[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by jares

I agree that [2x] Ichorids sounds like just the right number for a build that aims to finish the game as early as possible, given that you won't really need more than one because Dread Return really is the "star player" of your game plan. In relation to that, going with [3x] Cabal Therapy also seems enough, though I would still run the full set of Cabal Therapy and Ichorids in my 75-card list.

I find that [3x] Dread Returns are necessary to be able to reliably "chain" into Sphinx of Lost Truths (or something equivalent to it) and your "killer" DR target (FKZ, Flayer of the Hatebound; you may even want to DR Flayer of the Hatebound twice, just to show-off :tongue:). Otherwise, if I just expect to cast one Dread Return a game, then [2x] would seem enough.

Kind Regards,
jares

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I think you guys are seriously underestimating how absolutely necessary 4xCabal Therapy is vs the combo match ups and 3xIchorid is vs disruption, you need to stop pretending that your draw spells are all going to resolve game 1 vs Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce based decks, that your Ichorids are never going to take up farming or that every Maverick player only has 1 Scavenging Ooze MD and start preparing to grind it out or you are going to lose game 1's left, right and center vs opponent's who actually know what they are doing.

I'm seriously at a loss for why every one is cutting Ichorid, Golgari Thug and Cabal Therapy for Dread Return, what match ups is this actually improving and how are we benefitting from relying on a more conditional, disruptable win condition that we have to SB out every game 2+ vs hate? Ichorid/Bridge wins games without board presence and doesn't get destroyed by a single Tormod's Crypt, while this Dread Return shit is just cute and completely unnecessary. I mean did Enchantress take over the metagame while I wasn't looking or what? What makes Flayer necessary all of a sudden?

Anybody can win with this deck in any "jank" configuration if they dodge hate or resolve everything, that's not a license to build a shitty deck around a broken engine. It's your deck's ability to win thru' disruption that matters, and Dread Return does not do that. The current "quad laser" deck is pretty much built to deal with everything the metagame can throw at it with as much redundancy and SB space as possible, you really need a good reason to deviate from it unless you're taking up +Phantasmagorian -Cephalid Coliseum. I'm not totally against show horning a couple Dread Return into the deck for an Ichorid and Golgari Thug in the SB, but really what is the deck gaining from this game 1 that it actually needs? I could probably cut Bridge from Below from the MD for Ashen Ghoul and still win all of my game 1s, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I think you guys are seriously underestimating how absolutely necessary 4xCabal Therapy is vs the combo match ups and 3xIchorid is vs disruption, you need to stop pretending that your draw spells are all going to resolve game 1 vs Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce based decks, that your Ichorids are never going to take up farming or that every Maverick player only has 1 Scavenging Ooze MD and start preparing to grind it out or you are going to lose game 1's left, right and center vs opponent's who actually know what they are doing.

I'm seriously at a loss for why every one is cutting Ichorid, Golgari Thug and Cabal Therapy for Dread Return, what match ups is this actually improving and how are we benefitting from relying on a more conditional, disruptable win condition that we have to SB out every game 2+ vs hate? Ichorid/Bridge wins games without board presence and doesn't get destroyed by a single Tormod's Crypt, while this Dread Return shit is just cute and completely unnecessary. I mean did Enchantress take over the metagame while I wasn't looking or what? What makes Flayer necessary all of a sudden?

Anybody can win with this deck in any "jank" configuration if they dodge hate or resolve everything, that's not a license to build a shitty deck around a broken engine. It's your deck's ability to win thru' disruption that matters, and Dread Return does not do that. The current "quad laser" deck is pretty much built to deal with everything the metagame can throw at it with as much redundancy and SB space as possible, you really need a good reason to deviate from it unless you're taking up +Phantasmagorian -Cephalid Coliseum. I'm not totally against show horning a couple Dread Return into the deck for an Ichorid and Golgari Thug in the SB, but really what is the deck gaining from this game 1 that it actually needs? I could probably cut Bridge from Below from the MD for Ashen Ghoul and still win all of my game 1s, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

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Let me just start off by saying that my current build has four cabal therapies and three ichorids.

If you want the fastest build possible Klazam's number are the right ones. My dredge deck before faithless looting came around was similar to his, i.e. three dreads, two ichorids, and three cabal therapies.

Depending on the meta, I would again build my deck in this fashion. Having the fastest deck possible gives you quite the edge against decks like Maverick, storm combo, lands, the mirror match, MUD, and enchantress. Pretty much any non blue deck.

Currently I play with three ichorids because decks like Stoneblade and delver are popular. You really want to be able to slow dredge into these guys if your opponent cuts off your spells and resources.
I also play four cabal therapies because it causes virtual winning with zombie tokens and a key card being stripped.

Anyway I would stop freaking out about people cutting "key cards". Just because you don't feel like a deck is optimal does not mean the deck is bad. Klazam got top eight a Grand Prix with this "sub-optimal" build.

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Originally Posted by Godmode

They brought to the booth a girl dressed as 'Eternal Witness' (full costume) and Matthias Hunt started a Q&A with her (in character/responding as 'the Eternal Witness') and it got awkward with some nerdy/silly questions. Matthias didn't know what to ask, she didn't know what to answer... at some point they were staring at eachother cringing. They just went way too nerdy with that, IMO.

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Mathias actually asked her: "How does it feel being targeted by a Crystal Shard?"...

I'm not convinced Dread Return into Flayer significantly increases the fundamental turn of the deck in the same way I wasn't convinced Flame Kin Zealot did either, usually you seal the game with Cabal Therapy along your way to Dread Return and don't realize its the "Mind Twist" that actually wins you the game.

I really don't think going deep in a Grand Prix is a sign of whether or not the deck "can or can't" be built in such a way, given how badly these decks are built and played from an objective standpoint I think it just shows you how stupidly overpowered Dredge is and how easily it can carry bad deck builders and players to the finals. I may be overly harsh here, but it just feels like these guys are gretting a free ride and never have to deal with their decks getting disrupted by something as simple as a STP to show the holes in their build.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I'm not convinced Dread Return into Flayer significantly increases the fundamental turn of the deck in the same way I wasn't convinced Flame Kin Zealot did either, usually you seal the game with Cabal Therapy along your way to Dread Return and don't realize its the "Mind Twist" that actually wins you the game.

I really don't think going deep in a Grand Prix is a sign of whether or not the deck "can or can't" be built in such a way, given how badly these decks are built and played from an objective standpoint I think it just shows you how stupidly overpowered Dredge is and how easily it can carry bad deck builders and players to the finals. I may be overly harsh here, but it just feels like these guys are gretting a free ride and never have to deal with their decks getting disrupted by something as simple as a STP to show the holes in their build.

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Exactly!


If I went to a GP tomorrow and top8'ed with a Dredge list without Narcomoeba but three Vizzerdrix as a DR package, I bet people would start playing that list and call it awesome.

While this is exaggerated, the point is that a good finish with Flayer does by no means prove that Flayer is good or even has to be played. Prosak won the Open because he obviously did not face a single real hate piece in like 12 rounds of Legacy. That's extreme luck, but by no means a sign that his list was good. In the latest GP he lost his last round and missed day 2, because he mulled several times in game 1 and had no outs for Leyline in game 2. That's what people should keep in mind about his list, not an auto win at SCG.

You can play 3 DR and add Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, I'm sure you'll do some really fancy stuff with it (maybe kill an Ooze) and people will adopt it. You can play Jin Gitaxias along Laboratory Maniac and tell people how you won with that combo on turn two twice. People will believe it too. Flayer is no different. Actually, not even FKZ is any different, but the fact that he used to be a central part of Dredge back in the day leaves people biased.


I'm not sure how many times I (and other people as well) have said that already; we don't have enough room to play win more cards. People will top8 again and again with those cards, but that doesn't prove anything. There is no skill involved in claiming that those DR targets are the nuts after you stomped through 12 rounds without seeing any grave hate. And it's also easy to blame bad luck or too much hate for your losses if such a list fails. That's not how we should be thinking.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I think you guys are seriously underestimating how absolutely necessary 4xCabal Therapy is vs the combo match ups and 3xIchorid is vs disruption, you need to stop pretending that your draw spells are all going to resolve game 1 vs Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce based decks, that your Ichorids are never going to take up farming or that every Maverick player only has 1 Scavenging Ooze MD and start preparing to grind it out or you are going to lose game 1's left, right and center vs opponent's who actually know what they are doing.

I'm seriously at a loss for why every one is cutting Ichorid, Golgari Thug and Cabal Therapy for Dread Return, what match ups is this actually improving and how are we benefitting from relying on a more conditional, disruptable win condition that we have to SB out every game 2+ vs hate? Ichorid/Bridge wins games without board presence and doesn't get destroyed by a single Tormod's Crypt, while this Dread Return shit is just cute and completely unnecessary. I mean did Enchantress take over the metagame while I wasn't looking or what? What makes Flayer necessary all of a sudden?

Anybody can win with this deck in any "jank" configuration if they dodge hate or resolve everything, that's not a license to build a shitty deck around a broken engine. It's your deck's ability to win thru' disruption that matters, and Dread Return does not do that. The current "quad laser" deck is pretty much built to deal with everything the metagame can throw at it with as much redundancy and SB space as possible, you really need a good reason to deviate from it unless you're taking up +Phantasmagorian -Cephalid Coliseum. I'm not totally against show horning a couple Dread Return into the deck for an Ichorid and Golgari Thug in the SB, but really what is the deck gaining from this game 1 that it actually needs? I could probably cut Bridge from Below from the MD for Ashen Ghoul and still win all of my game 1s, but that doesn't make it a good idea.

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Let me first point out that I agree with the points that you've stated, as I personally run a build that has the full set of Ichorids and Cabal Therapy. In fact, I personally treat Cabal Therapy somewhat like my main "kill condition", and it is, by no means, underestimated or undervalued. You have to understand, though, that the reality is that not everyone would prefer playing with "the most consistently efficient build" that the wisest of us could think of. You guys might be right, for all we know, but not everyone will prefer playing your build or play style, with the operative word being "prefer".

I'm a deck builder that bases his configurations on the numbers, a basis that is absolute, regardless of whether or not people agree with it. The reality, though, is that not all the factors of competitive gaming are absolute. A deck is only as good as its pilot, and pilots have natural tendencies and preferences, and I believe that these subjective factors are what help us decide on how to build a deck, and more importantly, how to play it.

My point is that, if someone prefers to build their own "janky" configuration and decides to WIN with it, then that's their business. If we were to point out possible improvements to someone's build, then that would most certainly help with their considerations - keep in mind, though, that these are still their considerations, not ours.

Complaining about people "abusing" the power level of Dredge by getting into the Top 8 with so-called "janky" configurations won't get us anywhere - we're likely to benefit more by expounding on how to improve their build and why a certain area should be reconsidered (as usual, sound arguments and solid reasoning).

Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Izor

People will top8 again and again with those cards, but that doesn't prove anything.

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Actually, it does certainly prove at least one thing that none of us can contest:

• These people are able to reach the Top 8 using the configuration that they use.

This, by no means, proves that the builds being used are "optimal", nor does it prove that it is suboptimal. It only proves that they can WIN with their build, with their play style.

It actually pleases me to see that people are so adamant in trying to "optimize" this archetype, but I find that complaining about others "abusing" the strength of an archetype rather than correcting it is a step backward.

Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by Izor

Exactly!


If I went to a GP tomorrow and top8'ed with a Dredge list without Narcomoeba but three Vizzerdrix as a DR package, I bet people would start playing that list and call it awesome.

While this is exaggerated, the point is that a good finish with Flayer does by no means prove that Flayer is good or even has to be played. Prosak won the Open because he obviously did not face a single real hate piece in like 12 rounds of Legacy. That's extreme luck, but by no means a sign that his list was good. In the latest GP he lost his last round and missed day 2, because he mulled several times in game 1 and had no outs for Leyline in game 2. That's what people should keep in mind about his list, not an auto win at SCG.

You can play 3 DR and add Vish Kal, Blood Arbiter, I'm sure you'll do some really fancy stuff with it (maybe kill an Ooze) and people will adopt it. You can play Jin Gitaxias along Laboratory Maniac and tell people how you won with that combo on turn two twice. People will believe it too. Flayer is no different. Actually, not even FKZ is any different, but the fact that he used to be a central part of Dredge back in the day leaves people biased.


I'm not sure how many times I (and other people as well) have said that already; we don't have enough room to play win more cards. People will top8 again and again with those cards, but that doesn't prove anything. There is no skill involved in claiming that those DR targets are the nuts after you stomped through 12 rounds without seeing any grave hate. And it's also easy to blame bad luck or too much hate for your losses if such a list fails. That's not how we should be thinking.

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I feel the same way.
But the fact remains, that we have to at least critically view those other builds, because they manage to do sth like a GP Top 8.
I didn't do that yet and this is why I won't call Kazaam's list bad, he did something that I did not accomplish yet.

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Originally Posted by jares

Let me first point out that I agree with the points that you've stated, as I personally run a build that has the full set of Ichorids and Cabal Therapy. In fact, I personally treat Cabal Therapy somewhat like my main "kill condition", and it is, by no means, underestimated or undervalued. You have to understand, though, that the reality is that not everyone would prefer playing with "the most consistently efficient build" that the wisest of us could think of. You guys might be right, for all we know, but not everyone will prefer playing your build or play style, with the operative word being "prefer".

I'm a deck builder that bases his configurations on the numbers, a basis that is absolute, regardless of whether or not people agree with it. The reality, though, is that not all the factors of competitive gaming are absolute. A deck is only as good as its pilot, and pilots have natural tendencies and preferences, and I believe that these subjective factors are what help us decide on how to build a deck, and more importantly, how to play it.

My point is that, if someone prefers to build their own "janky" configuration and decides to WIN with it, then that's their business. If we were to point out possible improvements to someone's build, then that would most certainly help with their considerations - keep in mind, though, that these are still their considerations, not ours.

Complaining about people "abusing" the power level of Dredge by getting into the Top 8 with so-called "janky" configurations won't get us anywhere - we're likely to benefit more by expounding on how to improve their build and why a certain area should be reconsidered (as usual, sound arguments and solid reasoning).

Regards,
jares

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Did you just claim that playing sub-optimal, cute cards in Dredge is strategically correct? And you did so by saying that inefficiency is good?

I bow to your mastery of doublethink.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

Did you just claim that playing sub-optimal, cute cards in Dredge is strategically correct? And you did so by saying that inefficiency is good?

I bow to your mastery of doublethink.

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Did you just claim to read what was being stated? And you did so by applying sarcasm?

I bow to your mastery of misunderstanding.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I feel the same way.
But the fact remains, that we have to at least critically view those other builds, because they manage to do sth like a GP Top 8.
I didn't do that yet and this is why I won't call Kazaam's list bad, he did something that I did not accomplish yet.

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There we go. I believe that all of us that can see the "flaws" would feel the same way, and I agree that the best way to go about these "flawed" builds is to view them objectively, if not critically.

Cheers,
jares

I'm not complaing that players are "abusing" the overpowered nature of Dredge, I'm complaining that everyone seems to be jumping on the deck building band wagon every time a Dredge deck wins. In a lot of ways, I view Dredge in Legacy the same way people viewed Storm 5 years ago in the same format, everyone was trying to "innovate" when they should've been optimizing and concentrating on how to play thru' hate.

What's happening, IMO, is that players don't realize how many SB cards and what SB cards you need vs Dredge, and either aren't playing enough hate or the right hate to deal with the problem (the presence of Reanimator may/may not have something to do with this) Dredge players are just getting away with whatever they want instead of what they need, especially game 1. It's almost akin to Black Summer where even the most inept players could Dark Ritual -> Necropotence 4TW regardless of the other 52 cards in their deck.

You start seeing 4xScavenging Ooze MD and Path to Exile SB in every aggro deck and shit is going to start changing real fast, it's just a matter of time.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Good stuff.

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The more you post, the more I agree with what you're saying.

To the people running Flayer, answer me one question. How can you justify a card that isn't necessary a majority of the time?

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Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk

The more you post, the more I agree with what you're saying.

To the people running Flayer, answer me one question. How can you justify a card that isn't necessary a majority of the time?

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You could also say "To the people running DR-Targets,..."

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Originally Posted by jares

There we go. I believe that all of us that can see the "flaws" would feel the same way, and I agree that the best way to go about these "flawed" builds is to view them objectively, if not critically.

Cheers,
jares

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Not flawed builds. Other.

People playing dredge needs to separate the 'core' from 'packages'. The core is the very simple conjunction of cards that makes the deck at least competitive, the very interaction of cards that makes the strategy of the decks. The packages are ADDITIONAL cards, that either helps you win against a given portion of the metagame, adding either speed or resilience, and it's based on IMPROVING matchups against the ones you struggle.

As an example from GWx Maverick: The 'core' is: 4-manadorks, 4 Mom, 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 4 Green Sun's Zenith. Stoneforge Mystic + Equipment is a package, Planeswalker is a package, Enlightned Tutor and Natural Order are both packages.

For Dredge, the very 'core' is: 4 Bridge from Below, 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Narcomoeba, 3 Ichorid, 12 Dredgers. This NEEDS to be in every list, because it's actually what makes this deck be as degenerate as it is.

Now, let's talk about packages. LED + Faithless Looting is a package. Dread Return + Targets are another package. Phantasmagorian + Nether Shadow is another package. Even anti-hate is a package. These packages aren't NECESSARY, but they accomplish some points, and cover some deck's weaknesses. To win with Dredge in the first place, you have to know what's your metagame is filled like, to either hit good Cabal Therapies, and to know when to grind out the game, or when to explode and just shit on your foe's face.

I'd definetely run DR Package + Flayer/FKZ if my meta was combo-oriented or filled with non-blue decks. As I would also play 4 Ichorids and Phantasmagorian in a heavy control metagame. It's like opting for playing Belcher or Ad Nauseam Tendrils, they both have their merits.

I think that HokusSchmokus german metagame is pretty much different from mine (I'm from Brazil). Therefore, our decks need to be focused on these matchups (although, our lists are pretty much the same). For USA players, the meta should be different. Making generalizations for an 'broad and unknown' metagame just don't make sense, because that doesn't even exist. And sometimes the packages you choose are not well prepared for what you'll face.

So putting all that togheter, I'd just like to quote that given the player's skills (and luck, to a lesser extent), any build of Dredge can put some results, despite running the packages you're not used to play.

EDIT: This deck needs a new primer.

I would be willing to write one.
Also, you are quite right with what you say.

On a meta note: why don't I see Nic Fit booming in the US, the metagame is perfect.

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Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

I would be willing to write one.
Also, you are quite right with what you say.

On a meta note: why don't I see Nic Fit booming in the US, the metagame is perfect.

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I had the same thoughts. Problem is that I think i'd write too much in personal influence. :rolleyes:

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

I had the same thoughts. Problem is that I think i'd write too much in personal influence. :rolleyes:

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I actually thought of writing it a bit like vandalized described it.
Well, we'll first see what the general consensus on this thread is:

Do we need a new primer and if so, who should write it?
I vote for 4eak or Hollywood.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I really don't think going deep in a Grand Prix is a sign of whether or not the deck "can or can't" be built in such a way, given how badly these decks are built and played from an objective standpoint I think it just shows you how stupidly overpowered Dredge is and how easily it can carry bad deck builders and players to the finals. I may be overly harsh here, but it just feels like these guys are gretting a free ride and never have to deal with their decks getting disrupted by something as simple as a STP to show the holes in their build.

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I think top eight at a 900+ person tournament does prove that the build of the deck he has can indeed win!

If the sheer power of dredge was winning tourney's I think it might still be a deck to beat.

Anyway a primer update would be great. I vote for Hollywood.