You seem to forget the 2 Pridemages and the 4 GSZ to fetch them...Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
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You seem to forget the 2 Pridemages and the 4 GSZ to fetch them...Quote:
Originally Posted by ET1
I would say that the key cards to these matchups are not Stoneforge or Jitte, but Mother of Runes and Knight of the Reliquary.Quote:
Originally Posted by nicoleptik
What Stoneforge & Mystic do is killing Mother with Jitte and plowing the Knight (not the other way around, no jokes here).
Then, Qasalis and Abrupt Decays can destroy Jitte, but Mom(s) will be already dead, and you gain an upper hand.
They're all important--the key part is to know which one of the packages your opponent is preparing against, and then leaning on the other aspects.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
For example--if they go equipment hate focused, then shift the focus to be about moms and fatties. If they don't run heavy hate--punish them with Jitte.
The matchup usually follows a similar script.
Early build up of mana and moms.
A threat resolves on both sides--followed by a board stall as neither is able to push through.
A player is then able to find a way to push through for damage--and if an equipment is involved the match ends quickly after.
Figure out how you plan to break the stalemate, setup your hand to fit that scenario, look for your opening, and when you think you've got it you overextend and pounce.
So I'm running 4 drs and thinking about the fifth dork to run. Is it a consensus that Noble is strictly better over birds?
I wonder how often exalted vs producing black mana matter in the end since I run 2 decays main...
How many black producing lands are you running? I ran Noble Hierarch because I had two Bayou and a Scrubland I could fetch, black mana was rarely an issue except the games where I had to sideboard a lot of black cards (such as Infect, for Thoughtseize and Zealous Persecution). I don't think I used Exalted very much though; I only ran it because I already owned it, and had I not owned it I would've happily run a Birds.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
I run the same black lands as you do and I do not own a noble, hence my pondering..
I would like not to spend 50$ on the card only to find out it's not even optimal.
In that case I'd stick with a single Birds of Paradise. You still have Qasali Pridemage for exalted if you want it. The majority of the time you're going to GSZ you'll want a Deathrite Shaman anyways; I only ever fetched a Hierarch when there was no chance of a land in the graveyard the first few turns of the game.
I run Birds of Paradise in my list specifically over Noble Hierarch (I already own 4)Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
Although my black sources are less than yours (1 Scrub 1 Bayou, 1 sideboard Bog) I find that I rarely need the Birds for black mana specifically except against Death and Taxes.
However, the flying has been super essential in everything from blocking Griselbrand (with the help of Mother of Runes) to being able to use SOFI against elves after they've decayed the Jitte. It was from a friend's suggestion when I complained to him that I wanted another mana dork but I also needed more evasion (I had cut Scryb from my list at this point and was feeling the pain of no flyers) in which he suggested Birds of Paradise. I've sworn by it since.
In a more combo heavy metagame where damage is more important than evasion I would replace it with Noble, but if you're a more midranged meta where evasion is a premium--Birds is great. Also great against Bloodmoon/Taxes/RUG type decks where you can't guarantee the black mana game 2 and 3 from the non-basic hate.
Short tournament report, went 3-3 (Started 3-0 :frown:) in a 60 man tournament this weekend.
My list:
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Mother of Runes
1 Noble Hierarch
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Sylvan Library
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Forest
1 Plains
1 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Karakas
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Swamp
1 Horizon Canopy
SB: 1 Sword of Light and Shadow
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Banishing Light
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Garruk Relentless
SB: 1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
Round 1: 2-0 vs Miracles
Not much to say, I don't think my opponent did a great job of piloting the deck against me.
G1 he kept one land + top, and whiffed for a while, and I had wasteland ready when he hit another land.
G2 I surgical terminus, and land a stoneforge with Sword of Light and Shadow and beat him down from there. From the surgical I knew he had a council's judgement in hand the whole game, but he never cast it. Maybe he thought pro-white stopped it?
Round 2: 2-1 vs Eldrazi
Knight is so good in this matchup, churns out wastelands and gets way bigger than their threats.
I lost G1 by forgetting about eye of ugin's ability, and he got ulamog and exiled two giant knights on my side, opening up the way to beat me down.
G2-G3 I get knights online early and make sure to keep his mana base down this time...
Round 3: Landstill
G1-G2: I get a thalia down early in the face of a top, and get wastelanding. My opponent never got to get going either game. I thought I was playing against weird miracles with lots of non-basics. Had to ask my opponent after the game what he was up to.
Round 4: 1-2 Miracles
Really exciting and close games came right down to the wire in G3.
G1 I assemble gaddock teeg and mother of runes, and have enough removal to blank monastery mentor. This game was quite long maybe 30mins?
G2 Game goes for a while, but he has all the answers and finally I lose to mentor + double top.
G3 Is very fast, we only had 6 minutes to play it. I get some early threats into play and start beating down, they get terminused, I redeploy, keep going and draw a surgical. I decide to proactively surgical the terminus, but in response he activates top and draws the terminus that was right on top! He then kills me on turn 5 of extra turns with a mix of mentor and entreat.
Learned my lesson there, if I'd just waited for him to go for a terminus I could have responded to the trigger with surgical for a pretty big blowout. I had a deathrite on board, so blockers would not have cut it for him, he finished the game on 5 life.
Round 5: 0-2 RUG delver
G1 keep a slow reliable hand in the dark. He goes turn 1 delver, flips on turn 2 and it's all downhill from there, I get killed very fast, and all my threats get bolted/dazed.
G2 I keep scavenging ooze thalia jitte deathrite, which I thought was pretty good, but he had the ancient grudge, blows up the jitte, and I don't draw any other form of interaction, so similar story to g1, lose to flipped delver + TNN. At least the mongoose never got to attack because of the scavenging ooze :frown:
Round 6: 0-2 Eldrazi
G1 he gets the beatdown on and I never got to do much, thoughtnot discarded my knight in hand, and I only drew another way too late.
G2 I'm kicking myself about. I have two giant knights brick walling him + a scryb ranger, have the potential to wasteland him to oblivion but want to keep my mana base somewhat alive, as I had batterskull and another knight in hand. Too late I think of all is dust, which he drew the land for that turn, and wrecked my board. My lands were savannah, cradle, dryad arbor, so I went from 6 mana to 1 mana, so I could never deploy the knight. I then died very fast to two reality smashers.
Overall I felt like I had outs in every game, and the deck is a blast to play, so quite happy with my weekend even if I made some mistakes that cost me a shot at top 8 (I had the best breakers in my bracket so I think something like 4-1-1 might have been enough). Live and learn right?
Exactly!Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
Did you play in Mol, Belgium as well? :D I saw one guy playing Zenith Maverick 3rd game against Miracles, maybe it was you.
I've been playing a 6-round tournament and went 3-3 as well. Won vs Storm (2-0), Elves (2-0) and UR Delver (2-0), while lost to Pox (0-2, OMG that Collective Brutality), Dragon Stompy (0-2, WTF is this xD, Chandra, Torch of Defiance is literally insane) and BUG Delver (1-2, my mistakes, exposing to Daze & keeping bad hands).
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...4380&type=card http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...7683&type=card
I think I could make it a 4-2 if I played a bit better, but 5-1 and top8 was probably beyond my reach given the matchups.
Decklist:
// Recruiterless Vial Maverick
// 60 Maindeck
// 7 Artifact
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
// 28 Creature
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Sanctum Prelate
2 Scryb Ranger
3 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Mirran Crusader
// 4 Instant
4 Swords to Plowshares
// 21 Land
1 Bayou
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Karakas
1 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gaea's Cradle
// 15 Sideboard
// 5 Creature
SB: 1 Containment Priest
SB: 2 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Tireless Tracker
// 1 Enchantment
SB: 1 Choke
// 6 Instant
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Zealous Persecution
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
// 3 Sorcery
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
Lessons learned:
1) There's much fewer BUG decks in our meta than I have expected and there are quite a lot of fair decks, including D&T, Maverick, various Delvers and Miracles. So, I will drop 2x Mirran Crusaders towards 2x Tireless Trackers (still need to be tested, but first tests showed them to be decent for CA while being rather okay in combat, especially when pumped).
2) Whatever we do, we have quite some matchups that are very hard to beat, like Nic Fit, Pox or Stompy. Winning tournaments is directly connected to not facing those on the way, or having good hands while our opponents don't :p (Pox is quite doable for the Zenith version though).
3) Damn planeswalkers :D I think of adding something (1x) that gets rid of them to the sideboard. Currently deciding between Council's Judgement, Maelstrom Pulse and To the Slaughter.
Hah! Yes, I saw someone was playing vial mav, must have been you!Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
I've been testing out banishing light in the side for show and tell and planeswalkers, and I brought it in each time it had a target and never saw it, so I'm not sure if it's any good.
I'm pretty sure I've been the only one playing Vial Maverick, so yes :)Quote:
Originally Posted by DoomRabbit
I don't really like Oblivion Ring/Banishing Light because of popularity of Abrupt Decay (and Wear//Tear & Council's Judgement for Miracles, Qasalis for Maverick and so on and so on). I like to get rid of things like ones I mentioned above forever :D
P.S. I was standing behind the Miracles player and saw his hand when you went to turns in the 3rd game. It was really impossible to beat him with such hands (he had loads of lands, Brainstorm, Swords and Terminus in hand, then topped and saw Entreat + Mentor). And you didn't even draw a 3rd land :p
I figure at least against miracles that there's only so many things they can wear/tear/judgement. With equipment, needle, sylvan library, and banishing light (+ the two walkers for council's judgement) there has to be a limit to what they can deal with.Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
Truth is a draw would have been good and probably the correct thing to play for, but a win would have sealed top8 and I didn't think he could kill me in time so I went for it. Hindsight ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by aspsnake
I went with 5-3 with Levold's Maverick this past weekend at SCG Baltimore Legacy Classic. Will write tournament report later.
Wins: Tin Fins, Miracles, BUG Delver, Jund, Reanimator
Loses: Storm, Burn, Shardless.
With Rallier, could Ghost Quarter see some inclusion here?
Was watching modern during the SCG Team Open and a player was mana screwed, but ended up GQ'ing his own land, got a basic, Rallied to get a fetch back, and got a little back in the game from there (he did this like 3 turns too late and lost anyway).
It's a corner case for mana fixing and not particularly a good one, but the Rallier does give the GQ a little extra utility. Extra card to hit the yard, not a negligible effect against something like Shardless, Delver, or Sensei's Top, and with Rallier you can recur the one copy you have.
I don't think that Ghost Quarter is that amazing here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Claymore
Our favored matchups (Delver, Eldrazi) become even slightly more favorable, while our bad matchups (Elves, Miracles, Dragon Stompy, Pox) couldn't care less.
How necessary is Batterskull? Being that we are a Knight of the Reliquary deck, how essential is having a 4/4 lifelink vigilance in our maindeck?
For a while most lists didn't run it, I believe most green sun's lists still don't run it. I don't run it and haven't really felt a huge need to run it.Quote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
I loved it against Eldrazi but that was about it. It was a sideboard card for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by TMagpie
My personal meta is getting a bit overrun by BUG decks so I'm breaking out NOverick. Prog and Wurm the best two targets probably?
When has getting a Daze into a Natural Order been an effective strategy vs BUG?) I'd say that most BUG decks are very grindy, and 1-for-2 cards (like Sylvan Library, Tireless Tracker) show good results vs them, while 2-for-1 (Natural Order, Force of Will) are quite bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
There's also a fair amount of non blue BG and such around. It's just the way to go over the top.
I see your excitement, but I have to state that the times when Natural Order into Progenitus were amazing are long ago. With Terminus and Council's Judgement played in a considerable percentage of decks, from Miracles and Bant Post to Death & Taxes and Bant Stoneblade (at least in sideboard), it has lost its "I pull it off - I win" thing. Not to say it's rather slow (t5 win at best, I believe?) :pQuote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
It's also disrupted by popular Containment Priest and Gaddock Teeg, not to mention that many decks can win before turn 5.
But if you have any success with NOverick, let us know, times proves us wrong time to time ;)
My favorite way to go over the top of BUG decks is Stage/Depths.
Perhaps Lightning Greaves could be effective as a way to protect Knight for a couple turns while he sets up the combo then give Lage haste, or perhaps running a Crop Rotation package to turbo out the Marit Lage?
Greaves should be good vs miracles giving each creature haste
Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk
I would go more towards hate cards and stuff that's naturally strong against BUG: DD/Stage (okay), Scryb Ranger (pro-blue is big, the lines of play it does with Knight and Mom are very strong against BUG), Wilt-Leaf, Mirran Crusader, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
NO would be a tough call -- as BUG is going high counters and low with discard. The solution is to play shit that messes them up (RIP, anti-blue, anti discard, nukes their mana) or straight ignores their plan (ie, shroud, pro-colors).
I would also advocate for Sanctum Prelate -- as it shuts down a chunk of their "problem" cards like X=1, 3, or 4.
Pelate on 0 is also good against Shardless, as it prevents their way of recovering from the 1:1 trades.Quote:
Originally Posted by Warden
Greaves makes any creature into a must answer. Either that or force them to 2 for 1 themselves by killing Greaves and then the dude. It seems like more and more ppl have been cutting Batterskull, in that case the "I win" I move to might be the DD combo. I have never tried it so I don't know how OP broken it feels. I feel like Greaves is worth testing out (esp in a NO build too). I mean isn't Hexproof style stuff why so many of us run Sylvan Safekeeper in addition to Mom? I know I run it as a "hastey" Mom protection saver, and Mom is more a "force through blocks" too. Dunno.Quote:
Originally Posted by ironclad8690
I have played 3 outta my 5 league matches (work is busy busy) so I haven't had a ton of time to test. So far I have been very pleased with Abzan Beastmaster. I know we are really tight on 3 drops as it is, which makes it harder to justify him. I know he has been a gem in sideboard games where we go late and grind for a while. Being able to draw free cards vs something like Death & Taxes, or a free draw vs. like a Delver stalled on X/2's. He digs super deep in those games when he lives. I may start running Mirri's Guile again just to see how the "upkeep" synergy plays with our fetch effects. I know I have more then once just started cracking Knight lands to filter the deck a bunch in even matches to draw into more action. Being able to see three cards, draw the best, shuffle the others away and draw a fresh card... seems very strong in grindy matches. Almost feels like we are playing Blue ;)
What exactly are you cutting for Beastmaster? I'm running 2x Sylvan Library atm and could be considering going 1:1 split if he is that good.
Also, Mirri's Guile seems interesting in the current meta of Leovolds.
I am at work so I don't have the full build on me. I am running the Vial version, 3SFM 3 EQ. 2 Qasali, 2 Scryb, 2 Revoker, no Teeg main. I don't think I am running any Library type effects right now. I made Beastmaster a 2x of in my current league run. I feel like against combo the 3 drops don't matter as much (we need Thalia & disruption) but against fair decks he has been nice. I have been thinking about the 1:1 split on him and a Mirri's Guile/Library (I think he plays nicer with Guile, and it's cheaper). I don't recall if I have a Scooze main. If I were to try and pull of the top of my head...Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpt-Qc
22 lands (no arbor)
11 spells
4 Vial, 4 Swords, 3 Equipment
28 dudes (iirc)
2 Scryb Ranger, 2 Qasali, 3 SFM, 4 Kotr, 4 Mom, 1 Safekeeper, 3 Thalia, 2 Revoker, 4 DRS, 1 NHierarch, 2 Beastmaster
Here I just had a thought. I might suggest something crazy but here goes: Could we not play Vryn Wingmare as a 1 or 2 of? It seems it would be much better in Maverick than it was for it's brief time in DnT since we can reliably get her out T2. We could really use more flyers and it helps our lackluster taxing plan. Has it even been tested?
It's probably better in the vial version but I think there's something to do with this pegasus.
I'm currently testing 2 Tireless Trackers in my Vial list and having quite some success with them online, will go to a local Legacy event soon and report how it went. Given a bit of time, they with Knight and Gaea's Cradle just wreck fair decks [emoji14]. And, unlike Beastmaster, it's another fatty :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by oSeabass
Went 3-1 to get a bye for Saturday Quarterly win a mox with NOverick. Only lost to bad miracles man because he drew very well. But NO won me a game against DnT, a game against Junk Pod Nic Fit, and a game against Mono Red Sneak attack. Might play it Saturday. Deck is basically the normal shell but Teeg in the side, a 6th mana dork, a couple Fauna Shaman, 3 GSZ, 3 Knight, no stoneforge package and 3 NO with Wurm and Prog main.
Could you pls share a list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
I'm coming from Death & Taxes and am trying out Maverick with Vials. I wanted to splash green for pridemage and rallier and black for turn 1 interaction in the form of discard.
I am testing without Deathrite as he has anti-synergy with KoR, Vials and Revokers (who often names Deathrite).
I have a heavy focus on winning equipment wars (rallier, pridemage, revoker) and mana denial (revoker, ports, rallier).
I'm hoping it is good, but have only a small sample size yet.
Creatures:27
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Recruiter of the Guard
3 Renegade Rallier
Spells:10
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
Lands:23
1 Forest
1 Karakas
4 Marsh Flats
1 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
2 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard:15
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Surgical Extraction
4 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Zealous Persecution
1 Choke
1 Garruk Relentless
Tbh, splashing green/black doesn't add much to D&T as much as it takes away the manabase consistency.Quote:
Originally Posted by autonom
Playing Maverick is another story though. Few things:
1) DRS is bonkers. He has absolutely no anti-synergy with vial and you really need him in games when you don't draw vial. I would play DRS over Revoker any day.
2) Scryb Ranger is bonkers too. Synergy with Mom & Knight is insane, and the thing has flying.
3) Ports are just not viable with 3 colors. Maybe 1, but I'd say play 0.
You might enjoy playing BW taxes deck though :)
That's a false anti-synergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by autonom
While Knight wants lands in the yard, and Deathrite takes them away, both of those cards are good at winning the game, and together they can win quite quickly. They can give you plenty of mana, search up Wastelands, and hate on the yard. When you're done doing that, they combine to create a scary fast clock.
The cost of shrinking Knight by 1 is mostly irrelevant.
And asp is right. Scryb is very good with tapping creatures, and Port is too clunky for this deck.
Playing NOverick at the win a Mox. Got a bye. Wish me luck:
4 Deathrite Shaman
2 Birds of Paradise
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Qasali Pridemage
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Thalia, Heretic Cathar
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scryb Ranger
1 Fauna Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
1 Progenitus
1 Worldspine Wurm
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Natural Order
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
2 Savannah
2 Bayou
1 Scrubland
2 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Gaea's Cradle
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard undecided as of an hour before the event
Love your list! Good luck! :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Megadeus
That NOverick list looks fun as hell, hopefully I can catch you on the stream today. I was unfortunately unable to make the drive down to Atlanta this morning :frown:
What's the Fauna Shaman for, purely to get Progenitus or Worldspine Wurm shuffled back into your library if you happen to draw them?