[Primer] Nic Fit

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Originally Posted by drekonja

If playing safekeeper, I would play titania too, since it is quite a good combo together

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The option is Thragtusk vs Titania, I'm very conservative on higher CMC cards when playing Dark Confidant, sometimes I'll play a single 5, other times I'll play none. I went with the single Thragtusk here because it's not that bad to flip to Bob due to the lifegain, and it plays really well with Meren. Titania could be a sideboard option, but I generally don't like doubling up on 5's. Safekeeper is stronger with Titania but I don't think that's a necessary interaction to include. If it's not Thragtusk in that slot, I think I would rather have Chameleon Colossus.

I've played a league with the list now, like usual it's a very strong list against combo (probably the best anti combo shell) but the creatures just aren't big enough to dominate the board in midrange mirrors.

It's feeling like I have a too much mana and too little power currently. I try to keep bob lists to 75 mana pips or less, and this list is currently clocking in at 72, which in my experience suggests I'm going too small. The Safekeeper plan hasn't been a good one, with the creatures as small as they are you're just not protecting something powerful enough, and if cuts are made for some larger more resilient threats the protection won't be needed in the first place. It also feels like it's too big a mana sink, giving up lands early to do something like protect a dark confidant has a real cost in deck speed.

Also, there's currently too much mana. Either Quirion #2 or STE #1 needs cut. If STE goes, then Meren's slot likely changes as well. I have liked Quirion Rangers ability to smooth low mana opening hands, but I never want to GSZ for it, unlike DRS. It also has a nice interaction with the Dryad Arbor openers.

On the subject of Arbor, I have mixed feelings on the second Dryad Arbor. In the league I just played (13 games), the second Arbor prevented one mulligan but also resulted in 4 lost cards later in the games due to not having enough basics to fetch. Thinking about things in those terms, it's trading approximately 1/10 of an early game card for 1/2 of a late game card. I'm not sure which is more valuable at the moment.

I'm also having second thoughts on Deed right now. Normally I like a 1/1 MB split of Deed/Deluge as my top end removal spells because it gives me the ability to kill anything with the right draw. But, I included a Golgari Charm in this list and it's handling a lot of the smaller/go wide issues that Deed is there for, and it handles enchantments too, and does it faster. I think I might prefer making that slot a little leaner. I'm pretty interested in Cast Down, like Deed it misses the big combo creatures, so that particular weakness of the slot still remains, but it casts a pretty wide net hitting every fair target except for TNN.

So for swaps, I have 3 pips to work with plus cuts. And I also want to keep curve in mind. For sure I want Tireless Tracker #4.

I think that maxes me out on three drops, but I am willing to add additional fours. In particular I like the idea of creatures that are good against Angler and Strix. So what I'm considering is Vine Mare and Chameleon Colossus in place of the one open slot and Meren.


These changes would bring my list to the following:
Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Eternal Witness
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Vine Mare
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Exploration
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Collective Brutality
1 Cast Down
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard 15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casaulties
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Massacre

I played bug nic fit before the ban in the shaman to mix success, and now wish to revisit my list. It was powerful before now is harder to interrupt. I thought I'd share with my head is at currently, so it can be used as a dart board for people who want to play Blue in their nic fit list. Thoughts and comments are welcome.

Deck: Legacy BUG Nic Fit 8-20-18.dec

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Creatures:17
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sylvan Safekeeper
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Fleshbag Marauder
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Leovold, Emissary of Trest
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Deranged Hermit
2 Mulldrifter
1 Thragtusk
1 Avenger of Zendikar
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

Sorceries:13
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
1 Diabolic Intent

Instants:3
3 Brainstorm

Enchantments:6
1 Evolutionary Leap
1 Sylvan Library
3 Pernicious Deed
1 Recurring Nightmare

Others:2
1 Liliana, the Last Hope
1 Nissa, Vital Force

Lands:19
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
2 Forest
2 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea

Sideboard:15
1 Gilded Drake
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Meren of Clan Nel Toth
1 Shriekmaw
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Force of Will
1 Submerge
1 Dread of Night

Took the new list through two leagues and 4-1'ed both, one had a chance at a 5-0 but things didn't break my way.

After shaking off the rust from having not played Legacy in months I mostly got back into the swing of things here (I'm still pretty bad at MTGO though).

At this point I'm pretty comfortable in saying Quirion Ranger is the real deal. All of my Quirion Ranger starts have been very explosive, and it definitely wants the 2 Dryad Arbors. Here's an example sequence I had against Sneak and Show earlier today.

I'm on the draw, we're in game 3.
Turn 1:
Opponent - Volcanic, pass
Me - Misty Rainforest, pass
Opponent - EOT Brainstorm

Turn 2:
Opponent - Island, Preordain, Ponder, Lotus Petal, pass
Me - EOT Fetch, get Dryad Arbor
Me - Bayou, Therapy for Force of Will, tap Arbor, play Quirion Ranger, activate Ranger, untap Arbor bounce Bayou, float green from Arbor, flashback Therapy sacrificing Arbor for some combo piece I knew about, use green for Carpet of Flowers. Goto second main use Carpet for BB, cast Dark Confidant

That may not seem like much, but from having cast nothing on T1 I was able to leverage it into 5 mana spent on T2, with 3 permanents in play (Carpet, Quirion, Bob), with a double Therapy used, and I didn't even have to give my opponent any Explorer acceleration.

I think Quirion Ranger is a very worthy replacement in any DRS slot provided you're willing to make the Arbor commitment. I really like the 2x Arbor here because I've been using them for a lot of tricks. Bouncing on a block, acceleration, GSZ targets, fewer mulligans, and surprisingly, with Quirion Ranger I'm frequently using them on T2 or T3 as Therapy fodder.

In the discord I posted a screenshot mid match against D&T, it was game 1. I kept a 1 lander on the play and went:
Turn 1:
Land, GSZ for Arbor

Turn 2:
Quirion Ranger, float mana, activate Ranger, untap, play land, float mana, Crop Rotation land for Phyrexian Tower, use other mana for Veteran Explorer, Tower saccing Explorer, get 2 lands, tap lands, use 3 mana on Tireless Tracker, last mana on another Veteran Explorer.

On turn 3 I then got to tower the other Explorer, make 2 clues, make another 2 clues from a fetchland, and draw 4 cards completely refilling my hand after having had a 7(!) mana turn 2.

These types of occurances are happening often enough that I think Quirion Ranger is a worthy manadork. It's good in any opening hand, and can pair with Dryad Arbors later in the game to be a very effective blocker (and Tireless Tracker enabler).

Similarly, Exploration hasn't made many appearances for me, but I have liked it when it's shown up. I think Quirion Ranger is the better 1 mana accelerant, but I like the way combinations of cards can stack.

With the recent changes, I feel that the mana/threat balance is a little better. But, midrange has been difficult, so I wouldn't mind being able to beef things up in the sideboard, I want blocks to be difficult. I'm interested in Rancor, Rhonas, or Nylea as options.

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Originally Posted by SMRiggin

Anyone else heading to Richmond for the GP Next weeekend?

Shawn

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Hey Shawn!

I will be in Richmond and am new to nicfit. I was on turbo depths for a while but don't think it's well positioned post ban. I found an interesting list and honestly haven't had much time to test. Just going to roll with it. Here it is...


Main Deck

2* Bayou

3* Forest

1*dryad arbor

1* Marsh Flats

1* Phyrexian Tower

2* Plains

2* Savannah

1* Scrubland

1*Stirring Wildwood

2* Swamp

4* Verdant Catacombs

1*Volrath's Stronghold

2* Windswept Heath

23 Lands

2* Baneslayer Angel

2* Carnage Tyrant

1*Eternal Witness

1* Meren of Clan Nel Toth

1 Nissa, Vastwood Seer

4* Siege Rhino

1* Sigarda, Host of Herons

4* Veteran Explorer

16 Creatures

3* Abrupt Decay

1* Altar's Reap

3* Sword to Plowshares

4* Cabal Therapy

1* Diabolic Intent

2* Green Sun's Zenith

2* Vindicate

3* Pernicious Deed

1* Ob Nixilis Reignited

1* Vraska, Relic Seeker

21 Spells

60 Mainboard Cards

Sideboard

2* Containment Priest

1* Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

1* Reclamation Sage

1* Regal Behemoth

1* Scavenging Ooze

2* Surgical Extraction

3* Thoughtseize

2* Relic of Progenitus

2* Sorcerous Spyglass


Let me know if you wanna meet up at the tourney.

-Cory

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Originally Posted by Brael

Took the new list through two leagues and 4-1'ed both, one had a chance at a 5-0 but things didn't break my way.

After shaking off the rust from having not played Legacy in months I mostly got back into the swing of things here (I'm still pretty bad at MTGO though).

At this point I'm pretty comfortable in saying Quirion Ranger is the real deal. All of my Quirion Ranger starts have been very explosive, and it definitely wants the 2 Dryad Arbors. Here's an example sequence I had against Sneak and Show earlier today.

I'm on the draw, we're in game 3.
Turn 1:
Opponent - Volcanic, pass
Me - Misty Rainforest, pass
Opponent - EOT Brainstorm

Turn 2:
Opponent - Island, Preordain, Ponder, Lotus Petal, pass
Me - EOT Fetch, get Dryad Arbor
Me - Bayou, Therapy for Force of Will, tap Arbor, play Quirion Ranger, activate Ranger, untap Arbor bounce Bayou, float green from Arbor, flashback Therapy sacrificing Arbor for some combo piece I knew about, use green for Carpet of Flowers. Goto second main use Carpet for BB, cast Dark Confidant

That may not seem like much, but from having cast nothing on T1 I was able to leverage it into 5 mana spent on T2, with 3 permanents in play (Carpet, Quirion, Bob), with a double Therapy used, and I didn't even have to give my opponent any Explorer acceleration.

I think Quirion Ranger is a very worthy replacement in any DRS slot provided you're willing to make the Arbor commitment. I really like the 2x Arbor here because I've been using them for a lot of tricks. Bouncing on a block, acceleration, GSZ targets, fewer mulligans, and surprisingly, with Quirion Ranger I'm frequently using them on T2 or T3 as Therapy fodder.

In the discord I posted a screenshot mid match against D&T, it was game 1. I kept a 1 lander on the play and went:
Turn 1:
Land, GSZ for Arbor

Turn 2:
Quirion Ranger, float mana, activate Ranger, untap, play land, float mana, Crop Rotation land for Phyrexian Tower, use other mana for Veteran Explorer, Tower saccing Explorer, get 2 lands, tap lands, use 3 mana on Tireless Tracker, last mana on another Veteran Explorer.

On turn 3 I then got to tower the other Explorer, make 2 clues, make another 2 clues from a fetchland, and draw 4 cards completely refilling my hand after having had a 7(!) mana turn 2.

These types of occurances are happening often enough that I think Quirion Ranger is a worthy manadork. It's good in any opening hand, and can pair with Dryad Arbors later in the game to be a very effective blocker (and Tireless Tracker enabler).

Similarly, Exploration hasn't made many appearances for me, but I have liked it when it's shown up. I think Quirion Ranger is the better 1 mana accelerant, but I like the way combinations of cards can stack.

With the recent changes, I feel that the mana/threat balance is a little better. But, midrange has been difficult, so I wouldn't mind being able to beef things up in the sideboard, I want blocks to be difficult. I'm interested in Rancor, Rhonas, or Nylea as options.

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Are you still on straight BG? Any chance we could get a list?

Also, to answer your question:

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If you want 2 power with mana development, why not Nissa?

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Nissa is definitely an option I'm looking at. I think the prevalence of Wasteland is making it harder to be 3 colors (not impossible by any means, just harder) so I'm interested in going straight BG. Nissa seems to be really good when mana is stable, allowing the ultimate to be reasonable.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

Are you still on straight BG? Any chance we could get a list?

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Yes, it's straight BG. Here's my next iteration of the list, I made a couple swaps since the last post. I'm contemplating the Liliana, it has gotten me out of a couple jams but I could see an argument for Deed in the slot.

Land 22
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Bayou
4 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Karakas
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures 19
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Quirion Ranger
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tireless Tracker
1 Rhonas the Indominatable
1 Eternal Witness
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Vine Mare
1 Thragtusk

Spells 20
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Crop Rotation
1 Mirri's Guile
1 Exploration
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Golgari Charm
1 Collective Brutality
1 Cast Down
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Liliana, the Last Hope

Sideboard 15
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Duress
1 Toxic Deluge
3 Lost Legacy
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Marsh Casaulties
1 Pernicious Deed
1 Massacre

Sometime this week I'll be running this (maybe with the Liliana/Deed swap) through another league. Also interested in a Tower of the Magistrate in the SB, and perhaps removing Stronghold from the deck (or moving it SB) in place of another colored source. Massacre is a bit narrow, so that's the first slot I would look to for a cut and if I want a second cut I would probably look at Maelstrom Pulse since it's so slow.

I have loved Liliana, but I always had at least 2 Deeds alongside it. I'm curious to see Golgari Charm maindeck...it's that good in your metagame?

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

I have loved Liliana, but I always had at least 2 Deeds alongside it. I'm curious to see Golgari Charm maindeck...it's that good in your metagame?

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Golgari Charm was a concession to the mana curve while still wanting to have the versatility of Deed.

I've learned a thing or two about these low curve high velocity lists, and one of the rules I've come up with is that I shoot for 75 mana pips in my deck. Too far under that and the deck drifts towards not being strong enough on the board, while too far above that seriously impacts your card velocity.

So, as a result, I had 2 pips I could afford on a slot. I wanted something that could take care of cards that Abrupt Decay could not. Golgari Charm allowed me to go wide and deal with things like Delver or Pyromancer, or TNN, and various other X/1's as well. It also allowed me to take care of some enchantments that Deed would be too slow to deal with. It has been good against Search for Azcanta, Sneak Attack, Omniscience, Moat, and others. The regeneration mode has occasionally been relevant as well. I wouldn't say it's the best card in the 76, but it has pulled it's weight.

I've been playing it on MTGO and it seems strong enough there.

Cutting it for a Deed wouldn't be the end of the world, but the deck is leaner and meaner in my opinion with it.

+1 for golgari MD.

This card is insane in Legacy.

That makes sense, especially when talking curve. I always found the 2-mana slot thin in Nic Fit; I either had great 1-mana plays (and doubled up turn 2) or I was trying really hard to get to 3+. I strongly encourage you to keep Liliana TLH even if you do want a deed. I would cut something else to make room, especially with 21 creatures maindeck. That's good odds you'll either mill over something to get back or just already have something to get back in the graveyard. This works very well with Meren (which is strangely absent from your list? Instead Vine Mare and Chameleon Colossus?)

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

That makes sense, especially when talking curve. I always found the 2-mana slot thin in Nic Fit; I either had great 1-mana plays (and doubled up turn 2) or I was trying really hard to get to 3+. I strongly encourage you to keep Liliana TLH even if you do want a deed. I would cut something else to make room, especially with 21 creatures maindeck. That's good odds you'll either mill over something to get back or just already have something to get back in the graveyard. This works very well with Meren (which is strangely absent from your list? Instead Vine Mare and Chameleon Colossus?)

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I tried Meren in this first, it's well positioned right now, but it's not good in this list because it doesn't really put enough power on the board. In one of my 4-1 leagues it was in there, and it even won me a game but the bigger things help a lot more.

My mana curve is a lot different from the typical Nic Fit list, not counting GSZ which is too variable. It's
1 - 14
2 - 14
3 - 8
4 - 2
5 - 1

I agree that the 2 slot is often a bit thin, but I work hard at trying to fill it. The 2 drop slot is the most important slot in Magic, decks that are weak on 2's are often weak overall.

I'm only willing to cut a non creature 3 for a Deed so that narrows the list to Toxic Deluge vs Liliana and Deluge offers much more utility.

I picked up veteran explorers last week to try out nic shit tomorrow. List below from what creatures it seems I have...need some cuts? I want to optimise summoning trap so the only non creatures in the md are trap (which chalice actives btw), cabal therapy, and possibly abrupt decay since it can't get countered.

2 swamp
4 forest
1 wastes
3 verdant catacombs
4 Llanowar wastes
4 Ancient Tomb
1 phyrexian tower
2 high market
2 overgrown tomb
1 eldrazi temple

4 veteran explorer
3 phyrexian revoker
2 scavenging ooze
2 kitesail freebooter
2 tireless tracker
2 rhonas the indomitable
3 deaths shadow
2 abyssal persecutor
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 thought not seer
3 kalonian hydra
1 drana kalastria
1 grave titan
4 cabal therapy
3 summoning trap

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 engineered plague
3 abrupt decay
2 innocent blood
4 Thoughtseize
1 carpet of flowers

You need Therapies, for sure.

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Originally Posted by Mr. Safety

You need Therapies, for sure.

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Whoops...yes definitely. I fixed the list.

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Originally Posted by kinda

nic shit

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At least you named your list right.

In all seriousness though Nic Fit works b/c it's consistent. It's consistent b/c of GSZ and library manipulation like Mirri's Guile/Sylvan Library. In your case I'd just go for a straight BG list with a green creature suite. It'll at least make your manabase much more robust. Run stuff like Sakura-Tribe Elder and Nissa, Vastwood Seer to help your mana development. For the topend of your manacurve you can go for something like a Thragtusk and a Carnage Tyrant. If you opt for a non-green topend at least include a Fierce Empath in your list so you can GSZ for it.

There are a lot of interesting things going on, like the 6 maindeck discard hatebears, the ramping and varolz+shadow synergy/combo, but I agree with Echelon. Add some elements of consistency. Summoning Trap can probably be great, but I'd start by changing it into 3 Green Sun's Zeniths and considering having 2 Summoning Traps in the sideboard. I guess the question is if you even need them at all. The decks that will counter your creatures, you already have 6 discard hatebears to pull out their counterspells and.. I don't know, Summoning Trap seems excessive. Also, Sylvan Library is not only great by itself, it's probably greater still if you play Death's Shadow. So I would offer the list some much needed card draw and increase the usefulness of Death's Shadow in the list. If you have 3 Green Sun's Zeniths in the list, you don't need 3 Varolz. So skip 2 Varolz for Sylvans. Varolz doesn't need to survive, he just needs to enable scavenge once.

GSZ also lets you pull down on Hydras. And you have zero removal, I think once you played the list 1-2 times you'll want to change the Revokers into Decays or something. Liliana of the Last Hope too perhaps...

Thanks for the replies! I definitely agree that gsz plus sylvan library would be you know "objectively better". I ran both last week along with pattern of rebirth/devoted druid/kalonian hydra to a 3-1 finish. I'll try trap for fun this week but then cut it when I run this again.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kinda

I picked up veteran explorers last week to try out nic shit tomorrow. List below from what creatures it seems I have...need some cuts? I want to optimise summoning trap so the only non creatures in the md are trap (which chalice actives btw), cabal therapy, and possibly abrupt decay since it can't get countered.

2 swamp
4 forest
1 wastes
3 verdant catacombs
4 Llanowar wastes
4 Ancient Tomb
1 phyrexian tower
2 high market
2 overgrown tomb
1 eldrazi temple

4 veteran explorer
3 phyrexian revoker
2 scavenging ooze
2 kitesail freebooter
2 tireless tracker
2 rhonas the indomitable
3 deaths shadow
2 abyssal persecutor
3 Varolz, the Scar-Striped
4 thought not seer
3 kalonian hydra
1 drana kalastria
1 grave titan
4 cabal therapy
3 summoning trap

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 engineered plague
3 abrupt decay
2 innocent blood
4 Thoughtseize
1 carpet of flowers

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Have you thought about helm of obedience? To go with sb leylines.

Whitefaces borrowed nic shit tonight for the lolz and went 1-2. He beat dredge, lost to reanimator, and lost a crazy g3 to dragon stompy. His oopponent plays chalice on 1 on turn 2. He then on his turn two, throws veteran explorer into the chalice and double summoning traps getting thought knot seer and dralna kalastria blood chief...but still loses. List is above with some changes, he added green Sun's Zenith, abrupt decay, and thoughtseize md...moved summoning trap to the sb and cut 2 Varolz mostly.