Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
rsaunder
I can see this. The numbers haven't been there! But the meta may be shifting away from landstill. I'm worried about 43land.dec coming back in enough numbers that you might have a shot at facing it (anyone who says this matchup is something other than an auto-loss is wrong. Maybe their opponent was a 3-year-old who wouldn't read idk) That alongside ichorid, which although winnable is still bad.
I think the meta's shifted away from us a little bit. At least in our current form.
A little bit, I still feel like I'm advantaged in pretty much all but 2 or 3 cases (Merfolk, Ichorid, and 43Land).
I'm thinking of altering my SB to something like this:
3 Meddling Mage (Storm Combo, Loam decks, Ichorid)
3 Path to Exile (Creature decks)
3 Extirpate (Loam decks, Reanimator, Ichorid)
3 Negate (Storm Combo, Potentially Mirror)
2 Crucible of Worlds (Loam Decks, Mirror, Tempo/LD Decks)
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress (Merfolk/Progenitus)
I'm not sure if it's really going to solve all of my problems, but having access to Crucible effects and 6 ways of turning off Life from the Loam seems advantageous. Plus all of those cards have value in other match-ups.
3x Extirpate is most likely not going to be enough against Ichorid, but tight play can sometimes pull that matchup out (Wishful thinking I know).
I've been performing well against storm combo with the 3 MM 3 Negate package so I'd like to keep it in. What I'm losing that I had before was Vindicates as an all around answer for decks with permanent based lock/disruption pieces, but I don't know if that's a big deal or not.
Any thoughts? What are other people trying? I suppose I should mention I'm in the FoF camp and not the Wish camp.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mossivo1986
1.) What kind of graveyard recursion package am I going to need to combat this metagame?
2.) How do I fight fish decks/tribal and continue to keep my other matchups at atleast 50% or higher.
-Moss
1.) 4 Relic appears to be the right mixed meta call imo. At least that's what I've been packing at recent tourneys.
1.1) Crypt* [even with that fancy Ruins recursion option]/Extirpate don't seem powerful enough to me to be considered anylonger.
* E.T. toolbox has become too slow.
2.) The black splash seems to be weaker than ever - this is mainly due to Plagues having become quite useless due to amount of "Lords" both, in current Merfolk as well as in current Goblins.
Also I've found myself boarding out 2/3 Vindicates way too often.
2.1) I've been testing a UWR version for quite a while now and I gotta say Firespout/Ajani V./SB-REBs >> Vindicate.
--
I don't want to start any "hot-or-not" (Jace, Wish..) debates all over. But as it looks, we should reconsider some choices.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
1.) 4 Relic appears to be the right mixed meta call imo. At least that's what I've been packing at recent tourneys.
1.1) Crypt* [even with that fancy Ruins recursion option]/Extirpate don't seem powerful enough to me to be considered anylonger.
* E.T. toolbox has become too slow.
2.) The black splash seems to be weaker than ever - this is mainly due to Plagues having become quite useless due to amount of "Lords" both, in current Merfolk as well as in current Goblins.
Also I've found myself boarding out 2/3 Vindicates way too often.
2.1) I've been testing a UWR version for quite a while now and I gotta say Firespout/Ajani V./SB-REBs >> Vindicate.
--
I don't want to start any "hot-or-not" (Jace, Wish..) debates all over. But as it looks, we should reconsider some choices.
I would suggest retesting against LED dredge and recursion strategies. Relic is simply too slow, and Extirpate against dredge is possibly the worst of all the graveyard hate cards you can use against them, led or otherwise.
A decievingly good card could be Bojuka Bog from W.W. Not only is it a land (un therapy-able) but its also a built in crypt (obv) a swamp (good for Engineered plague strategy) and also proves usefull against recursion.dec (though sorcery speed isn't phenominal by any standard. Thus it would have to be aided with other options.) It is with this declaration that another option may or may not be innocent blood or the like.
Also if your having a problem with Lords (E.P.) then your allowing the gamestate to get out of hand, and I don't exactly understand why that is, because last I remember you run infinate farming tools. Maybe it could be a lack of EE, but I don't remember your list.
so list me? :)
The last list I ran was:
4 flooded
1 marsh
1 delta
4 tundra
1 sea
1 scrub
3 plains
3 island
3 mishra
1 ruins
1 dustbowl
1 E. Dragon
4 force
4 snare
2 c.s.
3 b.s.
3 still
3 top
4 stp
3 ee
2 wog
1 humility
1 disk
1 path
2 decree
2 elspeth
2 wish
sb:
1 ray of dist.
1 path
1 pate
1 pulse
1 e tutor
3 relic
3 counterbalance
4 e. plague
Looking back I can see that the sb needs tuning for a (national) metagame perspective. relic needs to be split or removed in favor of faster gy dependant decks aka land or crypt or mixture of both.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Sort of the same problem I've noticed in the last month. Too many bad match ups, too little space in the sideboard and main deck.
Storm combo is horrible preboard, both Reanimator and Dredge are horrible preboard, Zoo gives you problems with high amount of burn (even if you run wish->pulse, they drop down with sylvan library), and after s/b it brings the Sulfuric Vortexes and stuff. Merfolk is problematic as well, along with Tempo Thresh though to the less extent. You can't adress all that.
What really works against ichorid is a combination of hate: Humility, plague, relics, ee etc. Hard to pull off, even after sideboarding.
The best I could pull off against fast aggro (zoo, merfolk) is to go with red splash for Lightning Helix, Firespout, and manabase of only 4 non-colored lands (Mishra) to stabilize the heavy use of red, and running some relics main. Along with Wish for Ravenous Trap/Extirpate that may give you time to slow roll the graveyard based strategies. Combo is still horrible and has to be fixed by S/B
This is what I've run in S/B just to combat these 2 strategies (Ichorid/graveyard and combo):
SB: 3 [PS] Meddling Mage
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [DS] Pulse of the Fields
SB: 1 [PLC] Extirpate
SB: 1 [TSP] Return to Dust
SB: 1 [CFX] Path to Exile
So sort of 7 anti combo slots and 6 anti-graveyard slots. Still barely enough and there's absolutely no space for anything else. The thing is, there's no space for Humility or Wrath main and you start losing to Natural Order and goblins more often.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
I'm currently testing the UWr Wish version, like Claus, with a Sideboard including:
3x Relic
1x Rav. Trap
-> Loam,Dredge,Survival,Reanimator,maybe Relics for Combo
2xPath
2xFirespout
->aggro,tribal,dredge,
2xNegate
2xReB
->Combo,Mirror,Merfolk,Control
1x Pulse
1x E Tutor
1xDismantling Blow
->Wish targets
I'd love to play with Vindicate,but Wish seems to be the better choice in the moment.
Even if you might not give a shit about my opinion :D.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
It's a sad day today. I haven't been on this site for a while but today i couldn't find you guys in the DTB thread.
Anyway, regarding graveyard hate, I like my relics and engineered explosives to wipe their tokens. A few plagues are also nice against ichorid
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Felidae
I'm currently testing the UWr Wish version, like Claus, with a Sideboard including:
3x Relic
1x Rav. Trap
-> Loam,Dredge,Survival,Reanimator,maybe Relics for Combo
2xPath
2xFirespout
->aggro,tribal,dredge,
2xNegate
2xReB
->Combo,Mirror,Merfolk,Control
1x Pulse
1x E Tutor
1xDismantling Blow
->Wish targets
I'd love to play with Vindicate,but Wish seems to be the better choice in the moment.
Even if you might not give a shit about my opinion :D.
I'm a huge fan of the UWr version, and I'm fiddling around with a list with the help of gustha, but thinking about picking it up for good. What does your list look like, if I might ask?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Lands (23)
3x Flooded Strand
2x Arid Mesa
1x Scalding Tarn
4x Tundra
1x Volcanic
1x Plateau
2x Island
2x Plains
1x Mountain
3x Mishras
3xWasteland
24th Land/Tutor:
1x Eternal Dragon
Counter:
4x FoW
4x Cs
Removal:
4x Stp
3x EE
2x Wrath
1x Firespout
Winoption:
3x Decree
2x Elspeth
1x humility
Ca/Tutor:
4x Brainstorm
3x Standstill
3x FoF
2x Wish
A short explanation:
1) Mana: Nothing special, 3 red sources have been enought in my oppinon (if I'd run 3 Vindicates I wouldn't play more black sources either)
2) Counter: Running only 8 counter instead of 10 might be a personal note, even if I miss the Spellsnare sometimes. My MU's against Zoo, Merfolk, Goblins and Dredge have been improved by adding a 3rd Decree and an additional boardsweeper (Wrath or Firespout), while my Combo MU's have been weakend a bit, allthough they are still winable (thanks to the Sideboard, wich could include more stuff against Combo if it is needed).
3) Ca: I simply love FoF, after testing Top, Jace and FoF (in different variants of each card slot) FoF ahs proven himself as the best card (again only my personal view).
4)Winoption: From the first time I picked this deck up since today I'll allways loved Humility. It's a gamewinning card preboard and a card that needed to be answerd preboard.
Elspeth and Decree are self-explanatory.
Any Suggestions about the list?
cheers
Felidae
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
@our status
I think LS is just underplayed.
There are some difficult matchups for landstill. The combo matchup was allways bad. But what exactly is the meta game change, that landstill is maybe out of date? Maybe some one can analyse this.
In my opinion its the upcoming of zoo, merfolk and maybe loam. And we have the old contenders like dredge, storm combo, (reanimate), lands.
My questions are:
1. Do we need a faster maindeck to hold the line for example with zoo?
Can this be solved by:
a) Another splash like red, which gives us firespout instead of wrath, helix and REB for the board? Firespout vs Wrath???
b) Additional instant removal like path to exile and cut the clunky cards like cunning wish/ vindicate (but vindicate was allways bad :tongue:)
2. What sideboard do we need to hate the graveyard/ storm combo?
a) vs combo: Meddling Mage is MVP
b) Which combination of relic, crypts extirpates.
As mentiomed by klaus, relic seems the best choice, but it can sometimes be to slow or u have to keep the mana open. I also dont want to forget extirpate because its really nice vs Loam with the new rules, because they cant get the Loam back with burning wish.
Dredge isnt that hard in my opinion, just because we have explosives, which is also a MVP card vs zoo. Why not playing 4 EE and cut a wrath? But I see also a lot of teegs in the board.
Core:
23 Lands
Draw 9-11:
3-4 Standstill
3-4 Brainstorms
0-2 Fact or Fiction
0-3 SDT
Counter 10:
4x Force
3x Counterspell
3x Spell snare
Removal:
4x Swords
3-4 Explosives
0-2 Path to exile
Wrath/Firespout
bombs:
2x Elspeth
0-2x Humility
2x Decree
There are also some cards which are really out of date for me:
E-Dragon
Vindicate
Dust Bowl
Jace (just not good in an aggro; aggro-control meta)
All are just too mana intensive.
Example List:
UWb:
23 Lands
4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spell snare
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT
4x Swords
2x Path to exile
4x explosives
1x Wrath
2x Elspeth
2x Humility
2x Decree
Just straight forward list, no utility slot for Crucible and no Fact. Utilize the full playset of standstills with additional removal and land some bombs. I would not go below 2 Humility because they still wreck the total meta and they are superior to wrath.
UWr
23 Lands
4x FoW
3x Counterspell
3x Spell snare
4x Standstill
4x Brainstorm
2x SDT
4x Swords
2x Path to exile /Lightning Helix
3x explosives
2x Firespout
2x Elspeth
2x Humility
2x Decree
I splashed Firespout for wrath. I would still prefer Path to exile over Helix. Helix shines in the tribal and zoo matchups but Helix cant kill goyfs and dies to spell snare.
@Felidae
Some notes on your list:
You have to play at least 3 Spell snares.
Cut the E-dragon.
Why 3 wastelands and no crucible?
I would not play a basic mountain.
I think u should choose between wrath or firespout.
3 FoF are to clunky for me, add some Tops.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Just 2 quick remarks:
against combo:
I run 4 canonnist, 1 enlightened tutor and 3 exirpate aganist combo and can tell you that of you look at a whole match you are slightly favored against ANT since game 1 is practically a game loss. For boarding in 8 slots that's not too much to be proud of. Luckily extirpate is mainly in the board for other match-ups. Meddling mage is only a very slight annoyance for ANT and I can hardly believe it to be an MVP against combo. They have too many routes to victory while you can cut off only one.
Vindicate:
I'll admit it's slow, but the versatility is amazing. I am sure that if it wasn't for vindicate I'd be splashing red.
A quick question to the others:
What is your opinion about eternal dragon anyway? I still play one and I wasn't intending to cut it, but what makes eternal dragon worth it's spot? Are there perhaps alternatives?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
i_need_the_extra_turns
@our status
...
Just straight forward list, no utility slot for Crucible and no Fact. Utilize the full playset of standstills with additional removal and land some bombs. I would not go below 2 Humility because they still wreck the total meta and they are superior to wrath.
...
Heartily agreed on the at least 2x Humility, it's a beast.
Interesting lists, I've been thinking about cutting E-Dragon for either 1x Path or the third Top, I'll have to see what I like more.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
@ Timewalk (seems shorter then your name ;) )
I run 3 Wastelands to be able to blow away Mutavaults, Mishras, Ports, etc. against Merfolk, Dreadstill, Goblins etc. Crucible might be worth the slot, but I can't find place for it right now.
FoF seems to be better then Top, I think Gushta pointed out some reasons a page befor (it's still a personal favor I guess :D).
The basic mountain provides me with the red mana I need for my sb cards, without the risk of a Wasteland.
E. Dragon might be slow, but he provides you more landdrops under Standstill (he seem's to be not needed in your list, as you run Top to make your landdrops).
I like your lists including the full Standstill power along with 2 Humilitys, deffinitly need to check them out :).
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
After looking at some lists and thinking, I started at the basics (ie., just a shell) again. I do think the metagame right now is really diverse (a good thing for Legacy, probably not so great for us :tongue:), so obviously we focus on what we're most likely to see. I put UWb on the backburner to retest and redo the list, but in the process, I picked up UWr (gustha's), and got very interested. A big thanks to Luca and Geoff, whom I discussed strategies with the UWb list but likely will/can port over to UWr. Anyhow, excuse for a long boring post, I do happen to be in class right now with nothing interesting going on.
As mentioned, I started with gustha's list that we discussed, with the idea in mind to reassemble Landstill to beat the metagame (for those of you who don't get the reference, I know some of you do not have premium). Using another article that Stephen wrote, there was conveniently a cheat sheet for figuring out the highest percentages of the field. At least for me. I know the European metagame is different, and the list / matchups are different, but in the USA, the last Meandeck Open in Columbus looked like this. Sorry for being selfish, I do have to take care of my own metagame first. That cheat sheet, by the way, is available to all.
Our Landstill lists are divided into sections, that each fit a role, so we can take a look at each one: (1) Removal / (2) Draw / (3) Countermagic / (4) Win / (5) Lands / (6) MD Flex slots + Sideboard. I'll comment a little on each section, as my list is still nowhere close to test ready. Some sections are redundant, as there is a consensus on most of this stuff anyways. I didn't exactly follow the 5-step method as proposed in the article; my time is limited with school, at least for the next 6 months or so. Anyhow, if you ever wanted to see the thought processes in my head, now is a good time to do so.
1. Removal (longest section, other ones are a little shorter)
1.1 Spot Removal. In general, right now I feel that our concensus picks here are actually just 4x Swords. This is pretty much the consensus card in Legacy for creature removal. From what we all have most likely found out through testing, it most likely isn't enough on its own, and some lists are including Path to Exile as an extra 1-2-3 of. It's no surprise that the top 10 is flooded with Merfolk, Zoo, CounterTop, Goblins, etc. Even 43/38/whatever the hell is number is today-Land will feature a variety of Manlands to deal with. We need early answers to their early threats. I think 4 StP / 2 PtE is perfect here.
1.2 Board Sweepers - Sorcery. Wrath of God has traditionally been the choice for Landstill, but how difficult is it to actually play through mana denial packages, Daze, and other disruption? My recommendations are not to cut it, per se, but right now,there are decks that can play around it like Zoo (each drop is a threat, and only 1-2 need to be present at any time to give enough pressure), or just don't care (read: Goblin Ringleader). This is one of the main reasons I went to Firespout to clear the swarms. It's a great answer but its use is limited against cards like Rhox War Monk, Tarmogoyf, Vendilion Clique, and what's becoming more popular, NO + Progenitus. It does, however, come down a turn earlier and doesn't require WW. (Also included but not mentioned: Day of Judgment)
1.3 Board Sweepers - Artifacts. Engineered Explosives. 3x, maybe even 4x. I'll spare us the details, we all know how strong this card is, especially with Academy recursion. I think Disk should be nowhere in the conversion right now.
1.4 Board Sweepers - Enchantments. Okay, this is where it gets rough. Humility or not? After cutting it, hating it, and not liking its role in my list, I did a 180 and put it back in. Why? Because in the WoG/DoJ slot, this card loses some effect. The game state is helped, but it's not what I wanted at that specific point in time. It is a support spell rather than a true board sweeper. Its effect is increased with a previous turn Firespout or EE activation, severely cutting into recovery time for the opponent. Also, there is no EP out of the board to deal with tribal, and no answers to a combo like NO-Progenitus / Hexmage-Depths, so I'm definitely planning on including at least one copy. I agree that Krosan Grip exists, but that's a risk I'm willing to take, especially with this card available in g1.
1.5 Conclusions. 4 StP / 2 PtE / 2 Firespout / 3 EE / 1 Humility is what I will be planning on testing, cutting the fat if needed. Wrath may and probably will creep back in there at some point. Right now, the list is still in shambles, so cards may be cut for others, or cut overall to make 60 (or 61) /15.
2. Draw
Yeah, don’t worry, the removal section was the longest because of how many choices, and that each type of card is used differently. This section is way shorter. There is a preference in draw package for each member here, and understandably; it is what makes Landstill customizable. I personally believe that SDT is the better choice of draw package in the metagame, which gives you the ability to focus somewhat on card quality rather than quantity. The different roles that our cards fall into makes SDT’s filtering capability shine, acting like a reusable Ponder each turn. The draw package I am thinking of running will be 3 Standstill / 3 Brainstorm / 3 SDT / x Jace. Jace covers the 3cmc and is incredibly potent with SDT, I just don’t know how many I will run just yet. The choice of SDT trumped over the FoF draw package because of Counterbalance out of the SB, which I’ll talk about later.
3. Countermagic
Again, a shorter section. 4x Force of Will and whatever else, depending on your metagame. My UWb version had a 4 FoW / 3 CS / 3 Spell Snare split, and I had no problems running that. I plan to retest the same package, although I’m sure I may have to cut something with the size of my removal/draw packages. Gustha’s list had a 4/4 split of FoW and Spell Snare, but my biggest gripe about it was a lack of more diverse countermagic for some lower tier decks (Stax comes to mind, holy shit did I get blown out in testing. A bunch of dead removal cards + no CS = rough game) However, since this is going to be tuned to attack the top decks in Legacy, that split may be the correct choice. Again, will be able to determine the magic number with testing.
4. Win
Elspeth is essential here to win, and is included without question. All three abilities are useful here. The other planeswalker here, to take advantage of the red splash is Ajani Vengeant. I really like this card in a control-type matchup, and possibly even to help against aggro decks. He seems like a clunky 4cmc play, especially with Elspeth in the mix, but the ability to tap down a permanent or be an expensive Lightning Helix is fine. Whether he is cut for another 4cmc slot (Humility comes to mind) will depend on how he fares in testing. The other win conditions are 3-4 Mishra’s Factory / x Decree of Justice, this is pretty general knowledge.
5. Mana Base
Because I’m *not* running Lightning Helix, the necessity to get red mana is a little less, and I think in a format with mana denial, is pretty good decision for the deck overall. That said, I ported gustha’s mana base over:
3 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
3 Plains
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Mishra’s Factory
1 Academy Ruins
23 is fine with SDT, in my opinion. What I haven’t decided is whether I want that number to increase to 24, make some cuts, and add Wasteland as an option. It is definitely strong here, but would require me to cut win conditions (Factory) as a result. Another option, which I’ll talk about in the next section also came to mind.
6. Flex slots + Sideboard
There are a lot of flex options here, and I haven’t had time to consider the possibilities. First of all, if there is a 61st card, in my list it would either be Dust Bowl or the third Wasteland that I add in as a result of cuts for needing them. The other option that I’ve seriously considered to try to battle Reanimator is -1 Plains -1 (61st card) / +1 Tolaria West +1 Karakas (61st card).
In my conversation with gustha, he had 2 open slots as a result of his list. We talked about having Forbid as an option (2-of), or something like Capsize (reanimator) / Dismantling Blow (utility) split between the two slots. I tend to like the latter, having the ability to manipulate your draws with SDT and dig for what you need. I also haven’t experimented with Cunning Wish in a long time, but I feel like the ability to always wish for E tutor --> Humility, Standstill or post-board Counterbalance is always pretty strong.
As for the board, at the moment I’m definitely taking advantage of the red splash with 3x REB out of the board. The card acts like Swords #7-10 again Merfolk and helps deal with counterwars. Also is effective against a very high portion of the format. Of course, the other card I want to include is Counterbalance. The reasoning for this card will fall a lot on the extra card advantage that we need in most of our matchups. Loam and X-Land, for example, come to mind. To have a 2 cmc on top for Counterbalance gives us in virtural card advantage what physical card advantage Life from the Loam gives both these decks. Against Zoo, it partially shuts them out while protecting our win conditions. Against combo, it is an additional way to help seal up the game if we don’t have enough counters to deal with them (I’m not sold on Meddling Mage yet, for reference).
And of course, having access to Crucible of Worlds / an extra Firespout post-board is nice too. Okay, hopefully you guys got an idea of my plans for this deck post-“demotion.” Any thoughts?
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
WTF... One is just a little busy with exams, returns to the forum and finds Landstill thread bumped in the Established decks forum... I mean... Is this a provoking suggestion that we have to re-test again and reconsider something (which obviosuly should be done however) or a joke?
I think landstill is atm underplayed, that's a fact. I am playing different decks as well atm, namely Counterbant and Bant Survival, for just a couple of reasons:
1) I hated going through the swiss with perfect score and then being stopped by ANT (they should ban ant players! lol)
2) if a play a brainless or almost brainless deck (the first goes for Tempo thresh/w, the second for Bant Survival) I don't blame no one if I lose :cool:
3) People all play bad decks (like iona reanimator or ant; the second is ofc not a bad deck in the sense that it's an ignorant deck but only a REALLY bad MU)
4) It's been a busy period.
The second may not be a relevant reason, but:
a) i change list/cards in my list very often, and each requires a period of absorption
b) tuning and metagaming landstill is very stressful and cause me several headaches.
I don't really get the point of people saying that the increasing number of aggro and tempo decks is a problem for landstill: it should be the rejoyce of landstill! (@i-need-extra-turns:jace is just AMAZING in the aggrocontrol MU, if you land it you win, period.) The maindeck of any landstill should be tuned to thrash every aggro and aggrocontrol deck. The possible only exceptions is the merflok MU, which indeed is very playable once you have fueled your deck with light spot removal. Zoo is not that big problem, or at least I've never found it that big problem, plus Firespou + EE + 6/7 MD swords (that's what I play) reset the board every single turnso that we don't take a single damage and stay out of burn range. Postsb counterbalance really helps a lot. If your meta is full with zoo, be sure to have 3-4 lightning helixes alongside with counterbalance. Otherwise, run kitchen finks maindeck, it's great vs. most of the aggro and aggrocontrol decks.
The real problem I see is the INVASION of combo decks. I don't remember who once said that "there's nothing like a full combo meta", maybe Citrus... The reason was that combo decks are skimmed in the initial rouns. Well, I see more and more often metagames of 70 people-tournaments with 25 ant,10 reanimator, and so on. Ofc, combo decks recall counterbalance = aggrocontrol decks -> landstill beats aggrocontrol (should beat, better). But in metagames like that one I described are more a danger than a sureness for a landstill pilot. Here in the northwest italy the meta is becoming aggroish again, with the rising of zoo, canadian, merfolks. If things stay the same, I'd almost certainly play Landstill here.
The real question is: in an unknown meta, will I bring landstill as the deck which has the better chance againt most of the fields?
When answering to this question, I consider:
1) that other people give different answers to this question
2) that combo have a general good Mu against most of the field, speaking in terms of archetype quantity
3) that landstill may have generaly good Mu's against most of the fields speaking in terms of archetype qantity, but not in terms of number per archetype, due that one of the major archetypes now is ANT.
So the reason may be yes, because landstill is the deck I feel the most, and at the samethere's always a not so small chance that my correct choice would've been something differente. Once landstill was able to cover nearly the 100% of a general metagame. Now it's physically impossible, we only have 75/6 cards total. Tinefol in a PM told me that "a rough 90% would do" as well, but I disagree: that might be correct in terms of archetype quantity, but not in terms of number per archetype. (This means that if in a tournamen is present no more than a copy of each archetype, than landstill has a chance; if dominating archetypes are aggroish, landstill is the choice FTW; if dominating archetypes are comboish, play aggrocontrol!)
Speaking of "new directions" of landstill, it's maybe the time to play MD counterbalance? Splashing green?
The direction I took in my lists are evidently bent towards beating aggro and combo based on damage directly from the MD, devoting the sideboard to fight combo and strenghten some other MU. Versatility and elegance owe much to the first versions of Klaus' UWb speedstill (which I still consider the best black splash, and viable atm for it's versatility and the oppotunity to fit KF and Scullers directly from the maindeck for a more "rockish" version), and my UWr list owes much to discussion with Klaus himself, Morbid-, indirectly Citrus and Tinefol. I thinks it's fresh and versatile, though it's not the perfect list. My main concern is to cut all the things that can be possibly dead in any MU, though some ofc are necessary evils (e.g. firespout). One of the main exclusions is humility, which I think goes righ away from the direction I'm taking, resulting dead or uncastable or un-protectable in the 90% of the cases. Here it is (I still want a 3rd firespout slot, and the 2 forbids are metacalls, open slots):
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
3 [ON] Flooded Strand
1 [TSP] Academy Ruins
3 [R] Volcanic Island
4 [R] Tundra
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (2)
3 [UNH] Island
2 [UNH] Plains
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (1)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (3)
1 [AQ] Mishra's Factory (4)
1 [MM] Dust Bowl
3 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
// Spells
2 [SHM] Firespout
3 [M10] Jace Beleren
3 [FD] Engineered Explosives
4 [B] Swords to Plowshares
3 [OD] Standstill
4 [DIS] Spell Snare
4 [AL] Force of Will
1 [ALA] Ajani Vengeant
2 [CFX] Path to Exile
3 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [ALA] Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [FNM] Forbid
1 [SC] Decree of Justice
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 3 [U] Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 [IN] Dismantling Blow
SB: 1 [10E] Crucible of Worlds
SB: 2 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 4 [CS] Counterbalance
(REB helps vs combo and ichorid too, BTW)
To sum up: I don't think landstill is dead, but underplayed and for some right reason. Or maybe I'm just stubborn :wink:
BTW, downgrading landstill to Established deck is silly...
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
gustha
To sum up: I don't think landstill is dead, but underplayed and for some right reason. Or maybe I'm just stubborn :wink:
BTW, downgrading landstill to Established deck is silly...
But that's exactly the point, the DTB/DTWs are determined strictly by T8 placings. It's a measure of the decks that have the highest combination of popularity and success, so you should be prepared to beat them on a regular basis. It really doesn't matter how good Landstill is, it's not getting out of established until more people pick it up again.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
@Reagens:
Canonist dies to the same removal as the mage + H. Recall. Just ask in the ad nauseum thread, its the weakest hate bear.^^
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reagens
Just 2 quick remarks:
What is your opinion about eternal dragon anyway? I still play one and I wasn't intending to cut it, but what makes eternal dragon worth it's spot? Are there perhaps alternatives?
@Dragon.
To filter some cards or to find a land I would prefer additional tops, ponder or a land.
The point is the costs to recur (only upkeep) and to play the dragon are just too high. The dragon only shines when you have no board AND no hand.
As you can see that I play 2 Humility, the really rare cases where it would be an option to cast the dragon I always had a humility in play. It just doesnt work for me.
Felidae wrote:
"E. Dragon might be slow, but he provides you more landdrops under Standstill (he seem's to be not needed in your list, as you run Top to make your landdrops)."
Yes, the dragon provides landdrops under a standstill, but only exactly one - so play a land and save your mana. When you play a standstill it will always immediately be broken by your opponent otherwise you are lucky that your opponent cant play this game and you will win anyways.
@Morbid
Quote:
1.1 Spot Removal. In general, right now I feel that our concensus picks here are actually just 4x Swords. This is pretty much the consensus card in Legacy for creature removal. From what we all have most likely found out through testing, it most likely isn't enough on its own, and some lists are including Path to Exile as an extra 1-2-3 of. It's no surprise that the top 10 is flooded with Merfolk, Zoo, CounterTop, Goblins, etc. Even 43/38/whatever the hell is number is today-Land will feature a variety of Manlands to deal with. We need early answers to their early threats. I think 4 StP / 2 PtE is perfect here.
I also think this is the right way.
Your point 1.2: Well, Im not sure with firespout (vs wrath) because he doesnt kill the goyf.
1.3: Totally agree.
1.4: You wrote: "It is a support spell rather than a true board sweeper."
For me, Humility is rather a board sweeper than a support spell. I mean, the opponennt clock is often reduced from maybe 1-2 turns to 5-10 turns. What else do u want? And Humility works such perfect with your other deck: mishra, decree, elspeth - its like cheating.
@gustha
"I think landstill is atm underplayed, that's a fact."
You are so right.
"jace is just AMAZING in the aggrocontrol MU, if you land it you win, period. "
What is your definition of aggro control? Thresh? Merfolk?
Ugw balance top is a 80% matchup for us, so we dont need jace. Vs tempo thresh its hard to cast and he dies to bolt and fire/ice.
I cant say how he is in the merfolk matchup, but I guess its not so impressive. For me Jace is a bomb in the control mirror.
The fundamental problem with Jace is, that its only sorcery speed and I dont wanna play spells in my turn. So I would always prefer a Fact for example. Whats up with the new Jace???
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
i_need_the_extra_turns
@Reagens:
Canonist dies to the same removal as the mage + H. Recall. Just ask in the ad nauseum thread, its the weakest hate bear.^^
??
Although you have a point, you are wrong and so are the ANT players.
Meddling mage can name a variety of things but does never stop there game plan alone.
Several situations:
meddling mage on tendrils: they combo off as usual but need some kind of bounce (or slaughter pact) before casting tendrils. Easy enough since they have plenty of tutors. Orim's chant and silence are still VERY useful against you.
Meddling mage on ad nauseam: kills the engine, unless they sideboard their doomsday plan. Once again this does not diminish in any way the potency of chant/silence and thus makes you vulnerable.
meddling mage on any other card: does not stop the kill, or the engine and is thus very unreliable.
Canonnist on the other hand does stop any plan they might have. Further more it makes chant/silence irrelevant which makes your counters more then just silence/chant fodder. If they don't have a split second answer to your canonist they risk losing one of their outs to your counters (and more importantly, they lose a turn).
I have tested very extensively against ANT and I can assure you that both against ANT and against belcher, canonnist is the superior answer.
Thanks for the answer on eternal dragon. It makes one think. I'll keep playing mine, since I'm not a fan of top in this deck but at least I'm making an informed decision ;).
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reagens
Meddling mage on ad nauseam: kills the engine, unless they sideboard their doomsday plan. Once again this does not diminish in any way the potency of chant/silence and thus makes you vulnerable.
This would be the weakest call I think due to Meddling Mage being a threat for their lifepoints. This weakens if not nullifies the AN-strategy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Reagens
meddling mage on any other card: does not stop the kill, or the engine and is thus very unreliable.
Bullshit? A Mage naming Chant leaves them with 2 Silence+Bounce/Pact as their answer to our Mage.
Canonist is the best answer to Stormcombo because one counterspell keeps them from going off. (enough artifacts+Tendrils never happens)
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
I think you'll find Meddling Mage to be much better if you allow yourself to be flexible in your naming. There is no set of rules that you can blindly follow and expect him to win you the game alone.
It's always going to depend on what information you have, what else is in your hand, and the board state.
Example: If I'm holding an EE or have one out set to Zero I'm pretty much forcing them to kill me with Tendrils, in said case MM naming Tendrils is solid, they are going to have to take the time to deal with my guy. Time I'm using to bash face (potentially turning off AdN) and sculpt my hand.
Alternatively I've had cases where I've V-cliqued someone, or seen their hand from a Land Grant, and then slammed MM down on their mana sources or only available tutor rather than a kill condition. However, blindly naming something that doesn't turn your MM into an "answer me or lose" (ie: non-kill conditions) seems pretty foolish.
Re: [Deck] UW(x) Landstill
Quote:
Originally Posted by
RogueMTG
Example: If I'm holding an EE or have one out set to Zero I'm pretty much forcing them to kill me with Tendrils, in said case MM naming Tendrils is solid, they are going to have to take the time to deal with my guy. Time I'm using to bash face (potentially turning off AdN) and sculpt my hand.
Except, they don't have to take the time to deal with your guy, because dealing with your guy is part of their combo anyway. The Doomsday pile will have the Slaughter Pact in it, the Ad Nauseum will take a single bounce/removal card to win. All the while they can still Chant you to prevent you from doing anything about it.
Canonist, however, forces them into split second removal because, as said bij Reagens before me, Chant is dead. Canonist does slow them down, because they can never combo off with her in play. The fact that Cannonist is also dealt with with Hurkyll's Recall is irrelevant because it doesn't have split second and can be countered like the rest of the removal. You're right when you say that the absolute number of answers in their deck increases by one or two. But with Canonist in play, they probably still have to tutor for it, so it doesn't really matter.
Not to mention that Canonist will ensure you'll never be caught off guard by an Empty the Warrens.
