All B/R update speculation.

I'd be so stoked to play Food Chain Goblins again.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

That'd open you up to removal though. Plus you'd need a Snapcaster for Snap to actually turn on, putting you at a disadvantage.

I haven't heard a good argument against unbanning Goblin Recruiter.

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Makes match go to time ez.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

That'd open you up to removal though. Plus you'd need a Snapcaster for Snap to actually turn on, putting you at a disadvantage.

I haven't heard a good argument against unbanning Goblin Recruiter.

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So you haven't read any of my posts?

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

It's not that it's a turn 3 kill with the combo. It's that even without the combo you are still a top tier aggro deck and the combo is a very solid plan B. Any deck that can't deal with Food Chain is just going to get crushed and any deck that can't deal with a possibly uncounterable turn 2 Recruiter stacking your deck is going to get crushed. If you go for a turn 3 win with most decks and I stop your combo you have to recover, instead here you are still playing a really good aggro deck. If I put up a superior board position early vs. most aggro decks I'm in a commanding lead, here you can just topdeck a Food Chain and have a blow out randomly a lot of times (think Goblin Matron + Recruiter + Ringleader and Food Chain, pretty good odds you are going to be able to pull some whacky shit).

Lot's of decks can deal with Goblins attacking, lots of decks can deal with Food Chain type combos, not a lot of decks can deal with both at the same time when it's super easy to stack your deck. Recruiter absolutely pushes Goblins to another level entirely. Goblins with and without Recruiter are 2 completely different decks. It's like comparing Vine-Madness with Survival to w/o Survival, there is no comparison.

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Originally Posted by Tacosnape

I don't know about you, but in the Knight/Cradle shell that is Maverick, I can't help but think it'd go in here, Thalia or not. Some scenarios quite capable of happening:

Turn one Land, Mother.
Turn two Land, Thalia.
Turn three Land, Knight.
Turn four fetch a Bayou, Knight for Cradle, Mind Twist for 5 (Including the +1 for Thalia.)

Me personally? I think this wins a lot of games.

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I'm sure, your First 3 turns would "win a Lot of games" alone. Why discard their cards if you can waste-Lock your Opponent with thalia and knight so their cards are dead anyways?

A Classic Win-more

So the theoretical nightmare scenario of Show and Tell/Omniscience/Griselbrand decks is happening right now at the SCG Open.

Brace yourselves for incoming shitstorm.

So why is this that much of a surprise? I think everyone knows that Show and Tell and/or Griselbrand should have been banned in June, altough its admittedly hard to justify a banning after that little time...

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Originally Posted by majikal

So the theoretical nightmare scenario of Show and Tell/Omniscience/Griselbrand decks is happening right now at the SCG Open.

Brace yourselves for incoming shitstorm.

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The nightmare of getting a rd3 feature match? I don't even want to imagine the shitstorm if the deck top8's. I really don't think the deck is better than Dream Halls or SneakShow just different and its exploiting that.

I think it's weaker than Sneak&Show in the sense that it solely relies on casting Show and Tell and doesn't have a secondary castable win condition like Sneak Attack. But after the S&T->Omniscience resolves it's stronger and more flexible than Sneak&Show because it has both creature based and storm based kills whereas you can hate out Sneak&Show with cards like Humility and Ensnaring Bridge.

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Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

I think everyone knows that Show and Tell and/or Griselbrand should have been banned in June,

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Is this sarcasm?

Ok seriously I've been trying for the past week to build a decent black aggro deck.. Its fucking impossible.


Seriously WotC.. if you ever read these forums, its about time black got some solid power-creeped creatures. Treacherous Pit-Dweller's is a joke, and I tried to break it already with Torpor Orb; Tarmogoyf is just straight better. Please try harder because if discard comes back as an actual thing, or even Pox, it will seriously diversify the metagame because you will have control decks and combo decks having to deal with discard and creatures that can compete with stuff like Delver, Goyf, Nimble Mongoose, etc. If these decks don't have to technically splash a color for their creatures, I don't see why black should.

Ideally, I'd like to see something that interacts well with Death's Shadow. I've been trying to build something with Lurking Evil and such but Lurking Evil would have to be like an 8/8 flying if it were gonna cost BBB for that kind of draw back.

Besides, Zombies are fucking lame. Start printing, Demons, Shadows, and Horrors. All the cool kids in standard will feel like badasses and thats what you want right? Right??

I know they've printed Demons quite a bit but they've all been bad. We need gnarly one and two drop Demons to roll with Dark Ritual and Thoughtseize/Duress or Hymn.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Ok seriously I've been trying for the past week to build a decent black aggro deck.. Its fucking impossible.


Seriously WotC.. if you ever read these forums, its about time black got some solid power-creeped creatures. Treacherous Pit-Dweller's is a joke, and I tried to break it already with Torpor Orb; Tarmogoyf is just straight better. Please try harder because if discard comes back as an actual thing, or even Pox, it will seriously diversify the metagame because you will have control decks and combo decks having to deal with discard and creatures that can compete with stuff like Delver, Goyf, Nimble Mongoose, etc. If these decks don't have to technically splash a color for their creatures, I don't see why black should.

Ideally, I'd like to see something that interacts well with Death's Shadow. I've been trying to build something with Lurking Evil and such but Lurking Evil would have to be like an 8/8 flying if it were gonna cost BBB for that kind of draw back.

Besides, Zombies are fucking lame. Start printing, Demons, Shadows, and Horrors. All the cool kids in standard will feel like badasses and thats what you want right? Right??

I know they've printed Demons quite a bit but they've all been bad. We need gnarly one and two drop Demons to roll with Dark Ritual and Thoughtseize/Duress or Hymn.

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I can fully get behing this, heh heh. Seriously though, black is being seriously neglected. I also tried to get Pit-Dweller to work but like most other black creatures it sucks. The only good black creature, Bob, barely see's play, one of the best creatures ever printed doesn't even see play. Something is wrong with that. We need cheap instant speed discard, efficient beaters, some card draw of old like black was know for or atleast a decent tutor with a resonable drawback. Unbanning Mind Twist would also help but I'd rather the focus be on strengthening black as a whole first.

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Originally Posted by rxavage

I don't even want to imagine the shitstorm if the deck top8's.

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It did. *opens up umbrella*

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Originally Posted by rxavage

I can fully get behing this, heh heh. Seriously though, black is being seriously neglected. I also tried to get Pit-Dweller to work but like most other black creatures it sucks. The only good black creature, Bob, barely see's play, one of the best creatures ever printed doesn't even see play. Something is wrong with that. We need cheap instant speed discard, efficient beaters, some card draw of old like black was know for or atleast a decent tutor with a resonable drawback. Unbanning Mind Twist would also help but I'd rather the focus be on strengthening black as a whole first.

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I don't like the idea of instant discard at one mana. I personally think that the fact that discard spells are useless as a topdeck makes up for their incredible usefullness in the early/mid game. Especially in Nic Fit, BUG Control, Team America and Esper Stoneblade you can see how much discard spells contribute to the deck, especially against combo.

Furthermore I don't think that B is generally a bad color. They have very strong tools: Bitterblossom, Bob, Liliana, Hymn, Gatekeeper, Tombstalker, with W Tidehollow Sculler and Vindicate and with G Pernicious Deeds. What it lecks is resilence against agressive decks splashing R. And the top deck, RUG is such a deck and therefore it fell out of favor. So I don't even think that the splash color B would need better cards right now.

But what I do think is that monocolored strategys, including mono B, need some more tools. Goblins got theirs with the Cavern, Merfolk got their new lord. And now I think Gate should also get something that compliments their strategy.

You know black discard is at an all-time low when the best discard spell is a BLUE instant-speed 'discard' spell that attacks for 3. And flies. Ain't that a bitch?

I think a good direction for black discard in the future is WotC printing cheaper versions of this card:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...6727&type=card

There are two big reasons why black discard sucks right now: topdecks and Brainstorm. Ignoring Psychotic Episode's mana costs, you can clearly see that its effect not only targets your opponent's hand, but it also targets your opponent's topdeck or a card that your opponent Brainstormed on the top. I think if modern black discard targeted the topdeck in addition to your opponent's hand, Brainstorm wouldn't be as powerful a solution to discard as it is now and black would be a stronger color.

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Originally Posted by Shawon

There are two big reasons why black discard sucks right now: topdecks and Brainstorm. Ignoring Psychotic Episode's mana costs, you can clearly see that its effect not only targets your opponent's hand, but it also targets your opponent's topdeck or a card that your opponent Brainstormed on the top. I think if modern black discard targeted the topdeck in addition to your opponent's hand, Brainstorm wouldn't be as powerful a solution to discard as it is now and black would be a stronger color.

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This is an interesting idea. Still, I feel like Black's protection package is good enough. Considering Dark Ritual, if they got a few undercosted black creatures to compete with cards like Delver, Goyf, KoTR, etc. then the color could come back.

SCG Open Washington's top 16 shows us the oppressing nature of Griselbrand. Once again. My guess is that people believe after reading this thread that the card actually is banned, and just stopped playing it.

Pretty sick seeing Loam toolboxes via Entomb. You can Entomb Loam, or a drawn Entomb after you have Loam gets you whatever land you want for the matchup. Kinda sick. The lands list could also find Worm Harvest or Raven's Crime while the Loam Pox list could find Nether Spirit or Raven's Crime.

Also, yeah, Griselbrand was definitely super hyped, but I don't think its gone. The fact that you have to pay life means its harder to play Reanimate in Reanimator, so Jin-Gitaxis is probably better. Also, it makes the opponent's handsize nothing so they have no way to recover. I'd still think that he's the better choice in Sneak/Show over Progenitus. I'm surprised that card got played at all. Perhaps because it has protection from Karakas? Lol.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Also, it makes the opponent's handsize nothing so they have no way to recover. I'd still think that he's the better choice in Sneak/Show over Progenitus. I'm surprised that card got played at all. Perhaps because it has protection from Karakas? Lol.

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Prog is a necessary evil when facing Drakes, Krakakas, and Jaces.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Pretty sick seeing Loam toolboxes via Entomb. You can Entomb Loam, or a drawn Entomb after you have Loam gets you whatever land you want for the matchup. Kinda sick. The lands list could also find Worm Harvest or Raven's Crime while the Loam Pox list could find Nether Spirit or Raven's Crime.

Also, yeah, Griselbrand was definitely super hyped, but I don't think its gone. The fact that you have to pay life means its harder to play Reanimate in Reanimator, so Jin-Gitaxis is probably better. Also, it makes the opponent's handsize nothing so they have no way to recover. I'd still think that he's the better choice in Sneak/Show over Progenitus. I'm surprised that card got played at all. Perhaps because it has protection from Karakas? Lol.

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I dont' think Grisel is that bad...the meta again has shifted. There isn't a sneak attack show and tell deck in the top 8.

Games adjust...stop asking for bannings.

Can we make a rule that if you argue aggressively for banning a card and the meta ends up self correcting you get a warning, then second time it happens you can't argue for the banning of a card for a year. That would be just awesome.