Somehow it doesnt sound that bad. I mean even the ability to "counter" daze is awesome. U get ur 1st Turn Lackey otp and opponent loses a landdrop
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Somehow it doesnt sound that bad. I mean even the ability to "counter" daze is awesome. U get ur 1st Turn Lackey otp and opponent loses a landdrop
I'll try it just for the hell of it, cause I'm sassy like that... FU daze!!
Hey guys. I've cheating on Landstill to be here... :eek:
I've developed an interest in Goblins lately, and have decided to give the mono-R version a shot here. I've seen a lot of lists in this thread, and with the help of my teammate Eric (Media314r8), I have a list that I'd like to ask for comments/refinement. Please keep in mind this is for a blind metagame, but I do have SB questions towards the end.
// Lands
18 [BD] Mountain (2)
4 [REW] Wasteland
// Creatures
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
4 [EVG] Goblin Matron
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
4 [EVG] Goblin Warchief
4 [EVG] Gempalm Incinerator
2 [10E] Siege-Gang Commander
1 [PLC] Stingscourger
3 [EVG] Mogg War Marshal
// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 4 [AT] Pyrokinesis
SB: 3 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 3 [AT] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
All right. So, I guess I'll start with the basics. To start with, 22 Lands seems to be +/-1 to the general consensus here. The first 12 Goblins are, of course, what this deck runs off of, and those slots are locked. I'm not sure if I want to run Instigator or not, and if I do, I'm not sure what to take out. Let's assume that I don't want to drop money on Instigators for now. After that, besides the 4 Aether Vial, there's a lot of flex.
- 4 Chieftain / 4 Warchief: I think these guys are the Lords and are the backbone of this deck. Both guys grant haste, and are pretty good for the "oops, I dealt lethal" type win. I like Warchief, but I don't know, is he worth 4x slot in this list? He's great if you can sneak him in t3, t4 --> War Marshal, PD, etc. Cuts the card advantage guys down a little too which is nice.
- 4 Gempalm Incinerator /1 Stingscourger: I think there's a good possibility this could be 3/2, but I like the Incinerator and the card you get back from it. Thoughts on this? I know GI gets downgraded to a cantrip against something like, t1 Kird Ape or an empty board, but with the War Marshal its value increases in this list.
- 2 Siege-Gang Commander: Is this enough? My fear is not to drive the curve up (I've seen lists with 3-4), as I want every card to be as alive as possible. I know people lean more towards 23, but with 1 less mountain, I feel like 2 is the correct call here.
- 3 Mogg War Marshal: No explanation needed. I think this card is wonderful, and I think a lot of people here do too. Extra bodies, ramps up Incinerator, Piledriver, and the gang. Also pretty nice with Chieftains in play.
- SB slots #1-4: 4 Relic of Progenitus: Standard GY hate. Ichorid is still alive, I can't think of anything else GY dependent that could be relevant besides Loam decks (hold a mountain and a vial, right? :smile:) and Reanimator decks. Crypt is obviously still available in this slot, but Relic will cantrip and make Goyfs/Geese x/1's again.
- SB slots #5-8: 4 Pyrokinesis: Takes care of hordes of small guys, another way to power Lackey through,
- SB slots #9-11: 3 Boartusk Liege: Additional Lord-age.
- SB slots #12-14: 3 Goblin Tinkerer: Just a draft, and possibly overkill, but seems to be the choice for artifact hate. Is Goblin Vandal another possibility here?
- SB slot #15: 1 Goblin Sharpshooter: Pretty good card, dominates x/1's, and probably does pretty well in the mirror.
So that's it. As you see, I have no combo hate here. So here's my question: is it worth it to devote any slots to combo hate? I know Thorn of Amethyst is a popular choice here as a 3 or 4 of, and Pyrostatic Pillar as well. I also have:
- Specific color hate, Pyroblast/Red Elemental Blast (Merfolk? Landstill? MUC?).
- Specific color hate, Anarchy (kills Moat, Humility, etc).
- Zo-Zu, the Punisher: seems useful against decks that are dependent on land manipulation / higher mana curves (Loam comes to mind, so does Landstill).
- Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker: Probably a "win-more" rather than useful card. I don't think I'm including this dude. (Danger of cool things!)
- Goblin King: I mainly say this for the Zoo matchup. Another Lord and the ability to sneak whatever isn't PtE'ed/Helix'ed/Lightning Bolt'ed in.
- Lightning Crafter: Kinda-sorta a Sharpshooter, but less broken. The other reason I like this guy is because of the Champion ability, hide a Ringleader to recover from something like a Firespout or WoG.
- Umezawa's Jitte: Shrinks their dudes, makes your dudes bigger. I don't see the issue, except that it kills your Ringleader rips.
- Pithing Needle: Can buy a lot of time against a lot of decks. Choices I can see myself naming: SDT, Survival of the Fittest.
- Chalice of the Void: Combo hate. But probably more or less, could be a way to slow the bleeding against Zoo/Burn, or just to shut off StP. Also shuts down Vial/Lackey, but you probably are playing this after t1.
- Vexing Shusher: I like stuff that can't be countered.
- Moon effects (Magus or Blood Moon): I like Magus a ton, especially if he can be vialed in. Shuts down some decks entirely if they're not being careful.
- Non-Gobo artifact destruction (Shattering Spree/Smash to Smithereens, etc): Self explanatory. I mean, probably don't see a ton of stuff like Stax, but if you do...
And last, sideboarding: I've read about some of the strategies in Tournament Reports. Obviously you're taking out your goblin body count (or are you? Do you ever take out Vial?). So at what point does, say, does it hurt to add in hate because you're killing your Ringleader rips? This kind of applies for putting Pillars/Thorns in the SB and putting 7-8 cards in. Is it really worth it? Any comments or thoughts? I think I covered all the bits, and of course, thanks for any constructive comments.
--M
Nice list, but please explain why no Warren Instigator? I would go -1 mountain, -1 incinerator +2 stingscourger MD. SB: -2 tinkerer + 2 anarchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
Im still not a huge fan of WI, but i think thats just me :tongue: I find him just to slow, i know he is a must counter, etc and when he lands he wins.. but i still find him slow and a (little) win more.
~Maarten
With 8 Haste Lords I think one Stingscourger is a mistake......
When I play Warren Instigator, I consider him more as a bait.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
Having a bait for counterpells and spot removals open opportunities to your other important goblins.
Baits also forces an inexperienced players to play thier mass removal spells early as well.
Worse comes to worst, Warren Instigator sticks in the field and actually help you win the game.
Well, as I said, I don't know what I could take out for him. WI is a great card, don't get me wrong. I just think that :r::r: and losing out on Lords, Utility Goblins, etc, would probably hurt this deck a little more. I tend to agree with (nameless one) in the sense that he does draw out the fire because of his potential once he hits the board. Although, it would be great to live the dream with a single Matron --> goes in after first strike damage, find a bomb, he's in, go.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1maarten1
I can definitely do -1 GI +1 SS, but I don't think going under 22 lands in this deck is a good idea.
Too little or too less? :eyebrow:Quote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
You NEED to run instigator, there is no reason not to play 4, dually in mono-red... yeah pretty much a staple now... also, probably need at least 2 stingscourger with 8 hasters...Quote:
Originally Posted by Morbid-
3 Siege Gang Commander is the new hottness, it is ridiculous with 8 lackey effects... SOLID SOLID SOILD man
*EDIT* you can safely run 21 land in a build with 8 lackey
i'm sort of new to goblins, what's the consensus on r/b goblins versus mono-red?
from what i can gather, if there's a lot of LD via waste effects, mono is the way to go. but if there aren't? or if it's a blind meta? is mono just more explosive or something? it seems the last few pages are mono-favoring, but i don't see why r/b has fallen out of favor.
Read the thread... it's all throughout the last 10 pgsQuote:
Originally Posted by stacker
I disagree with this portion of your statement. You still want to hit your 4th land drop on your 4th or 5th turn. Going as low as 21 lands and you will struggle to do that, and you will end up with unplayable cards in hand (like one of the three Commanders you advocate).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gibsonmac
Tested extensively in a dozen or so sanctioned tournaments, no problems, I've never had to or wanted to 'hard cast' a SGC with 4 mana... in fact the deck does everything you want it to with 3 land in playQuote:
Originally Posted by arebennian
I think if you're curving down to 21 then you're running 4xSkirk Prospect, curving out and cutting lands for more SCGs is probably an option. Tho' honestly, how many SCGs do you really need? You get to drop an SCG every time you get to drop a Matron first, I thought you'd run less instead of more *shrug.*
no prospector, very similar to FoulQ's list, -2 port, and 8 hasters, 8 lackey's... I curve out by having 8 lackey effects... works very nicely... having as many SGC as possible to drop off of t1/t2 lackey effect consistently is re-frickin-dicilousQuote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I strongly advise against cutting lands. Goblins are very manahungry, and you want to play land from turns 1-4. Math dictates that you need to run at least 24 manasources to accomplish this.
In the old Goblin thread, there was even talk about going up to 25 manasources.
Btw, I can recommend SSG from my limited testing. Helps at the start (where you need the most help) and somewhat prevents flooding in the lategame, since you only run 20 "real" lands. Having an additional creature has also been relevant.
I'm actually not convinced that Instigator is the way to go in MonoRed. Which matchup does it make better?
I found Marshall and Scourger to be of greater use, especially against Goyfs and Zoo.
all of them... period.
Btw, can someone direct me to matchup analysis? Just looking for more information in addition to Tourney Reports and whatnot, and how to board (if I have those cards). Thanks.
I strongly disagree with this. If you are fetching SGC with Matron a lot of the time, then you are playing this deck incorrectly. He is probably target #2, but far and away target #1 is going to be ringleader.Quote:
Originally Posted by BreathWeapon
I like 23 lands. I don't know how playable 3 SGC is with 21 lands. YES, the deck can survive on 21 lands. The difference is, I like to use my wastelands.
Here's what I wrote about instigator earlier and I stand by it,
"I didn't mean to say 'Oh, take out your weirdings and put instigators in. They replace each other,' but I can tell why it might be conveyed like that. What warren weirding does is kills off blockers. Well, no duh. More subtly, it allows goblins to continue the aggro role. That's why warren weirding is not good against zoo or merfolk most of the time. Because we are not trying to continue an aggro role, we are trying to survive to the late game to use our card advantage engines that those decks do not possess.
Now instigator. He does the same thing: allow goblins to continue to be in the beatdown - in the driver's seat, so to speak. He forces the opponent to think twice, sort of like piledriver, but he is a god by himself and with others, unlike piledriver. Does that mean 4 of? That's still up for debate. I run 3 as of now because I don't find him to be very good in the aggro matchup and my meta has quite a bit of merfolk/zoo right now (I now play the 4th copy in the sideboard)."
+1Quote:
Originally Posted by FoulQ
You don't need 4+ lands to cast SGC (I used them simply as an example of cards that may be dead cards in your hand), you need them for Ringleader.
Running 21 lands, surely you are reliant upon a Lackey effect or vial and if one fails to stick, you just can't recover???
Fetching Ringleader over Commander is more or less removal dependent, if the opponent isn't MDing Fire Spout then Commander > Ringleader just for ending the game faster.
I've been really, really happy with this
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Skirk Prospecter
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Stingscrounger
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
17 Mountains