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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Alix444
@ Bryant
3. Having 9 mana isn't that crazy. And even conceding that it is, it still accounts for one of the many ways to win around a DRS. So why don't you address another one? That is if you aren't laughing so hard.
4. It doesn't take a rocket surgeon to realize that it's easier to win before your opponent plays magic, but you can't just discount ANT's ability to play around DRS.
5. ANT can spit out goblins too.
The sad thing is that you are so insecure that you instantly get defensive. All I said was you are overstating the impact DRS has against ANT, a deck you don't even play, and you are reacting like I am calling you a mindless idiot.
3. Why would I need to address another way to win around DRS with ANT? It doesn't make any sense.
4. ANT has a very tough time with DRS decks due to the fact they cut off your primary resource while discard disrupts natural storm, it's just a single match-up in which TES is better due to Ad Nauseam and Empty the Warrens which are both stronger here than ANT.
5. Sure, "can" if the list plays it while a bunch don't.
It's not being defensive, you reiterated a point in which I already stated in my article then acted like I hadn't said it to begin with. I've played/tested ANT before, not to mention I've watched matches of ANT vs Shardless at opens, a lot of the time it comes down to the fact that they didn't draw well enough to beat Deathrite Shaman.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
The article said that TES is better positioned than ANT versus Shardless. That is far from saying Shardless is a bad matchup for ANT.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
@Final Fortune, Lemnear and Bahamut mainly:
Looking at the banning list I'm happy to go back to my 12 lands - Gemstones - 3rd duress List . My idea is to full return to this 75 which were for me an staple before the DTT and T.C. Era:
4 Gesmtones
4 Polluted Delta
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Dark Ritual
4 Burning Wish
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
4 Rite of Flame
sideboard
3 Xantid Swarm
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Dark Petition
1 Pyroclasm
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Bayou
1 Duress
1 Void Snare
Basically the unique match up I lost was the 3rd game vs a kind of Super Control Deck with 4 DTT, which made me changing my mind regarding the Manabase.... the rest of pairings were super ok, of course except sometimes the hell of miracles.
So assuming miracles likely will return to RiP, doesn't seem to me much sense to play 2 Extirpate... and the 13 Manabase, saving 1 slot in my side.
My main purpose is to beat somehow miracles as it was from the beginings... and I noticed how bad Xantids are sometimes vs this archetype... Sometimes they have response for this and sometimes drawing them in multiple is just plain bad... this is why I was thinking in use 2 Xantids/1 Autumn's Veil or 1 Xantids/2 Autumn's Veil ..., I also thought in playing 1 Krosan Grip but this seems such a specific card...
Autums is also ok for the RUG match ups which will arise for sure... in that era I evaluated to play a couple of Silence and returning to -1 Fetch-1V-Island = +2CoB...
Stifle is now a thing to have in mind
What do you guys think?
EDIT: First feelings after a very small tourmament and talking with people
I faced a UR which again played full stifles and some by here will again bring their Patriot decks... Also seems thay Miracles will be played by here a lot also it seems the number os stifles has incremented a lot... The sneak/omnitell players seem to prefer again sneak and the BURG boys likely will return to stifle and S.Library...
I dont think i would need any number of pyros by the moment. Still A.D is good for removal purpose....
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I think you shouldnt be running Bayou and Tarn...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
If I were hellbent (intended) on beating miracles I'd probably play 3 empties in my board and play three carpets. And just keep slamming goblins
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
@Final Fortune, Lemnear and Bahamut mainly:
Looking at the banning list I'm happy to go back to my 12 lands - Gemstones - 3rd duress List...
I can basically cut it off here. Everybody expects Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn making a big return in Legacy and you opt to cut down lands again?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I can basically cut it off here. Everybody expects Stifle/Wasteland/Hymn making a big return in Legacy and you opt to cut down lands again?
a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.
b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle
c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.
d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left
e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.
(Briefly: 1st Game was lost by a Stifle to my Gobbos - a bad consequency of the banning of the DTT..., 2nd game was G.P., C.M., bayou, RoF, LED, B.W. EtW, and 3rd Natural Tendrils through S.Pierce and FoW an Wasteland)
f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.
I think I should have specified I wanted to know your opinión in regards of the Split of 1A.Veil/2Xantid - I would prefer to not enter in the Manabase discussion again, sorry - The unique reason I switched to the Fetch manabase was to handle attrition games vs DTT Control decks, now they just don't exist so I have no reason to run a 13 Fetch manabase at all.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.
Bryant is currently testing with MB 14 lands and 6 discard. Just saying
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle
if it was JUST Stifle. Its not. Its about battling Wasteland/Stifle/Daze
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.
After giving away game 1 against a big slice of the metagame? Well, we will see how it actually turns out I guess
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left
We had this discussion a million times. Its about better cantripping and stable mana in grindier games
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.
And sometimes you lose turn two to Elves... TES' statistics in general are bad against Tempo decks and if those return in a bigger number a reaction is due. Cutting down lands is not what I have in mind ;)[quote]
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.
Because you get several fetches stifled IN A SINGLE TURN and neither have Probe/Duress/Therapy to prevent walking right into Stifle. We had the topic of how-to-play-around-wasteland with the Dual/Fetch manabase before. Please, please stop trying to make a point based on needlessly exposing Duals to Wasteland
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I think I should have specified I wanted to know your opinión in regards of the Split of 1A.Veil/2Xantid - I would prefer to not enter in the Manabase discussion again, sorry - The unique reason I switched to the Fetch manabase was to handle attrition games vs DTT Control decks, now they just don't exist so I have no reason to run a 13 Fetch manabase at all.
Well, there was my name followed by the decklist :)
Ok, back to the SB: I dislike Veil for the same reason I dismissed Silence as there are too many Counterbalance, hatebears and resistors in the metagame to consider
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheKingslayer
Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.
Would it be possible to post or message me the exact 75 he played? I'm pretty interested in the list.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Even tho' I think Gold Lands and 3 Chrome Mox are playable, I don't see any reason to play them; you're just trading weakness vs Stifle to weakness vs Wasteland and better cantripping to better mana so unless your Gold Lands are supporting a heavy 4th color out of the SB or your 3rd Chrome Mox is supporting a Diminishing Returns or 3 Empty the Warrens what's the point? I suppose 2xAutumn's Veil vs aggro-control would be one reason, but I don't think it's any better than a Thoughtseize and a Pyroblast. I kind of like cutting Abrupt Decay and Bayou for 2 Empty the Warrens and trying to grind out Miracles that way since it's really hard for them to tell you've boarded into more copies of the card.
Meh, I'm not sure I like 14 Lands, 2 Mox, 6 Discard, I think you'd be better off cutting the Xantid Swarms in the SB and making space for an Island for the aggressive cantrip plays.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Even tho' I think Gold Lands and 3 Chrome Mox are playable, I don't see any reason to play them; you're just trading weakness vs Stifle to weakness vs Wasteland and better cantripping to better mana so unless your Gold Lands are supporting a heavy 4th color out of the SB or your 3rd Chrome Mox is supporting a Diminishing Returns or 3 Empty the Warrens what's the point? I suppose 2xAutumn's Veil vs aggro-control would be one reason, but I don't think it's any better than a Thoughtseize and a Pyroblast. I kind of like cutting Abrupt Decay and Bayou for 2 Empty the Warrens and trying to grind out Miracles that way since it's really hard for them to tell you've boarded into more copies of the card.
Meh, I'm not sure I like 14 Lands, 2 Mox, 6 Discard, I think you'd be better off cutting the Xantid Swarms in the SB and making space for an Island for the aggressive cantrip plays.
If Decay was only for Miracles, I'd actually would like to try cutting green and try the aggro plan with 4 EtW in the 75, but the card is also there to battle chalice & Co
Quote:
Originally Posted by
TheKingslayer
Caleb Scherer and I tested the delver matchup with six discard and once basic island. I felt the basic island handed him five of eight of our preboard games, and god knows how many post board, as I held a stranded wasteland in hand. I ultimately ended up boarding out a couple wastelands, as there was almost never an incentive to drop one into play.It allowed him to more efficiently play around taxing counters (a form of card advantage), and granted an extra turn or two of needed cantripping. I strongly feel it is a worthy inclusion. Respect wasteland, and respect basics.
Isn't Caleb playing ANT? There is quite some difference between needing red mana pre-tutor or not in terms of manabase development between the decks. In TES its not always sufficient to have red mana off a LED for example which forces you to have a total of 3 initial mana sources if you fetch a basic island at any point of the game unlike ANT, which needs two IMS' total despite the Island in many cases.
Doesn't change the fact that TES can play around Wasteland if proper piloted.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Well cutting 6 cards for 2 gives you room to replace Abrupt Decay with other removal, you could run a full set of Chains of Vapour, a couple of Echoing Truth, a Meltdown etc. I kind of think Abrupt Decay is pretty mediocre removal in any match up other than Miracles, and with DTT gone I'm not sure how popular Miracles will be.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Final Fortune
Well cutting 6 cards for 2 gives you room to replace Abrupt Decay with other removal, you could run a full set of Chains of Vapour, a couple of Echoing Truth, a Meltdown etc. I kind of think Abrupt Decay is pretty mediocre removal in any match up other than Miracles, and with DTT gone I'm not sure how popular Miracles will be.
Pre-TC era metagame gives us at least a clue, which was Miracles/Shardless/SneakShow
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Related the EtW plan vs Miracles, this is something I've not tested yet and deserves testing...
I believe that the multiple EtW plan could also be viable vs Chalice.decks instead of using A.D.
The unique problem I see is that I'm not sure how good will be A.N. with 3 EtW main... as said this deserves testing.
@F.Fortune: Right this is all a matter of trading weakness for other weakness... long time ago I decided which weakness I prefer...
When I switched to 3 C.M, 13 fetch manabase, 6 Discard, I played more discard in side, but I just hated to play only 6 discard main, the same occurred with playing only 2 C.M. C.M. has provided so many Turn 1 Wins and so many Post A.N. wins that I dont think I never will switch to 2 C.M. I'm more advocated to play 6 discard thn 2 C.M....
Related about TheKingSlayer said, well I don't think Island belongs to TES, I've played not ANT - TNT instead, and the way I focus Tempo is quite different in one and other match up... EtW is an all Start in here... I agree on Lemnear in here.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Isn't Caleb playing ANT? There is quite some difference between needing red mana pre-tutor or not in terms of manabase development between the decks. In TES its not always sufficient to have red mana off a LED for example which forces you to have a total of 3 initial mana sources if you fetch a basic island at any point of the game unlike ANT, which needs two IMS' total despite the Island in many cases.
Doesn't change the fact that TES can play around Wasteland if proper piloted.
Caleb is testing TES at the moment.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Island for me is a SB card, I use the U/G Fetch over the B/R Fetch because I play the 3rd Underground Sea instead of the Swamp, so I can SB in the most useful basic land vs Wasteland and set up with cantrips.
I'm indifferent regarding the number of Chrome Mox, but I think you're biased towards the Golden Lands. Wastelands are more common than Stifles, Gemstone Mines deplete vs aggro-control/control, Goldlands eliminate the use of Massacre in the SB, the deck has less shuffle effects for cantrips and gives your opponent unneccessary information. Frankly I'm not Bryant, so cutting Swamp and playing the U/G Fetch has been to my benefit because I can Fetchland, go and bluff aggro-control.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
a) I dont know if you are planning in going back to 3rd C.M. but this counts as 0.5 Land which is even indestructible - sure, you play 13 lands 2 C.M.
Bryant is currently testing with MB 14 lands and 6 discard. Just saying
I really don't mind what Bryant is testing - almost sure he plans on testing the mediocre island main..., something I even won't consider..., and 6 Discard? I felt clunky playing 6 discard vs for example Miracles, this is something I regreted whent switched to 13 Lands...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
b) 13 Lands with 8 Fetches is worse than 12 Lands with 4 Fetches vs Stifle
if it was JUST Stifle. Its not. Its about battling Wasteland/Stifle/Daze
I don't know which is your plan vs Tempo, but vs Tempo you NEED to Ponder and B.S., what are you going to do, just sitting on Fetches because you are afraid to beeing destroyed? - They play 4 Wasteland not 8, and while you are sitting on Fetchland they will be pondering to death for Stifle... so when you just Fetch you'll be Stifled... I prefer to play land, then Ponder looking for other land or whatever I need.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
c) I still have Bayou in side which I bring in vs Wastelands.
After giving away game 1 against a big slice of the metagame? Well, we will see how it actually turns out I guess
You mean I give away 1st game by only just playing 1 less land? while I still play 3 C.M. main and less fetches than you? - it doesn't make sense at all for me.
As said, I haven't had ANY issues vs WastealndAndStifle.decks. this at least is my statistic vs tempo.decks, which for me is even favourable the 1st game...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
d) Having 13 Lands and 8 Fetch is exact the same as having 12 Lands and 4 Fetch in regards of Fetching for the desirable Land with a FetchThatShouldBeGemstone - you will have exact the same amount of Lands Left
We had this discussion a million times. Its about better cantripping and stable mana in grindier games
yes, nothing happens if we don't agree. the point I will never understand is: How the hell do you sit on Fetches AND cantrip at the moreless same time? unless your plan is start to cantripping from the 3rd turn.... which doesn't make sense to me if you play TES deck
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
e) I have never ever had issues with the mentioned Deck vs WastelandsAndStifles Decks - an example is the UR Deck I faced today with 4 wastelands, 4 Stifles 4 Daze 2 S.Pierces and 4 Fow which I just won him easily.
And sometimes you lose turn two to Elves... TES statistics in general are bad against Tempo decks and if those return in a bigger number a reaction is due. Cutting down lands is not what I have in mind
All I can guarranty is that I have won more 1st games vs Tempo decks than lost 1st games vs Tempo decks, and this happened from: (70/30 maybe? or even more)
a) Since I started to play EtW main
b) Not less than 3 C.M.
This at least are my statistics with the deck.
The argument about cutting down lands make the deck worse vs tempo is just out of context... Fuck the hell, will you have more win percentage ratios if you play then 16 lands? if the answer is no, then fuck that argument, if the answer is yes, well, you can play then 20 and the match up will be even better!!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
f) I have said a lot of times that for me having a Lonely Gemstone in play is enough to win vs WastelandsAndStifles .deck, I will always prefer to beeing destroyed all my lands and that my unique one left is a Gesmtones - always, I don't know how will you handle StiflesAndWastealnds.decks with a lonely Swamp and several Fetches Stifled and/or V.Island/U.sea wastelanded.
Because you get several fetches stifled IN A SINGLE TURN and neither have Probe/Duress/Therapy to prevent walking right into Stifle. We had the topic of how-to-play-around-wasteland with the Dual/Fetch manabase before. Please, please stop trying to make a point based on needlessly exposing Duals to Wasteland
Well let this be absolutly clear:
Suppose the hand:
LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game
what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.
My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?
Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
if I was to run Island, I think I would re-consider the manabase.
4 Polluted Delta
2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Misty Rainforest / Scalding Tarn
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Swamp
1 Island
SB:
1 Bayou/Tropical (Part of me likes Tropical when running a Badlands - Less hands that can cast cantrips with Bayou. That and Badlands + Tropical can cast everything).
I think I'll test the manabase above.
This is what I'm currently running:
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
2 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Rite of Flame
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Burning Wish
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Void Snare
1 Thoughtseize
1 Past in Flames
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
What is Xantid for right now, let alone 3 copies? OmniTell seems a lot worse without DTT, no?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Miracles and Sneak & Show. Both are real decks.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
I don't know which is your plan vs Tempo, but vs Tempo you NEED to Ponder and B.S., what are you going to do, just sitting on Fetches because you are afraid to beeing destroyed? - They play 4 Wasteland not 8, and while you are sitting on Fetchland they will be pondering to death for Stifle... so when you just Fetch you'll be Stifled... I prefer to play land, then Ponder looking for other land or whatever I need.
You are aware that their pondering and deploying threats gives you windows to crack fetches and do some eot brainstorming followed by more fetchland activations while their mana is tied and they are not able to interact much? Most tempo decks are done with their mana development after the second dual in play, so how much interaction do you think is about to happen in response to your eot shenanigans in turn 4 or so? Let them exhaust their mana during their mainphase and eot for Ponder, Stifle, Delver, SFM, Tarmogoyf, DRS etc. while you untap and combo.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
You mean I give away 1st game by only just playing 1 less land? while I still play 3 C.M. main and less fetches than you? - it doesn't make sense at all for me.
As said, I haven't had ANY issues vs WastealndAndStifle.decks. this at least is my statistic vs tempo.decks, which for me is even favourable the 1st game...
Less lands AND less shuffle effects ... it adds up. I destroyed all tempo/Delver/Blade decks in Lille by slowrolling and turning their tempo components useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
yes, nothing happens if we don't agree. the point I will never understand is: How the hell do you sit on Fetches AND cantrip at the moreless same time? unless your plan is start to cantripping from the 3rd turn.... which doesn't make sense to me if you play TES deck
Start cantripping turn 3 is exactly what I did, given I was able to make consecutive landdrops. Never said anything different. I invalidate their whole tempo gameplan with that ANT-like early game and it has absolutely nothing to do with playing TES. Just because I pick a deck like TES, I don't have to play it like an idiot piloting Belcher in any possible situation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
The argument about cutting down lands make the deck worse vs tempo is just out of context... Fuck the hell, will you have more win percentage ratios if you play then 16 lands? if the answer is no, then fuck that argument, if the answer is yes, well, you can play then 20 and the match up will be even better!!!!
You simply look at statistics for that and look what ANT does better against tempo, which is invalidating the impact of Wasteland/Stifle/Daze by more lands and basics. We try to mimic these advantages in these matchups without giving up our potentially fast starts in matchups that demand it. It should be clear that too many lands may mess too much with Infernal Tutor, so finding a balance between fast hellbent and stability against tempo decks is the trick which fetchlands support as you can slightly manipulate the odds of drawing more lands if you need to be quick and wasteland is not your problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Well let this be absolutly clear:
Suppose the hand:
LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game
what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.
My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?
Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.
A) game 1 you either drop fetch, petal, BS off petal, fetch (likely eot) and win if your opponent kept an aggressive hand or you play "land, go" and wait until your opponent moves first
B) no. There is no need to Ponder for discard unless your opponent holds FoW. You can play around stifle/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland without wasting a card and putting your opponent into the driver seat with exposing a dual for an early Ponder.
C) see above. Brainstorm off petal, fetch the crap away. Gemstone can't do that, but quite the opposite: Brainstorm is crap if you have a Gemstone instead of a Fetch in that situation. You have a lot less options as sitting it out is not even viable. With Gemstone you HAVE to walk right into potential protection in any case.
D) lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Well let this be absolutly clear:
Suppose the hand:
LED, D.R., Ponder, Fetch, I.T., B.S., L.P. - not a bad hand right? but this is scaring vs WastelandAndStifle.deck
and you face a WastelandAndStifle.deck, and you know it is a WastelandAndStifle.deck and they have no Hymns and it is the 1st game
what the hell are you going to do in here, if they start by just playing fetch.
My opinions on this:
a) there is a great percentage they have: ( daze OR stifle OR FoW OR wasteland OR S.Pierce), therefore, trying to comboing in the first turn is nonsense. Right?
b) you need to fire off ponder because you need to find duress at its mínimum. the question is when?, there is a near 40% that with this hand you will never ever fire off Ponder...
c) in this scenario, what would you prefer: Gemstone or that fetch? for me this is clear: Gemstone. so that I will land L.P., then Gemstone then ponder, the chances they play S.Pierce are more slower than playing other of the cards I mentioned in a).
d) will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?
Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.
A) game 1 you either drop fetch, petal, BS off petal, fetch (likely eot) and win if your opponent kept an aggressive hand or you play "land, go" and wait until your opponent moves first
B) no. There is no need to Ponder for discard unless your opponent holds FoW. You can play around stifle/Daze/Pierce/Wasteland without wasting a card and putting your opponent into the driver seat with exposing a dual for an early Ponder.
C) see above. Brainstorm off petal, fetch the crap away. Gemstone can't do that, but quite the opposite: Brainstorm is crap if you have a Gemstone instead of a Fetch in that situation. You have a lot less options as sitting it out is not even viable. With Gemstone you HAVE to walk right into potential protection in any case.
D) lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?
regarding a), well if you play B.S. with Petal and they have daze and stifle you are dead, IF they have FoW plus Stifle and wasteland the Opp. can evaluate to invest his FoW to lock you.
regarding b) Agree, there is no need to play ponder in the first turn, however sitting on fetch gets up the odds for the opp. to find the stifle which will lock you anyway, sure this also gets up the odds to find you another land, but this land can also be a dual which will be destroyed.
regarding c) If instead Fetch you have gemstone you will not play B.S., this is absurd, instead Gemstone to ponder with a L.P. to avoid daze, sure, they can have Pierce, but as said, Pierce is the less common card among Daze, Wasteland, FoW and Stifle.
regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
regarding a), well if you play B.S. with Petal and they have daze and stifle you are dead, IF they have FoW plus Stifle and wasteland the Opp. can evaluate to invest his FoW to lock you.
You come up with a scenario of me trying to beat Stifle+FoW+Wasteland+Pitch with a certain hand to have a point? For real?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
regarding b) Agree, there is no need to play ponder in the first turn, however sitting on fetch gets up the odds for the opp. to find the stifle which will lock you anyway, sure this also gets up the odds to find you another land, but this land can also be a dual which will be destroyed.
That would still opens up options to Brainstorm + shuffle in response to a possible Wasteland or use the fetch as Stifle-bait like I mentioned before to combo. You would have a dual + Petal + fetch here which Beats Stifle + Daze or Spell Pierce while never giving a window to use Wasteland. That's what it's all about
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
regarding c) If instead Fetch you have gemstone you will not play B.S., this is absurd, instead Gemstone to ponder with a L.P. to avoid daze, sure, they can have Pierce, but as said, Pierce is the less common card among Daze, Wasteland, FoW and Stifle.
And you Ponder for the mentioned discard Spell or a second land here? What do you do if you get hit by Wasteland after your Ponder? What if the Ponder was a different card instead? What if you are not even up against Tempo with that starting grip? Gemstone leaves you with a lot less options to play this hand, which i want to Highlight
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.
You can't argue against Pierce as a foil to your plan first and throw it now as counterargument into my face in the same post. There is no Problem with them having Daze or FoW or Pierce as you have the option to NOT go all-in and you can actually adjust with the Brainstorm + fetch according to what you want to do. You can BS into Probe or discard, put back the unnecessary Ponder and pass the turn w/o fetching before your opponents eot or decide to fetch after the B s and Ponder immediately. You have soooo many options to play this hand simply because there is a Fetchland instead of a Gemstone.
Are you arguing here that the opponent pondered into Stifle while already having FoW + Pitch or Daze in hand? Is this again the topic of "Fetches are bad as you can't beat 2+ pieces of disruption with a single land!"
Point is: Gemstone dictates how to play this hand while a fetch does not. I mean, I could return the favor and ask how you would want to beat Pierce/Wasteland/Daze with your Gemstone mine, but I would never do.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I haven't played TES as much as most of you, but I'm an avid player of ANT. Even though the decks differ quite a bit my personal train of though is that you shouldn't really play too much on mines and rather have fetches + duals unless absolutely necessary to find your colours (i.e. you play 5c, 4c is fully doable with fetches + duals).
Also shoutout @Lemnear!
Thank you for the probes man! They just arrived and will be of great help making the deck German Foil!
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!
For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Tvox
I haven't played TES as much as most of you, but I'm an avid player of ANT. Even though the decks differ quite a bit my personal train of though is that you shouldn't really play too much on mines and rather have fetches + duals unless absolutely necessary to find your colours (i.e. you play 5c, 4c is fully doable with fetches + duals).
Also shoutout @Lemnear!
Thank you for the probes man! They just arrived and will be of great help making the deck German Foil!
Oliver! Wasn't aware that you are on TheSource. You should have PM'd me and I would have sent a Rad package instead of that loveless letter I actually threw in the mailbox. Something along Gold-signed perfect fits or german Dread of Nights or the like for example. If you need something lemme know :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bjholmes3
Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!
For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.
Interresting point to look at it. I agree that never players often force to combo in the first three turns against Tempo for essentially no reason as many of the problems in this matchup like Daze or Wasteland invalidate themselves over time naturally. In most game 1s against Tempo it does not matter if EtW is cast turn 1 or turn 4 as they lose to it near anyways.
To summarize: people confuse the Gameplan for tempo with the one for Combo
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
bjholmes3
Darn it Bryant, don't you steal one of our all-star ANT players!
For reals though, Peli, you need to play against tempo more, you're pretty off base on a lot of the points you so passionately proclaim. The biggest mistake I see newer storm players make is that they feel really rushed, like they MUST go off or discard or cantrip or all is lost. Pretty sure Delver doesn't have 20 power and tap for free FoW, you can take time to prepare.
I am not sure if to say thanks for the advise, but I have played vs Tempo with Storm from the beggining of the existence of RUG..., maybe when this archetype played that 1/1 which added G to the mana pool and with 3shold is a 4/4 - don't remember its name...
I go off with TES exactly when I need to. I just love the ability of TES of having the possibility of going off when there is a need/chance, which doesn't mean I use TES as Belcher...
The unique Storm Deck I have not tested and didnt get Top 8 in any torunament is Candelabra SpiralTides.... the rest I got any Top 8. (ANT-TNT - I hate the plain ANT is, DDFT, TES, Solidarity - those wonderful years...)
My mind is mathematical as hell, you can see the above posts Lemnear vs Me. I see the contradictions Lemnears on d):
P: will you play Fetch and pass the turn?, by doing this you are saying to the opp.: Great! you can pondering the next turn or B.S. to find the StifleTo MyFetch! THIS is what you are going to do?
Well, I am interested in hearing your opinions regarding THIS specific scenario. pleeeaseee.
L: lets stick with this scenario/hand and the opponent is casting Ponder and finds Stifle: I untap, draw an unknown card (which can be another manasource), I try to fetch, my opponent Stifles it, you drop Petal, LED, Ritual, Infernal, EtW, make 12 Goblins and win. Where is the problem?
P: regarding d)EXACT: the problem is that by doing this you will loose not only to FoW, Daze and Pierce also counts!, you have less than 50% to win this way. it is nonsense to make this play, Even the Opp. has played a Ponder... you are completely wrong in here my friend because you are playing in d) Non Sense Belcher Mode.
L: You can't argue against Pierce as a foil to your plan first and throw it now as counterargument into my face in the same post. There is no Problem with them having Daze or FoW or Pierce as you have the option to NOT go all-in and you can actually adjust with the Brainstorm + fetch according to what you want to do. You can BS into Probe or discard, put back the unnecessary Ponder and pass the turn w/o fetching before your opponents eot or decide to fetch after the B s and Ponder immediately. You have soooo many options to play this hand simply because there is a Fetchland instead of a Gemstone.
Are you arguing here that the opponent pondered into Stifle while already having FoW + Pitch or Daze in hand? Is this again the topic of "Fetches are bad as you can't beat 2+ pieces of disruption with a single land!"
Point is: Gemstone dictates how to play this hand while a fetch does not. I mean, I could return the favor and ask how you would want to beat Pierce/Wasteland/Daze with your Gemstone mine, but I would never do.
Me now: Regarding to your point:
a) you CAN choose to not to play Gemstone - why? to not beeing destroyed by wasteland. Simple. I've done this so many times...
b) you CAN NOT choose the opp. to not to have Stifle in hand.
c) I argue that in this scenario: there are more than 50% Opp. having Fow OR Daze , and IF Opp. stifles you, it is nonsense as you stated to do such play.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Me now: Regarding to your point:
a) you CAN choose to not to play Gemstone - why? to not beeing destroyed by wasteland. Simple. I've done this so many times...
b) you CAN NOT choose the opp. to not to have Stifle in hand.
c) I argue that in this scenario: there are more than 50% Opp. having Fow OR Daze , and IF Opp. stifles you, it is nonsense as you stated to do such play.
A) yeah, you can draw your 8th card, drop your Petal and pass, but its a wasted turn as you do not get closer to playing around Daze/Pierce at all. It gets really awkward if you draw more Gemstones/Duals afterwards for obvious reasons
B) who said anything about that? I said fetches leave you the option to work around certain card combinations your opponent can hold, while you point to a combination of 3+(!!!!) specific disruption spells to discredit my general claim. It feels like someone who comes up with "TES is a crap deck, because you can't beat T1 SolLand, Chalice @ 0, Chalice @ 1!". Your Gemstone scenario gets mauled by a combination of Wasteland/Pierce/Daze as well, so whats the actual point you are trying to make? Mine is that if I run more (fetch)lands, I can work around Daze/Pierce/wasteland more reliable than with less lands or Gemstones while also having more options to react to certain scearios (drawing Probe, early pressure, etc)
C) yeah, thats why I was just talking about options. We didn't even take the card drawn in your turns drawstep and the three revealed by brainstorm into account for further analysis: if you draw another IMS in those 4 cards, you can play around Daze in addition to the Stifle. I however suspect, you will point me to an additional FoW next.
"you can't beat FoW+Pitch+Daze+Stifle by turn two so Fetchlands are bad" ... "Beating Stifle+Daze by turn two is not enough to give Fetchlands credit" ... etc.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Oliver! Wasn't aware that you are on TheSource. You should have PM'd me and I would have sent a Rad package instead of that loveless letter I actually threw in the mailbox. Something along Gold-signed perfect fits or german Dread of Nights or the like for example. If you need something lemme know :)
I'll have to take you up on that in a couple of months when I can justify purchasing the xantid and some of the vintage cards you're selling ;)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.
Please go on ignoring me... I do this, do this also... I contained a lot when you asked for what? Donations by your damaged B.S ? This is likely one of the most stupids things I ve heard in my life...You even by doing this changed the concept of donation....The main issue is that your brain is not big enough to offense me...
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Pelikanudo
Please go on ignoring me... I do this, do this also... I contained a lot when you asked for what? Donations by your damaged B.S ? This is likely one of the most stupids things I ve heard in my life...You even by doing this changed the concept of donation....The main issue is that your brain is not big enough to offense me...
Yeah Bryant Cook stop offense him. :)
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Man, the Storm camp is much more interesting to observe than the others.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
Why do people continue to engage with the troll? I stopped almost two years ago and it feels great. Some people can't be saved, let them drown.
Honestly, I get annoyed reading Pelikanudo's broken English too, but this is just really offensive to him. He is very obviously trying to have serious discussion. By saying this you're just coming across as saying that he's an idiot for even suggesting something different than your own list. I don't like running Gemstone Mines either, but I can see the benefit of having them against Stifle decks in some scenario's.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bahamuth
Honestly, I get annoyed reading Pelikanudo's broken English too, but this is just really offensive to him. He is very obviously trying to have serious discussion. By saying this you're just coming across as saying that he's an idiot for even suggesting something different than your own list. I don't like running Gemstone Mines either, but I can see the benefit of having them against Stifle decks in some scenario's.
You're looking at this in a vacuum to this specific instance. Now take a look back at the last 4 years of his posts. Up until six months ago he was preaching that Silence and Diminishing Returns were still ideal, he's stuck in the past while the rest of us are just trying to evolve the deck. He continually asks questions, when people try to explain things to him, he just says why the way he's doing things is better - if he honestly thinks this way, why bother asking? He's unwilling to try things other people recommend or listen to different thought philosophies.
As for his broken English, I feel the guy doesn't even try. Especially considering he tries to abbreviate every single god-damn thing he can.
As for offending him, good. He deserves everything he gets.
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Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
You're looking at this in a vacuum to this specific instance. Now take a look back at the last 4 years of his posts. Up until six months ago he was preaching that Silence and Diminishing Returns were still ideal,
Yes, I would still play D.R. IF Dark Petiton didn't exist, now I play 1 Autums Veil in the Side - I would prefer to play 1 silence instead.
I've always preferred to play Therapies and Duress instead of Silence main - The problem was that it seemed you weren't playing TES if you didn't play Suilence main... My meta was so different... and I 've always wanted such a change...
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
he's stuck in the past while the rest of us are just trying to evolve the deck. He continually asks questions, when people try to explain things to him, he just says why the way he's doing things is better - if he honestly thinks this way, why bother asking? He's unwilling to try things other people recommend or listen to different thought philosophies.
long time ago I dont ask questions - I ask for opinions, this is a difference.
The unique thing that got better the deck were:
Inclusions of C.Therapies and G.P. and EtW - all of these changes were idea from mainly Bahamut. Related to EtW, I recognize, I was very skeptical about this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
As for his broken English, I feel the guy doesn't even try. Especially considering he tries to abbreviate every single god-damn thing he can.
It is ok.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Bryant Cook
As for offending him, good. He deserves everything he gets.
As said, you didn't offense me!
Apart, Bahamut, please could you share your last TES list, thanks
