[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

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Originally Posted by Barook

I just noticed that HoneyT's list doesn't run Stronghold. That seems rather odd, especially while running Titan. What's the reason for that?

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I asked him the same thing, he answered me this:

"Recurring Nightmare in this deck is a non-tutorable enchantment that does nothing on its own and increases your vulnerability to graveyard hate unnecessarily. That's also why I play Kessig Wolf Run as opposed to Volrath's Stronghold. They do the same job of winning the game. Wolf Run simply does it faster and more efficiently without being further exposed to graveyard hate. In short, stay away from Recurring Nightmare outside of Rector lists. "

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Originally Posted by Barook

I just noticed that HoneyT's list doesn't run Stronghold. That seems rather odd, especially while running Titan. What's the reason for that?

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The deck can only realistically support 2 colorless lands and Wolf Run is better.

Don't get me wrong, Stronghold is powerful and provides a source of inevitability in the late game. However, Wolf Run provides that same inevitability by turning all your creatures into fireballs. It's less durdle-y and closes the game out much faster and does so without being further exposed to graveyard hate.

Well, despite selling my collection a week or so ago to pay for bills, I'm still addicted to this archetype and will probably be slowly but surely building it again.

This time however, I'm going straight for Junk over BUG and thinking of incorporating either Iname, Death Aspect or Buried Alive to super-charge the deck with Bloodghast when I need to be the aggro (i.e. combo, Miracles, possibly mirror).

A list I've been toying around with today:

60 Main
4 Veteran Explorer
3 Deathrite Shaman
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sakura Tribe-Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Primeval Titan
1 Karmic Guide
1 Yosei, the Morning Star
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Diabolic Intent
1 Buried Alive
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Council's Judgment
4 Verdant Catacomb
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
2 Swamp
2 Forest
2 Plains
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold

15 Sideboard
4 Thoughtseize
3 Bloodghast
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Council's Judgment
3 Toxic Deluge

I start with Bloodghasts in the side simply because they don't provide any value at all on their own. Also debating on Yosei v. Kokusho (combo hates having to race against a life advantage, but Miracles hates being locked out of mana, or so I imagine) and Iname, District Attorney v. Buried Alive (body v. speed).

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Originally Posted by Qweerios

I compiled my results for the last weekly tournaments I attended in which I took two 1st place using Junk Pod:

2-0 vs. Aggro Loam
1-2 vs. BUG Pod
2-1 vs. Oops all Spells
2-1 vs. Punishing Jund

2-0 vs. Nic Fit
2-1 vs. Deathblade
2-0 vs. Team America

I used the same list I posted a few pages back with the same SB. I played 4 DRS, 3 Explorers, and no BoP. Sigarda (with and without Jitte) won almost every single game... Entomber Exarch saw some play but is still quite weak. I think I will replace him with either a 22nd land or the 4th explorer as I don't really need three 4-drops to gloom over my starting hand and both my 5-drops are accessible through GSZ.

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You could consider Timbermare to replace Entomber Exarch ?

Hello,

I m not an expert player of the deck. I was wondering what was your gameplan against Cloudpost ? Any Sideboard card that could be good against them ?

Thanks

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Originally Posted by Jizz

Hello,

I m not an expert player of the deck. I was wondering what was your gameplan against Cloudpost ? Any Sideboard card that could be good against them ?

Thanks

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Usually you just lose, honestly. I've played the matchup a couple times with Scape and it is really really bad. Even the scapeshift kill is hard to pull off since they can Crop Rotate for Glacial Chasm with triggers on the stack and then you get to sit there until you get space monstered out of the game. One of the strengths of Nic Fit is that you get to go bigger than your opponent and outclass their cards. 12-post is one of the few decks that gets to do that to us. One does not simply outclass a hardcast Emrakul. Killing them the fair way is probably harder for us than it is for the fair decks that they already beat. We do not have Wasteland to buy time, we do not have 1-mana 3/2s, what we have is a bunch of 1/1s and some 4- and 5-drops that are too slow to matter to the deck. I would not bother sideboarding for this matchup unless you inhabit a strange metagame (in which case you should probably play something else) or you decide to try out that Blood Moon tech that was mentioned a few pages ago.

@Jizz - What version are you playing? I play the pfire version and I run 2 SB blood moons to deal with my Lands matchup. I assume 12 post would be similar. I really only bring them in as a "nuclear" type card because it turns off the groves and the wolf run as well as a fair amount of the rest of the lands. I actually only run 6 basics.

If you are forced to exist within a 12-post heavy metagame, I would recommend siding 3-4 -heavy- land hate options. I wouldn't bother with Blood Moon vs them -- it's much more effective against Lands, whereas more powerful options like Sowing Salt, for example, isn't very good against Lands at all but is a knockout vs 12post. From the Ashes is another hard-hitting option.

Basically, if you want to effectively defeat 12post, you need to buckle down and dedicate a lot of slots to serious land hate. To be fair, Nic Fit -can- do this. The problem is that these slots are basically dead against everything else, and you need to eat up 3-5 total slots with them to reliably win the matchup, which makes your other matchups very weak.

Had another small tourney at Saturday with good results
Beat miracles in 1. Yes, 1. 40 minutes. Highlights included having a Thragtusk in play three times (twice after a terminus). Me digging for a creature to sac to a diabolic intent for a deed to kill a miracled entreat for 7. Won by decaying a token while he attacked with 2 of the 3 angels, one left back to block a thrun.

Beat B/G Storm (forget the name) in 3.
Game 1. We both mull to 5. I don't see a 2nd land until turn 3 or 4. I get stormed out.
Game 2. I keep a hand with disruption and win fairly easily.
Game 3. I have a decent hand with a therapy but no Mindbreak. He attempts to go off turn one with a summoner's pact and whiffs.

Beat U/R omni-tell
Game 1. Opponent gets stuck on land while I execute the 1/1 beats with a canonist.
Game 2. I get blood mooned and then FSMed.
Game 3. I get a rector out...he decides to echoing truth it back to my hand. I replay it. He blood moons me again. and FSM's me....and humility comes out. Humility for me vs 5 land and a blood moon for him. He hard casts Omni. and we play cripple fight for a while. I get a top in play and end up getting some 1/1's then batterskull in play and win.

Drew with Reanimator.

Lost to Mud in top 4.
Blew the board a couple of times but he recovered.
2nd game: On the play I name chalice of the void. He rips....a chalice for one. I never recover.

I play a Wasteless control deck that isn't Miracle and the match up vs Cloudpost is as bad as yours. Thanks for your tips. I ended up adding Ruination to my sideboard, even though I play few basics. Bloodmoon can be answered by both Lands and Cloudpost (repeal, decay, etc..). Sowing salt is also a nice one.

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Originally Posted by Jizz

I play a Wasteless control deck that isn't Miracle and the match up vs Cloudpost is as bad as yours. Thanks for your tips. I ended up adding Ruination to my sideboard, even though I play few basics. Bloodmoon can be answered by both Lands and Cloudpost (repeal, decay, etc..)

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It somewhat depends on the deck in general. Blood Moon is answerable, yes. But it usually makes the opposing deck jump through a few hoops in order to answer it. It buys at least a couple of turns, in which time you may be able to slam the door. This is a little easier with Nic Fit than most control decks, but your mileage may vary. If you can effectively pressure (either by life total, deck control [slaughter games, etc], counter-control [venser/karakas lock once moon is solved], or etc) the opponent while they durdle trying to answer the Moon, it's good enough.

If you're not confidant in your ability to do this, From the Ashes / Ruination is your best bet. You just have to try to play around it. Maybe add a couple of mana rocks to help with losing your own lands? It's not like control decks are ever opposed to mana sources.

If your main concern is 12-post then blood moon is not the absolute best card to use. I for some reason have multiple lands players (typically 2-4) at any given weekly (usually about 20-25 players) and I believe blood moon is more effective at that match-up. I also bring it in against any deck packing the depths combo as my deck literally has now answer to that aside from soaking the hit and winning on the crack back.

I think that blood moon can be more applicable than some of the other options (the land destruction spells) but to be honest I havent run any since I used to play tsunami in my board back when I played GB only version.

@jizz how many basics are you playing?

Hey jbone, I tried a variant of your list at the LGS and found it to be a lot of fun: much more explosive/aggressive than the more grindy punishing fit list I usually run. I went 3-1, losing to elves in 3 games. Most of my problem is lack of experience, but I'm wondering if there are particular tools/strategies you've found to be useful against elves? Do you wish for ethersworn canonist? Are surgical extractions ever good against elves? What else might be useful? (anyone is welcome to chime in, as indicated in the title the list is a BGW list that runs stoneforge, a living wish package, and no rector or pod)

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Originally Posted by benofzongo

Hey jbone, I tried a variant of your list at the LGS and found it to be a lot of fun: much more explosive/aggressive than the more grindy punishing fit list I usually run. I went 3-1, losing to elves in 3 games. Most of my problem is lack of experience, but I'm wondering if there are particular tools/strategies you've found to be useful against elves? Do you wish for ethersworn canonist? Are surgical extractions ever good against elves? What else might be useful? (anyone is welcome to chime in, as indicated in the title the list is a BGW list that runs stoneforge, a living wish package, and no rector or pod)

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Ari had a good post about the matchup vs elves.
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post824529

my take: Humility and Batterskull is very good vs. Elves. Deeds and deluges are awesome. Plague is reasonable. Canonist is a good wish target. I usually board in the revoker. Surgicals seem lousy vs. elves.

Haha, I realized my list is actually from jobdevries...just to give credit where due (jbone's has the rectors right?). Anyways, thanks for the tips.

My latest Rector list actually sports a positive Elves matchup for the first time amongst any of my Nic Fit decks, I think. All it took was (in my opinion) gross over-reacting:

maindeck things that interact with them:

3 Deed
1 Deluge
2 Swords
2 Decay
2 Judgment
1 Teeg (+3 Zenith)

sb:

2 Seize
2 Mindcensor
2 Canonist
1 Cranial Extraction
1 Plague
1 Rule of Law

That's 20 cards that interact with Elves, gentlemen. It takes having 20 goddamn cards before I feel like I actually have a good matchup there. Now admittedly very little of that is expressly -for- Elves....most of it is for other combo decks (or other fair decks) and Elves just gets caught in the middle. But still.

I have been thinking about a Non-pod BUG list for a few days. Does anybody have a list they have been playing? just trying to get a baseline for a rough decklist.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I have been thinking about a Non-pod BUG list for a few days. Does anybody have a list they have been playing? just trying to get a baseline for a rough decklist.

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Largely untested (I've been focusing on Rector mostly), but here's something to get you started thinking:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Baleful Strix
3 Eternal Witness
1 Shriekmaw
1 Aetherling

4 Cabal Therapy

4 Force of Will
4 Cryptic Command
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm

2 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave

3 Pernicious Deed
1 Future Sight

3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
2 Bayou
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Polluted Delta

::sb::
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Toxic Deluge
2 Glen Elendra Archmage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Pithing Needle
2 Flusterstorm
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thragtusk
1 Progenitor Mimic
1 Cranial Extraction

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I have been thinking about a Non-pod BUG list for a few days. Does anybody have a list they have been playing? just trying to get a baseline for a rough decklist.

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I'll try and post mine later tonight as well.

Heyooo

So, I've been looking at Nic Fit as a deck I'd be interested in tossing together, but nearly all of the lists of course employ various cute tricks and most of those cute tricks bore me. Does anyone have more of a straightforward trick-free "fair" build they wouldn't mind showing?

I play a punishing fire list that is as "trick free" as I can get it. I think the hard part is that in order to take advantage of the veteran explorer trigger you need to play smth like punishing fire or scapshift that takes advantage of having lands in play. OR you need to play larger costed cards (otherwise why waste space on ramp) which when compared to most legacy threats seem "cute".

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

nearly all of the lists of course employ various cute tricks and most of those cute tricks bore me. Does anyone have more of a straightforward trick-free "fair" build they wouldn't mind showing?

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Cute tricks bore you and straight forward not? :-P

Anyway, i think you should look into the JUND coloured versions of the deck:

Scapewish -> Pretty straight forward midrange combo deck that wins out of a single Scapeshift cast (along side Valakut, the molten pinnacle) that has various lines of play thru big creatures such as Thragtusk, Huntmaster of the fells or Primeval Titan and nasty sideboard cards such as Slaughter Games which are accesible with Burning Wish.

Punishing Fire Nic Fit -> Also JUND coloured and has a kind of grindy gameplay where cards like Punishing Fire, Abrupt Decay, Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed control the board and a big creature (like the ones mentioned) finishes the job.

JUNK Stoneforge -> Another pretty straight forward list is the JUNK coloured list from Jobdevries mentioned earlier. This list involves Stoneforge Mystic, Lingering Souls and Living Wish alongside the regular Nic Fit package to even ramp into an equipped Sigarda, Host of Herons

Here is a small piece writen by Arianrhod about the current directions of Nic Fit: Link

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I play a punishing fire list that is as "trick free" as I can get it. I think the hard part is that in order to take advantage of the veteran explorer trigger you need to play smth like punishing fire or scapshift that takes advantage of having lands in play. OR you need to play larger costed cards (otherwise why waste space on ramp) which when compared to most legacy threats seem "cute".

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I'm all a fan of neat effects and great synergies which is why I'm looking at this deck in the first place, but no matter the list I look at, the pinnacle of innovation as to how to burn that mana inevitably boils down to "Thragtusk" or some other piece of shit that's unnecessary and not as good as some other options. Either that or some roundabout combo with too many pieces that fails to itself more often than not. Scapshift is intriguing, but I like lists that can naturally burn the mana rather than lists that force themselves to burn the mana. For example BUG. Baleful Strix is essentially the perfect mana burner and card advantage.

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Originally Posted by iamajellydonut

I'm all a fan of neat effects and great synergies which is why I'm looking at this deck in the first place, but no matter the list I look at, the pinnacle of innovation as to how to burn that mana inevitably boils down to "Thragtusk" or some other piece of shit that's unnecessary and not as good as some other options. Either that or some roundabout combo with too many pieces that fails to itself more often than not. Scapshift is intriguing, but I like lists that can naturally burn the mana rather than lists that force themselves to burn the mana. For example BUG. Baleful Strix is essentially the perfect mana burner and card advantage.

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In that case you might be searching for a BUG Planeswalker version of Nic Fit. There is a list by McDarby, called the McDarby Special or Veteran Walkers. Shouldn't be hard to find on Google.

Also there was a list by Ralf in the BUG Control section a while ago: list
I tuned it a bit, but never tested it. I removed the GSZ creature package which you don't like (Thragtusk).

4 Veteran Explorer
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Eternal Witness
3 Baleful Strix
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Innocent Blood
4 Brainstorm
3 Negate
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Kiora, the Crashing Wave
1 Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Island
2 Swamp
3 Forest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Force of Will
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Engineered Plague
SB: 2 Duress
SB: 3 Carpet of Flowers

@Jellydonut: you probably want either BUG Walkers (I would squeeze in a copy of Future Sight), or some variety of a rockish white list -- Baneslayer and Sigarda are potent beatsticks.

You'll understand in time why Thragtusk has the slot that he does.

My punishing fire list has a GSZ "package" of vet, scooze, witness, thrun, huntmaster, tusk and prime time. Thats as small as I can reasonably make it. I also dont like the "toolbox" style of pod. I have always hovered on the edge of cutting ooze, huntmaster, and tusk but seem to every week find that they are surprisingly effective. I do know they seem terrible when you look at them in a vacuum but in actual game play they work out great.

My way of trying to build and play the pfire version is less of a nic fit deck that wants to have many options for all situations but of trying to assemble the same cards every game (liliana, deed and 1 threat usually) which is why I am interested in a BUG version. Running Deed + Liliy + fire means you are basically pre sideboarded against creature decks but at a terrible game 1 against most combo as well as U/w control decks. I still believe that of all the lists I have seen the fire list would match up the best at a large event like an SCG but I havent seen them. My meta is also starting to shift the dial back to combo decks. ( I saw multiple Omni show mirrors the last time) So it is either look into a heavier discard package and BUG version with some md Fow or set this deck on the back burner for a bit.

BTW, how do ppl on this thread feel about the Jeff Hoogland Brainstorm article?

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

My punishing fire list has a GSZ "package" of vet, scooze, witness, thrun, huntmaster, tusk and prime time. Thats as small as I can reasonably make it. I also dont like the "toolbox" style of pod. I have always hovered on the edge of cutting ooze, huntmaster, and tusk but seem to every week find that they are surprisingly effective. I do know they seem terrible when you look at them in a vacuum but in actual game play they work out great.

My way of trying to build and play the pfire version is less of a nic fit deck that wants to have many options for all situations but of trying to assemble the same cards every game (liliana, deed and 1 threat usually) which is why I am interested in a BUG version. Running Deed + Liliy + fire means you are basically pre sideboarded against creature decks but at a terrible game 1 against most combo as well as U/w control decks. I still believe that of all the lists I have seen the fire list would match up the best at a large event like an SCG but I havent seen them. My meta is also starting to shift the dial back to combo decks. ( I saw multiple Omni show mirrors the last time) So it is either look into a heavier discard package and BUG version with some md Fow or set this deck on the back burner for a bit.

BTW, how do ppl on this thread feel about the Jeff Hoogland Brainstorm article?

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Haven't seen it yet, going to go try to hunt it down now.

Edit -- Can't find it anywhere, can you link me?

http://themeadery.org/articles/leavi...odern-mistress

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

You'll understand in time why Thragtusk has the slot that he does.

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I don't mind Green Sun's Zenith. I actually love Green Sun's Zenith and find it to be one of the best cards of modern Legacy, but I find the powerplay of "big-efficient-green-get-there" to be completely unintuitive. Yes, I understand why Thragtusk is there. However, I also know why I don't want him. If the deciding factor between me winning or losing the game comes down to landing or not landing a Thragtusk, I am doing it wrong. There's no reason you can't have a gross amount of mana and still be able to spend it on a balanced breakfast.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

BTW, how do ppl on this thread feel about the Jeff Hoogland Brainstorm article?

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This conversation has no reason to be here. There are two existing threads for it. If you want to discuss it, bring it there.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-of-Brainstorm

The main idea behind Thragtusk is that it doesnt matter what you GSZ for as a finisher. By the time you are sunning for smth to win with the game is usually decided. In most fire lists you lock down the board to such an extent that winning with witness/veteran beats is acceptable. I understand where you are at because I also feel like paying 5 mana for a Tusk in Legacy is not where you want to be when you look at other more efficient cards. But it is a card that serves multiple purposes.

I think smth that might help us better brainstorm a list with you is could be "What do you WANT to be casting?". IF you want to be playing GSZ what do you want to be grabbing? IF you want to be playing Jace, WHAT do you want the shell around him to be?

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

http://themeadery.org/articles/leavi...odern-mistress

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Thanks.

I guess the problem that I have with his logic is that Brainstorm, by itself, is useless. We've talked about this at least briefly in this very thread in the past. Putting Brainstorm in most builds of Nic Fit simply isn't viable because of space concerns.

Consider that Brainstorm is card equity. You spend 1 card, put 2 back, and 3 draw: 3-for-3. Now, this is obviously metered by shuffle effects (virtual CA), by the power of putting back something you'll fetch for (Batterskull, entomb targets, etc), and so forth -- but, at the end of the day, Brainstorm is still just a cantrip. It's only as good as the cards that you draw.

In vintage, it's frequently (usually) correct to neglect to Force of Will Ancestral. If you have Misstep, that's fine, but it's widely regarded as a misplay to Force Recall. What are those three cards? Land, land, mox? Nice draw3.

Your average Delver deck has something like this for the core:

4 Delver
2 [1-drop creature]
4 [2-drop creature]

4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Lightning Bolt

That's THIRTY cards. Of these 30, only 6-10 actively win you the game. The rest is all "consistency." Yes, filtering and tutoring are important -- but to say that you simply can't compete because the blue decks are more consistent seems like a really poor call since so many of their cards are do nothings in the name of that consistency.

Delver typically runs 18 lands. They crutch on their cantrips to hit land drops, which in turn anti-tempos them. Sometimes they just get blown out by a wasteland on their 1-lander and die.

........

I guess that what I'm trying to say is this:

Sometimes, the blue deck will win because they're more consistent. Sometimes, they'll get Wastelanded and die. Sometimes, they'll bury you in virtual CA via shuffles and tutors. Sometimes, they'll draw a million cantrips and fail to actually find anything to kill you with.

Variance exists no matter what deck you're playing. All you're doing by playing Delver is shifting the variance from one axis to another.

I find the idea that you can't make nonblue decks as consistent/powerful as the blue ones somewhat offensive, personally, and I think that his view that legacy is bad because blue vs nonblue is somewhat childish when you consider that every goddamn format is that way.

I dunno. I used to have a lot of respect for Jeff. I still do, in a way. But ever since he went on a hot streak and became high-profile, the man's incessant whining and bitching gets on my nerves. This is the world we live in. Complaining about it won't make it go away. I bitched internally for a long time about Sneak and Show, and then I got sick enough of losing to it that I maindecked some Slaughter Games -- and hey, suddenly they're the ones who were afraid of playing me instead of the other way around. There's always an answer for everything. It just involves working hard enough to find it, and being willing enough to implement it.

I definitely didnt want to make this thread a ban brainstorm discussion. My question more was along the lines of Nic-fit is a (often) brainstorm/cantrip-less deck that can be VERY subject to variance so what ideas do we have to combat this. Obv we have arguably the 2 strongest non-blue consistency enablers which is SDT and GSZ. I feel that these can definitely provide enough of the 'cantrip' effect of seeing the cards we need to win each game but wanted to get some "nic-fit" centered thoughts on his article. Sorry Jellydonut if thats what you thought was the intent.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I definitely didnt want to make this thread a ban brainstorm discussion. My question more was along the lines of Nic-fit is a (often) brainstorm/cantrip-less deck that can be VERY subject to variance so what ideas do we have to combat this. Obv we have arguably the 2 strongest non-blue consistency enablers which is SDT and GSZ. I feel that these can definitely provide enough of the 'cantrip' effect of seeing the cards we need to win each game but wanted to get some "nic-fit" centered thoughts on his article. Sorry Jellydonut if thats what you thought was the intent.

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I figured that's where you were going, but I'm not afraid to chime in my 2c on most topics. I think everyone here is aware of my thoughts on how the Nic Fit thread is kind of its own community inside of Source.

As you mentioned, we do these things:

1) Top
2) Zenith

Some also do these:

3) Jace (and other planeswalkers)
4) 2-for-1 ++ based creatures and cards
5) Actual card advantage (why cantrip when you can just draw all of them): see also Future Sight
6) Wish boards [Burning, Living; maybe Cunning?]

Finally, we have one more thing that I want to talk about a bit more:

7) Redundancy of power

Consider Rector's 5-drops and 6-drops.

2 Baneslayer
1 Sigarda
1 Thragtusk
1 Scuttling Doom Engine
1 Sun Titan
3 Green Sun's Zenith*wildcard
3 Sensei's Top

That's 12 cards that are haymakers against most decks. They're all slightly different in their applications and purposes, but they're all win conditions or they all find win conditions.

Compare to UWR Delver

1 Batterskull
4 Stoneforge
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

That's 13 cards....of which 4 are squires and 8 are useless without shuffles. Exactly 1 of these 13 cards is an actual threat. The tradeoff is mana efficiency. UWR's lone Batterskull vs Rector's 6 five/six drops [not counting Zeniths/Tops].

The instability from Nic Fit's side comes from the ramp engines. If our ramp doesn't happen, then the 1-of Batterskull is going to be found and going to come down a lot quicker than a Baneslayer will. This is why the single greatest thing that could ever happen for Nic Fit would be a modal ramp spell. IE, if Golgari Charm had Rampant Growth as a mode. Right now, all of the ramp options are fairly underwhelming by themselves. Ponder is a lot more useful on turn 10 than a Wood Elves is -- despite the fact that Wood Elves can actually win a game while Ponder technically can't.

I'm not sure how much sense that actually made. I'll think about it for a little while and then if people are confused I'll rephrase.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

I definitely didnt want to make this thread a ban brainstorm discussion. My question more was along the lines of Nic-fit is a (often) brainstorm/cantrip-less deck that can be VERY subject to variance so what ideas do we have to combat this. Obv we have arguably the 2 strongest non-blue consistency enablers which is SDT and GSZ. I feel that these can definitely provide enough of the 'cantrip' effect of seeing the cards we need to win each game but wanted to get some "nic-fit" centered thoughts on his article. Sorry Jellydonut if thats what you thought was the intent.

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That is an understandable discussion. It's just that when you brought up the article it made me scared.

Anyway, I think the reason Brainstorm typically isn't associated with Nic Fit is simply because Nic Fit doesn't as commonly run blue. I have limited experience with Nic Fit itself, but I have played against it and one of my biggest fears and why I'm asking these questions about "is fattie the best route" is because it's easy to get your hand sandbagged by shit. If you get a fistful of land and Veteran Explorer, it doesn't matter if you Green Sun's Zenith for Progenitus. You're still pretty boned. The deck as it stands has a lot of cards that lean on other cards to keep them not shitty. Of course, Brainstorm being capped at 4x doesn't mean your hands are cured, but it still makes a world of a difference. Even for minor nuisances that are true of many decks like naturally opening with Dryad Arbor in your hand. You're effectively short a card. It's not a "worse" card or "well, I wish I had not drawn this but...". A Dryad Arbor in your hand is a completely dead card. In an age where one card can often be the difference between winning and losing, Brainstorm works wonders.

Here's what I was thinking for a list. I'm at work (I have more spare time here than I do at home) which means I don't have any of my existing stuff on-hand, but here's what I was thinking for a Nic Fit-esque list. It's largely based off of an existing list I'm doing with Nic Fit stuff crammed in for a draft. Probably the first thing you'll notice is that Veteran Explorer is not maxed. Reason being that I want it to be an option rather than something closer to a requirement. I understand that the deck doesn't necessarily "require" Veteran Explorer, but I do know that the deck is a whole hell of a lot worse when one doesn't resolve and die. So, without further adieu, the amalgamation from memory and theory...

23xLand
1xCity of Traitors
1xCreeping Tar Pit

16xCreatures
2xDark Confidant
1xTarmogoyf
2xVeteran Explorer
3xBaleful Strix
4xDeathrite Shaman
1xGaddock Teeg
3xSuper Secret Tech

22xOther Spells
4xBrainstorm
1xJace, the Mind Sculptor
2xCabal Therapy
3xLiliana of the Veil
4xThoughtseize
1xGarruk Wildspeaker
2xGreen Sun's Zenith
1xSylvan Library
3xAbrupt Decay


It's a very rough list. Much of what would be considered "core", including Force of Wills, are missing. Vendilion Clique, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, one Inquisition of Kozilek, a few Spell Pierces, and maybe Disfigures are the top "would like to haves". Also Dryad Arbor, but I feel that the Arbor is more a reflex of "I have GSZ, therefore" than an actual necessity. Otherwise, the list is pretty close to what I would like to see.

@Arianrhod I have some thoughts on the ramp side of things as well. I'll try to post smth about that tonight

@Jellydonut - That list looks interesting but some card choices that stand out to me-
- City of traitors over Ancient Tomb seems odd, one of the strongest plays you could do would be turn 1 vet into cabal or deathrite into sol land. If you want to maximize the turn 2 Jace, Garruk or GSZ (and those would be even more strong off the double cabal line as you clear the way to drop the walker) the life is going to be less important than the fact that you might have to lose a land. If this is the type of opening you really want I would also go up to 3 sol lands prob in a 2/1 config.
- I know you want vet as an option but one of the main benefits of this archtype is the cabal/vet interaction which in this case seems smth you would like to maximize in order to get the 4 mana turn 2 or 3 in wich case you can can a drop and another discard or bstorm effect.
- I think instead of the single goyf you would get more milage out of a scavenging ooze in the 2 spot. Goyf for 3 mana off a gsz is much less interesting than at 2.
- I would up your Jace count. with your ability to dump a bunch of dorks onto the board to protect a Jace I think we defiantely would want to have more than 1. If you were thinking of it more as a Fact or fiction with additional upside thats fine. But this list seems to me to be smth where you want 3.
- I would replace sylvan with confidant if that is the effect you want. The body is good if you go on the aggro plan, you have sac outlets for it, and it can chump for your walkers if need be.

I have no idea how this deck plays out so those are some thoughts on the rough list.

I'm pretty much a noob with this deck, but I think that besides the Explorer/Therapy interaction, the other "core" way the deck exploits ramping is with pernicious deed: a card that is completely bonkers because our permanents are high cmc. That's why usually you don't see much in the way of confidants or goyfs in this deck, and also why Donut's list looks more like a "Big BUG" midrange deck to me than nic fit. If you dump deed and curve out at 4 cmc, I'm wondering if it makes more sense to lean on things like deathrite for your ramp (edit: which I guess you are doing already...reading ftw)...although I did once try out a BG nic fit deck that topped out with obliterators and abyssal persecutors at 4 cmc (it wasn't very good, but it was certainly playable), so what do I know.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

- City of traitors over Ancient Tomb seems odd, one of the strongest plays you could do would be turn 1 vet into cabal or deathrite into sol land. If you want to maximize the turn 2 Jace, Garruk or GSZ (and those would be even more strong off the double cabal line as you clear the way to drop the walker) the life is going to be less important than the fact that you might have to lose a land. If this is the type of opening you really want I would also go up to 3 sol lands prob in a 2/1 config.

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It doesn't really matter City of Traitors vs. Ancient Tomb. I just instinctively chose City of Traitors out of old deck building habits. With excessive amounts of Garruks, the choice is relevant which is where the habit was formed. Good ol' Death Cloud. Anyway, without (more) Garruks, the choice doesn't really matter as much, but I still choose City of Traitors. Four life is four life. Or more. And, as is true of many decks, the Sol Land doesn't need to stick around. Two turns with a pseudo-Lotus is usually more than enough.

As to the count of City of Traitors, it's the same reasoning as the low count of Veteran Explorer. Options. The deck can run without City of Traitors just fine, but does serious work when it does see a Sol Land. Conversely, if you see more than one at any time ever, you're gonna have a bad time. Same with Jace here. Despite being "steal your wife" good, the plan had a blue minority and significant basics, I wasn't sure of how consistently I could drop Jace. Deathrite Shaman is 4x. Thoughtseize is 4x. Brainstorm, Liliana, Abrupt Decay, Strix etc. The list has a decent core, but between GSZ and enough dig it also has about a great amount of options.

Unfortunately, all this is kind of moot. I ground out the concept yesterday both against friends and pubs on the great program of shit. It was bad. Not awful like "oh my god I can't believe this junk" and the plan did work a good amount of the time, but as I cleaned up the list I just kept wanting to cut Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy. As cute as they are and as fun as they can be, stuff like Ponder and more "oompf" just make for a better deck. One exceptionally fun thing I did try was maxed out Explorer/Therapy with 3xGitaxian Probe, 4xBrainstorm, and 4xPonder. Holy fucking hell was it fun, but with so many cards dedicated to dig and tricks it didn't have enough options to actually win.

Aaanyway, thanks for you guys' time and insight. Back to my standard BUG+GSZ brewing. At least it was cool to work on something else for a bit and it gave me an excuse to use Baleful Strix

This is going to be delving into theoretical territory, for which I apologize in advanced. However, I think it's an illuminating topic and needs some exploration. As always, this will be in specific examination of / as applies to Nic Fit -- other decks might derive some value from the discussion, but Nic Fit's unique mana production capabilities allow for us to take better advantage of a variety of cards that are too expensive for the average deck.

What is stronger: draw or tutor?

I think that, with regards to the Brainstorm debate, this is the real question / the real sticking point wherein I have a problem with Brainstorm.

I'll be using Vintage examples here, since Brainstorm is a "strictly worse" Ancestral Recall except in decks like Oath of Druids, Reanimator, and suchlike.

Ancestral Recall draws 3 cards for a single blue mana at instant speed.
vs
Demonic Tutor searches for 1 card for 1B at sorcery speed.

I will make a series of assertions:

-) Recall is better for tempo decks, because they have less mana to blow on more expensive options.
-) DTutor is better for "ramp" (big blue, storm) decks, because it allows you to search for exactly the card you want at the cost of it being more expensive.
-) Recall is better for decks with a lot of 1-for-1s, since it lets them refill over their opponent.
-) DTutor is better for decks with a lot of x-for-1s, since you'll already be up in CA/vCA and can search for something to hammer the coffin.

Let's extrapolate.

In a world in which both Recall and DTutor are legal in legacy, which would we run? (Note: the correct answer is likely BUG with both, but let's assume you can only run one or the other in the interests for fairness)

Recall draws 3 cards. The contents of these cards are likely random (if we have Recall, we probably only run a singleton Top). If you're being pressured by a Mongoose or a Delver, you need these 3 cards to be either an answer or business. It's safe to assume that you have a fair amount of lands (5-7), a lowish life total (8-12), and the opponent is running low on resources (probably already had to Force / Daze / etc problem cards).

This is variance. The 3 cards you draw with this Recall will likely make the game, because afterwards the Delver player will likely have interaction again. Or maybe he just has a pair of Bolts and you're dead next turn. You could draw land, Vet, Therapy. You could draw StP, Decay, Baneslayer. You could draw a Thragtusk, or a Zenith. You could draw into another Recall and chain them, but then be short on mana to cast something that actually matters. It's anyone's guess. You are at the mercy of your deck -- Recall is, after all, only as strong as the cards in your deck that you are drawing.

DTutor searches for exactly the card you want at any point. Losing to Delver? Search for Decay. Losing to mana screw? It can be a rampant growth. Your opponent just tutored Batterskull with SFM? It can be a Cabal Therapy.

This is skill testing. Your decision about what to Tutor at any given point in the game will shape how the game plays out. In Vintage, you have complete control of the game when DTutor resolves. You can choose to get business and be aggressive (Tinker, Will, etc), or you can be defensive and get protection (FoW, Drain, Flusterstorm, etc). It all depends on the board state, your hand, your opponent's deck, your opponent, and how you want the game to be shaped.

I'll go a level deeper.

I have argued that Demonic Tutor is a more powerful card than Ancestral Recall, and I will extrapolate from this that the correct way to solve Brainstorm matchups in legacy is to run more Tutors.

Now, what the problem with Tutors, other than that they are often banned (Demonic, Vampiric, Mystical, and Imperial Seal are all nixed)?

They add manacosts to things, and you are essentially trading card advantage for card quality -- ie, if you DTutor for Cabal Therapy to nab your opponent's Batterskull, you've spent 2 cards to answer 1 card: (Tutor + Therapy) vs (Batterskull). Your opponent is left with a squire in play.

Incidentally, this is why Careful Study and Faithless Looting are horrid cards in all circumstances where they aren't being abused (Reanimator, Dredge). You're trading card advantage for 2 random cards. Where Recall is a +2, Study is a -1. The vaunted Brainstorm is only a 0, before you factor in vCA.

So in order for Tutors to be worth it (ignoring the mana problem for now), what you are tutoring for either has to keep you in the game, or it has to put you ahead somehow. If you DTutor for a Deed to wrath your opponent's 2x Delver 1x Mongoose board, you're +1 on the deal: (DTutor + Deed) vs (Delver + Delver + Goose). You're also not dying next turn. If you DTutor for, say, an Elspeth Knight-Errant on an open board, you're at parity: (DTutor + Elspeth) vs (Soldier token + ongoing threat).

The problem with this last example is one of mana efficiency. Say your opponent untaps and rips a Pulse off the top, nuking Elspeth. You spent 6 mana for a 1/1 + one of your opponent's Maelstrom Pulses. You're technically still at 0 CA on the deal, and you're left with a miniscule amount of board state, but you also traded 6 mana spent for 3 mana spent. I believe this is the reason that Tutors are rarely seen in legacy, despite a number of them being legal. It's easy to Tutor something up, but it's arguably even easier to answer whatever is Tutored, either via a counterspell (-1) or a removal spell (also -1, unless it's a walker, in which 0).

Whatever you Tutor for, therefore, must be resilient and threatening. This is why Sigarda is perhaps the single most devastating Zenith target in all of Nic Fit if not all of Magic. She's damn near invincible once she's in play. Terminus is the only commonly played card that she loses to. Your opponent can't just go Swords it and achieve parity: (Zenith + Sigarda) vs (StP + 5 life=1.67Time).

Consider another example: Future Sight. If you Tutor up and slam Future Sight, you might be lucky enough to have something cheap to play off the top, or possibly a land. Let's assume you don't: (Tutor + Future) vs (nothing) = -2. You've spent 2 cards and failed to impact the game state. However, if you untap with an active Future Sight, you're probably going to be able to play on average 3 or 4 extra cards off the top. After -one- turn of untapping with a Future Sight, you're up to at least +2 on the deal. And it only goes further nuts from there. Yeah it could get Pulsed or CJ'd or some such, but that's an unlikely turn of events if we're being honest. That class of card isn't commonly played as more than a 1- or 2-of, and they'll have enough other things that they'll need to use them on that they may hesitate with something like Future Sight.

Now, let's consider the Tutors themselves. Of this entire class of card, here they are:

Topdeck Tutors
Enlightened Tutor
Worldly Tutor
Personal Tutor
Cruel Tutor
Liliana Vess

To-Hand Tutors
Diabolic Intent
Infernal Tutor
Grim Tutor
Idyllic Tutor
Rhystic Tutor
Beseech the Queen
Night Dealings
Diabolic Tutor
Demonic Collusion
Diabolic Revelation
Rune-Scarred Demon

There are a variety of other, lesser tutors (like all of the Transmute cards) that I didn't deem worthy of any level of discussion.

The topdeck Tutors are an awkward class of card, and are usually only good enough if they are instant speed or if you have a Top in play. Of this class, Enlightened sees the most play as a means of fetching powerful sideboard bullets. Cruel Tutor is reasonable (3-drop Imperial Seal), but being a topdeck tutor, there is little if any reason to run it over Grim Tutor. Liliana Vess is the most reasonable option, since she can effectively double tutor if left to her own devices. However, I view the class of topdeck tutors not sufficient for their desired purpose.

Diabolic Intent is a card that we have played to varying levels of success in varying builds of Nic Fit. The problem with Intent is that it requires a sacrifice, which can sometimes be awkward even for Nic Fit. That being said, Intent is definitely the most powerful tutoring option, even if it has perhaps the steepest drawback. Not counting the sacrifice, it is actual Demonic Tutor.

Infernal Tutor sees a lot of play in Storm decks, where it combos with Lion's Eye Diamond to empty the player's hand. The issue here is that you must have an empty hand in order for this card to even function. While this is attainable with Liliana of the Veil, it also removes your ability to interact at the hope of your opponent also being without interaction. I've discussed many times why I dislike Liliana of the Veil in most Nic Fit decks, and will shelve this aspect of the discussion for that reason.

Grim Tutor is a reasonable option. The drawback with Grim Tutor is that it comes at the cost of 3 life = 1 turn. You are basically trading a turn of your life for a card. The issue with this as an option is that paying 3 life is substantially awkward in a Delver-heavy metagame. Awkwardly enough, this Tutor is probably a sideboard option at best -- there are matchups where it will shine, and others where it will only accelerate your demise.

Idyllic is solid but uninspiring because of its expense and restriction. I had my eye on this one in case any of the enchantment creatures ended up being nutso, but we didn't get anything worth consideration.

Rhystic Tutor is...uhhh...weird. Early on in the game it could actually be quite powerful....or following a Tsunami. However, it fails the lategame test (what do I do if I topdeck this on turn 10).

Beseech is a strong contender, imo. At "official" cmc=6, the card all but dodges Counterbalance. Triple black is hard, but functional with the assistance of Urborg -- alternatively, we can just pay 2BB for it. I would actually rank Beseech higher than Diabolic Tutor because of the fact that it dodges most Counterbalance flips. The number of lands restriction is slightly awkward, but at the same time, we vomit so many lands in play that it's likely a non-issue.

Night Dealings is a very strange bird. It ramps counters quickly -- a single hit from something like a Sigarda will allow you to pay 2BB to tutor for a cmc5 or less. TNN will allow you to search for a 3 drop after one hit. Etc. Furthermore, it doesn't sacrifice itself after being used. You can tutor, swing, put more counters on it, and tutor again. Over a couple of turns, this thing actually adds up to be +ca. It is, however, very expensive, and also fails to impact the board by itself at all. I wish it gained like a theft counter per turn passively or something.

Topping the curve is Collusion, RSD, and Revelation. Revelation can tutor for as many cards as you have mana to pour into it, which means that if it resolves, you're probably +ca. RSD is a 6/6 flyer in addition to a tutor, so you're +ca on him as well. Collusion has buyback, but unless you design your deck around it, you're probably not going to want to use it. RSD and Revelation's problem is that they cost 7 mana to be a +1.

Conclusions:

Worth at least considering when deckbuilding:
Diabolic Intent
Grim Tutor
Beseech the Queen
Night Dealings???
RSD
Diabolic Revelation

I firmly believe that if you want to defeat Brainstorm, running more copies of the above cards will help. In the long run, DTutor is better than Recall. It's just a matter of making sure that your deck is capable of supporting the power that tutors bring.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

It's safe to assume that you have a fair amount of lands (5-7)

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This is not a great basis for any scenario.

Anyway, the answer to "which is stronger draw or tutor" is "it depends". Legacy is filled with many tutors and many draw spells and many cards that provide card advantage, but all of them are conditional. If you're building a deck and having to decide between Green Sun's Zenith, Thirst for Knowledge, and Enlightened Tutor, you're building a really shitty deck. All of them are fantastic, but none of them can be compared with each other, and it pretty much works that way for all of Legacy except for the overcosted universal tutors. So, I really don't see what discussion's possible with regards to this subject.

As for your irrelevant scenario of Ancestral Recall vs Demonic Tutor, the answer is Ancestral Recall. It's not even slightly close to being a contest unless you're playing combo. It's... Jesus Christ it's three cards for one mana. God forbid you draw into another Ancestral Recall and get five cards for Demonic Tutor's one. Hell, you might even draw into a Green Sun's Zenith and tutor up what you wanted anyway for the same amount of mana. Ancestral Recall is such the better card. If you were in a bad position in Legacy and suddenly got three more cards in your hand and still couldn't do anything, you were pretty fucked from the start.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arianrhod

They add manacosts to things, and you are essentially trading card advantage for card quality -- ie, if you DTutor for Cabal Therapy to nab your opponent's Batterskull, you've spent 2 cards to answer 1 card: (Tutor + Therapy) vs (Batterskull). Your opponent is left with a squire in play.

Incidentally, this is why Careful Study and Faithless Looting are horrid cards in all circumstances where they aren't being abused

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Careful Study and Faithless Looting are card disadvantage because the net result is -1 card. Demonic Tutor does not even remotely begin to enter the realm of card advantage or disadvantage. Even though you use two cards, you are not down or up cards (unless the card you searched for impacts that result). Vampiric Tutor trades card advantage. Demonic Tutor does not.

k.

What if you run tutor + cantrip?
/end discussion


Look, I'm as non-blue as they come (though I am collecting my blue duals and such in case I ever change my mind ;)) but I should point out that the consistency of cantrips is just like the consistency of Top. All Top is is a 2-mana non-blue cantrip that can stick around instead of drawing. This is why it's powerful, why it's not typically used in blue decks, and the fact that you use Top suggests to me that you're perfectly happy spending slots on cantrips.

The thing is, Brainstorm is better than top a lot of the time; because (especially decks like Nic Fit) have garbage in their hand. A lot of decks don't have hand filters and wizards refuses to print efficient hand filtering outside of blue. Faithless Looting is as close as you get. Personally; I choose non-blue card draw + Top + Liliana. She offers card parity and a "filter" next to other things that draw (Bob for example.)


As an aside; I feel like Bloodgift Demon could be a Nic Fit guy. Flying Bob Demon? Seems usable compared to a lot of things like Doom Engine (really guys? I just pointed out how Grave Titan is better in almost every way and situation.)


EDIT:

Quote:

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They add manacosts to things, and you are essentially trading card advantage for card quality -- ie, if you DTutor for Cabal Therapy to nab your opponent's Batterskull, you've spent 2 cards to answer 1 card: (Tutor + Therapy) vs (Batterskull). Your opponent is left with a squire in play.

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You're new to magic aren't you..?
1-for-1 + 1-for-1 is not 2-for-1. You spent 1 card to get a card and 1 card to force the opponent to discard a card. You've spent 3 mana, but 1 card. I don't know how this isn't exceptionally clear.