[Deck] Dredge

Went 4-1 at my weekly legacy. Beat storm (ant), shardless, lands and R/b reanimator. My only loss was to a lands deck which went to three games and was very close. Against lands i believe its correct to side in lotv and keep the deck as explosive as possible, fast starts are our best strategy in this matchup. Naming crop rotation is paramount games one and two as some lists mainboard bojuka bog. I tried a different list that eschewed all putrid imps in favor of s.wraith. The deck is quad-esque minus an ichorid and p.imp instead playing three wraiths a dread return and the thirteenth land. Im really in favor of only three ichorids and challenge anyone to drop to three.....i think three seems like the right number. My favorite addition was going up to four breakthrough, hands with led and breakthrough were almost auto wins. There was maybe one instance where i wanted p.imp over a wraith but over all i was much happier with wraith......im starting to really dislike and may totally eschew putrid imp. Wraith not only protects our dredgers but can dig for draw spells which im really liking. On a side note remember that when playing against a tabernacle and a port if ported on upkeep you can float the mana to pay for a moeba or zombie to pay for the effect. Another tip to remember is tabernacle can never hit an ichorid. Finally, i think it would be extremely relevant to keep track of how often boarding in hate actually dictates the outcome of the game when our opponent lands a hate piece. In my opinion the fearless approach and being as fast as possible has proven optimal. Ive stripped hate much more often (with better results) then destroyed hate and gone on to win the game.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Went 4-1 at my weekly legacy. Beat storm (ant), shardless, lands and R/b reanimator. My only loss was to a lands deck which went to three games and was very close. Against lands i believe its correct to side in lotv and keep the deck as explosive as possible, fast starts are our best strategy in this matchup. Naming crop rotation is paramount games one and two as some lists mainboard bojuka bog. I tried a different list that eschewed all putrid imps in favor of s.wraith. The deck is quad-esque minus an ichorid and p.imp instead playing three wraiths a dread return and the thirteenth land. Im really in favor of only three ichorids and challenge anyone to drop to three.....i think three seems like the right number. My favorite addition was going up to four breakthrough, hands with led and breakthrough were almost auto wins. There was maybe one instance where i wanted p.imp over a wraith but over all i was much happier with wraith......im starting to really dislike and may totally eschew putrid imp. Wraith not only protects our dredgers but can dig for draw spells which im really liking. On a side note remember that when playing against a tabernacle and a port if ported on upkeep you can float the mana to pay for a moeba or zombie to pay for the effect. Another tip to remember is tabernacle can never hit an ichorid. Finally, i think it would be extremely relevant to keep track of how often boarding in hate actually dictates the outcome of the game when our opponent lands a hate piece. In my opinion the fearless approach and being as fast as possible has proven optimal. Ive stripped hate much more often (with better results) then destroyed hate and gone on to win the game.

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What was your side board like that included lotv? I keep feeling like I should be including something proactive like that, but can never decide what to cut for it.

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Originally Posted by Alexorrr

What was your side board like that included lotv? I keep feeling like I should be including something proactive like that, but can never decide what to cut for it.

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4 lotv
1 dread return
1 ashen rider
1 iona
1 chain of vapor
3 firestorm
1 darkblast
3 natures claim

Took first at a new local shop. Only 21 players showed, but prizing was guaranteed so I went home with a shiny Underground Sea! :D
I used my same list

Round 1: Infect 2-0; I try to not board in too much if any antihate at this point. Infect can kill you pretty quickly so you want to combo them out.
Round 2: Death & Taxes 0-2; I honestly think this matchup is pretty bad even though they don't have any permission. They have a multitude of cards that slow us down i.e. Thalia, Containment Priest, and Rest in Peace including a way to find it with Enlightened Tutor which is a blow out when they cast it end step or in response to Cabal Therapy.
Round 3: MUD 2-0; Game 2 was lucky for me in that he forgot to board in Platinum Angel. He realized this after he attempted tutor for it with Kuldotha Forgemaster activation. Presumably I would have been able to get it off the board with a DR'd Ashen Rider, but who knows how long that would have taken.
Round 4: Shardless BUG 2-1
Round 5: ID

Top 8
Quarter Finals: Miracles 2-0
Semi Finals: Death Shadow BUG; He didn't find his surgical Extractions in time.
Finals: Same Shardless BUG 2-0

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Originally Posted by Que

Took first at a new local shop.

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Nice!
Are you still running the Abrupt Decay/Petals sideboard?

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Originally Posted by slave

Nice!
Are you still running the Abrupt Decay/Petals sideboard?

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Yeah I am, however, I didn't cast Abrupt a single time this tournament. I do believe Lotus Petals to be correct post board though allowing you to pay for any taxing counters, allow for broken starts, and also helps to flashback Faithless Looting at times.

I opted to go more fearless this tournament which only cost me 1 game where I didn't have an answer for Cage which he played on turn 1. My hand that game was insane had he not dropped it. Later I found out he was only playing 1 copy alongside DRS and I think Surgical as other forms of hate.

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Originally Posted by Que

Yeah I am, however, I didn't cast Abrupt a single time this tournament. I do believe Lotus Petals to be correct post board though allowing you to pay for any taxing counters, allow for broken starts, and also helps to flashback Faithless Looting at times.

I opted to go more fearless this tournament which only cost me 1 game where I didn't have an answer for Cage which he played on turn 1. My hand that game was insane had he not dropped it. Later I found out he was only playing 1 copy alongside DRS and I think Surgical as other forms of hate.

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Im sold. Removing the claims for petals and going fearless. Nothing is more terrifying than a turbo-charged dredge deck. Most anything else of concern can be cleaned up with a dread returned ashen rider. Que, do you run street wraiths or putrid imps (maybe a split)? I think speed is the direction this deck wants to take for the near future.
Ps congratz.....no better feeling seeing dredge on top!

I've been wondering what the best split (if any) between putrid imp and street wraith should be myself. If the idea of fearless dredge is where the deck wants to go, then having four additional replacement effects seems more reasonable than some number of discard outlets that also sometimes attacks. I'm pretty new to the deck, myself, so I would love to hear thoughts on it, but I think giving the opponent as little opportunity as possible to interact with our board state (abrupt decay, etc) fits with the fearless mentality.

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Righto, took the deck out last night, just a regular night at the local;
Main > 8 Rainbow land, 4 Cephalids, 3 Icky, 3 Lotus Petal, 3 Street Wraith, 3 Breakthru.
No P.Imps or DR Main.
Side > 4 Claims, 3 Firestorm, 2 DR's, 2 Ashen Rider, 2 Rainbows, 1 Ingot Chewer, 1 Wispmare

I went 3-1. Beat Infect 2-0, Jund 2-0, Shardless BUG 2-1. Got beaten by Elves 0-2.
Almost every game 1 was a blowout. I actually had 2 games where I combed out most of the deck on turn1, and swung for the win the very next turn. Infect should have made it to game3 but a misplay cost him. BUG was difficult, though Street Wraith saved me in both games I won as he turn1'd DRS both times. LOL.
Elves turn2 combo win in both games. Sigh.
Didn't experience much hate, maybe I was just lucky? BUG was running LotV which got me in one game, didn't draw an answer.

Overall I was pretty happy, got 3rd behind Elves and some other chappie playing D&T.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Im sold. Removing the claims for petals and going fearless. Nothing is more terrifying than a turbo-charged dredge deck.

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I really like Petals in the main, but I don't think they'll stay. Reason being, for me they get their spot at the expense of something else. I'd prefer to have more Rainbows in there for unknown matchups and bring in the petals for the matches we need to be quick for.

I've been running a 2-2 split between Wraith/Pimp for a while, but decided to go just Wraith last night. I did miss Pimp exactly once, but Wraith is such a blowout against DRS that I think both have merit.

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Originally Posted by jimmythegreek

Im sold. Removing the claims for petals and going fearless. Nothing is more terrifying than a turbo-charged dredge deck. Most anything else of concern can be cleaned up with a dread returned ashen rider. Que, do you run street wraiths or putrid imps (maybe a split)? I think speed is the direction this deck wants to take for the near future.
Ps congratz.....no better feeling seeing dredge on top!

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My sb looks inherently different from yours at the moment. If you don't want to be completely cold to hate you might still want some type of anti hate (It's personal preference) in the form of claims, abrupt, or CoV. Up to you really. However, like I mentioned it was not uncommon for me simply board in 5 cards (3 Lotus Petals, 1 DR, and a Combo Target whether that be Iona or Ashen) for post board games.

My reasoning:
1. Against decks that pack permission (FOW, Daze, Spell Pierce) Lotus Petal will shine plus you still have Therapies.
1a. They also might not have FOW+Blue card in their opener (if they do its not the worst; they just 2 for 1'd themselves and assuming you have another discard outlet they will be heavily pressured to find an answer quickly).

2. Lets you accelerate your game-plan and generate zombies at a quicker pace; the less chances they have to interact the better. So while you build an overwhelming advantage they will be durdling with ponder.

And I've posted my list multiple times which is why I had stopped lol. I've been running a 2-2 split since the SCG IQ in LA last year: http://tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=16137&iddeck=120494

And thank you! This deck is most fun.

Ultimately I like to make my opponent uneasy and this deck accomplishes that very well. haha

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Originally Posted by Que

This deck is most fun.

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Indeed. :wink:

i've been playing lotus petals in the main for a while, que - when you side in your 5 cards to speed your deck up and give you an occasional silver bullet, what are you cutting? and does this change for those same 5 cards if you're on the play?

-rob

Went 4-0 and got 1st place in an 11-man tournament yesterday with the list below:

Artifacts/Enchantments:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Bridge from Below

Creatures:
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound

Spells:
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Dread Return

Lands:
4 Mana Confluence
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
1 City of Brass

Sideboard:
3 Firestorm
3 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Ashen Rider
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

Here's a quick summary of my match ups:

Rd1 Dark Maverick 2-1
Rd2 MUD 2-0
Rd3 TES 2-0
Rd4 BG Rock 2-0

Got myself a BFZ gameday playmat and a BFZ holiday gift box. Moving forward, I would probabaly add 2 Abrupt Decays and 2 Lotus Petals and take out 1Claim, 1 CoV, 1 Firestorm, and 1 Macabre. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the leaked WMCQ promo card to be real coz the regular foil abrupt decays are out of my budget.

Grats Shaboogs!

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Originally Posted by mistercakes

i've been playing lotus petals in the main for a while, que - when you side in your 5 cards to speed your deck up and give you an occasional silver bullet, what are you cutting? and does this change for those same 5 cards if you're on the play?

-rob

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I take out the 2 Pimps I have main board, 1 Ichorid ( I play 4 in the main), 1 Dredger (I play 12 maindeck), and 1 Careful Study and bring in the 3 Lotus Petals, DR, and Iona/Ashen Rider.

thanks, i was taking out 1 street wraith over the dredger. appreciate the reply.

Hello, all!

It's been a while since I've taken Dredge out for a spin, but I saw an interesting strategy recently: a friend of mine played Phantasmagorians in his LED list. Been following the thread on-and-off for a while, and I'm wondering whether anyone's tried that recently. I'm tempted to do the same because there's at least one flex spot in my maindeck (second reanimation target), and maybe a second (fourth Careful Study).

I've been running quads of the staples (LED, Therapy, Breakthrough, Faithless, Icky, Stinky, Troll, Thug, Bridge, Narco, City of Brass, Coliseum, Gemstones); pretty standard setup, but I've kept the fourth Ichorid and Thug in the main because I feel like it's really important to land our dredges and to have a full set of sac-able creatures. I'd be happy to explain my choices if anyone's interested.

With that having been said, I feel like there's a bit of room in the reanimation package for something else. I'm running two Dread Returns, a Flame-Kin Zealot, and either an Elesh Norn or an Iona. (N.B.: I don't think cutting a Dread Return is a good idea simply because it can barf out a whole load of zombies even without resolving.)

What attracts me to running one or two Phantasmagorians is that a) it can provide an out if we've got a bunch of stuff in hand that we need to dump, b) it can let us keep hands that are light on looting effects or land, and c) it's a black creature, so it synergizes with Ichorid the way PImp does but without requiring mana [EDIT: d) we can bin cards we don't want in the hand that aren't dredgers, too!].

I've found that oftentimes, when I'm running this deck, I have trouble finding enough mana [EDIT: or, more importantly, looting effects] to keep dredging at the rate I can manage in the first couple of turns, and that after not too long I get stuck with the dredgers in my hand even after a pretty strong opener. Going LED, Gemstone, Faithless into Breakthrough and Faithless is supremely effective, but the Shuffle Gods sometimes frown on us mortals and hand us only a few dredgers or leave a piece of the puzzle in the bottom ten (often Bridge from Below or Narcos) where we can't find it. Going to topdeck mode when you've got a full 'yard that's missing something crucial is never good, and I'm hoping that at least one Phantasmagorian can give me another out.

I'm reluctant to cut any of our looters or either Dread Return because they're so strong, but I think at least one of our reanimation targets can afford to get benched for game 1. Nut-drawing into turn-1 Iona is fantastic, but it's not a common enough occurrence for me to rely on it. I focused on Careful Study as the best cut from the rest of the deck because it's our least explosive Loot and it often turns dead after the first couple of turns.

What's everyone think? Any and all feedback is welcome!

Newb here.

So what is the current optimal "Fearless" deck list looking like currently? I of course have seen Feldman's list from back in the day, but could someone post a recently tuned example? Or point me to one of the 186 pages in this thread with one ;)

TIA

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Originally Posted by Zooligan

Newb here.

So what is the current optimal "Fearless" deck list looking like currently? I of course have seen Feldman's list from back in the day, but could someone post a recently tuned example? Or point me to one of the 186 pages in this thread with one ;)

TIA

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Well keep in mind that Feldman's list came before Faithless Looting was a thing. On that logic, people who wanted the explosive power of LED had to run cards like Deep Analysis, which were complete duds when you didn't have a LED to play. Now, with Faithless Looting, you can get the best of both worlds. I think the general consensus is that LED lists are superior to lists without, since you aren't sacrificing consistency for speed in the way that you once were.

Feldman (if I'm recalling correctly) also advocated against the inclusion of maindecked reanimation targets. For him, Dredge lost when it fails to dredge, and you shouldn't sacrifice your engine for any additional explosive power.

The spiritual successor to the Feldman mindset is probably the Quadlazer builds you see often, with perhaps one Dread Return included for reanimating a GGT and allowing some daggers out of the sideboard like Iona or Elesh.

Now, where the "Fearless" aspect comes from is that Feldman recommends against sideboarding anti-anti-dredge cards. The logic here is that to be effective, 1) Your opponent must have the card you're anticipating 2) They have to draw the card you're anticipating, and 3) You have to draw the card you brought in 4) that card is enough to beat the hate and 5) The dilution of your deck didn't slow you down too much to win. For him, it wasn't worth it to dilute the consistency and power of Dredge for such a low chance of a sideboard card making an impact on the match.

I'd currently take this with a grain of salt. Since the Feldman article, more powerful static graveyard hate cards like Rest in Peace were printed and presents a challenge that I don't believe Feldman anticipated. Where we used to play around cards like Tormod's Crypt by not overextending, some of the common modern hate cards aren't really practically challenged without some specific answer.

That said, it's a matter of preference. Personally, I enjoy having a flexible card like Nature's Claim that can pick off a Grafdigger's or a RiP, but the mathematics of Feldman's rational against anti-anti-Dredge cards is still persuasive. I'll see if I can scrounge up a sideboard that's had success without anti-hate, but the main decklist would be similar to most of the ones within the past few pages that have all 12 dredges and no maindeck reanimation targets.

Ah, so it seems that the fearless concept and the no-LED concept may have changed with the printing of some new(er than Feldman's article) cards. Let me back up a bit then. As a newb to the legacy scene looking to get in with a reasonably-priced, at least reasonably-competitive deck (probably MTGO only since the redonkulous spike in LED prices in paper), what's a good list to get my dredge on?

Feldman wrote a brief update in November 2014, still advocating for 'Fearless Dredge' and with some spicy tech. (e.g. Reveillark)

http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ew-Jersey.html