The game plan against Miracles isn't to make Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
Printable View
The game plan against Miracles isn't to make Goblins.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
That's weird I could have sworn I heard you proclaim that. Regardless of who said it, it is one of our highest win percent lines for games on the draw. Furthermore, going goblins or not, swarm can't discounted in the miracles match because "counterbalance."
I never said it was bad against Miracles, it's fine there because of Sensei's Divining Top but does absolutely nothing against Counterbalance. Which is a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alix444
Hi, I'll throw my opinión regarding Xantid to whom may interest:
As I'm preparing to the next MKM series I'm in testing process of a Storm variant, my current TES variant is like Bryant but -1 Duress + 3rd C.Moxen main,
the first thing I tested was Surgical Extraction however it is not effective as the Opp. can play in response DTT...so I'm in testing process of Extirpate as a 2 Of.
As I play only 6 discard spells main I play 2 more duress in Side which I bring vs blue mainly.
I took SlothTheDark Approach as a start looking the good results he got in Lille at its simplests is +2 Krosan +3 A.D + 2Extirpate + 2Pyro vs Miracles and I'm quite sure that also SDT made a good job for him..., I took out pyro because it seems more based once PiF is resolved AND in conjunction with SDT and because TES has a more A.N. focused approach. However I'm taking my Old TNT build to start testing once I finish with TES and in here I'll likely copy the strategy from SloshTheDark entirely adding 2 Pyro to the approach.
As said I still haven't tested Extirpate but surgical does a good job vs both Miracles and Omnitell. - sure unless DTT is played in response... I have good feelings at least in TNT regarding Extirpate.
This is my current TES Side:
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Bayou
1 Void Snare
2 Duress
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition
2 Extirpate
I don't have both Massacre and Pyroclasm as I find them redundant - I already have Void snare vs Teeg. and I also prefer to not to play CoV as I still haven't any need of it because of the speed 3 C.M provides me.
As said just my opinion.
Please do not reply me as I'm not interested in any opinion.
Removing Xantid Swarm isn't a surprising decision, I believed then and continue to think now that the deck needs SB disruption that's more relevant in the aggro-control match ups because you have to start off by Duressing your opponent in order to protect your hand from varied hate. We're basically back to the old BUG Delver metagame, except Grixis Delver is even faster with Cabal Therapy and Lightning Bolt.
Not a big fan of SBing Duress tho', I'd rather have a second Thoughtseize - life loss is only a problem after you've cast Ad Nauseam, which means you at least put yourself in a position to win the game if you got there.
Like I mentioned in the article, I'm not sure if a second Disruption spell for the D&T matchup is better yet. It might be considering this is my current plan:Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
-3 Duress
-3 Ponder
+1 Bayou
+2 Chain of Vapor
+1 Void Snare
+1 Pyroclasm
+1 Thoughtseize
If we add in a second Thoughtseize over the Duress you can also do -1 Ponder (4th) +1 Thoughtseize (2nd).
Bryant did you get your Brainstorm issue sorted out? I felt pretty bad about your loss, I'm just wondering if you found a suitable replacement.
I did.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
You have probably explained this before but why do you bring in Pyroclasm instead of having it as a wish target? I have always found myself being able to wish for it/massacre and win the game instead of hoping to draw it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Because if you have Massacre in your sideboard you don't need Pyroclasm there. It's redundant.Quote:
Originally Posted by movadomk5
I meant why do you bring it in instead of leaving it as a wish target. I'm guessing it has shown it better to open with it or draw it then try and wish for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
(also I understand you have exchanged massacre for Pyroclasm due to it being better in the other non white match ups)
He was answering you properly. He listed changes according to his latest list, shown in the Xantid article, which includes both Pyroclasm and Massacre in the sideboard. If you board Pyroclasm in, you still have Massacre in the wish board, thus the redundancy. You're welcome. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by movadomk5
Quote:
Originally Posted by movadomk5
Oops I totally overlooked that. ThanksQuote:
Originally Posted by LDX
Maybe it's time to look over the big list of marginally playable storm cards to see if there's something that stands out as valuable against Miracles and Grixis/RUG Delver as an alternative to the sideboard Duress. Teferi's Realm beats a Counterbalance if you can somehow cast it and get it to resolve!
Because if you are casting burning wish and pyroclasm in the same turn then a couple things are likely to be true:Quote:
Originally Posted by movadomk5
1) You will be down on two cards and still probably taking the whole turn to do this..
2) You probably have taken a lot of damage.
3) Your Ad Nauseam has a really low success rate.
4) Your Empty the Warrens will be for like 4 goblins.
Basically casting your action spells defensively typically pretty bad. Their are situations where it is correct, but it's rarer than you probably think.
I think I'm settled on -3 Xantid Swarm +2 Carpet of Flowers +1 Thoughtseize for tomorrow.
I wouldnt play Carpet right now either.
• It's awful against Omnitell.
• The best tempo deck in the format (Grixis Delver) doesn't care about it due to Deathrite Shaman. (This is also supposed to be where Carpet is best)
• Against Miracles it doesn't do anything about the two cards we care for most - Sensei's Divining Top & Counterbalance.
Fair points. DRS is definitely a big factor that I hadn't considered. That fourth Duress just seems so lackluster, though.
It's not, especially against Omnitell. If I had room for 12 discard spells in that match-up, I'd run them all.
Let last night I came up with this sideboard (Bayou is in the MD over the 4th Bloodstained Mire):
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Void Snare
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Dark Petition
Two sweepers felt redundant, Dread is really good against D&T now due to Vryn Wingmare being another X/1. I wanted two Thoughtseize so I could swap them in for match-ups where Duress is bad. I like how this one looks much more.
Just for the fun of it, would there be any huge detriment to playing a second ad nauseam in the sideboard to bring in over one of the xantid swarm spots? If you side out ETW it makes for a miniscule change in your decks CMC. Just curious what others think
@ManCharm: Not being safe to flip on five seems a bit bad. I'd sooner play a second Tendrils so I could have one main and one board in some matchups.
Tournament Report from a six round $1K follows.
R1
G1 BUG Delver keeps six. I turn one him with Probe into Ponder, shuffle, hit Infernal Tutor.
G2 He goes to five, I make goblins on turn two and he doesn't find any out.
1-0
R2
G1 Miracles plays first and keeps Clique, Force, Snapcaster, and some lands. I get his Force, he Cliques my Burning Wish, I draw into Infernal Tutor and get Burning Wish to Tendrils him.
G2 He keeps Snapcaster, Counterspell, Pyroblast, Surgical, Clique, and lands. I Probe and Therapy his Counterspell on turn one and Empty for eight on turn two. He bricks on finding a Terminus or his EE.
2-0
R3
G1 Omni has two Cunning Wishes, a Force, a tentacle monster, a Dig, and lands. I get cute and Therapy the Emrakul thinking to blank the Dig and ensure I survive to the next turn. I draw all bricks and he makes an Omniscience.
G2 He has Show and Tell, Brainstorm, Preordain, Spell Pierce, Island when I probe him. This one goes super long. He ends up making an Omniscience but not doing anything with it for several turns. Eventually he finds a Preordain and kills me with it, while he was dead on my turn to my two Rites, a Lotus Petal, and a Burning Wish Brainstormed to the top of my library.
2-1
R4
G1 I know my opponent is on Miracles. I get a game loss for a deck registration error since I don't know the name of that bounce spell we can Wish for. (Protip: It isn't called "Vapor Snag" apparently.)
G2 I see he has Force, make four Empty the Warrenses, he counters one. I beat him down until he stabilizes with two Mentors, then kill him with Tendrils.
G3 This one might be the most embarassing match of Legacy ever played. A brick and a houseplant would have played this game more accurately than we did. He runs out turn one Pithing Needle, almost names Lotus Petal, thinks better of it and names Polluted Delta. Meanwhile I kept a one-lander with a Delta. I rip Mire and Duress his Force. My next draw is another Delta. I eventually rip Abrupt Decay which I cast off Petal to turn on my two Deltas. Meanwhile, he's played Meddling Mage on Grapeshot, which isn't in my 75. I also get the sense that he thinks my deck has counterspells in it. Eventually I'm down to just a Therapy, a Ritual, and Burning Wish. I lose a turn early not knowing I'm (very likely) dead on board since I didn't realize the tokens Mentor makes also have prowess.
2-2
R5
Bye. Apparently all the other X-2s dropped not thinking there'd be only two 4-0s.
R6
Win and in versus 4-Colour Loam. Somehow. There were some weird draws and premature drops.
G1 He mulligans to oblivion and has no relevant cards, I have to Therapy myself to get rid of an uncastable Brainstorm to get hellbent.
G2 He has nothing, I die to Ad Nauseam from 15 with a mana up because this deck is garbage and no one should ever consider playing it.*
G3 I keep a suspect hand, brick twice, fail to play out my zero drops. He makes Chalice on zero into Chalice on one into Chalice on two into Gaddock Teeg into Trinisphere further confirming that he's the luckiest guy in the whole world. He would go on to beat the Omni guy by putting in his singleton Trinisphere with a Show and Tell. Guy should buy a whole stack of lottery tickets I guess.
*Still tilted.
The zero Swarm sideboard was good except that the Massacre was never relevant. There were two Elves players and no Death and Taxes, so the Pyroclasm felt good even though I never cast it. Meta was massively dominated by Grixis decks.
So, turns out this deck is very well suited to my meta. I'm on a monthly budget but I want to get this together asap. I have one LED, 4 Deltas, and 3 Tarns (which will have to do for now), along with shocklands which might be a necessary evil. Additionally, my LGS is allowing 10 proxies.
What pieces can I skimp on in order to make the deck work for under 100 using the conditions outlined above, and in which order should I proceed from there?
I apologize for the annoying questions, I'm really bad at deck building. :D
If you proxy 2 Underground Sea, 2 Volcanic Island, 3 Lion's Eye Diamond, 1 Bayou, 2 Bloodstained Mire, the rest of the deck is relatively inexpensive. Probably more than $100 but not a whole lot more.Quote:
Originally Posted by bjholmes3
I like the idea. Going up to nine discard effects post board could also be a viable option against other combo decks and miracle, maybe? I find myself needing more of them post board where whe have to stop their combo and remove counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
So here's a question for all of you. I've been playing many Storm variants for a while now (ANT, DDFT, Tin Fins) and have recently been trying out TES. I have always heard that TES is more explosive/a turn or two faster than ANT, but doesn't have the same amount of protection or late game power as ANT. I'm not quite understanding this assessment. Yes, TES is (depending) more explosive and a turn or two faster, but I don't quite grasp how it offers less protection or late game play. As I see it, both decks run the same amount of discard spells and cantrips (+/- the two flex spots in ANT, taken up by Preordain/SDT/Grim Tutor). There's your protection, and even your late game play in the form of cantrips and such.
Not only that, but TES runs a total of 8 tutors, making it more redundant. Easier to draw one late in the game (say, after your hand has been ripped apart via Cabal Therapy ala Grixis Delver) tutor for PiF and go from there. Then there's the whole Wish-Board aspect of TES, making it more resilient to hate G1 and on, and protected from Surgical to an extent that ANT can't hope to achieve.
Then there are the lines of play. As we all know, the best part about TES (aside from being the best AdNaus deck out there) is that you don't have to get to 10 Storm to close out the game. Even five or six Storm can produce enough Goblins to get there. So many more paths to victory. Grave hate does nearly nothing against this deck, aside from the few times you may have to resort to PiF or actually care about Rite of Flame count (which is far less crucial than thresh for Cabal Ritual, if you ask me), unlike ANT. They now have to either Natural Tendrils or remove the hate before continuing. How isn't this offering more protection?
The way I see it, TES is just a harder deck to play. Many more lines to consider, of course, plus the juggling of three colors as early as turn one. ANT doesn't have more protection (discard) spells than us, so how are they more protected? They don't have as many tutors as us, so they are less likely to draw them when they need to win the top deck war (late game, maybe?). They have no access to a Wish Board, so how do they fight G1 hate that some decks offer?
I've seen the top of the mountain, and it is good. Deep beneath the ice, beneath the soil and the rock, Dominaria's fire still burned hot. And that fire's name is The Epic Storm.
First, I think it's weird that you cite the ease of Wishing for PiF as evidence of late game strength and then follow by saying grave hate does nothing to TES. You can't have your cake and then say cake-hate does nothing to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by KenCoghlanIII
Second, EtW is consistently getting weaker as the meta develops more towards blue-centric control and combo. EtW can steal games, but there's an increasing proportion of games where innocent Goblins meet their doom due to being Terminused, annihilated, or lost in combat due to other more incrementally deployed tokens. Moreover, EtW actively gets worse as games progress; having an extra storm option can be useful, but options are only as good as their utility.
Third, TES is better than ANT at handling Surgical, but it's not something "ANT can't hope to achieve" and it's not even that big of a deal. If you're on TES and suspect Surgical, you often have to side ToA in against UBx anyway, ANT can achieve the same protection by siding in a singleton Wish, not even that different. ANT also has Ad Nauseam post-board, and Dark Petition to reduce the impact of Extraction on IT.
Regarding the overall point of late game play, you're missing the impact that deck construction plays and you're looking at terms like "protection" in too linear and concrete a fashion.
Here's a big concept to consider: TES plays fewer lands. Lands are a huge part of late game play because they give you a bigger initial mana base to work with, they decrease the opportunity cost of using cantrips to build storm, reduce vulnerability to soft counters like Daze, and increase in value with every untap step. Also, Wishes and Tutors, in multiples, are way more awkward to resolve than cantrips, especially when you have fewer lands to even cast such cards. I'm pretty sure I could find at least 4-5 features in the past year or two where Bryant just loses to an inability to find lands, if you're looking for examples.
Taking it further, consider the Chess concept of "Zugzwang", or, "compulsion to move". Zugzwang is when, by the rules of chess, you must complete a move, but every possible move leads to a worse overall position. In Storm vs. Control, you are often forced to wait against multiple counters to assemble a hand, and the hand limit creates the same "Zugzwang" issue; you are forced to play or discard a card and it leave you worse off. Fewer lands means it's harder to parlay your 8-card hand into a win because you rely more on rituals resolving and cant easily use cantrips, you also reach the zugzwang point faster because you get, on average, fewer lands to lay down, and TES swaps cantrips for Wishes, which can't find lands. Also, ANT's cantrips can find acceleration and are cheaper compared to chains of spells that involved multiple Wishes/Tutors. As an aside, ANT can play SDT, which is insane in control because it obliterates the whole "Zugzwang" issue, and doubles as a Storm engine.
In terms of late game draws, I don't think TES is all that impressive, compared to ANT, either. Imagine drawing a Chrome Mox in a topdeck situation, for instance, or the fact that only the third or 4th Rite of Flame can compete with the mana production offered by Cabal Ritual or Rain of Filth. TES's primary bomb, Ad Nauseam, also tends to get worse over a long game, whereas ANT can prepare itself for natural Storm more easily by leaning on PiF. While it's easy to point at ANT and say it's so linear and vulnerable to GY hate, TES's "many more paths to victory" often get hated on by the opponent simply developing a board.
TES and ANT are pretty much trading inflections of efficiency. TES shortcuts land development and Storm count to try and pickup more t1/t2 combos, ANT goes for more manipulation of cantrips/GY/Storm to achieve a better grind game. Pick the option that suits your meta better.
What would you play in a metagame where Death and Taxes is totally absent? (I haven't seen anyone playing it in probably a year or more. Then again I haven't been playing a tonne.) Move the Bayou back out and toss in Diminishing Returns or something?Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Protection isn't just about discard or the number of lands, its about basic lands being able to chain cantrips off an Island or cast all disruption and rituals off a Swamp. The counter argument vs PIF is kind of inane tho', people SB graveyard hate in for your main Storm engine and Threshold Cabal Rituals and not your wish targets.
Total land count is discretionary, you can run 14/1 land/Mox or whatever.
I find the land count thing in ANT's favor kind of funny, when the most successful ANT list in the last 6 months have been running 14 while TES runs 13 (with one in the sideboard) and two Chrome Mox. It's incredibly difficult to notice an actual difference in the land count here.
That ant plays 14 lands and its the most succesfull is not true. Just Caleb decklist plays 14. All the lists from Gp Lille and also the one who won the mkm Rome played 15 lands.
That is just 1 played vs all the other succesfull lists, kais, sloshs, martins and wagners list for example.
Diminishing return is not an option since the deck doesn't run silence anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
I've always finded ANT to be more prepared to beat delver decks. Having basics makes them ignore wasteland for the most part, and PiF allows to win even at very low life. TES has more problems do to Ad Nauseam.
Goblins can still be good against miracles. Sure, they have terminus, but on turn 1/2 they are still pretty hard to answer.
Edit.
The biggest issue right now is not about TES or ANT being a better choice, but why the hell you're not running a deck with DIG. Last week I picked up Omnitell (gh..)and it felt like cheating.
I played at the gp lille omni just because as you say dig is like cheating. But is not a really funny deck like storm.
Hope they ban dig. And then I have not to make this kind of choice.
Now ant is getting a littl worser due to grixis delver with chaman being the n1 delver deck.
Also on dimishing. I would only play it if my meta is full of monoblack pox and jund. hard discard decks with slow clock and no counters (reb excluded).
But you are sure aware that the Islands gets usually boarded out if you don't play against Wasteland postboard. With that being said: I still love 14 lands :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Togores
Its a trinity of more lands overall, basic lands and stronger rituals which makes the difference against tempo decks and not the engine you use in the end. Pointing to lifeloss when discussing TES vs. Delver is ignoring the decks flexible nature to evade the lifepoint-topic completely via EtW, PIF or, my favorite, the cantrip-chain. I really wish some people would stop forcing the deck into the belcher-mode against tempo, but realize that you can ignore half their deck by simply giving no target for their cheap, early interactionQuote:
Originally Posted by Spam
I've also noticed how grixis delver is becoming the best choice. In the right hand that deck cuts everything like butter.
RE: swarm
Could always add a Pithing needle?
but other than Top and Deathrite I can't think of any other high impact targets.
Storm Hands II - http://www.theepicstorm.com/storm-hands-2/
Hand: Ponder, Underground Sea, Polluted Delta, Lotus Petal, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Ritual and Rite of Flame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bryant Cook
Would I keep this hand? Yes.
How to play: Your Ponder here would ideally find disruption AND a Tutor effect, but it has all the mana you need. Risk versus reward.
^^For this hand I have a couple questions. If you find just a tutor and two duals, are you just going to go for it? If you find discard and a cantrip I assume you cast discard offensively or defensively based on the second cantrip?
So, you let your opp resolve a Gaddock through chalice on two?Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
tilting seems fair
4C Loam runs GSZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by jandax