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Meh, some condescension is a fine way to make people think before posting so they can answer their own silly questions before bothering others with them. How else will people ever learn when you just cater to their every whim..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Seriously, if, as a Nic Fit pilot, you manage to oversee the relevance of GSZ when wanting to replace one creature for another you're doing something very, very wrong. It's one of the main reasons why this deck even exists.
No, it's not. Some people are new to the deck, or simply overlook it by mistake despite knowing what GSZ does. It's just a really shitty attitude and will put any potential new Nic Fit players off from posting in the thread. I used to be quite active and read the thread compulsively, but this kind of crap has put me off completely.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
You are not alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
:cry:
Or you just learn to role with the punches, how to hold your own and get your knowledge and thought processes up to par. How do you expect to improve when you throw in the towel as soon as you face any adversity? Sheesh.
Besides, it has nothing to do with the person asking the question, it only has to do with the question itself. The question's stupid, the person asking it isn't. It's crucial to understand that. That's how discussions work (and why you can have them and still go for a beer together afterwards).
Role with the punches? Hold your own? You are truly deluded. Who exactly is throwing in a towel when faced with adversity?Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I'd be interested to know if anybody appreciates this attitude. We're not trying to 'weed out' any bad players, so why be so condescending? Be friendly and inclusive. By all means tell people why a suggestion wouldn't work, that's why we have forums like this, but there's no need to be rude about it.
Going by the posts so far, you & rubble are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
To answer your second question - the general populace in its entirety is probably against this attitude, mostly b/c it's easier to fool around w/ kid gloves and kitchen table stuff than to come up w/ anything even possibly remotely competitive. People bitch just as much when you take your time to explain why their idea is horrible in the kindest of ways b/c in their minds it's the most amazing thing ever. And do they repay the courtesy of a well thought out argument? Nope. It usually boils down to "Meh, it works for me". Very productive.
That's the attitude we should strive for, right? "Meh, it works for me".
Edit: Bonus observation: Only one person had to resort to a personal attack during this exchange. Guess who that was..?
And I'm the problem. Lol.
But people who decide to play nicfit should learn/know the main cards by 100% before actually playing the deck and gsz is one of them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
OK, Echelon has a 'very direct' way to answer silly questions but instead of starting a never ending discussion you could have answered: 'wow, my bad, I can't read [emoji12] but thanks for reminding me'
Gesendet von meinem ONE E1003 mit Tapatalk
That sort of attitude doesn't bother me, it answered the question. I can see where it upsets some people, but it's the internet a thick skin is pretty helpful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
I think a big part of it is the decks reputation, it's mainly seen as a casual deck or Legacy EDH because of the singletons, budget too because of the manabase. That leads to people playing the deck as if they're playing EDH and doing fun things like themes over what's actually effective. The reality though is just the opposite, it's pretty tough to be a fair creature deck in Legacy and to be successful you need to make use of all the tools available.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
In that context it's helpful in my opinion to occasionally harshly remind people that some ideas just aren't very good, and I say that as someone who puts forward more than their fair share of bad ideas.
I wouldn't really call it a personal attack, but I'll accept it given that it's your attitude I have a problem with. The condescending tone really isn't necessary and is very off-putting. If others don't care about it, fine, I'll rest my case. But I'd advise you to check out the Infect thread. Plenty of people ask about bad cards there and the main posters explain to them why they'd be a sub optimal choice sensibly without the need to be rude or condescending. It creates a much better environment and encourages more people to post ideas without the fear of getting told off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Sure, they should learn the cards, but people overlook things or are new to the deck and don't know everything, that's the reality of it. GSZ isn't played in every style of Nic Fit either.Quote:
Originally Posted by cherson
It wasn't me that made the suggestion...
Fair enough. It's not that it's 'upsetting', just rather annoying as this thread used to be quite pleasant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
Eh, I play Nic Fit because I like beating good decks with Grave Titans. I get that some people want the deck to be competitive, but it's still a tier 2 strategy at the end of the day.
I can agree with the tone change of the thread, I think it's because the suggestions have changed though, there's also more viable directions to take things lately. Just about everyone is on their own unique strategy at this point. Also the deck has been attracting a lot of people that are brand new to Legacy lately. In fact if you go check out the Reddit Legacy forum, Nic Fit is the second most popular archetype with only Miracles getting more written about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Part of people being new to Legacy means teaching them the truths of the format. People locally might just play casual "cards I own" decks and call it Legacy but the format itself is a lot different from that. Real Legacy requires a baseline amount of interaction in every deck, or a plan to win before the opponent can interact.
As far as it being a T2 strategy goes, the deck does occasionally enter DTB status, and I would argue that the better builds are on par with anything in T1.
Sneak is the first version in a long time where I think the deck could legit end up in DTB. Nic Fit has always had the "problem" of being a metagame predator -- you could play vs RUG Delver every round and cruise to the top 8, or you could play vs random garbage or random combos and just die early in the day. This is part of why I feel so strongly about the Sneak version: it has a strong, proactive gameplan when presented with random nonsense. It doesn't matter what durdling you're doing, I have a plan, I know what I'm doing and how I'm going to win the game, and then it just comes down to preventing you from interacting with that plan // not dying while I execute it. Sneak is the best Nic Fit vs combo that I've ever found. It has a swift clock that can race some combo hands, backed with a good amount of disruption. Yes, sometimes they have the nut and without Force of Will we just die. Shit happens. But vs any "reasonable" combo hand, or any combo hand where they need like two turns to set up, we are more than capable of competing. The strength and speed of Sneak Attack has a lot to do with that. Blue Nic Fits and White Nic Fits have historically had more protection or lock, but they lacked the ability to close the game and combo decks inevitably regain their footing and go off -- they're built from the ground up with beating blue decks with multiple Forces, cantrips, Dazes, Pierces, etc in mind. They have to be able to recover. We can't afford to play that game and hope to beat combo, and without any hope of beating combo, Nic Fit was doomed to rot in T2.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
This is how I feel too. My comment on being a tier two deck wasn't meant to be in a specifically negative way, it's just the place it's sitting at the moment because of the reasons you've shown. Junk seems to be the most played version of Fit currently and it struggles against Miracles too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
Your Sneak Attack version looks very promising though, I'm trying to trade into the Sneak Attacks currently to play it.
This is the problem I run into. I like my current CA focused build as much as you like Sneak. It beats everything but combo, but the combo plan is pretty weak. I've been trying to address that, but locally combo isn't very big so there's a lack of opportunity to test it. I've been big on Tidehollow Sculler for the past few months as my additional discard of choice, basically trying to use cards that can disrupt for a turn or two while also letting me hit the opponent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
I do however feel like I have a positive Miracles matchup. Maybe that's due to the quality of the Miracles pilots I go up against, or maybe the build actually works. I'm not entirely sure but I know I beat the deck a lot more than it beats me.
As far as combos go, I've been trying out Mentor/Top. It hasn't been a runaway success but it has been a reasonable clock.
I used to take pride in this deck and this thread but that has long since went by the wayside. I don't play the deck anymore because I cannot stand MTGO Miracles.format and I have no where to play locally irl. I don't post anymore because I feel like my opinion isn't as up to date as other who are actively playing it. I will say that being aggressive and negative will not make this deck nor this thread better. If you are hellbent on the deck only being tier 2, that's your prerogative but some believe otherwise and if you are trying to squelch their belief, that makes you the absolute opposite of helpful. Think before you post because people undoubtedly look to this thread for suggestions and help and we want to be portrayed in a positive light, not bickering amongst ourselves like a playground of children.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
That's a pretty big leap from what was actually said.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
I said the deck is tier two because it is. I didn't say it can't move up. Just because you believe a deck to be tier one doesn't make it so, you need results to back it up from large tournaments. Look, I love the deck to bits and have been playing it for years, but let's not get too delusional.
I do however believe Sneak Fit can be a pretty big player, so there's that.
I've seen some aluren lists lately running therapy/vet. Im wondering if anyone here has explored that avenue from the nicfit side of things. Arianrhod has been working diligently to fold Sneak Attack into viability in jund im wondering if there is a 4 color bug list with alluren we are just overlooking entirely?
@ echelon-On a side note- hostility from posters pushed me out of the elves thread for suggesting exploring natural order before the printing of crater hoof and while not correct at the time printings made it a reality. Its no ones responsibility to police the thread and if you dont like the questions or suggestions being put forth there is no obligation to respond let alone with any sort of negativity. Just remember no one trolled you away for pushing summoners egg for a year....
I think everyone is interested in BUG, it's a topic that pops up every few weeks. No one has really figured it out though. I just got my Underground/Tropical in the mail today so I have a proper BUG manabase now. I'm definitely interested in trying something out, but my usual problem is that I have more ideas than I have opportunity to test them, so they sit around for awhile before I can. On the testing front though I've got my League and we just started up local Legacy nights again so maybe things will improve there.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
The difficult part of BUG in my experience is that FoW and GSZ don't play well together and that's a conflict that needs to be solved before moving forward with the deck. FoW leads to a Baleful Strix build I think, while GSZ is more traditional. One idea I have right now, which is just in the planning stages (haven't even made a full list) is to borrow the Perilous Research suggestion from a couple weeks ago, and see if it's possible to make a Shardless BUG style deck with the Nic Fit engine. What makes Nic Fit so successful in my opinion is that we have the best manabase in the format, and consequently I think that's a major hole in decks like Shardless and Delver (and that if they were less greedy they would be far more formidable than they are). Being able to address it would be great. Essentially Shardless Agent and value with rock solid mana. The inclusion of GSZ confuses me though because GSZ+Agent is a bit of an issue but GSZ is what makes our mana work in the first place.
I'm not placing blame upon you in regards to my previous statement. I am saying we should be looking for the ceiling and not become complacent with where we are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
Sneak fit sounds awesome.
There are many reasons why Nic Fit hasn't managed to break out of tier 2. Some of them are self-enforced. Mostly, Nic Fit is difficult to both build and play well. It requires patience and makes some very risky assumptions that most players won't. Similar to other ramp decks, like MUD and 12-Post, it has an awkward angle that it participates in the game. The inception of Miracles also meant that all slow decks need to find inevitable win conditions because people can recover from disruption. GSZ actually makes us slower overall in exchange for consistency, which means that what we find off GSZ has to be very efficient. This is the reason ScapeFit has succeeded at a large scale while "Big Rock" tends to struggle. SneakFit is in that heritage. If Shardless is the only Rock deck that has managed to survive as a deck to beat, what chance does Abzan or Jund really have realistically?
At the end of the day, Fit needs to be able to win before its opponent gets back into the game. Despite the claim that our top decks are better, it's really that our ideal top decks are better. Veteran Explorer and Cabal Therapy are still poop in an empty board.
I think this mainly comes down to a misunderstanding in the format with most players. Because we have mana ramp, people play higher mana cards, but higher mana cards just create bigger blowouts from Daze, FoW, or even Swords to Plowshares. That's the trap that ramp decks fall into, the problem is with mana disruption which Legacy has a lot of, ramp decks just fall apart. Because of this, I don't think you actually want big creatures, instead you want lower drops. Sneak Fit follows this principal by effectively topping the curve at 4 and using Sneak to play anything bigger. I've been doing the same with a lower curve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Basically, in Legacy you should use mana acceleration to increase card velocity rather than to increase card size that way if your mana gets disrupted you can still do some things.
I feel your pain. Im in the exact same situation and also sometimes come back to this thread and facepalm hard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricardio
Need to find the motivation to test Sneak Fit online at least a few times though (glad punishing fire has been adopted and Bellower is a great innovation, keep it up gentleman)
@Echelon.. Honestly, you post like a teenager who's just discovered internet forums and thinks themselves smarter than they actually are. I find it annoying and this is a personal criticism. But whatever, I was once that guy too when I was a teenager; you're free to post how you like and people are free to comment on it.
I first started out on Elves! too. Didn't let it get me down though. As for Summoner's Egg, the funny thing is that the Sneak Attack build currently going around follows almost the exact same skeleton as that deck, with a few different cards that fulfill the same functions. It even took a couple of pointers from it (like Fierce Empath no. 2). So there's that. And I did expect to be badgered about it, if that's any consolation.Quote:
Originally Posted by uncletiggy
I fear that in my case it's more of an occupational hazard. Telling other people that their ideas are stupid is a part of my job (and so is getting told that my ideas are stupid). The reaction I'm used to getting (or giving) after some discussion is "Oh, well alrighty then" and after that we move on to whatever is next. No need to linger or to turn it into a storm in a glass of water. It's not personal, it has nothing to do with the person that comes up with the idea, it has to do with the fact that the idea does not help with what we're trying to achieve in whatever we're doing at that time. That's how it works. It's all about having a certain mindset. Excuse me for expecting that when I take a simple poke at something, the person who came up with the idea I'm poking at understands there's no need to take that personal and is capable of coming up with a proper response of their own.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jain_Mor
@Dissection: Whenever I'm being a dick I'll start throwing some smileys in there to lighten the mood. Let's see if that's of any help. I was hoping to see Ulysse's opinion on this, by the way, since his post is what led to my comment (that triggered you etc.) in the first place.
I think you are confusing realism and elitism. It seems to be the opinion of most of your peers that your reaction to the suggestion of Rune-Scarred Demon was unnecessarily harsh and generally unhelpful. You also appear to be further teasing people with your "jokes". You are responsible for your actions and it's not within your power to ask people to act reasonably if you don't. If you expect to be treated a certain way, don't be surprised if it comes true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
And do you hear me bitching about it in any form or way..?Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
No, you don't.
Do I care, in the slightest?
No, I don't.
Really.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
This doesn't sound like someone who doesn't care. This sounds like someone who's trying very hard to convince people he did nothing wrong and everyone should move forward.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Being correct and being right are not the same thing.
It's owning up to my behavior rather than choosing to just gloss over it. It's "This is how I'm wired, take from that what you will". If I'd felt the need to just move forward I just would have shut up for a day or 2 and that'd be the end of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
I'm not sure you are owning up to anything. "That's the way I am" isn't a justification; it's a rationalization. If anything, that's the definition of glossing over it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Whatever floats your boat buddy.
I agree. Nic-Fit has good match-up with some of the Tier 1 deck (D&T, Shardless Bug, Eldrazi Stompy) but awful match-up aganist other tier 1 decks (Ant, R/G Land, Miracle Control).Quote:
Originally Posted by Dissection
The deck is a metacall deck when everyone want to play fair. That is why it's Tier 2 and never can be Tier 1.
Thinking about the Sneak-Fit builds.
- Usually when I had Zenith @ 6 available, I was finding Bellower rather than Primeval Titan, since fetching an Inferno Titan is a pretty good way of providing game ending threats.
- When I had Sneak, my first tutor target was usually Emrakul (naturally) and the backup kill condition was Inferno Titan. Bellower into either is a ton of damage.
- I never really had much use for Primeval Titan because of this. If I'm going for the kill, there are better options, and if I'm going for value I'd rather Zenith bellower since it presents a better clock and more utility - it's already a 3-for-1 or better, going for the grindy lategame with Primeval doesn't feel worth it when we can make a 6/5 and a 6/6 which are already super lethal.
- Our fatties being green isn't actually necessary. This is because any time we would Zenith for them, we can zenith Bellower into fatty instead, giving us an additional 6/5 and 1/1 (and no colour issues) in exchange for delaying our actual haymaker for a turn. This is pretty much always the right choice in my experience - Zenithing a fatty and getting it removed is way worse than Zenithing Bellower and getting it killed. Primeval Titan is no faster a clock than Bellower anyway, let alone Bellower into Inferno Titan. Unless you're playing Wolf Run, which is nice but I don't think the Grove manabase can handle it, when the two Towers are better choices in a list with Primeval Titan. I'm leaning towards running a second Badlands in the slot, since more red sources is nice for Sneak activations, but we are low on black sources at the moment.
- Cutting Primeval Titan would also allow us to drop Volrath's Stronghold for a different land, which has the major benefit of improving our (slightly clunky) manabase, since we're trying to fit Groves into a three colour deck which also plays multiple colorless lands and 6+ basics.
With that in mind I've been thinking about switching Prime Time out for something more proactive. Making a load of tapped lands to try and grind people out (while leaving your grinding plan vulnerable to Wasteland and Swords) just doesn't feel strong when you could just kill them in two turns instead.
The problem is that there isn't a creature that fits what we want to do quite right. What we want is something that kills people if we cast it into a board of Bellower + Empath + nothing, and is relevant off a Sneak Attack. If we Zenithed @6 last turn, then we have 7-8 mana available so 8 mana is our upper limit for targets. That gives us Craterhoof Behemoth, who gives us a swing for 21 when cast undisrupted into a board of Bellower + Empath. Unfortunately for us, Craterhoof is pretty unimpressive when used with Sneak Attack.
To be honest though, I think our best bet might be to just run a second Woodland Bellower in that slot. If we want to grind games against sweepers/terminus, we can do so pretty thoroughly, and against pretty much anything else we can already make Inferno Titan. It also gives us another 'instant kill if I have sneak attack' card in the deck, beyond the 2 Empaths, 4 Zeniths, Emrakul, Sidisi and the first Bellower.
It might be worth considering Empath targets which are relevant when we don't have Sneak Attack, however. We already have lethal very reliably off of a lot of cards if Sneak Attack is active - as above, we have 9+ 'you lose' cards in the deck which combo with Sneak.
In particular, I'm thinking of cards which we can tutor up which are relevant prior to our sixth land drop. Naturally Empath can fetch us up a chain giving us board presence, but the only disruption we have available is Inferno Titan, which can be a little slow, and doesn't interact with combo decks very much.
Although it doesn't work with Sneak, I'm leaning towards running Distended Mindbender somewhere in the 75. If we make an Empath off of three mana, next turn we can feed the Empath in and cast Mindbender for 2BB, so we curve out perfectly. It doesn't trigger off Sneak (although it's still a 5/5 if we need it), but it does hugely disrupt fast combo which I get the impression remains one of the deck's weaknesses.
You can always opt for a Gurmag Angler. Empath into a 1 mana 5/5 is pretty good (and can be pulled off over 2 turns w/ just 3 land as long as your graveyard is big enough) and Bellower -> Empath -> Angler isn't horrible either. It does nothing w/ Sneak Attack though (other than function as a surprise blocker).Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Sorry if I'm adding literally nothing to the Jund discussion, but I haven't had the time to keep up with the thread and you people are intriguing me and convincing me to build the deck online. Anyway, no love for grave titan? The only reason I don't play him in junk is that he isn't green, but since in jund the "sneak bellower into empath into fuck you, opponent" line is very possible, why don't we play a card that says R: make a 6/6 with haste and 4 2/2s for a total of 14 power from a empty board?
This choice fits into what Navsi said, which I agree with to be honest.
If we have Sneak Attack, we'll never tutor for Titan since we can just get Emrakul instead. If we have him in hand, he's worse than the other options since Bellower is lethal and Inferno Titan has more utility.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
If we don't have Sneak Attack, he's okay, but we already have board presence (since Bellower leaves us with spare bodies) from other areas, so we may as well spend our 6-drop slots on creatures with other types of utility.
Basically, Bellower - Empath - Inferno Titan gives us enough bodies that our opponent's only outs are a) Sweeper and b) kill us. In addition we get damage and a fast clock.
Bellower - Empath - Grave Titan gives us even more bodies, but our opponent's outs don't change from a) Sweeper and b) kill us. However we get a slightly slower clock, and no attached removal.
Interesting analysis, I guess I'll have to read quite a bit of pages of this thread regarding this build. Thanks for sharing your opinion.
The card I really want to play in this build is Ink-Eyes. Fetching her up with Bellower/Empath means we can Ninjutsu them back out for Ink-Eyes and get another ETB trigger, which is awesome, and taking your opponent's creatures is absurd against any midrange deck. Unfortunately she's really unreliable and absolute garbage against decks with low creature counts.
If only Silent-Blade Oni didn't have blue in its mana cost, or Throat Slitter / Okiba-Gang Shinobi cost 6 mana rather than 5...
Isn't demon of the dark schemes a similar yet somewhat better card than ink-eyes?
They both work only against creature decks, but the massacre effect seems a decent bonus?
Or massacre wurm..mmm now I want to try all this so bad
Inferno Titan is the better sweeper.
I was more interested in using the ninjutsu to get more triggers out of Bellower and/or Fierce Empath. Ink-Eyes just happens to be the only ninja that costs 6 or more and doesn't require blue mana.
IMO the fatties list is something like this:
Core:
- Emrakul
- Woodland Bellower
- Inferno Titan or Dragonlord Atarka
Sometimes / meta dependent (pick 1-2):
- Wurmcoil Engine
- Distended Mindbender
- Second Woodland Bellower
- Second Inferno Titan / Dragonlord Atarka
- Primeval Titan
That's unless someone can come up with a Godo, Bandit Warlord combo that's good enough, but at the end of the day he dies to Bolt which isn't a good position to be in.
Someone suggested worldspine wurm, have you intentionally omitted it in your list (because without SA he is useless and doesn't win on the spot like emrakul)?
If you're looking for a Empath target that can win through things that hate on emrakul (say a protected ensnaring bridge) you might consider flayer of the hatebound #dredgetech
That's not going to work. Flayer only triggers when a creature enters the battlefield from your graveyard.Quote:
Originally Posted by JackaBo