[DTB] Vial Goblins

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Originally Posted by arebennian

+1
You don't need 4+ lands to cast SGC (I used them simply as an example of cards that may be dead cards in your hand), you need them for Ringleader.

Running 21 lands, surely you are reliant upon a Lackey effect or vial and if one fails to stick, you just can't recover???

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you can indeed recover... that's 12 cards, you'll see multiple... also 3 land is all you really need to get out matron/hasters/all threats, sure there are situations where all your threats get forced/dazed/whatev... but that happens in any deck... my philosophy is, as with any shell I play, focused on explosive consistency... it fits my playstyle and I have very good results... play a build you feel most comfortable with and you will do well...

Just an aside... the 'optimal' builds are different in every area, and with everypilot based on playstyle... my build works very well for me... I ALWAYS finish t8 every time (although I do not play in 100+ man tourneys often, so take it as you may)

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Originally Posted by BreathWeapon

Fetching Ringleader over Commander is more or less removal dependent, if the opponent isn't MDing Fire Spout then Commander > Ringleader just for ending the game faster.

I've been really, really happy with this

4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Skirk Prospecter
3 Siege Gang Commander
4 Stingscrounger
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
17 Mountains

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Ringleader or SGC is removal dependent? I've looked back and seen you are also the guy was suggesting root maze and goblin bushwhacker, so do you really know what you are talking about?

I think you have a different playstyle than myself, and normally that would be ok, but that playstyle is suboptimal in the case of consistency. You will have explosive wins and blowouts with the idea of 3 SGC + 21 lands + 8 lackeys + 4 "stingscroungers" (another hint that you have no idea). But that is the strength of goblins, goblins is not an aggro-combo deck like it used to be. That is one way to play it, but you will see your win percentages drastically increase if you play this deck like an aggro-control deck instead. Which means fetching ringleader instead of SGC. The strength of goblins is it is both an aggressive deck and surprisingly consistent thanks to its manabase and card advantage engine - something a deck like zoo or belcher cannot claim, the two decks that are best at "Aggroing" and "Comboing" in a vacuum. And that is why MonoRed is my preferred style as well, because it increases the decks consistency, which is what I view goblins as - a consistent aggressive deck. The goal is to have your win percentages be as high as possible against the most popular decks, because mathematically that will lead to the best results. Whether these results happen is partially a game of chance, and will factor in lots of other factors like player skill. And playskill is good to have, but the ultimate goal of discussion is deckbuilding and raising win percentages. 21 Lands + 3 SGC is not going to raise win percentages against the most prevalent decks in any meta.

Skirk prospector? To be honest, I think I'd rather play a basic mountain over skirk prospector in any list, especially a list without crafter/sharpshooter.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

Ringleader or SGC is removal dependent? I've looked back and seen you are also the guy was suggesting root maze and goblin bushwhacker, so do you really know what you are talking about?

I think you have a different playstyle than myself, and normally that would be ok, but that playstyle is suboptimal in the case of consistency. You will have explosive wins and blowouts with the idea of 3 SGC + 21 lands + 8 lackeys + 4 "stingscroungers" (another hint that you have no idea). But that is the strength of goblins, goblins is not an aggro-combo deck like it used to be. That is one way to play it, but you will see your win percentages drastically increase if you play this deck like an aggro-control deck instead. Which means fetching ringleader instead of SGC. The strength of goblins is it is both an aggressive deck and surprisingly consistent thanks to its manabase and card advantage engine - something a deck like zoo or belcher cannot claim, the two decks that are best at "Aggroing" and "Comboing" in a vacuum. And that is why MonoRed is my preferred style as well, because it increases the decks consistency, which is what I view goblins as - a consistent aggressive deck. The goal is to have your win percentages be as high as possible against the most popular decks, because mathematically that will lead to the best results. Whether these results happen is partially a game of chance, and will factor in lots of other factors like player skill. And playskill is good to have, but the ultimate goal of discussion is deckbuilding and raising win percentages. 21 Lands + 3 SGC is not going to raise win percentages against the most prevalent decks in any meta.

Skirk prospector? To be honest, I think I'd rather play a basic mountain over skirk prospector in any list, especially a list without crafter/sharpshooter.

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For sure bro, well put... Clueless indeed...

I would just like to clarify that it wasn't so much the 21 land + 3 SGC that bothered me, though I do sort of disagree with that, just the idea of SGC being target #1.

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Originally Posted by Morbid-

And last, sideboarding: I've read about some of the strategies in Tournament Reports. Obviously you're taking out your goblin body count (or are you? Do you ever take out Vial?). So at what point does, say, does it hurt to add in hate because you're killing your Ringleader rips? This kind of applies for putting Pillars/Thorns in the SB and putting 7-8 cards in. Is it really worth it? Any comments or thoughts? I think I covered all the bits, and of course, thanks for any constructive comments.

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If you're bringing in thorns/pillars, (for some reason you think you have a chance against combo) the last thing you give a damn about is making ringleader worse, as CA means jack shit here. Your job is to play T1 lackey/vial, T2 hate, (ideally T3 other hate) and be cheating in dudes all the while. You usually take out ringleaders against decks like combo and ichorid (stingscourgers and incincerators go out first against combo, but are fine against ichorid, as they kill guys on your side of the field and thus remove bridges. Drivers and chieftains are your friends against combo and combo-ish decks like enchantress, ichorid, ect, as drivers and co allow you to kill them before they combo kill you. Ringleaders CA means little when he is a 2/2 haste against their hand of (kill you next turn).

hi there, I've been testing this version of mono red goblins and i would like to share it with you:

// Lands
4 [TE] Wasteland
18 [UG] Mountain

// Creatures
3 [PLC] Stingscourger
1 [ON] Goblin Piledriver
4 [US] Goblin Lackey
1 [MOR] Lightning Crafter
4 [ZEN] Warren Instigator
4 [M10] Goblin Chieftain
1 [SC] Siege-Gang Commander
4 [US] Goblin Matron
3 [LE] Gempalm Incinerator
1 [CHK] Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
4 [AP] Goblin Ringleader
4 [SC] Goblin Warchief

// Spells
4 [DS] AEther Vial

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IA] Anarchy
SB: 1 [SHM] Boartusk Liege
SB: 1 [ON] Goblin Sharpshooter
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [MI] Goblin Tinkerer
SB: 4 [AL] Pyrokinesis

i'm not going to comment all the cards but the things that maybe come to mind when you're looking into this list.

1 piledriver: i think that with the chieftain addition, warren instigator is much better in this slot than piledriver. Piledriver helps you doing lackey => warchief => piledriver piledriver but in topdeck mode it's useless. On the other hand, the double strike clause of instigator makes it to a lot of damage when paired to chieftain even if blocked you can trade with a lot of creatures. Defending warren is also better than piledriver, so that's why he's only a 1-of for me.

1 Commander + 1 kiki-jiki + 1 crafter instead of 3 commanders: I know landing him with lackey effects its awesome, but there are moments where i need to kill creatures and still be tapped out, so crafter does a good work here. Also the champion abbility is rarely a problem but a good way to reuse matrons or ringleaders if removed. The addition of kiki-jiki does give the deck a lot of useful tricks to do with nearly every creature in our deck (lackeys + lords + matrons + ringleaders + commander...). I rarely regret to do warren => matron => kiki-jiki. I'll have the opportunity to tutor two more times before i attack again and that's huge.

22 lands no ports: i prefer 22 lands than 23 and not using ports cause of the double :r::r: of warrens and the 8 lords. they're easier to play.

Sb i think is pretty common.(anarchy is my repsonse on-color to humility + moat + solitary confinement and so on....)

Feel free to do any comments/suggestions.

Thorin

need more SGC.

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Originally Posted by thorin_the_king

1 piledriver: i think that with the chieftain addition, warren instigator is much better in this slot than piledriver. Piledriver helps you doing lackey => warchief => piledriver piledriver but in topdeck mode it's useless. On the other hand, the double strike clause of instigator makes it to a lot of damage when paired to chieftain even if blocked you can trade with a lot of creatures. Defending warren is also better than piledriver, so that's why he's only a 1-of for me.

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pssst. piledriver = pro blue.

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Originally Posted by santeria

pssst. piledriver = pro blue.

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i know it, and does it going to serve me where? in the merfolk matchup. It's one of our easier matchup. if it where pro green or white i would play more

I agree with more SGC

With more Lackey effects and Vials, its not that hard to get a SGC going.

I am currently running 23 lands and lately have been dissappointed in getting mana flooded. I will try to reduce it to 22.

Heres what I am planning to run right now:

16 Mountains
4 Wasteland
2 Rishadan Port

4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Goblin Ringleader
3 Goblin Piledriver
3 Warren Instigator
3 Stingscouger
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Goblin Chieftain
3 Siege-Gang Commander

Good enough? Apparently, Lightning Crafter is good. So would anyone advice removing one Goblin Warchief for him?

Play 61 cards ;-)

That is the deck I play, changing +1 Insitgator, +1 LC, +1 Piledriver, -Chieftain, -1SGC,

I randomly take out a SGC for Kiki some times.
Instigator into Matron into SGC or Ringleader can leave you sitting there vulnerable for a turn. Searching for Kiki allows you to tap during their EOT for a Matron effect or a Instigator effect.
Saves you from Firespout/WOG if you copy matron. Gives them 2(or 3) Instigators to face next turn.

@ Arbennian: I strongly disagree with what you are saying, playing 61 cards is terrible in an aggro deck.

How is instigator --> matron --> ringleader make you vulnerable? You just helped refill your hands with more goblins from ringleader. You probably shouldn't go for instigator --> matron --> SGC unless in certain situations. One of these situations is definitely NOT when you are expecting firespout/WOG. The game plan against sweeper decks like the rock is to play the shit out of your ringleaders while still applying a lot of presure, as these decks are capable of handling explosive SGC starts a lot of the time. So I don't see what the point of Kiki is from the argument you posted, as you won't need to recover if you are consistently refilling your hand.

Being down and out and topdecking SGC and hard casting it is one of the best feelings in all of Magic. He is often the deck's second/third wind or the tipping point for victory. Kiki can do some busted things but I have to echo the sentiments of the players long gone that he is not worth the spot in this deck.

@ nameless one, that is disappointing that 23 lands led to too much flooding for you. :P I've tried many configurations, and bleh, I'd rather be flooded than screwed with this deck.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

@ Arbennian: I strongly disagree with what you are saying, playing 61 cards is fucking terrible in any deck.

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Fixed.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

@ Arbennian: I strongly disagree with what you are saying, playing 61 cards is terrible in an aggro deck.

How is instigator --> matron --> ringleader make you vulnerable? You just helped refill your hands with more goblins from ringleader. You probably shouldn't go for instigator --> matron --> SGC unless in certain situations. One of these situations is definitely NOT when you are expecting firespout/WOG. The game plan against sweeper decks like the rock is to play the shit out of your ringleaders while still applying a lot of presure, as these decks are capable of handling explosive SGC starts a lot of the time. So I don't see what the point of Kiki is from the argument you posted, as you won't need to recover if you are consistently refilling your hand.

Being down and out and topdecking SGC and hard casting it is one of the best feelings in all of Magic. He is often the deck's second/third wind or the tipping point for victory. Kiki can do some busted things but I have to echo the sentiments of the players long gone that he is not worth the spot in this deck.

@ nameless one, that is disappointing that 23 lands led to too much flooding for you. :P I've tried many configurations, and bleh, I'd rather be flooded than screwed with this deck.

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I might be doing it wrong but recently, I have a Warren Instigator or Goblin Lackey going but nothing to drop but lands. Also, on late game situations, I hate getting only 1 goblin off of Ringleader.

I'll try to tinker some more and see.

It does happen. I like to mulligan rather aggressively with this deck because I feel there is a large difference between a good and average hand, so that might be a factor as well. In my testing 22 lands works pretty much just fine and plenty of sourcers seem to enjoy it, I just have a natural tendency to play more lands than the norm, particularly in a deck like goblins (ex. I will stick to the 18 standard for tempo thresh). What I'm more curious about is if 16 mountains works for you, that will take some time to actually tell the impact.

If I was to play your list and wanted to fit in crafter I'd probably go -1 Chieftain for him, but that is because I haven't developed the man crush that seems to be the norm for chieftain for some reason. 7-8 haste effects is great in certain matchups but I feel like 6 is enough to reliably get one when you need it, and that the +1/+1 only really makes a difference in the very late game when you will probably be able to acquire one of the two in my preboard list through matron/ringleader/naturally if you really need it. I've said it before but I don't think goblins should place too much emphasis on the combat zone (the +1/+1), as our pile of onslaught block garbage will be quickly outclassed by legitimate legacy combat zone cards.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

It does happen. I like to mulligan rather aggressively with this deck because I feel there is a large difference between a good and average hand, so that might be a factor as well. In my testing 22 lands works pretty much just fine and plenty of sourcers seem to enjoy it, I just have a natural tendency to play more lands than the norm....

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A big risk of a choice mulligan is that your hand will downgrade to a forced mulligan.

If you run more land, you can mulligan more often, more safely (because you'll be forced to mulligan to 5 less often), and you're also stuck with fewer forced mulligans to six. The cost is that your deck's endgame is slightly weaker because it has a land instead of a business spell.

It will look like you're taking more optional mulligans (and therefore mulligans), but what you're doing is really just an extension of having, in general, more options and less power.

If you run fewer land, you'll find yourself taking more forced mulligans (obvious mulligans) and fewer choice mulligans because a mulligan is more risky. If you're running more land, one way you can take advantage of it by taking more mulligans off of soft hands.

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Originally Posted by FoulQ

I would just like to clarify that it wasn't so much the 21 land + 3 SGC that bothered me, though I do sort of disagree with that, just the idea of SGC being target #1.

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Because it's better to "default" to 1 card all of the time than to admit there's a time and a place for either based on their deck and your hand? Getting Ringleader vs Storm or Ichorid is sub-optimal, getting SGC vs Landstill is sub-optimal ... I digress.

If you've got a better idea for a 1 drop to round the curve, I'm all ears; and fuck yes on 4xScrounger, connecting with Lackey is ridiculous - I'll maximize that play by any means.

@ BreathWeapon, this debate is pointless, in a way. Of course there will be times when fetching SGC is the play to make. But those plays are much less often than when fetching ringleader.

I would be inclined to agree with just about everything mr Q says regarding goblins... he's got a shit ton of experience with the deck, probably (most definitely) more than myself... plus he's right about the build... it's solid, don't argue, just try it...

So keep playing with the 23-land mana base?

And sub Lightning Crafter for Goblin Chieftain?

I actually like Goblin Chieftain because it helps Warren Instigator late game, especially with the double strike. It also helps with math combat sometimes. Oh well, I dont have much experience with Goblins.

Also, what is the general consensus on slots dedicated to Siege-Gang Commander? would 2 be enough in a mono-red build with 7 Lackey effects and Vials or should I bump it up to 3?