be very Voltron in the late game. And any more removal effects that you may be running; Path, O-Ring, our new shiny friend Council's Judgement... my preference is on Path since its a 1cmc removal that can hit Mother of Runes (which is a must-kill) T1. Its not like we're going to be locking much out with Thalia, anyway... She comes out for the most part, sometimes its nice to keep 1 for First Strike and Karakas blocking tricks.
Thanks, I run manriki-gusari for stuff like death/stoneblade but it's weaker against pridemage. I run sunlance in the board as a hedge against delver but path is probably better since delver decks don't run basics, so I can see that helping in the mu a lot. Generally I've been using flickerwisp on lands in conjunction with ports to try to keep them off knight of the reliquary mana. My equipment package is sword of fire/ice jitte batterskull and the manriki-gusari in the board but I might consider including light and shadow somewhere in the 75, thanks again for the advice.
Dave Shiels playing on scg stream with ghost quarter
edit: he's made top 8
... In the Sideboard, it seems.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tormod
Robert Sullivan also Top8'd with 2x Council's Judgment in the board.
Good weekend for the little white dudes.
You obviously haven't played legacy long enough. Tell me something I don't know.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy
It look's like someone is at top at SCG with a single ghost quarter that i mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dcosiem
Played it long enough to realize spirit of the labyrinth is a bad card... played it long enough to realize death and taxes runs FOUR thalia's... I was fairly certain my original reply to your message did tell you several things you weren't aware of. Enjoy your single ghost quarter.
Look at how nice that spirit played by David was shutting down those elvish visionaries from those draws to give Mirran card advantage.Quote:
Originally Posted by raikenxy