[Deck] Death and Taxes

I've been having GREAT success with my current Chrome Mox (mainboard) list.. so I can definitely see the value in Chrome Mox in the board against certain kinds of match-ups.

My current list:
3 Moms
4 Thalia, GoT
3 SFM
3 Revoker
4 Flickerwisp
3 Recruiter
3 Prelate
3 Thalia, HC
1 Jitte
1 SoFI
1 Skull
4 StP
4 Vial
2 Chrome Mox
4 Wasteland
4 Port
9 Plains
3 Karakas
2 Cavern

(yes it's 61 cards.. for that elusive 23.5 land-base)

Even in games vs. miracles (where you think Chrome mox would be at it's worse) being able to power out a T1 Thalia or a T2 Prelate can be huge. Against lands I had a THC out on T2 and it just completely derailed their whole gameplan.

Also I love being able to play around daze to protect things like my vial or mom on T1. Land-drop, play chrome mox (they can't daze), then cast Vial (can't daze).

Being able to get t1 SFM for Jitte against historically bad MUs like Elves is big game; as you can deploy it t2 and connect with it t3 (as opposed to t4 as usual). One game (magic xmasland I know) post board I was able to go (on the play). T1: Land+Mox for SFM and Jitte. T2: land, Mirran Crusader. T3: land, play and equip jitte to Crusader->Swing -> opponent concedes.


I haven't missed the 4th SFM; but I do sometimes miss the 4th mom. I've been running a 3/3 split on recruiter and prelate because I want to continue to gets reps and games with the card to really see how they perform. I feel like 3x recruiter makes 1x or 2x silver-bullet creatures in my board just more potent and effective... and with mox in some % of games... being able to T2 recruiter for the silver bullet and casting it on T3 reliably feels pretty good to me.

Prelate is just so good in so many match-ups... many of my opponents say it's a must kill and it's the card they fear the most. Not playing 3 (or even 2+1) just seems.. wrong?

in the last SCG legacy 5k I was in a few weeks ago I played against a UR delver player who had the following cards in his main:
- 1x Roast
- 2x Sudden Shock
- 1x Fire/Ice

While the roast was also a concession to TKS and RSmasher; he said the 4 cards were in the deck specifically because "D&T forced me to do this because of Sanctum Prelate".

So previously I've been running this:

Creatures: (26)
4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
1 Mirran Crusader

Non-Creature Spells: (11)
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

Lands: (23)
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains

Interestingly, the main I ended up on (I didn't do this on purpose, I swear!) ended up exactly the same as the mtgtop8 averaged deck list posted a page back.

Sideboard: (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Council's Judgment
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
2 Path to Exile
2 Rest in Peace
1 Leonin Relic-Warder
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Pithing Needle

Side is pretty straightforward too.

Anyway, today I ended going well in a small local tournament, splitting the finals. The largest change I made was:

Main:
-1 Crusader
-1 Flickerwisp
+2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar

SB:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Mangara of Corondor
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Mirran Crusader

Primarily to test THC. Overall, I found her fine. But certainly replaceable. The most tangible utility she ended up having was being an uncounterable beatstick that I could defend with Karakas to give Miracles headaches. I'm not really that unimpressed with her effect (it does certainly shine at times, but D&T truly does not capitalise on her well compared to other shells), but the thing I hate most about her is how slot-inefficient she is. Just like Avenger, she needs to be played as at least a two-of, even though she is tutorable (unlike Avenger, which is why a two-of is necessary), because as we know, she's pretty awful (or at least below-par) when not curved into naturally. Furthermore, she cuts into the three-drop slot, of which the only truly replaceable one is Crusader (cutting the fourth Flickerwisp was more an experiment to remind myself, yeah, this certainly should be a four-of, as it was brilliant all day). If we're not cutting a Wisp, then we need to cut into Avenger or Prelate. Prelate I'm sure everyone has realised is quite quite busted, and is perfect to curve into or tutor (which is the epitome of a great card in our deck, of course). Avenger has been brilliant against the fair decks of the world (especially the mirror - I have trumped almost every mirror match I've played recently due to Avenger playing offence/defence simultaneously) and has notably kept the curve tight which I think should be one of our main concerns (also why I'm not a fan of cutting a Mom - compared to the rest of Legacy we're actually sorely lacking things to do on t1 if we don't draw t1 Vial or Mom). I don't think going to one Avenger is really all too feasible.

Jailer I never drew today, but I'll keep testing it over the Mangara as I get chances to play. In the end they're essentially filling the same grindy slow tutorable creature role, I suppose. I think it'll likely be fine.

tl;dr - my conclusions come to THC being playable, certainly, but incredibly slot-inefficient in our already crammed decklist - warping our deck with more acceleration etc. is the only way to push her favourably, and you're essentially going down the E&T path then. Avenger is still amazing at bridging the deck's now awkward-ish curve, and I'd continue to highly recommend her.

ChemicalBurns, do you have a tourney report?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

The obvious change to that list is removing thalia, heretic cathar for a card that is worth tutoring for like mirran crusader, banisher priest, mangara or palace jailer.

I think by now is pretty much clear that thalia heretic cathar is a card you either play in multiples or don't play at all.

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Okay, sounds good to me. I play Elves myself primarily and I've heard this version of Thalia is supposed to be pretty solid against us and so I wanted to play against it a bit, but if the general consensus is that the new cards have kind of pushed it out I can live with that. Mirran Crusader CAN be good as well if you can get it down early enough and it probably is a lot better against some of the Shardless and Delvers of the world. Thanks everyone.

He is not saying that TGCReqiuem. He is saying you don't play it with the expectation of fetching it with Recruiter. And he is correct.

So I've been having a little bit of trouble with the new 4c Delver variant (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518628#paper) with maindeck Snapcasters and TNNs.

The deck is secretly Blue Jund (more so than Shardless) with endless Bolts and Decays. Unlike stock Grixis Delver, it doesn't just lose g1 to any equipment or a Prelate on 1 and it has an actual late game with TNN/Snapcasters. I think deck can afford to play so many 'beat fair deck' cards like Decay/TNN because unfair decks have been pushed out of the format. If that's where long-term trends are going, it's kinda bad for DnT. Anyway, the match-up isn't unloseable, I find myself losing in 3 a lot, they still have a very greedy manabase that sometimes just folds on them. But having maindeck answers to TNN might become necessary if more people switch to that variant and similar "I choose you" decks.

Playing Serra Avengers helps, though again with their infinite removal they don't necessarily stick. An online Mystic Crusader would be close to being our own TNN in the matchup, but getting 7 cards in the card without fetches is hard.

Bomby late game flyers like Resto could also be good in the Jund style games, though a bit hard to resolve vs 4 Daze/4 Wasteland.

Splashing black for Orzhov Pontiff has always been an option, I know Bahra's tried a Kambal/Dark Confidant build with mixed results in some streams. Problem with Pontiff is it seems like such a dead card when it's not good.

I'm upping my Council's Judgment count to 2 in the sideboard for next weekend's tournament, less for True Name Nemesis and more for Leovold who makes it very hard for our deck to do anything. Every single BUG deck in my meta is running at least 1 or 2, one even has 3 along with Snapcasters. Depending on how things keep going I may even need to add one to the mainboard.

My graveyard hate has also evolved; instead of 2 Rest in Peace I'm now running only 1 along with 2 Faerie Macabre, who is both tutorable with Recruiter but also instant speed and essentially uncounterable. It's our best shot against a turn 1 reanimation, helps with Punishing Fire, and in the case of Snapcaster decks can help with the recurring removal.

Leovold is absolutely a problem card for our deck. I've found that it is grinding most of my actions (Port, Waste, equipment activations) to a halt. Sure, you can bounce it with Karakas, but that's often not a winning proposition.

I faced, and lost to, a variant of that deck with White instead of Red (STP instead of Bolt) in Denver. I'm out of practice but it seemed tricky for sure. I think I ended up using a sideboarded Path or Judgment to remove Leovold at one point.

I'd rather get rid of it for good than Karakas, which just gives them the opportunity to cast it again and draw when targeted the next turn. I Plow it on sight if possible; the one card at the time is much better than the abundance of card draw they are threatening by leaving it on the board. Having multiple Paths in the sideboard also helps by increasing our chances of having removal as a quick answer, but Council's Judgment is a cleaner answer if you can cast it.

RE: 4C Delver
I am playing this deck these days (in order to become a better player, not for a loss of love for DnT) and I have to say, it is extremely resilient and difficult for DnT to deal with. I am on the fence about Leovold, Emissary of Trest, not because it isn't fantastic, but because it really stresses the mana base.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

So I've been having a little bit of trouble with the new 4c Delver variant (https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/518628#paper) with maindeck Snapcasters and TNNs.

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Just wanted to add/echo in the problems lately with 4C delver moving towards TNN and main deck decays.

Some of these decks have even been trimming on FoW; certainly a bad sign for us!


Also wanted to add that after playing with 3 main deck THCs for a while now; and with chrom mox to power her out on T2.. I've found her to be neutral. She's just okay and as often as her Legend status is a bonus (for Karakas) it's a downside (multiple copies and opponent Karakas). I'm not sure what to replace her with; but I feel like disruptive elements are best. Perhaps go back to a maindeck Aven Mindcensor? Or a banisher priest as many have done.


I kinda miss my old Imperial list with 1x Pia and Kiran Naalar... now there was a card that felt like it could turn a game around. Multiple bodies (with flying), tutorable, karakas-able, human, and even gave the deck burn/reach!

Yeah Pia/Kiran is one way to beat Jund-y decks...just out Jund them.

I made the mistake recently of mis-identifying that 4c delver deck for grixis delver. Game 1 I basically saw Grixis Delver and game 2 those TNN plus Jitte were brutal and he had what he needed for the disruption that I was able to find.

Have any of you played 24 lands yet? It's probably not a popular opinion but I think with the build I am running, 24 lands is definitely correct.

http://i.imgur.com/X5XUQLc.jpg


I'm running a lot of caverns and I had problems with land screw and missing white mana in a lot of my games, I added 1 plains and since then I've been super happy with the deck.

You don't miss extra Prelates?
Only 1 seems too low.

Number of lands seems right since you are a bit heavier on 3drops than most builds and post side you lean in 4s quite hard

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Originally Posted by Pilhas

You don't miss extra Prelates?
Only 1 seems too low.

Number of lands seems right since you are a bit heavier on 3drops than most builds and post side you lean in 4s quite hard

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1 Prelate is the perfect number. It's tutorable which means I have it when I want it through the Recruiter of the Guard, and most match ups I don't want just a 2/2. It's decent vs. Delver/ANT/Lands, OK against miracles but that's all, if it had first strike it would be a different story but in the end it's just a 2/2. Too fragile and really low board impact.

if you can defend it via MoR, it's backbreaking against both Miracle and Grixis

You just suck for StP and Vial.
The second is untouchable but if you want to go deep on the Prelate route just play Declaration in Stone..
I would give it a try

I have a 1/1 split of Prelate main/side in my 75. Multiples of Prelate is great in a few matchups like Miracles, but there are matchups where I just never want to see her like Eldrazi or Elves. If Recruiter weren't in the deck, you'd be crazy not to play multiples, but because she shines best in slower matchups anyway, you have time to find her via a natural draw or tutoring for her with Recruiter. I'd rather the deck have a beatdown angle to it so we can pressure the opponent rather than just die to a card with a CMC we didn't name.

Bahra, 'decent' vs Lands might be selling that card *just* a little short. It wins on the spot vs Lands or Grixis Delver. Having played against Miracles with it a ton by now, it's easily the card they're the most scared to see. I could see a 1/1 split with one in the board, but running fewer than 2 in my 75 seems crazy. 24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve. I've done it recently with Ghost Quarter builds. Ghost Quarter comes close to being a white source with enough Flagstones...Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

Yesterday night I ran a WB list similar to the one you were streaming with - Kambals, Bobs, etc. and went 3-1, beating UR Delver, Burn and UB Tezz, losing to a UR TNN/Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden deck that is pretty much built to crush DnT. Kambal is very busted and that card probably deserves to be played somewhere.

I am not an expert of DnT but I would never play less than 2+1. Or at least 1+2

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve.

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I play an extra land as a 61st card, and it works fine. http://cur.by/.dtlist

If I get rid of THCs for cheaper options, I might drop down to 23/60 though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

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My target for Faerie/Surgical was mostly BR Reanimator, and for that reason I went with Faerie. If they go off turn 1 on the play with a revealed Chancellor, your Surgical won't save you, but Faerie will. If they dump two reanimation targets, your Surgical won't save you, but Faerie will.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Bahra, 'decent' vs Lands might be selling that card *just* a little short. It wins on the spot vs Lands or Grixis Delver. Having played against Miracles with it a ton by now, it's easily the card they're the most scared to see. I could see a 1/1 split with one in the board, but running fewer than 2 in my 75 seems crazy. 24 land is probably a good idea with such a high SB curve. I've done it recently with Ghost Quarter builds. Ghost Quarter comes close to being a white source with enough Flagstones...Also I think running 3 Surgical and 0 Faerie Macabre is just wrong - even if you strongly prefer Surgical, going to 2 Surgical 1 Macabre bumps your post-board GY interaction to 6 cards.

Yesterday night I ran a WB list similar to the one you were streaming with - Kambals, Bobs, etc. and went 3-1, beating UR Delver, Burn and UB Tezz, losing to a UR TNN/Punishing Fire/Dack Fayden deck that is pretty much built to crush DnT. Kambal is very busted and that card probably deserves to be played somewhere.

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Yea I added 1 Faerie Macabre now, it makes sense what you said.

I don't think Prelate needs to be in the sideboard at all. I have 3 Recruiter of the Guard, why do I need more Prelates? It's super good vs. Lands yes, and that's one of the main reason I play it, but it's terrible in a lot of match ups too, and only does something when you're already ahead.

Having early and natural Prelates vs Delver decks before they have time to build a board / spend their 1s is big, and Recruitering can be a bit slow.

Vs Miracles there's both benefit to having multiples in play (1+6) and not having to burn your Recruiter engine - as soon as you pick something that isn't Recruiter/Flickerwisp vs Miracles you're giving up the infinite creatures train. Having a natural Prelate early on 1 vs Miracles allows you to jam them before they can get much going - later in the game, while still very strong, they'll have more flexibility to get it off the board with the number you didn't choose.

Vs Lands, where it actually is best, 1 is probably fine, since waiting a turn doesn't affect the game much.

It ultimately is a meta-call, obviously it's mediocre-to-bad vs creature heavy decks. But when it's good, resolving it on t3 just wins the game, and that's a very high upside. Kinda plays like Magus of the Moon, and two ended up being the right number for that card.

I really like having two Prelates in the main, though there is something to be said about having too many non-threat creatures. A few months ago, it wasn't uncommon for decks to play around 7 finishers. Post-Recruiter/Prelate, that number tends to be closer to three.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Medea_

A few months ago, it wasn't uncommon for decks to play around 7 finishers. Post-Recruiter/Prelate, that number tends to be closer to three.

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Can we say we were at 12 counting Batterskull and Flickerwisp? Going from 12 to 8 sounds a lot less drastic than 7 to 3. I'm not advocating papering over what might be a real problem with durdly builds, but at the same time we shouldn't ignore parts of our fighting force. Doing so could lead us into thinking our army is smaller than it really is.

If Batterskull and Flickerwisp don't count (needs SFM, 1 toughness is too weak), then yeah we're back at 7 to 3.

What I really meant by that was dedicated beater cards (Mirran Crusader, Avenger, Brimaz).

I will admit that I've cut down on beater cards but I feel that with recruiter I don't need them as much.

Between our standard hate + prelate I feel like I can:

#1 lock the game down so tightly (to the point where many opponents are just draw-go) that a simple array of 2/2s and 2/1s can get the job done

#2 equipment + wisps has become more important at delivering beat downs

#3 I feel like once I do have the game locked down .. I can just go recruiter for one of the limited beaters and take care of the game that way.

The priority has become to lock down the game first; and then once control is established; begin the inevitable beatdowns while I port/waste and thalia/prelate/revoker lock them into nothing.

Brief 4-0 weekly report with list I posted before, but tried:

Main:
-1 Crusader
+1 Banisher Priest

SB:
-1 Containment Priest
-1 Mangara
+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Palace Jailer

I've been interested in trying Priest for awhile, especially with Enevoldsen touting it almost always in his lists, and it did shine in one of the matchups. Overall it was fine.

Round 1: vs. Miracles
Game 1: I naturally draw both my Prelates, set them to 1 and 6 and then kill him with whatever is on board.

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Council's Judgment
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Mirran Crusader

Game 2: He has a slow start and is searching for a Top, while I have Thalia protected by Karakas annoying him. Eventually I Gideon him and win.

Round 2: vs. Infect
Game 1: I curve out with Plows into a Vial in SFM which gets a Jitte and gets the job done. Mana denial on Inkmoth too.

I need help with the SBing for this matchup. I've heard people speak of cutting Thalia so removal is easier to cast, which I'm not sure I can agree on (but I do see the benefits).

+2 Path to Exile
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Ethersworn Canonist
-1 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Phyrexian Revoker
-1 Sanctum Prelate
-1 Flickerwisp

Reasoning: cut three drops since they can be durdly. Prelate isn't that amazing when they have such a diversity of removal and we can end up turning off our own removal spells. Revoker, although it hits Hierarch, generally is unimpressive as mana denial is reserved for Inkmoths rather than actually trying to mana screw them.

Game 2: On my turn two I have a Vial ticking up, Port and Plains, while he as Hierarch, Inkmoth, Forest. I jam Revoker and name Hierarch (although I could've Ported) since, in my mind, it achieves similar to Port in that it denies a single mana while still giving me a clock, and he cannot Daze it off his Forest (I have a SFM to bring in once my Vial ticks up to 2 too). I die to land, Invig + Berserk, ugh. I guess Porting Inkmoth would've been safer overall.

Game 3: I play Mom > Thalia and only draw Wastelands, Ports and Plow/Path for the rest of the game, killing all his Infecters with these. And this locks up the game pretty easy. Thalia certainly annoyed me a little in casting my removal, but it wasn't too much of a pain and frustrated him much more.

Round 3: vs. Eldrazi
Game 1: Punt the game by getting my t2 SFM Dismembered due to trading my Mom for a Mimic.

-4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
-2 Sanctum Prelate
-4 Mother of Runes
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Council's Judgment
+1 Palace Jailer
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Leonin Relic-Warder
+1 Mirran Crusader
+1 Containment Priest

Thalia is an interesting one to cut (first strike is quite reasonable), but she does minimal and makes my removal hard to cast. Priest, although shutting off my Vial, seems to work well as a pseudo-removal spell due to its Ambush Viper mode. It could just be a Prelate to tutor for if needed though, I guess, though Prelate herself is pretty miserable as naming two for their Jitte/Contortion/Wail is still kind of narrow.

Game 2:
Death & Taxes does what Death & Taxes does. Turn one Vial, into denying mana into SFM for Batterskull does great work, and a Banisher Priest takes care of a Seer. I end up with double Wisp in hand to seal up the game, resetting my BSkull and flickering away a blocker after he taps out for an Endbringer in the final turn.

Game 3: I squeak this one out! He turn one Eyes and poops out a Mimic and two 2/2 Endless Ones, so I'm under pressure. I have no turn one play, and my SFM gets Dismembered. Luckily, all my opponent has is a Cavern to follow up with and a Matter Reshaper. I cast a Flickerwisp, killing an Endless One and trading with the Mimic, and then curve into Gideon and trade off again. I'm at a scant amount of life (2) and annoyingly have a Horizon Canopy. Luckily I have a Banisher Priest to rid the Reshaper and clear the board, letting Gideon clean up the rest. My opponent shows me a hand with Seer and other four mana plus goodies that were uncastable. Eldrazi problems, I suppose.

Round 4: vs. Miracles
Game 1: Usual broken rubbish D&T has now. Double Prelate seals it all up - I never attack with them and just bring the beats with Thalia and a motley crew.

-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Stoneforge Mystic
-4 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Banisher Priest
+1 Palace Jailer
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Council's Judgment
+2 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
+1 Mirran Crusader

Game 2: This was the funnest game of the day, mainly because I tried some weird stuff. My opponent struggles through the first wave of idiots (including removing Prelate backed up with Mom via Sulfur Elemental + Plow), but I'm able to Recruiter for a Jailer and eat his Sulfur - and then continue to draw seven or so cards in the next few turns, really putting my opponent on the back foot. They have a Jace going for a few turns but I pester it with some Revokers and friends. Some stuff eventually gets Terminused and a late Vial is bait for a Wear // Tear, allowing me to safely get a SoFI in play. My opponent brings a Mentor, I have Council's Judgment. My opponent then has Staticaster, but I Recruiter for Jailer again and eat it, eqiupping Sword to my Jailer. I eventually hit Jace to dead. I also have a Prelate on six, my opponent has another Sulfur that he attacks with. I derp and let him hit me, getting back his Staticaster to kill my Prelate and make him the Monarch. Bad plays, learn to read your cards. So now he starts cards flowing. He's forced to Terminus my Sword equipped Jailer though, and then I flood the board again. He struggles to clear it but can't get there, with a Karakas backed Thalia taking back Monarchy and eventually leading me to a winning game. Winning through 4 Terminus, 2 Sulfur Elemental, 1 Staticaster, multiple Plows and Snap Plows and Snap Wears is a sweet time indeed.

Palace Jailer truly impressed me. If I didn't make the poor blocking choice with Prelate I think I more easily would've won. The card warped the dimensions of the match completely, and was perfect as a card that was uncounterable (via Cavern), grindy removal for problematic creatures. It lets you happily cut Plows and still have a bevvy of flexible removal post-board. I'm sure I'm a bit biased because he went well, and I know some people have had the "I had Jailer, then he Cliqued me EOT and drew a billion cards" problem. But seeing my opponent's zero cards in hand to my six thanks to Jailer was glorious.

Anyway, primarily interested in:
- Infect SBing
- Thoughts on Jailer
- Thoughts on Banisher Priest (she was great vs. Eldrazi, just okay otherwise)

Also, concerning 4c Delver that people have been worried about, I agree that turn 2 TNN is hella scary - I had to face this last week in the semis of my small tourney against Stevestamopz. If we can't assemble some form of lifegain, have Vial to flood the board and race it, or have CJ on schedule the game generally falls out of reach. I've long been a proponent of two CJ side (and I think this is standard now anyway) but I know some people have looked at shaving to 1. I feel this is less warranted now with both 4c Delver and the Bant DeathBlade decks being so popular, and their primarily gameplan against us being to dork out TNN ASAP. Also, Serra Avenger has always been our answer to racing TNN, and having her can certainly help swing races or be a warm body to Jitte up.

EDIT: Also, concerning Prelate, agreeing with iatee here (though it may just be my meta) that 2 Prelates feels perfect. I find that naturally casting one (as seen in the report above) and then tutoring for the last has been the one-two punch to lock out many decks entirely - do note that the first Prelate generally gives you time to find the second as it locks out the opponent's ability to find answers. I don't think there is any space for additional though due to how lacklustre she is in other MUs, and I suppose a 1/1 split main SB is pretty reasonable to hedge for more Eldrazi/D&T heavy metas. Her body is also pretty terrible and necessitates having some kind of a pure beatsticks in our lists. A card that can singlehandedly win matchups itself should not be a mere one-of though, I feel.

Thalia is stronger than C Priest vs Eldrazi. 2/1 first strike body is better than 2/2 flash, and the Thalia + Karakas wall can hold back a big dude. Thalia wears equipment well too. Don't think she's fantastic, would never keep 4 in, but C Priest really doesn't do enough.

Vs Infect, I think Pithing Needle isn't great - it stops their threat that we naturally have a million ways to stop. I'd prefer Council's Judgment, as slow as it is, super slow removal is still removal and sometimes you lose to a mid-game Blighted Agent.

Banisher Priest is also good vs Infect, DnT and big creature combo decks - basically every deck that plays creatures but doesn't play a lot of removal. Really shines vs Eldrazi because it turns their two-for-one bombs (Smasher/TKS) into a two-for-one in your favor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Thalia is stronger than C Priest vs Eldrazi. 2/1 first strike body is better than 2/2 flash, and the Thalia + Karakas wall can hold back a big dude. Thalia wears equipment well too. Don't think she's fantastic, would never keep 4 in, but C Priest really doesn't do enough.

Vs Infect, I think Pithing Needle isn't great - it stops their threat that we naturally have a million ways to stop. I'd prefer Council's Judgment, as slow as it is, super slow removal is still removal and sometimes you lose to a mid-game Blighted Agent.

Banisher Priest is also good vs Infect, DnT and big creature combo decks - basically every deck that plays creatures but doesn't play a lot of removal. Really shines vs Eldrazi because it turns their two-for-one bombs (Smasher/TKS) into a two-for-one in your favor.

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I think that's fair, and keeping in a singleton Thalia is probably better than Priest. I was happy to experiment with the choice though nonetheless.

I also can get behind CJ due to many having Library which can be very threatening for us, so its removal with upside if we can cast it, especially since it gets around Vines. It can be a bit slow, but the matchup can get grindy at times indeed - and Blighted Agent is the scariest card for us. I'll give this a spin next time I play the MU. How do we feel about Prelate in this MU? Since we'll be naming 3 a lot for Invigorate, CJ gets a bit awkward here too.

I guess my only issue is that Banisher Priest leaves you prone to blowouts from Eldrazi and D&T, as although they have little removal pre-board, post-side this is upped a bit. I got a Priest Dismembered mid-combat which would've left me in a hairy situation if I did not have Wisp to bail me out. Priest also didn't feel really like a two-for-one (other than when exiling Smasher or Reshaper), as her mediocre body tends to just sit there and be uninvolved with combat and not really worth a card. I can see the upside of her and was very happy with her against Eldrazi certainly, but she felt pretty replaceable. I don't know whether I want to dedicate two slots to cards with similar-ish functions (Banisher Priest & Jailer).

Priest is so much stronger instant speed out of Vial, and you can't do that with Jailer without burning the Vial. Jailer isn't as immediately soft to Dismember, though (as with basically any matchup really...) if Eldrazi becomes the monarch, you probably only have a turn or two before you can't come back from the card disadvantage.

Eldrazi would always rather have their creatures tapped sideways, so if you can't attack with a Priest because they have blockers, you're still getting something out of the body. The Dismember blowout potential is real though, for sure. Less scared of a StP blowout from DnT, most of the time Priest is going to be some sort of tempo blowout when you play it originally (e.g. Vial it in response to an equip), so even if they get their own little mini-blowout with a StP, it's not comparable to 'attack into an empty board, no wait, there's a Reality Smasher'.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

Priest is so much stronger instant speed out of Vial, and you can't do that with Jailer without burning the Vial. Jailer isn't as immediately soft to Dismember, though (as with basically any matchup really...) if Eldrazi becomes the monarch, you probably only have a turn or two before you can't come back from the card disadvantage.

Eldrazi would always rather have their creatures tapped sideways, so if you can't attack with a Priest because they have blockers, you're still getting something out of the body. The Dismember blowout potential is real though, for sure. Less scared of a StP blowout from DnT, most of the time Priest is going to be some sort of tempo blowout when you play it originally (e.g. Vial it in response to an equip), so even if they get their own little mini-blowout with a StP, it's not comparable to 'attack into an empty board, no wait, there's a Reality Smasher'.

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Oh I definitely am not comparing Jailer and Priest for the Eldrazi matchup - as I said, they have "similar-ish" functions in some matchups, but certainly there Priest is much better. I bring Jailer in, but he is nowhere near as efficient as Priest, definitely. He's just going to get TKSed out of your hand the majority of the time, and we'll be under significant pressure so Monarch isn't guaranteed. I'm more thinking about the 75 holistically, and whether Priest is better than a card such as Crusader, who is less dead in other matchups (I found Priest really terrible as a draw against combo and Miracles...) and in the Eldrazi matchup Crusader at least blocks and attacks relatively well. Probably a meta consideration anyway, as Eldrazi is not very prominent here.

I also really like your point about the D&T mirror which I've always felt is all about tempoing out your opponent with a variety of tricks. I agree that Banisher Priest is good there for sure, but tbh a lot of random cards are good in the matchup, since we cut so many terrible cards from our main. I at least have Relic-Warder to cover a similar slot I suppose, while also giving us some Disenchant utility, though they're not really too comparable.

ChemicalBurns are you really confident in your sideboarding against miracles? I think Stoneforge is 100% better than Mirran Crusader so I'm not sure why you're boarding it out. I've never boarded out Stoneforge because having equipment on boards puts so much pressure on them (makes every 1/1 a huge threat).



I just went 10-0 in MTGO League with the list I posted +1 Faerie Macabre -1 Surgical Extraction.

Match ups:

2-1 Enchantress
2-1 Grixis Delver
2-1 Death and Taxes
2-0 Shardless BUG
2-0 4c Delver
2-0 Aluren
2-0 BUG Delver
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Eldrazi
2-0 Miracles

Really happy with the deck, I can't say if 24 lands made the difference, but it sure felt like it did. I can't wait till Palace Jailer is on MTGO, it seems to be way better than Mangara and I was rarely really happy with Mangara.

Nice run.

Dodging Elves & Lands like a Boss.

I currently try out 24 lands, too.
It actually feels good, going with triple Cavern by now, maybe cutting one for a Mishra's Factory.

Already excited how Palace Jailer will do for You.
I am still collecting opinions and experiences with it (currently running 1 in my SB).

Dodging Lands? I would rather play Lands with Bahra's list than literally any of the decks he played. He has Surgicals, Cataclysms, Prelate in a matchup that wasn't even unfavored without those haymakers.

I agree on SfM, I never board any out vs Miracles, though I also like Mirran Crusader. In both cases you're presenting a real clock, which is what Miracles doesn't want to see. Crusader + equipment will almost always win with one hit.

I'd rather take out a Flickerwisp or a Mom. Flickerwisp is much worse with Vial offline, which happens often enough post-board vs Miracles. Mom is in a weird 'sometimes great, sometimes pure card disadvantage' spot. She's a little more powerful if you have more copies of Prelate to protect, though.

@Bahra
Good stuff! It's nice to see solid finishes while I'm collecting data for the GP in January.

@ChemicalBurns

I think Stoneforge is one of the best cards in the Miracles matchup. Getting a piece of equipment on board means every threat thereafter is a must-answer card. I would never trim one. I also board Batterskull out over Jitte. Jitte serves as removal for Mentor, Containment Priest, and other annoying stuff like Sulfur Elemental that might come in. Batterskull lines up poorly against Jace, so I'm not a huge fan.

I'm also wary of cutting all the StP vs Miracles. When I lose, it's often to an unchecked Mentor start.

@Iatee

I disagree on the Needle front. I love Needle vs Infect. Though Inkmoth can be handled with our lands, we can't afford to keep Port up every turn to stop it unless we also have Vial. Playing the Inkmoth lets us ignore ~33% of their threat base for a single mana. That's a great investment.

CJ is awkward in the Infect matchup, but it's probably fine. I bring it in about half the time; it really depends on where my sideboard is at for that given week.

Batterskull is great against Miracles and I don't think 'lines up poorly vs Jace' is a good argument. A resolved Jace is good in most situations vs us. When we're short on mana and don't have a Vial, there are many cases where there would be little difference between Jace killing a creature or bouncing one - the issue with an early resolved Jace is tempo, not card advantage.

Big picture, Bskull turns one card into two bodies, which is exactly the form of card advantage you want vs Miracles, because it forces their hand on Terminus. It's a Blade Splicer and I think nobody would side out Blade Splicer vs Miracles, even though the Golem token is also soft to Jace. Skull provides late-late game inevitability and a dead Skull that gets Flickerwisp'd gives you 7 power out of nowhere.

Jitte is pretty solid against Mentor, but little else. Cleans up a Snapcaster or a random sideboard card once in a while, but it doesn't provide consistent value, in some games the minus ability will have literally 0 targets. It requires a lot of time and resources to turn it into something that actually does a point of damage to the opponent and the lifegain ability is very rarely relevant.

I like keeping StPs against Mentor builds, but side out more and more of them lately as I think most people are drifting away from Mentor, or at least from the 4 Mentor builds. I think you kinda have to try to look for signs for what they're playing. Prelate also is very effective vs Mentor, as Prelate on 1 turns Mentor into a Grey Ogre and forces a Terminus. So the more Prelates you play, the less you need to worry about Mentor.

On Infect - I don't find myself losing to Inkmoth, I find myself losing to fast combo kills and to Agent. I don't think good Infect players keep hands g2/3 that are going to be particularly dependent on Inkmoth because they know that DnT is pretty well set up to stop the card. Inkmoth rarely presents a fast combo kill on its own because attacking with it sucks up 2 mana, so by the time they have them active you should have Wastes/Ports at the ready and possibly even a Flickerwisp somewhere, possibly more flyers if you play them. On the subject of Needle effects, I actually don't mind keeping Revokers in. Infect players are generally happy to open with t1 Hierarch because they know their mana will be under pressure. And unlike Thalia, Revoker's mana denial only goes in one direction.

On Miracles:

Concerning cutting Stoneforge, I fully understand its potency in the matchup - getting SoFI is game-breaking. However, drawing excessive Stoneforges makes the one after the second useless, since I've always been cutting Jitte and have never found it that useful in the matchup. As iatee has said, once you connect with it, it still doesn't provide that much value. Even then, the second Stoneforge just gets a BSkull, which in my mind is far from the potency of SoFI (but still reasonable). Basically, you want to resolve one Stoneforge, a second one is gravy and a third one is useless - which signals wanting it as a three-of, to me. Post-board where your opponent is trimming counterspells also makes the first one more likely to resolve too. I guess just having as few dead cards in a long, drawn-out game is what I'm trying to aim for, though I still feel we have to keep 4 Thalia due to how generally disruptive she is, especially backed up by Karakas. Crusader may be less potent than the fourth Stoneforge though, that is true.

Before I used to trim Mom in this matchup too, but the potency of Mom and Prelate on six is just too powerful to pass up, as the opponent is put into scrambling for their SB cards just like two Prelates, one on 6 and one on 1, respectively, does. I'll admit she can be mediocre as late-game plays though.

Agree on keeping perhaps two Plows in against 4 Mentor builds, but the two Mentor builds I played against I feel it's less necessary, despite the super man-plan they bring in. I find just my creatures in combat are very easily able to overwhelm opposing Mentors and force them into an awkward Terminus - as iatee said, especially with Prelate making Mentor look very sub-par. Having access to sort-of five pieces of incredibly flexible removal in two CJ and the two Recruiters + Jailer also served me well, and seems like a solid plan. Since we are the aggressor in this matchup (other than their tempo-esque Mentor draws), I feel reactive spells like Plow aren't too useful in broad scenarios.

Nonetheless, very interesting to hear everyone's point of view on this common matchup. I'm very happy to be wrong and will experiment with what has been proposed such as the fourth Stoneforge and keeping in the Jitte as Medea has been doing, and I'll see how I feel in the weeks ahead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ChemicalBurns

On Miracles:

Concerning cutting Stoneforge, I fully understand its potency in the matchup - getting SoFI is game-breaking. However, drawing excessive Stoneforges makes the one after the second useless, since I've always been cutting Jitte and have never found it that useful in the matchup. As iatee has said, once you connect with it, it still doesn't provide that much value. Even then, the second Stoneforge just gets a BSkull, which in my mind is far from the potency of SoFI (but still reasonable). Basically, you want to resolve one Stoneforge, a second one is gravy and a third one is useless - which signals wanting it as a three-of, to me.

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Did you look at the math or how does this signal wanting stoneforge as a three-of?

It's 40% to be in your opener as a 4 of, it's 31.5% to be in your opener as a 3 of.

With 4 copies you have to get 23 cards deep before you have a ~50% chance of having drawn 2 Stoneforge Mystics in a given game (not counting getting equipments out of your deck), that's a lot of draws. To draw 3 copies it's still only 30% chance when you're 30 cards down.

A card that makes our entire deck so good against miracles, is not worth cutting for such minuscule chances of drawing "too many" copies.