Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chainer, Dementia Master
Quick question for those more experienced with the deck. What cards would you recommend for fighting the mirror? There is a decent amount of U/W miracles where I play, most of them running the Rest in Peace Combo main, and I'm trying to figure out a sideboard plan though I haven't gotten a chance to test the match yet. What sort of removal should I leave in? Any thoughts?
I run a semi standard U/W/r list without helm combo.
Since most of them are running Rip-Helm, you should win game 1 easily, assuming you are running Legend-Angel or Snapcaster version. In that case, your SB against them can be -2 Snapcaster +2 Wear//Tear (or 1 WT and 1 needle), -2 StP +1 EE +1 needle, and maybe -2 FoW +2 Pyro/REB. In this match-up, Miracle variant vs Miracle variant (not true mirror), a well-timed Clique on a turn with sufficient Mana is the key.
On a separate note, the key trend about CB is the popularity of Golgari Charm. Evidently, BUG delver and Shardless BUG pack in Golgari Charm for TNN. However, this charm also happens to destroy enchantment, which is a splash damage Miracle happens to suffer. While we plan to overload the match-up with more enchantments, also note that BUG can overload permanent removals with AD and GC.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Agreeing on that counteralance argument...maybe keeping in mind that tapping out against BGx deck on turn 2 if they have 2 mana open might be wrong, but that's (as always) dependent on the board situation.
@Chainer: First of all welcome to miracles ;)
Covering your questions (although this might be just my personal opinion) I think you're already favored against the RiP list as they have "dead" cards in the maindeck against you and usually less Clique. I recomend leaving in 2 Terminus against Angel-Lists and boarding out all of the other removal (as you will bring in blasts for Clique/Snapcaster).
Counterbalance/ Top or Jace are the winning cards in the mirror. To be able to stick these your best friends are Clique/Snapcaster/ Pierce/ Blasts and the like. The mirror is highly skill dependent and remember not to tap out at the wrong time as this can cost you the game. On the play you can almost always safely cast Top (very important card as well^^) on turn 1, because your opponent cannot cast Top without risking to be cold to your Balance on turn 2 (this scenario depends on your hand- if you hold 2 Pierces waiting might be better). Against more inexperienced players I often play the mirror very defensively, because they might tap out early so you can use Pierce or Blast and cast your permanents without fearing their softcounters.
For more detailed opinion your decklist (and the one of your Opponent) would be important.
Greetings :)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chainer, Dementia Master
New to playing the deck myself, but counterbalance has won me the majority of the games I've played in testing. Most of my testing has been against Delver(RUG,URW and BUG), Maverick, Shardless BUG and various Esper Trueblade lists. They can't do anything else until they removed it, and most of the decks that play maindeck answers to counterbalance do not have maindeck answers to large amounts of angels.
Quick question for those more experienced with the deck. What cards would you recommend for fighting the mirror? There is a decent amount of U/W miracles where I play, most of them running the Rest in Peace Combo main, and I'm trying to figure out a sideboard plan though I haven't gotten a chance to test the match yet. What sort of removal should I leave in? Any thoughts?
I run a semi standard U/W/r list without helm combo.
I would only keep terminus/swords post-board in the mirror if you have absolutely nothing else to bring (and then I would probably rebuild the sideboard as drawing blanks in the mirror is about the worst feeling ever playing miracles). As long as you have enough counterspells and a good feel for which cards are important at different stages of the game you will almost never run in to a scenario where it's "terminus or bust". Use the resources and fight for counterbalance and then jace, cement your boardposition with enough counterspells and win eventually in any way you want (most likely a clique killing them). Entreat is a way to steal a game where you have mulliganed/messed up/when your opponent has messed up but it's not plan A. Thinking about the game in the stages of cb -> jace you will soon realize that Terminus will have a to narrow application (swords even less so) to often. Also feel free to try different strategies that fits your playstyle and welcome to the source!:)
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I started testing with Einherjer's list a few weeks ago as I switched from playing various Delver decks. I really wanted to be able to play large amounts of basics and I missed playing counterbalance. Saw his list while reading a tournament report and have been playing it since. I have been testing the following (Einherjer's list with minimal changes):
3x Jace, The Mind Sculptor
4x Force of Will
4x Brainstorm
4x Sword to Plowshares
4x Terminus
1x Supreme Verdict
1x Counterspell
3x Entreat the Angels
3x Spell Pierce
3x Snapcaster Mage
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Counterbalance
4x Sensei's Divining Top
3x Tundra
2x Volcanic Island
4x Flooded Strand
3x Scalding Tarn
2x Arid Mesa
4x Island
2x Plains
1x Karakas
1x Mystic Gate
Sideboard:
2x Pyroblast
2x Red Elemental Blast
1x Mountain
1x Vendilion Clique
3x Rest In Peace
1x Supreme Verdict
2x Wear/Tear
3x Flusterstorm
Changes from original list:
MD: -1 Island
+1 Volcanic Island
-1 Tundra
+1 Mystic Gate
+1 Terminus
-1 Ponder
SB: -1 Supreme Verdict
+1 Flusterstorm
So far I've tested games against Esperblade, Delver of all Flavors(UWR, RUG, BUG), Death and Tax, BANT, Maverick, Shardless BUG, Nic Fit, 4 Color Loam, TES and ANT.
I've enjoyed the match ups I've played so far.The only deck that came close to being even in matches was Shardless BUG, but I blame that mostly on player error and being unfamiliar with playing against Liliana of the veil. Nic Fit seems like a joke when you play basics(I didn't win very much when I played against Nic Fit with Delver).
In the coming weeks I plan to test games against Jund, Rest in Pieces, the mirror, Sneak and Show, Elves and Deathblade.
What are the most difficult match ups? What decks take you to time a lot? Just trying to make sure I run a proper gauntlet before I consider playing this deck in a tournament.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I am glad you took my list for your testings! You won't be disappointed in the end, I still stand by this list, even though I did Ppay 4 REBs and not 2/2 - ah nevermind^^. I think you know what upsides and downsides your changes have over mine, but you aren't doing wrong things, you just approach it slightely different than I do - totally fair.
As of now there are no bad MUs, though there are a few I am not too confident with beating as of now. First those are the Lilly-Decks Jund and Shardless. both overdo us on CA and apply fair pressure while attacking our Hand and deploying Planeswalkers. Both MUs are not too easy, though winnable. You could tech them out with things like Blood Moon like I did back at GP Strasbourg but I think both, Shardless and Jund are on the decrease in any way given.
Secondly there are Death and Taxes and Sneak Attack. Both MUs aren't bad. They really aren't. But in the configuration I chose to battle with I don't feel confident with playing those decks. My list misses some serious threats against those approaches. Well, DnT has creatures, and we kill them - but I don't play Sulfur Elemental any more or stuff like that. Yeah, Show and Tell won't probably never ever resolve against Fluster, REB, Pierce, Force and Counterspell, but Sneak Attack might, as REB and Fluster are degraded to a "counter-their-counter".
Besides those four MUs I am confident with playing pretty much every other real deck - not counting random-rogue-strategies or "hate-dat-miracle"-piles packing serveral Sulfuric Vortex in their Sideboards. :D
I hope I could help you. If there are still any questions left, feel free to shoot 'em at me.
Greetings
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Chainer, Dementia Master
I started testing with Einherjer's list a few weeks ago as I switched from playing various Delver decks.
So far I've tested games against Esperblade, Delver of all Flavors(UWR, RUG, BUG), Death and Tax, BANT, Maverick, Shardless BUG, Nic Fit, 4 Color Loam, TES and ANT.
I've enjoyed the match ups I've played so far.The only deck that came close to being even in matches was Shardless BUG, but I blame that mostly on player error and being unfamiliar with playing against Liliana of the veil. Nic Fit seems like a joke when you play basics(I didn't win very much when I played against Nic Fit with Delver).
In the coming weeks I plan to test games against Jund, Rest in Pieces, the mirror, Sneak and Show, Elves and Deathblade.
What are the most difficult match ups? What decks take you to time a lot? Just trying to make sure I run a proper gauntlet before I consider playing this deck in a tournament.
You really should have spent more time on Sneak and Show first, then Tin-Fin. Nic Fit and Loam are not that important. One deck missing is Painter stone.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mackan
I would only keep terminus/swords post-board in the mirror if you have absolutely nothing else to bring in.
I think there is value in having a couple Terminus post-board. If you have EE then you could bring out Terminus for them instead, but otherwise I think it is important to have an answer to Entreats. Entreat is a pretty good trump and can get around Counterbalance easily. Also, I would leave in at least 2-3 Forces; you will be able to hard cast them by the end of the game. Other than that, Wear//Tear is very good, as are Cliques, Snapcasters, and REBs. Don't board out your Snapcasters. Even if they are RIP, they will most likely board them out, and if they don't then bad draws for them. If you are feeling really hateful, you can board a Luminarch Ascension, which is really good in the mirror but unnecessary for a wider meta. You can easily board out Plows, a Terminus or two, and maybe a Force or two.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
I think there is value in having a couple Terminus post-board. If you have EE then you could bring out Terminus for them instead, but otherwise I think it is important to have an answer to Entreats. Entreat is a pretty good trump and can get around Counterbalance easily. Also, I would leave in at least 2-3 Forces; you will be able to hard cast them by the end of the game. Other than that, Wear//Tear is very good, as are Cliques, Snapcasters, and REBs. Don't board out your Snapcasters. Even if they are RIP, they will most likely board them out, and if they don't then bad draws for them. If you are feeling really hateful, you can board a Luminarch Ascension, which is really good in the mirror but unnecessary for a wider meta. You can easily board out Plows, a Terminus or two, and maybe a Force or two.
Absolutely true in my opinion! Lategame Entreat gets around you softcounters often so an instant solution is very good.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hi guys,
Does Rest in Peace Miracles have his own threat or is it still being discussed here? Ik see a lot of discussion about the traditional Uwx Miracles, but I've always had succes with the following list:
Deck: Rest in Peace
Maindeck
1# Vendilion Clique
4# Brainstorm
4# Force of Will
2# Spell Pierce
4# Sword to Plowshares
2# Enlightened Tutor
4# Sensei’s Divining Top
1# Helm of Obedience
3# Rest in Peace
2# Energy Field
2# Counterbalance
1# Blood Moon
1# Detention Sphere
1# Entreat the Angels
3# Terminus
3# Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4# Flooded Strand
2# Polluted Delta
2# Arid Mesa
3# Tundra
2# Volcanic Island
5# Island
2# Plains
1# Glacial Fortress
1# Karakas
Sideboard
1# Engineered Explosives
1# Grafdigger’s Cage
1# Pithing Needle
1# Ensnaring Bridge
1# Ethersworn Canonist
1# Vendilion Clique
1# Counterbalance
1# Humility
1# Moat
1# Supreme verdict
2# Celestial Purge
2# Red Elemental Blast
1# Wear//Tear
The only problem, but I guess that counts also for the traditional build, is that you will draw too often in real life tournaments.. However, this deck can lock up others pretty fast and could force people to scoop. And sometimes it can even combo off pretty quick. Postboard this deck is pure hate! The sideboard answers everything. And some of the most played decks don't have answers vs cards like Rest in Peace, Energy Field, Moat, Blood Moon etc. Another problem with this deck is that I dislike opening hands a little more than with traditional Miracles, but overall I've had more succes with this list =)! Any comments about the list?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
@Lans89 I like your list. I am just a fan of rip helm miracles as a whole so you might say I'm a bit biased :p the big difference is that I like 4 terminus and 1 verdict because I like to watch the world burn. I really like verdict and even thought about going 3 terminus and 1 verdict. There have been many times where verdict being uncounterable has won me the game. They always expect terminus but not always verdict. I played rug and they went all out blitz T1 delver T2 blind flip delver cast delver T3 flip delver cast goyf T4 goyf and he ate the verdict on my turn 4 Bc he was on the play and he was a bit agitated to say the least. He told me he played into the board so hard Bc he had 2 forces both with pitch and spell pierce... so to say the least I wouldnt win that counter spell war most likely. Also not having to set up verdict just get to 4 mana for an uncounterable nuke seems good.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Also how is the match up against sneak and show... Bc it felt so awful I wanted to cry just a bit.... it was the first matchup that felt extremely negative and the decks I play against regularly is:
Rug
Dnt
Shardless bug
Team America
TES
Merfolk
Elf's
Burn
Blade
Maverick
And sneak and show
And S&h is the first that I felt I couldn't win except for stone cold nuts to a bad or shaky keep.
Any advice for the matchup pre and post board?
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I guess I should post something since I will officially be playing this deck soon. Here is my current list. I'd like to just have it in here for reference.
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance
3 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Vendilion Clique
1 Thassa, God of the Sea
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Mystic Gate
2 Karakas
4 Flooded Strand
1 Scalding Tarn
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Arid Mesa
SB
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Bloodmoon
3 Rest in Peace
2 Flusterstorm
1 Meddling Mage
1 Pithing Needle
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I think there is value in having a couple Terminus post-board. If you have EE then you could bring out Terminus for them instead, but otherwise I think it is important to have an answer to Entreats. Entreat is a pretty good trump and can get around Counterbalance easily. Also, I would leave in at least 2-3 Forces; you will be able to hard cast them by the end of the game. Other than that, Wear//Tear is very good, as are Cliques, Snapcasters, and REBs. Don't board out your Snapcasters. Even if they are RIP, they will most likely board them out, and if they don't then bad draws for them. If you are feeling really hateful, you can board a Luminarch Ascension, which is really good in the mirror but unnecessary for a wider meta. You can easily board out Plows, a Terminus or two, and maybe a Force or two.
I've never been a fan of the singleton narrow answers like that. I could see if my opponent had Snapcasters, though. You basically have to be floating the terminus on top of your deck, or have it in hand with a Brainstorm, which means it just about worse than any other answer in your deck. In my list, I'd be cutting an actual good card in the matchup to make room, since I cut:
-4 Swords
-4 Terminus
+1 Venser
+1 Entreat
+1 Counterbalance
+2 REB
+1 Unexpectedly Absent
+2 Engineered Explosives
Answers to Entreat late game are:
4 Force of Will
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Counterspell
1 Venser
3 Entreat (maybe...)
Early game or when it's less than lethal the card is obviously even easier to answer, but my point is that if you're not tapped out you can beat the card on the stack, and if you are, then Terminus on the angels isn't likely to happen, either.
I'm curious what people's sideboarding looks like in the mirror that they even consider cutting Force of Will. I suppose I'm running more removal than most? I think Joe leaves in spot removal for Vendilion Clique, but between 3 REB, 2 Engineered Explosives, and your own creatures, getting beatdown by the 5 creatures in your opponent's deck seem more of a nightmare than a real threat.
Jace on turn 4 on an empty board, now? CB + Top turn 2? How many games have you essentially been locked out of with nearly a full grip? I don't think Force is bad at all.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Never take out force of will in the mirror. In my experience (from tournaments and a 12 game testing session with a friend)*, the games almost always revolved around Jace and counterbalance. What's worth noting? The game can be over by turn 2 or 3. Almost all the games that we played were determined by who could resolve one of these two cards and keep it for at least a turn. Even though Miracles is a slow deck, some of our cards are so powerful that you need to make sure your opponent doesn't get them in play. Additionally, the games will go long (assuming neither of you run away with the game early), so hard cast force of will definitely becomes relevant. It's very tempting to take out forces, but it's really just too important to help you gain early control of the game.
On another note, Vendilion Clique is one of the best cards in the mirror. It doesn't necessarily run away with the game like balance and Jace (unless they can't find removal/stop it originally!), but it does a ridiculous amount for you. First, it pressures Jace, which is huge. Second, it sets up plays for you. When you can go Clique -> Take something valuable, your next turn you generally have the flexibility to play most anything from your deck safely. For basically these reasons, Clique is pretty much one of the best cards against anything that doesn't care about the combat step that much, and I really think there should be three somewhere in the 75. As has been mentioned, running it in the main feels kind of mediocre right now, but I've been toying with running a full 3 in the side which has been pretty appealing.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moose8583
Also how is the match up against sneak and show... Bc it felt so awful I wanted to cry just a bit.... it was the first matchup that felt extremely negative and the decks I play against regularly is:
Rug
Dnt
Shardless bug
Team America
TES
Merfolk
Elf's
Burn
Blade
Maverick
And sneak and show
And S&h is the first that I felt I couldn't win except for stone cold nuts to a bad or shaky keep.
Any advice for the matchup pre and post board?
Really? I find SnS one of the easier combo matchups honestly. What does your list look like?
Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, REB, Humility, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. are all good vs them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Patrunkenphat7
I guess I should post something since I will officially be playing this deck soon. Here is my current list.
Thassa is bad in this deck, it's not even certain if it would be a stable in any legacy decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Really? I find SnS one of the easier combo matchups honestly. What does your list look like?
Meddling Mage, Vendilion Clique, REB, Humility, Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. are all good vs them.
Your opponent is incompetent then. Let's look at Sneak and Show Primer on this forum:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?27217
"UWr Miracles 55:45
An annoying, but overall positive matchup. They have a lot of hate and games get really grindy once they have their countertop engine online. The big upside however is that they present absolutely no clock, which gives you all the time you need to sculpt the perfect hand. Still, the best-case scenario is an explosive
start with an early Sneak Attack, because later it can get difficult if they have a 3- and a 4-drop on top of their deck alongside Countertop.
Like against the other Karakas / Jace - decks you don't want to blindly go for Show and Tell into Emrakul if you can avoid it.
Bounce-spells are very important against Miracles, in anticipation of Pithing Needle, Ensnaring Bridge, Humility and sometimes even against Counterbalance or Entreat the Angels tokens.
Cards you want to sideboard against UWr Miracles: Through the Breach, Red Elemental Blast, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away, Vendilion Clique, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Progenitus"
Pre-board is actually really bad for Miracle, since it has too many dead cards like multiple StP and maybe some dead Supreme Verdict, and maybe dead RiP if you MD it. This match-up is another reason why RiP-Helm is bad. RiP is a dead card if your opponent's running a combo that's not too reliant on graveyard.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
I see this come up a lot, and I still disagree. The general plan postboard vs combo should be to get more aggressive / fishy (clique, meddling mage, etc) and to board out slower / dead cards. I've played agiainst a lot of good SnS players and played the matchup from the other side and still think it is in Miracles favor, maybe 65-35.
I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing differently if anything, but the consensus here in Atlanta is definitely in Miracles' favor for whatever that's worth.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Thassa is bad in this deck, it's not even certain if it would be a stable in any legacy decks.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. Are you saying that because Thassa hasn't proven itself as a "staple" in a Legacy deck, that means that it must not be good?
My list has 10 permanents maindeck that have UU in their casting cost. Her Think Tank ability is pretty solid in this deck with a top in play, and her creature body is pretty sick when it gets active. One scenario would be I have a Thassa and Counterbalance in play, and I play a Jace. I then suddenly also have a 5/5 indestructible creature in play to protect the Jace. You can also do shenanigans with flashy Cliques and protect with Karakas. She's a good win con that isn't as clunky as playing more miracles that get stranded in your hand at awkward times.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Moose8583
Also how is the match up against sneak and show... Bc it felt so awful I wanted to cry just a bit.... Any advice for the matchup pre and post board?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing differently if anything, but the consensus here in Atlanta is definitely in Miracles' favor for whatever that's worth.
I tend to agree. Really, any combo deck should be well in our favor. Show and Tell as a card isn't too scary, unless it is t1. It's usually Sneak Attack or SNT + Sneak Attack that cause problems. Ideally, your opening hand should be able to deal with the potential t1 or t2 SNT. The best way to do that is with cards to drop like Karakas, Venser, Pithing Needle, and ORing/DSphere, although Force, REB, and Pierce can sometimes be alright.
Next, since we are a relatively slow deck, you want to be able to form a mid-late game plan. Things that usually close out the game are Humility, Needle + Karakas, or Counterbalance + Top (with 3 and especially 4 cmc floating). Once you have one of these assembled, they will be fighting an uphill battle against your ever-accumulating counters and disruption. If you have a choice, always leave up a 3cmc when you pass back to them so that they don't Wipe Away EoT. For SBing, board in Venser, ORing/DSphere, Meddling Mage, Humility, Pithing Needle, REBs, Cliques, and any extra counters. You can board out RIPs, Plows, Entreats, Supreme Verdict(s), and a Terminus or two (I'd leave in ~2 Terminus if I had room). Note that some of the best SNT hate are 3 and 4 drops.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
If you have EE then you could bring out Terminus for them instead, but otherwise I think it is important to have an answer to Entreats.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Cipher
I've never been a fan of the singleton narrow answers like that. I could see if my opponent had Snapcasters, though. You basically have to be floating the terminus on top of your deck, or have it in hand with a Brainstorm, which means it just about worse than any other answer in your deck. In my list, I'd be cutting an actual good card in the matchup to make room, since I cut:
-4 Swords
-4 Terminus
+1 Venser
+1 Entreat
+1 Counterbalance
+2 REB
+1 Unexpectedly Absent
+2 Engineered Explosives
EE = Engineered Explosives, if you have those then you probably don't need Terminus since EE is just as cheap and much more versatile.
Although very narrow, it is sometimes applicable to counter their Terminus by flipping your own Terminus. Though if you have Supreme Verdict(s) in your board then it is probably better to just switch them out since 4cmc is relevant far more often.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thassa is the definition of win more. To have a 5/5 body, you need 3 permanents in play like Thassa + Jace + Counterbalance/Clique. In that situation, you should be winning already. Thassa doesn't dig you out of a hole against midrange/aggro, does not disrupt combo, and is a very very slow card quality generator. Another Clique, Entreat or Snapcaster would be better in the Thassa slot.
