[Deck] Death and Taxes

So it's not just what you're cutting, but what you're cutting FOR, and what other options would be better. For those who don't want to cut SFM, what would you take out instead?

The funny thing about the new cards, it looks like Recruiter of the Guard ends up being the best card. Sanctum Prelate has of course made a place for itself, but, like Bahra, I find myself being satisfied with one. I still like having some Serra Avenger alongside Mirran Crusader, but Mangara of Corondor is even better thanks to Recruiter.

Despite how awesome the card is, Palace Jailer shows that cmc 4 is still tough in Legacy if you can't cheat things into play.

the problem with Avenger is that it still does to Bolt, Decay and StP.

Which is 100% of the removal in this format apart from Massacre and Pyroclasm/K.Return

Overall it dies to every playes attacking creature like Delver, Goyf, Angler, Mentor/Mentor tokens.

I would else play Vryn Wingmare.
Double Thalia, flies, recruitable.. definitly to be tried there

Which would you guys rather have, a single Vryn Wingmare main or an Aven Mindcensor?

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Hi. First time poster here. I wanted to chime in on my thoughts on this ongoing conversation about the general configuration of this deck.

So when the new Conspiracy 2 cards were spoiled I immediately jumped at the chance to play Bahra's old RW Taxes deck as that was the deck I wanted to mainly play.

My treatment for DnT prior had been Enevoldson's build which can be described as a strong preference for turn 2 two drop creatures (he was running 13 at the time), and boarding in a single Relic of Progenitus as a way to freeroll drawing into silver bullet card post-board.

Not many similarities but were places for a (now) newbie getting back into Legacy to start.


So here are my thoughts as to why I have picked Red on which ended up suiting my needs for my meta pretty well.

My main goal is to beat Lands, Sneak and Show, 12 Post, Miracles, Omni-Tell, TES, Elves and the mirror.

Reasons to run Magus of the Moon would be to beat Shardless BUG post-board, have any sort of game vs Infect, lock out Lands completely (ever had anybody look for Barbarian Ring with Gamble or Intuition vs you?), shutdown Gaea's Cradles completely.

My real reasons for the red splash were for Pia and Kiran Nalaar and Sudden Demises after board. Nothing new but it was a direction I had personally wanted to explore when a manabase friendlier functional reprint of Imperial Recruiter was released.

Pia and Kiran Nalaar. I have strong positive opinions of this card. Sometimes when you build your deck to stop your opponent from being to play Magic with these new cards you begin to realize that your new cards are very adaquate for doing just that but are still pretty loose to have when fighting on the dude bash step. When you devote so many resources to just protecting your creatures and your possibility to win the game, sometimes you fall short because you either aren't cementing the game or your opponent is nursing an advantage. Part of the remedy to these problems involve resolving equipment and creatures. Both of those things involve a lot of investment and probably requires that you make the decision to deal with the competing decisions of either equiping a creature or playing a new creature. Fortunately Aether Vial is in our deck so these decisions rarely come up but the hardest parts of the game for us usually does not involve an active Aether Vial. The answer to why I chose Pia and Kiran is obvious: I know for a fact that the floor and ceiling of this card is very high. I have stabilized it during topdeck wars in fair match ups and utilized many factors involving the features of this card in conjunction with my current board states to turn the corner or cemented an advantage at a low cost. Ever tap out for the card with a Cavern in play vs a Delver deck? Anything they do against you extracts a concession on their part or they lose. I have even turned the corner with this card vs a turn 3 EtW for 14 Goblins from TES while on the draw (but to be fair an active Vial helped). Also P&K is a very scary threat for your opponents to deal with post board.

As for running Sanctum Prelate, I believe two copies of this card is only correct if you cut a Mother of Runes. I have always treated my 2nd Prelate as a Mother of Runes with haste. But the dude bash step is still of a problem but the plan is to stop your opponent from furthering their board state while you look for a way to fix your inability yours at the moment, whether it be resolving a piece of equipment or playing another creature.

And finally the 24th land. I had toyed with that idea for quite a long time actually but it appears that my games post board had been awkward when I had 3 Caverns of 23 lands. Not being able to cast Council's Judgment and Gideons on time has costed me games before. My greedy proposal for this problem if you're bent on running 3 caverns is to put an extra white source in the sideboard and move any maindeckable sideboard card to the maindeck (leaning towards Canonist). I cut the 3rd Cavern from my deck because of this and havent looked back because 2 Caverns had been completely sufficient and that my main problems are non-counter based decks. That and I feel no anxiety in terms of tempo vs these types of decks with Pia and Kia in my deck but am open to the idea of cutting my 3rd Plains for a Cavern of Souls and putting a Horizon Canopy in my SB.

Here is my list for reference, which looks a lot like Sean Brown's deck, but I can only assume two reasonable individuals can come up with the same ideas.

4 wasteland
4 rishadan port
2 cavern of souls
3 karakas
3 windswept heath
2 flooded strand
2 plateau
3 plains

3 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
4 phyrexian revoker
3 recruiter of the guard
3 flickerwisp
2 sanctum prelate
1 mirran crusader
1 magus of the moon
1 pia and kiran nalaar

1 batterskull
1 umezawa's jitte
1 sword of fire and ice
4 swords to plowshares
4 aether vial

1 magus of the moon
1 manic vandal
2 ethersworn canonist
2 containment priest
2 sudden demise
1 relic of progenitus
1 rest in peace
1 faerie macabre
1 path to exile
2 council's judgment
1 gideon, ally of zendikar


So how I play this deck is that it is a Monowhite DnT first with a freeroll for Magus of the Moon and Pia and Kiran Nalaar. You should be fetching Plains early if it will be your only White source and drawing the red cards have never really hurt me preboard. I kept Stoneforge and the entire equipment package in in order to tell my opponent to play kill on sight magic so that I can maintain tempo or score a free win. I am reluctant to switch out my 4th Revoker for Spirit of the Labyrinth because I believe Sneak and Show and Storm is the litmus test of viability in Legacy. I would consider cutting a Prelate for a Spirit but that is it.

The sideboard is the second reason why I am enthusiastic about splashing Red. Manic Vandal has been fantastic vs the mirror, Shardless BUG (tell Jittes, Strix and Null Rods to take a hike), and a slew of other card I would expect to see after board. Sudden Demise has been ok. I have recently started boarding Sudden Demise over Rest in Peace as a way to maintain parity vs Shardless aiming for a two for one for a mix of Strixes, Shardless Agents and DRSs while your spot removal is mainly aimed at Goyfs. The 2nd Magus of the Moon is for whatever MUs Magus is obviously good in. The rest should be standard but entirely possible that I should be running 2 surgical extractions over the lone RIP and Relic.

Also, Bahra, when are you going to dabble with the red splash again? I need somebody to netdeck.

I'm just not sure if you meant to exclude StP. Not on board with that idea...

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Sorry. Definitely did not mean to exclude such a fine card.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd

Also, Bahra, when are you going to dabble with the red splash again? I need somebody to netdeck.

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Not sure, I'm intrigued by the fact that you are enthusiastic about the red deck still, I had shelved it and believed that it was an outdated deck. I could be wrong, but if elves show up in stronger numbers on MTGO I will explore it again, but right now I am winning a pretty ridiculous amount of my games with my mono white build, and I am very happy with it.

So it will take a meta shift or maybe I'll just explore it for fun when I've moved (getting the key for the new apartment any day now, and then I will be able to stream even more).

I also wanted to say that I believe your thoughts about the second prelate (that it replaces Mother of Runes) makes a lot of sense.

I miss Imperial Taxes too but the truth is that mono-white is just better now. Prelate is usually marginally to a lot better than Magus as a prison card, and playing such a comparatively fragile mana-base is just not worth it. The deck was fun as fuck, it was a pleasure working on it with Iatee and Bahra back in the day but mono-white is just better sadly. My interest in DnT has declined rapidly since Recruiter/Prelate invalidated Imperial which is a shame but that's life.

Even the Elves matchup has been made easier by Prelate. Mom -> Ethersworn -> Prelate on 4 is almost certainly going to end in a win for you. It's basically the same shit we tried to do with Demise and Moon but without the awkward manabase.

R.I.P Imperial

That explanation fits for myself as well. I play 3 mom/2 Prelate main.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stevestamopz

I miss Imperial Taxes too but the truth is that mono-white is just better now. Prelate is usually marginally to a lot better than Magus as a prison card, and playing such a comparatively fragile mana-base is just not worth it. The deck was fun as fuck, it was a pleasure working on it with Iatee and Bahra back in the day but mono-white is just better sadly. My interest in DnT has declined rapidly since Recruiter/Prelate invalidated Imperial which is a shame but that's life.

Even the Elves matchup has been made easier by Prelate. Mom -> Ethersworn -> Prelate on 4 is almost certainly going to end in a win for you. It's basically the same shit we tried to do with Demise and Moon but without the awkward manabase.

R.I.P Imperial

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Well that is just too sad, I am reviving Imperial Taxes on my stream right now. I just lost another chance at 5-0 because of Elves, so now it's time! :laugh:

gh0st_b1rd, I agree that WR is still worth considering. It may have it lost its biggest competitive advantage (the Recruiters) b ut it still has stronger mana denial for 3/4c Midrangey decks with Magus and a better haymaker in Pia/Kiran. Palace Jailer is probably the most comparable thing Mono-W has at the moment.

On your SB - I think 2 Containment Priest isn't necessary with 3 Recruiters. Cunning Sparkmage helps shore up the Elves matchup from another direction and also is super bomby vs Infect/Dnt. I definitely wouldn't go without one.

Manic Vandal feels like a better fit in the deck than Relic Warder as a human and the shatter effect is more reliable. Yesterday I got my Relic Warder Eldrazi Displacered by my opponent, which is a pretty interesting interaction that didn't end up working well for me (exiled artifact from Relic Warder not yet in play to be targeted by the new copy of the Relic Warder.) And a non-human that you want to cast turn 2 for WW is tough, even for mono-W's mana.

Still, there are 2 reasons I stopped playing Manic Vandal:

a. It's a 3 drop, which means it isn't as fast as killing Vials/Chalices/Jittes before they get value from it.
b. More importantly, it's not a may ability. We can't just Vial it in as a bear if our opponent hasn't played anything relevant, because we have to Vandal our own Vial. In some cases the opponent can respond with things like Flicker their only artifact, kill their own Strix, bounce their Batterskull, and we get pretty wrecked. Relic Warder also eats enchantments, which is most relevant vs Dread of Night, but comes up once in a while elsewhere (Enchantress, Back to Basics, Moat.)

What do you guys think the representation of BR reanimator will be at the GP level? I'm undecided on whether or not I want to squeeze 2 Faerie Macabres in my sideboard for Louisville or not... Also, is the card good enough to warrant bringing in for other matchups (mainly Lands, but potentially Storm)?

The rest of my SB:
2x Gideon AOZ
2x Council's Judgment
2x Path to Exile
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cataclysm
2x RIP
1x Containment Priest
2x Ethersworn Canonist
[2x Macabre / 1x SOWAP 1x Pithing Needle]

You absolutely bring it in for Lands and any other Punishing Fire deck + ANT but not TES.

I played yesterday a 5 round legacy tournament.
R1: D&T (1-2). I won game one, but he plays Manriki Gusari in the board and I don't, gg.
R2: UWx Stoneblade (2-1). G1 I outgrind a TNN equipped with a Jitte and it feels like it should count for 2 games. G2 I lose to T2 TNN + great follow ups and removal. G3 I Karakas + Mom, he plays a Sea + DRS. I wasteland the Sea + Stp the shaman. He plays a wasteland and breaks my karakas hoping to put us both in topdeck mode. I have 2 plains and stabilize from there, opp concedes a couple turns later.
R3: Big Red (2-0). G1 he keeps a clunky hand and goes T1 Trinisphere but no follow up for a couple turns, I play a Vial on T3, then Thalia, then Prelate, then GG. G2 He mulls to oblivion.
R4: UB Reanimator: G1 I thalia + Karakas. G2 he grave titans me. G3 I lose my board to Elesh Norn, so I rebuild my hand while I'm being beten to death and in the last beat I flickerwisp Norn, then with the trigger on the stack I stick a Containment Priest and win from there.
R5: ID with Aluren.
T8: Aluren (2-0). G1 I play a vial and follow up with swords on DRS + wasteland, then proceed to port and then double port while beating. G2: Similar to game 1 (kill shaman, double port + vial), although with hate cards in hand in case the lock is broken, butt opp can't cast spells most of the game and concedes.
T4: UB Reanimator (2-1). Same opp from R4. I lose G1 to Grave Titan, then Win G2 off the top hitting a flickerwisp clearing Pithing Needle (naming Karakas), then clear Iona and land a RiP. G3 I don't quite remember but it was quite an awesome win too, as always, involving flickerwisp.
T2: Mentor Miracles (1-2). I win G1 absurdely over committing to the board, I land a Prelate on 1 on T3 and rode it to victory alongside 2 revokers and a SFM. G2 I get wrecked by a lot of removal and counterbalance top lock into double Sulfur Elemental. G3 it was grindy and I'm forced to cataclysm, then go top deck mode. We both top deck lands but I don't find any relevant pressure.

The list:

4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
4x Mother of Runes

4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3x Stoneforge Mystic
3x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Serra Avenger
1x Umezawa's Jitte

3x Flickerwisp
2x Sanctum Prelate
2x Recruiter of the Guard
2x Thalia, Heretic Cathar
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Sword of Fire and Ice

1x Batterskull

4x Wasteland
4x Rishadan Port
3x Cavern of Souls
3x Karakas
2x Horizon Canopy
7x Plains

Sideboard:
2x Path to Exile
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Containment Priest
2x Rest in Peace
2x Council's Judgment
1x Mirran Crusader
1x Magus of the Moon
1x Faerie Macabre
1x Armageddon
1x Cataclysm

I'm thinking on Adding a 4th Cavern in place of a Canopy and removing an Avenger for a Wingmare or another Wisp. On the board I need to get a 2nd Cataclysm to get rid of Armageddon, and I'd also like to add an Orzhov Pontiff and/or Kambal, Consul of Allocation. I don't think the manabase needs to be warped to play random 1ofs if we're playing 4 Cavern + 4 Vial and the cards we want to 'splash' are only 1 symbol off color.

Remember that Magus of the Moon is not instantly a win against Lands (although it 90% is). They can still cast Gamble and Punishing fire (which is all they need to get rid of the magus). You need an active mum + the magus to completely close the game. I mean, not saying the card is bad (I play it too), just keep in mind that if your opponent suspects it, they can easily play around it (especially if you have to recruit for it).

Played a 5 round tournament today with 19 people. Didn't actually play that much Magic at the end of the day, but it was a far more competitive field than I'm used to.

Round 1 - Bye!

Round 2 - BR Reanimator (Unmask version)
G1: Early Griselbrand. Reanimate targeting Tidespout when I only have Mom and TGT, I scoop.
G2: Mull to 6 with 2x Faerie Macabre, Rest in Peace, 2 lands and a 6th card I can't remember (it was irrelevant). Discard Faerie to exile is attempt at a T1 Iona. My T2 I drop Rest in Peace, and he scoops.
G3: T0 Chancellor reveal. T1 reanimate Chancellor. Opponent Thoughtseizes me and takes my Plow; I topdeck a Cavern and flash in Containment Priest in response to an attempt to Reanimate Iona. I Path his Chancellor, beat down with Priest while my opponent struggles to find a second land (he "failed to find" off the Path, I'm not sure why though). Opponent concedes after I Recruiter for Faerie Macabre.

Round 3 - BUG Lands Control (a.k.a. "Dr. Evil")
G1: Maindeck Council's Judgment saves me, taking care of his Leovold. Thalia and Crusader swing in for lethal. Turns out he kept a 1-lander with his Mox Diamond so he had a slower than usual start, in which case the "taxes" part of this deck strangled him.
G2: T1 Vial allows me to play more of a control matchup with my lands. He gets a Leovold and Liliana that I can't answer (only one white source). I eventually get a board with Batterskull, SFM, Mom, and Mirran Crusader. Opponent casts Toxic Deluge for 4 wiping my board as well as his Leovold. End of his main phase I Vial in Flickerwisp targetting Batterskull, next turn swing for 7. Cast Recruiter, get Mirran Crusader. End game.

Round 4 - UR Delver
Intentional Draw for lunch!

Round 5 - BR Reanimator?
Intentional Draw!

Quarterfinals - Infect
G1: He counters my T1 Aether Vial, he has a T1 Inkmoth Nexus and pass. I don't remember what I did my turn 2 but it was irrelevant because he had a Forest and triple(!!!) Invigorate T2.
G2: He once again counters my T1 Vial, which my hand was really hoping to land. I get a Cavern (on Human) and Rishadan Port and get an Ethersworn Canonist, followed by Revoker on Hierarch. he gets a Blighted Agent and Inkmoth Nexus and I can't answer either. Feels bad.



Overall I was very happy with my deck choice and based on what I saw around me was happy with my sideboard. I like having 3 Caverns and the amount of times it helps me against a blue deck is far outweighs the few times it screws me over (like G2 against Infect). Today was not the first time I had run 3, although it was the first time I dropped to 2 Karakas as I've been screwed over by drawing multiples far more than I've been able to do Thalia tricks.

Maindeck Council's Judgment (with the second in the side) was because Leovold has been rampant in my local meta and I saw plenty of him around me today.

Sideboard Faerie Macabre has been as a concession to BR Reanimator type decks: instant speed, uncounterable, gets around Chancellor's Force Spike, and is fetchable with Recruiter later in the game when needed again. It's helpful against other graveyard reliant decks as well for it's instant speed "gotcha!" much like Surgical Extraction.

//Maindeck (60)
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mirran Crusader
2 Recruiter of the Guard
2 Sanctum Prelate
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Council's Judgment
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull
3 Cavern of Souls
2 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

//Sideboard (15)
2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Palace Jailer
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Gideon, Ally of Zendikar
3 Path to Exile
1 Council's Judgment
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Rest in Peace

@Aten

I'm not so sure how consistent the BR deck really is. I picked it for for a local legacy league, and it is not performing well. I'm mulliganing frequently, and the bad hands do borderline nothing. It has some nutty god hands that go off on turn one with Chancellor backup, but then there are a handful of hands where you just need to find the right piece of a Faithless Looting or (basically) lose. I think it's just a worse Tin Fins. While slightly less reliant on Entomb than Tin Fins, it doesn't "win" as easily most of the time. You might produce something like a Sire of Insanity, but when your opponent manages to get something as silly as a Goyf or Baleful Strix in play, you stall out. The deck just does not response well to interaction. I think novice players might pick it up to mise wins ala Belcher, but I can't see too many veteran players really wanting to run this through 15 rounds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iatee

On your SB - I think 2 Containment Priest isn't necessary with 3 Recruiters. Cunning Sparkmage helps shore up the Elves matchup from another direction and also is super bomby vs Infect/Dnt. I definitely wouldn't go without one.

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I had a Cunning Sparkmage at one point but I had cut it for a Path to Exile because it had seemed like a compromise for fast decks like Elves. I hadn't thought about cutting a Containment Priest because the Sneak and Show and Reanimator match-ups worry me. Realistically if I have a Sparkmage in the place of the 2nd Containment Priest Natural Order would be less of a worry if everything is killed on sight.

Quote:

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Manic Vandal feels like a better fit in the deck than Relic Warder as a human and the shatter effect is more reliable. Yesterday I got my Relic Warder Eldrazi Displacered by my opponent, which is a pretty interesting interaction that didn't end up working well for me (exiled artifact from Relic Warder not yet in play to be targeted by the new copy of the Relic Warder.) And a non-human that you want to cast turn 2 for WW is tough, even for mono-W's mana.

Still, there are 2 reasons I stopped playing Manic Vandal:

a. It's a 3 drop, which means it isn't as fast as killing Vials/Chalices/Jittes before they get value from it.
b. More importantly, it's not a may ability. We can't just Vial it in as a bear if our opponent hasn't played anything relevant, because we have to Vandal our own Vial. In some cases the opponent can respond with things like Flicker their only artifact, kill their own Strix, bounce their Batterskull, and we get pretty wrecked. Relic Warder also eats enchantments, which is most relevant vs Dread of Night, but comes up once in a while elsewhere (Enchantress, Back to Basics, Moat.)

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Manic Vandal is played in a very, very reactive fashion but is at its best when your opponent presents two targets. Vs the mirror its a mix of Vials, Revokers, a Needle and Equipment. Vs Shardless its one of their creatures and a sideboard card. Against Eldrazi, I am usually never in a hurry to deal with the Chalice they have played early but always want an answer for their Jittes if I can.

Another card I have considered is Devout Witness and that human powered Disenchant on legs from Innistrad, I don't usually mind that these cards are slow as long as I don't lose to Jitte outright.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Medea_

@Aten

I'm not so sure how consistent the BR deck really is. I picked it for for a local legacy league, and it is not performing well. I'm mulliganing frequently, and the bad hands do borderline nothing. It has some nutty god hands that go off on turn one with Chancellor backup, but then there are a handful of hands where you just need to find the right piece of a Faithless Looting or (basically) lose. I think it's just a worse Tin Fins. While slightly less reliant on Entomb than Tin Fins, it doesn't "win" as easily most of the time. You might produce something like a Sire of Insanity, but when your opponent manages to get something as silly as a Goyf or Baleful Strix in play, you stall out. The deck just does not response well to interaction. I think novice players might pick it up to mise wins ala Belcher, but I can't see too many veteran players really wanting to run this through 15 rounds.

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Really? I've played against it a lot between weekly Legacy events and competitive weekend tournaments in Toronto, and the deck looks really scary. I've yet to see it really lose to itself even; just the other day I watched it rebuild after taking an Emrakul hit from Sneak and quickly assemble the means to reanimate another fatty for lethal. My "classic" D&T build has been doing pretty decently against it (with just the usual suspects like RIP/Containment priest) but I've also had really good luck finding timely Karakases or STP/paths to deal with their fatty; maybe that + the inconsistency/lack of meta presence at the GP level will be enough to overcome the matchup without Faerie?

I played both SOWAP and Pithing Needle #2 at Columbus and both cards felt great the whole tournament; my intent with those two cards is to bring them into a lot of very common GP matchups (notably Burn) to help bring borderline/slightly poor matchups into the even/favourable position.

I played BR Reanimator a bit and it seems really inconsistent. You do get a number of T1/T2 hands where the opponent just scoops, but you have a lot of games where you do a bad job digging or your T1 attempt gets countered or otherwise interrupted and you do nothing the rest of the game. It has very little interaction and it's sideboard plans are commonly Blood Moon (doesn't hit D&T as hard as others) or Sneak Attack (easy for us to shut down), and less commonly green splash for Abrupt Decay and/or Reverent Silence or white splash for Wear//Tear.

Considering how cheap it is to buy and the reputation it has for being fast/consistent (which may just be because so many people are unprepared for graveyard decks overall), I would definitely expect a lot of it at the GP level, especially early rounds. There's no way I'd run a sideboard without some number of Faerie Macabre and/or Surgical Extraction, although keep in mind Surgical gets hit by the Chancellor reveal while Faerie doesn't.

Following up on what RobNC said, it also loses quite a bit of the initial starting power in post-board games. Sort of like with ANT, every piece of interaction you board in makes it less likely that you'll combo off on turn one. The Unmask version, for example, might board in things like Collective Brutality to deal with creatures. Unless you blow acceleration on it, that's a turn 2 spell that would lead to a turn 3 reanimation as the follow up; that's a very beatable speed. Similarly, every Abrupt Decay, Sneak Attack, Massacre, Pithing Needle, etc. that goes into the deck clunks up plan A. The deck also goes off with backup a little bit less post-board, as Chancellors are likely to get trimmed for other problematic creatures more fitting for the matchup (Ashen Rider, Blazing Archon, Elesh Norn).

I just wanted to add my .02 concerning the red splash.

I really really have been missing Magus and P&K lately. I was honestly never that impressed by any of the other red sideboard options (sudden demise or the sparkmage/sharpshooter options). But those 2 cards in particular just always felt like they helped me the most in the games where I feel the deck struggles the most: grindier midrange-control decks.

Betwen thalia and prelate and sideboard hate pieces I feel as confident as ever vs. unfair combo. Faerie macabre has been a huge help too with the ability to recruit it being a godsend.

Delver games (to me) still feel like they come down to sticking a good piece of equipment (really any of the 3) and just riding that to victory.. Running 6+ Stoneforges via recruiter still feels like this gives us a huge edge. Counterspells have to be at their all time low against us (because of the uptick in Caverns and uptick in Humans) and tyring to waste out D&T is just a losing proposition. Thalia (as always) does the lord's work here; but Prelate on 1 is also just a BIG problem for these decks.

The grindier midrange decks are where I get more concerned: Lands and Shardless in particular. Lands can just grind us out or do some nigh uninteractable combo shinenagins; Shardless is... well shardless. These are the match-ups where I loved Magus and vs. Shardless.. P&K (who incidentally is also fanastic against Miracles).

Additionally, on the play at least, Magus has to be fantastic vs. one of our worst match-ups Eldrazi right?


I don't know but I think in the next few weeks before Louisville I want to go back to testing w/ Red.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gh0st_b1rd

I had a Cunning Sparkmage at one point but I had cut it for a Path to Exile because it had seemed like a compromise for fast decks like Elves. I hadn't thought about cutting a Containment Priest because the Sneak and Show and Reanimator match-ups worry me. Realistically if I have a Sparkmage in the place of the 2nd Containment Priest Natural Order would be less of a worry if everything is killed on sight.

Manic Vandal is played in a very, very reactive fashion but is at its best when your opponent presents two targets. Vs the mirror its a mix of Vials, Revokers, a Needle and Equipment. Vs Shardless its one of their creatures and a sideboard card. Against Eldrazi, I am usually never in a hurry to deal with the Chalice they have played early but always want an answer for their Jittes if I can.

Another card I have considered is Devout Witness and that human powered Disenchant on legs from Innistrad, I don't usually mind that these cards are slow as long as I don't lose to Jitte outright.

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I tried Devout Witness for a while too. If you have time to get it online in the mirror, you obviously just win. But it can be killed or Revokered for no value so you're not guaranteed to get value out of it when your opponent is bringing in more Needle effects and removal anyway.

I think the big thing about these Shatter effects is that most of the time you are playing them in matchups that can be really defined by early tempo / Wasteland - DnT, Merfolk, Eldrazi / similar Chalice decks, fast Painter hands. You need to be able to play whatever creatures are in your hand to keep up, and the constraints of needing red mana + 3 mana / Vial on 3 + *and* needing a target are huge drawbacks. Sometimes you just need a chump blocker for Eldrazi, or a dude to wield a Jitte, or to take out their Chalice on t2 so your STPs are live before you just get overrun.

Manic Vandal is better than Relic Warder in the long and grindy games where you can afford to pace yourself - vs Stoneblade, Maverick and in DnT or Painter games that go long. Stoneblade and Maverick decks play a lot of removal and Vandal is obviously much better than Relic Warder vs all removal heavy decks. But those decks are yesteryear's t1 and make up much smaller % of the field than decks where Relic Warder is better - more contemporary t1 decks like DnT/Eldrazi/SnS/Omni/Aluren/Lands/Reanimator builds (gets both Animate Dead and Dread). Vandal's marginally better vs Shardless, but it's not a haymaker, I don't think those games are really defined by Shatter effects the same way that Jitte mirrors are and Shardless can play Dread of Night out of the board so there will be some cases where you want the option to eat Enchantments.

I 4-0'd my weekly last night with this. Beat UR TNN/Dack Fayden/TITI, Dredge, Miracles, Grixis Delver.

I dunno if I would take it to a large tournament in this form but it's not unplayable. Pontiff helped me beat a TNN and a Cavern'd Kambal let me come back from a fast Grixis Delver Pyro board. Pia/Kiran came out a few times, Magus wasn't relevant.

Humans:
4 Thalia
4 Mom
2 Kambal
2 Dark Confidant
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Pia/Kiran
1 Sanctum Prelate
3 Recruiter of the Guard

Friends of Humans:
4 SfM
2 Revoker
2 Flickerwisp

Equipment:
4 Vial
4 Stp
3 Equip

Land:
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Wasteland
3 Port
3 Karakas
2 Plains
5 Fetch
1 Plateau
1 Scrubland


SB:
2 Path
2 Council's Judgment
1 Kambal
1 Rip
2 Faerie Macabre
1 Ethersworn
1 Containment Priest
1 Pithing Needle
1 Relic Warder
1 Mirran Crusader
1 Palace Jailer
1 Orzhov Pontiff

Wow, Magus would leave you with 2 white sources in the deck. That seems pretty ambitious. Congrats on the finish though!

http://www.myawesomequotes.com/wp-co...-arrive-in.jpg

Sure, just don't be this guy:

http://files.curby.net/overambitious.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/le2cV9e.jpg?2http://i.imgur.com/uVFPuJC.jpg?2

Thought this thread might appreciate my shiny deck. Only non-foils are ports and caverns. Im about 99% certain ports will be in one of the upcoming expedition/masterpiece sets and that cavern of souls will be in MM2017. I'm holding out for the full art ports :tongue:

Gotta upgrade your Paths:

http://d2ydh70d4b5xgv.cloudfront.net...8f5d252951.jpg

I had no idea Guay did a promo PtE!!!!

I must have!!

And only 50% more than a "regular" conflux/commander version. Hmm.

Okay so I went through this exercise and wanted to get the group's thoughts.

- I scored each "main deck" card in a typical D&T list against all the major archetypes (comprising 82%) according to mtgtop8 meta-game.
- The remaining 18% was divided (per the meta breakdown) into generic AGGRO, CONTROL, and COMBO categories.
- The following scale was used:

5 - "Best" - A card which will single-handedly take over and win a game; or make it nigh-impossible for an opponent to win a game.
4 - "Great" - A card which interacts in a powerful and meaningful way with the opponent; a "must answer"; a powerful card that can quickly take-over a game.
3 - "Good" - A card which has an impact on the game; it provides an effect which can be useful, but situational. May have powerful effect but only over a limited scope of the opponent's deck.
2 - "OK" - A card which isn't doing too much in a match-up except for providing a body that can eventually attack enough time to win the games.
1 - "Bad" - A card which has very little impact on the game; the body is weak given that the effect does nothing; or it's effect only targets perhaps 1 of an opponent's spells.
0 - "Terrible" - Does nothing in a particular match-up; essentially a mulligan.


I then created a weighted average of each card given the current Top8 Meta (i.e. SUMPRODUCT).

I'm sure we will argue about the ratings I gave to each card (and that's the whole point); but here's the list sorted by highest weighted average to lowest.

		11%	10%	9%	10%	8%	6%	6%	5%	5%	4%	4%	4%	3%	3%	3%	3%	2%	2%	2%
Card	Weight Average	Miracles	Eldrazi Aggro	Shardless	AGGRO	Reanimator	Grixis Delver	COMBO	D&T	Elves	Stoneblade	4c Delver	Storm	S&T	UR Delver	Aggro Loam	Lands	Infect	Aluren	CONTROL
Aether Vial	3.4	5	3	5	3	3	4	2	4	2	4	4	2	2	4	2	2	3	3	3
Swords to Plowshares	3.3	2	4	3	5	3	4	1	5	5	3	4	0	2	4	4	3	5	2	2
Sanctum Prelate	3.1	4	1	3	2	4	4	5	1	1	3	4	5	5	4	3	4	1	5	4
Recruiter of the Guard	3.0	4	3	4	3	2	3	2	4	3	3	3	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	3
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben	3.0	4	1	4	2	4	4	5	1	0	3	4	5	4	4	2	3	2	2	3
Flickerwisp	3.0	3	4	3	3	1	4	1	4	3	4	4	1	2	4	3	4	3	3	3
Umezawa's Jitte	2.9	2	4	3	5	0	4	0	5	5	3	4	0	0	4	2	2	5	4	2
Batterskull	2.6	3	3	3	5	0	4	0	3	2	3	4	0	0	4	2	2	1	2	4
Mirran Crusader	2.5	2	2	4	4	2	2	2	3	3	2	3	2	2	2	2	2	2	2	2
Stoneforge Mystic	2.5	3	3	3	4	0	4	0	4	2	3	4	0	0	4	3	1	3	1	3
Serra Avenger	2.4	2	3	2	3	1	3	1	3	3	3	3	1	1	3	3	3	3	2	3
Mother of Runes	2.3	2	1	4	4	0	4	0	4	1	3	4	0	0	4	4	3	1	1	3
Phyrexian Revoker	2.1	4	1	3	1	1	2	1	4	4	2	2	3	3	0	2	1	1	1	3
Sword of Fire and Ice	2.1	3	2	2	2	0	4	0	3	2	4	4	0	0	4	2	2	2	3	3

		4%	4%	3%	3%	3%	3%	2%	2%	2%
Card	Weight Average	4c Delver	Storm	S&T	UR Delver	Aggro Loam	Lands	Infect	Aluren	CONTROL
Aether Vial	3.4	4	2	2	4	2	2	3	3	3
Swords to Plowshares	3.3	4	0	2	4	4	3	5	2	2
Sanctum Prelate	3.1	4	5	5	4	3	4	1	5	4
Recruiter of the Guard	3.0	3	2	2	3	3	3	3	3	3
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben	3.0	4	5	4	4	2	3	2	2	3
Flickerwisp	3.0	4	1	2	4	3	4	3	3	3
Umezawa's Jitte	2.9	4	0	0	4	2	2	5	4	2
Batterskull	2.6	4	0	0	4	2	2	1	2	4
Mirran Crusader	2.5	3	2	2	2	2	2	2	2	2
Stoneforge Mystic	2.5	4	0	0	4	3	1	3	1	3
Serra Avenger	2.4	3	1	1	3	3	3	3	2	3
Mother of Runes	2.3	4	0	0	4	4	3	1	1	3
Phyrexian Revoker	2.1	2	3	3	0	2	1	1	1	3
Sword of Fire and Ice	2.1	4	0	0	4	2	2	2	3	3

Sweet, thanks for doing that! Reminds me a bit of the burn deck breakdown I did about a decade ago. :eyebrow:

I'm happy to see that everything ends up with a 2 or better. Based on this analysis, any card that scores less than 2 doesn't belong in the maindeck (but might still be useful in the side). Two feature requests, if you have the time:

1) Can you calculate the standard deviation, or some other measure of the "swinginess" of the card? Cards that are either 4s or 0s across the board might belong in the side.

2) Given that you're going as narrow as Mirran Crusader, who is usually 0 or 1 copies in most maindecks, would you mind including other toolbox pieces as time permits? Specifically, Palace Jailer, Banisher Priest, Mangara of Corondor, Spirit of the Labyrinth, Thalia, Heretic Cathar. These are all cards that are considered general enough to see some maindeck play.

Thanks again.

EDIT: 3) Mind looking at land too? Much like our creatures, they serve two roles. Wasteland and Port are pretty staple, but the numbers of Cavern, Karakas, Mishra's Factory, etc. vary quite a bit.

Hey sorry not to jump in and interrupt conversation but I've taken quite the hiatus from competitive legacy thanks to school and life stuff, about 3 months to be exact. I still followed the format somewhat and saw the rise of reanimator. I see everyone packing a faerie macabre now and wanted to know what matchups you found it good in other than reanimator. Lands I'm sure it's good against, but anything else. (FWIW don't say stuff like Dredge or UB reanimator which are obvious) What matchups do we bring it in against and how many does everyone think is the right number?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Marungo

Hey sorry not to jump in and interrupt conversation but I've taken quite the hiatus from competitive legacy thanks to school and life stuff, about 3 months to be exact. I still followed the format somewhat and saw the rise of reanimator. I see everyone packing a faerie macabre now and wanted to know what matchups you found it good in other than reanimator. Lands I'm sure it's good against, but anything else. (FWIW don't say stuff like Dredge or UB reanimator which are obvious) What matchups do we bring it in against and how many does everyone think is the right number?

---

Reanimator, any Loam decks, Dredge, Snapcaster decks. Storm if you're desperate for sideboard cards.

I personally am running a 2/1 split of Faerie and Rest in Peace. Don't forget Faerie is tutorable with Recruiter.

Included the weighted var and stdev.
No surprises; Mom and the equipment is the swingiest (at least according to my rankings)

Recruiter, Wisp, Vial and solid beaters (Crusader and Avenger) are the least swingy.

"Count"	Card	Wt_Mean	Variance*	STDEV*	Mean-1std	Mean+1std
2	Recruiter	3.0	0.5	0.7	2.3	3.8
4	Wisp	3.0	1.2	1.1	1.9	4.1
1	Crusader	2.5	1.2	1.1	1.4	3.6
4	Vial	3.3	1.3	1.1	2.1	4.4
2	Avenger	2.4	1.5	1.2	1.1	3.6
4	STP	3.3	1.8	1.4	1.9	4.6
2	Prelate	3.1	2.0	1.4	1.7	4.5
4	Thalia	3.0	2.1	1.5	1.6	4.5
3	Revoker	2.1	2.9	1.7	0.4	3.8
4	SFM	2.4	3.0	1.7	0.7	4.1
1	Bskull	2.6	3.0	1.7	0.8	4.3
1	SoFI	2.1	3.1	1.7	0.4	3.9
1	Jitte	2.9	3.4	1.8	1.0	4.7
4	Mom	2.3	3.6	1.9	0.4	4.2

Also took a typical deck list using the above card counts to give a weighted "deck value" vs. each opponent deck...

Not sure if I agree with the exact "ranking" since it calculates out with such a bad combo score; mainly because of how many dead cards there are vs. combo (Plows, Moms, most equipment [ergo SFM]). May need to tweak that a bit potentially..

Opp_Deck	Wt. Value
4c Delver	3.7
Grixis Delver	3.7
D&T	3.5
UR Delver	3.5
Shardless	3.4
AGGRO	3.2
Stoneblade	3.1
Miracles	3.1
CONTROL	2.9
Aggro Loam	2.8
Lands	2.6
Infect	2.6
Elves	2.4
Eldrazi	2.4
Aluren	2.2
S&T	1.8
Reanimator	1.7
Storm	1.6
COMBO	1.5

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by RobNC

Don't forget Faerie is tutorable with Recruiter.

---

Hard to forget as it's really the only reason to play the Faerie in the first place.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Secretly.A.Bee

Hard to forget as it's really the only reason to play the Faerie in the first place.

---

Wait, what? Most players were still on RIP before BR Reanimator was a thing, with some splashing the occasional Relic or Surgical. I added Faerie not (primarily) because of Recruiter, but rather because of BR Reanimator: it's a turn 0, Chancellor-proof way to remove two reanimation targets from their yard.

Anyway, yeah it works with both Recruiter and Vial.