Nvm, Echelon crushed our wildest dreams
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Nvm, Echelon crushed our wildest dreams
That is true!Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
No point playing Worldspine when you could play Emrakul. It's not like the deck plays Natural Order. If you need to finish people off after swinging for 15, and your opponent doesn't have Path, just get Bellower into Emrakul and swing for 21.Quote:
Originally Posted by rubblekill
Flayer of the Hatebound is pretty good, since he dies to Sneak and Undying's for five, but I don't think he's deadly enough. You'd need to run something else as well. I could see it as a combo with another creature, but at that point you might as well just play Mikaeus the Unhallowed and Triskelion.
- Sneak Bellower, Empath, Mikaeus.
- Respond to bellower trigger in end step by Sneaking Mikaeus.
- Bellower returns from Undying, get Empath, get Triskelion.
- Sneak Triskelion.
- Win.
You're spending two slots on pretty terrible creatures on their own, though, and you need RRR and Sneak Attack up.
If you want to get around Ensnaring Bridge, your best bet is probably a maindeck Reclamation Sage to fetch with Bellower.
And Abrupt Decay. And Pernicious Deed. And (GSZ into) Eternal Witness w/ any of those. Bridge shouldn't be much of a concern.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Wow! Thanks guys for the support. It's a fact that Echelon can seems a bit like an angry bitch at first read and that you have to read the thread for a bit to know that he's not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
I think is deeply a good hearted one and just wants "to teach" people good reflexes about the deck in the hard way.
But Echelon, I think you was a bit too quick this time. When you read the list, you can see that Bellower took the slot of Grieselbrand. Grieslbrand is not green and I don't think that it's the first reason of removing him from the list. Idem for Emrakul vs worldspine wurm...
Arianrhod was stating:
I was reacting to the chain with sneak: zenith for empath>bellower>empath>Emrakul. So 4 creature slots, needs 7 mana with at least 1 green and 3 red.Quote:
This is where I'm at currently. Final tuning is in progress now. I know I want Sylvan in the deck somewhere, but it's currently occupying the slot of Empath #2, which might be incorrect with Bellower. It could be that replacing a Top with Sylvan is more correct. This list is sacrificing the midrange / beatdown plan a bit, but it's become a much more effective control/combo deck, which is historically a better place to be in general. Feels very strong and I like where it's positioned going into Eternal Weekend and the weeks following.
Which can be : zenith for empath>Rune-scared>Emrakul. So 3 creature slots, needs 6 mana, 1 green, two red only.
Rune-scared demon over Grisou was already pointed a few pages ago by someone else. So I was wondering if Arian gave it a try or didn't saw it, or think is a total shit :D
So the true question I should have ask, enlightened by further posts on the thread is more Primeval vs Bellower. Two 6 mana zenitable slots. Two differents plan while tutoring.
Edit: some people would like to add a second bellower, some would like to add a second or third empath. Rune-scared is a bit both in one. So you gain one slot with it.
First off: Thank you for the kind words. Whether your reasoning is right or not (which I'll get to in a bit), my apologies for being a dick.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
Secondly: Actually, the line of GSZ for Empath -> Bellower into Empath -> Emrakul also costs 6, w/ 1 green and 2 red. The Bellower trigger immediately dumps Empath #2 on the battlefield, without any extra costs. It just needs that extra Empath to function. That being as it may, your post shows that you've thought about it (which is the response I wanted to trigger). Share your thoughts, explain why you make a certain suggestion (dammit, lol), that's all I'm trying to get people to do. Detailed, well thought out arguments are much better food for thought and discussion than "Howsabout this card?" (and don't sollicit dickery, if anyone's ever noticed that). I guess it's to the Sneak Fit pilots to find out if it's better to have Bellower's added utility (read: it allows you to get a clock and an answer with a single GSZ) or if the one card the Demon saves you during the combo is worth it.
Woodland Bellower puts the creature it fetches straight onto the battlefield, so it uses the same mana as Rune-Scarred Demon does.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
IMO Bellower does basically everything RSD does (since it gets you Emrakul, removal or more bodies) except finding Sneak Attack. I don't think searching up Sneak is that relevant when you've already got 7+ mana available. Being Zenithable isn't that important for our big creatures because we have Bellower/Empath to find them instead - if we lose Bellowers for other fatties, the problem of not being Zenithable comes up more again.
I really like the idea of Distended Mindbender. It means that your Empaths are not only combo kill enablers, but they gain the ability to disrupt the opponent in case you don't have a Sneak on the field. T3 Empath T4 Mindbender sounds very viable and could help clinch a win if you have already done some light disruption in turns 1-2 with Therapy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Since the consensus seems to be leaning towards Bellower in place of Griselbrand, there really isn't a need to try to get to 8 mana for Grisel - that is further argument that Primeval Titan could be removed. Still unsure about Volrath's Stronghold...that is still a very strong land in this deck even without PrimeTime.
Primeval's purpose is to be the best bomb on an empty board state without Sneak. It "draws" 4 cards between cip+swing (and in my experience it frequently gets to swing when it does come down). The only two other bombs that compete with this effect are Griselbrand himself (who costs 8 including an unwieldy as hell BBBB) and Combustible Gearhulk (who may not draw you any cards and opens you to getting blown out by Wear/Tear). I can definitely get behind wishing we had a better option, but for now at least, he's all we've really got to fulfill that role. I'd much rather have a Consecrated Sphinx or something of that ilk, but, c'est le vie.
This could be really bad, but did you consider Tinder Wall? If you already have a threat in hand, Bellower into Tinder Wall makes RR right away for a double sneak activation. It's also good for accelerating into casting a Sneak Attack since you can go
T1 Land, Tinder Wall
T2 Land, Sneak Attack
I don't dislike the idea, but I do think it needs tested. I worry about the BB in the cost since we've moved on to Groves and the mana base has tilted away from black a bit. Mindbender gives Empaths something to do when drawn early in the game // used "fairly."Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
Volrath's is very good in the deck and if we replace Volraths (independent decision of Primeval, I think we want Volrath's even if we do cut Prime Time), we need to really pay close attention to our Miracles matchup. Volrath's, especially in conjunction with Phyrexian Tower, has been instrumental in beating Miracles in my experience. They just can't deal with it in any reasonably effective manner.
I don't hate it as much as I feel like I probably should, if that's any indication?Quote:
Originally Posted by Brael
I'd put it on the pile of ideas for super combo Sneak version, same with Orcish Lumberjack. I don't think the idea is necessarily bad per se, but I do think that it's not where I, at least, want to be looking.
Edit: I'm almost thinking like this:
4 Vet
4 Lumberjack
2 Tinder Wall
2 Empath
1 E.Wit
1 Bellower
1 Inferno
1 Red Gearhulk
1 Emrakul
4 Sneak
4 Breach
4 Therapy
4 Zenith
4 Living Wish
2 Chandra ToD
22 lands
sb:
1 Emrakul
14 other things for living wish // actual sideboard
I think Bellower fills that slot better. Fetching an Inferno Titan, a Mindbender, another Bellower or an Eternal Witness feels like a perfectly serviceable drop.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
If you're facing down an empty board on both sides against something like Miracles, Grixis or BUG, I don't think dropping Bellower is any worse than Primeval Titan. Even if your opponent have answers that work better against Bellower's 5 toughness (Dismember, Gurmag Angler) at the end of the day you can still trade off and still have an Inferno Titan to slam afterwards.
Edit: @Arianrhod - that Sneak/Breach list - If you're going that all-in, Summoner's Pact is probably worth it. Fetching Bellower into lethal is pretty strong.
I was about to make the same statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arianrhod
More than 70 % of my wins against Miracles with Sneak Fit were because they could not beat Primeval + Twin.
The other 30 % were because of an early resolved Sneak into a quick Kukul.
Still, the games could be very very long. Especially against Predict Miracle versions.
Entirely possible RE@All-in. It's not really my kind of thing at all, but I acknowledge that it has potential and if people who are not me want to work on it, I figured I'd toss out a rough idea of a shell for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Bellower into Mindbender does seem like it could be pretty dirty, I agree. My biggest hang-up is, as I mentioned, Miracles. Primeval+Towers has overperformed there by a lot. Mindbender is still going to be fine there, I think, because of being a cast trigger, but I don't think it's nearly as sure of a kill as assembling the Towers is.
I also don't think that hardcasting Emrakul should be overlooked as a plan. I've won three separate games because of hardcasting Emrakul, and Primeval helped that a lot. Yes, three games out of however many isn't actually THAT often, certainly, but it's a tool that I like having in the belt.
I guess it depends a lot on what Miracles lists you're up against.
Primeval Titan:
+ If you get to untap with Towers, you can grind them to death
+ Trample
- If he gets removed before you untap, he doesn't get much done
- Doesn't present a particularly fast clock
- Resistant to removal / sweepers after first turn
Bellower:
+ Faster potential clock
+ Still finds a second threat even if removed immediately
- Doesn't grind as well (finite resources, no Towers combo for longevity)
- Easy to chump if they make tokens
- Playing out your second threat risks Terminus
The Miracles decks around me seem to be low on Mentors and have quite a lot of Entreats, which leads me to want a fast clock at the expense of grinding power, since a large percentage of the time I can't afford to durdle without hitting 'EOT six angels, kill you' before I can kill them.
Mindbender would be great in other formats. It can miss in Legacy, especially on turn 3-4 when we would ideally cast it. It also doesn't interact with Sneak Attack at all.
For reference, I greatly dislike Primeval Titan. I am fully aware it allows us to beat Miracles. That being said, there are better options if Miracles wasn't the most played deck. But that's not a thing that can be contested at the moment because of Miracles. As I said before, our creatures need to be the most efficient and highest quality since we have so few creatures to work with. I'm not sure anything else will allow that.
I think it should be a sideboard option. Against Miracles it'll be a double hit unless they have very few cards in hand, and against Storm and Show and Tell you can reasonably expect to hit twice as well. If you only get one hit, it's not necessarily the end of the world - you spent one card (Empath) and got a Thoughtseize (that exiles) and a 5/5 threat, which is pretty much exactly what you want out of a single card against a combo deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
Yes, my bad about bellower, I disregarded the fact it put the creature into play
I disagree, with a sneak, he cost BB regardless of which other creature you sneaked previously.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
But is that better than fetching Emrakul or a Titan if you already have Sneak Attack out? Can the cards in hand realistically stop you? At the point where we have Sneak Attack, throwing monsters at our opponent til they die seems more plausible than removing two cards with a 5/5 in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulysse95
If people want to test it and find out if it works, that's a fine plan. My intuition says it's not what we need. Specifically, I feel the card is at its best when we are already winning.
If we already have Sneak, Mindbender isn't relevant because we already probably win the game. Anything else we put in that slot would be the exact same, unless it finds us Emrakul somehow. If we don't have an immediate Emrakul, we can still use Mindbender to turn whatever we have lying around (like a random sneaked Thragtusk or Inferno Titan) into a 5/5 after combat, which is a nice benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zirath
If we don't have Sneak, though, it's good to have an Empath target that costs less than six mana, and that interacts with fast combo decks and Miracles.
It's only less than 6 if we have Empath in play. If you play Empath and fetch up Mindbender, isn't likely the Empath will be removed asap or the opponent will try to play around it? We need to have 7 mana in a single turn to play out both Empath and Mindbender. By this logic, we should be looking at Gurmag Angler as well, which doesn't interact with combo decks at all, or Mournwhelk, which doesn't require Empath surviving. Granted Mournwhelk is a horrible card, so take that opinion as me being facetious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Let me ask this another way, what card are you removing to fit Mindbender in from the sideboard?
@Kevin, how is Chandra, ToD?
No idea, never touched her. I'm guessing she's good in a world with Tinder Wall and Lumberjack needing something else red and dumb to power out early, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bobmans
Lumberjack, lolz...
Well i just ordered 1 Chandra to try (and stick into edh if it fails) but i sooo much wanna play that card. I was lucky to find a Japanese signed copy this soon already after release.
Just played week 2 of my league. Ended up scrubbing out due to some real bad mana screw. Pretty annoying considering my build is made specifically to combat that, but I've been running pretty hot in all formats lately so the opposite is inevitable at some point (and it probably evens out with my 4-0 Modern finish tonight).
Anyways, I hit Monastery Mentor in every game, and in some I even had enough mana to play it. What I figured out is that while the cost says 2W it's not actually a 3 drop for the purposes of your curve. It's better to treat it as a 5, or atleast a 4. Tracker suffers from this too in order to get value, but to a lesser extent. I still like the Mentor/Top combo but I think I need more mana sources to make it work. It's clunky enough that it requires a lot of mana. I think in SB games where I plan to use it all my mana dorks will be coming in from now on.
Mentor is by far the fastest clock in my list, faster than Sigarda even. It's almost always a 1 or 2 turn clock, it's just a little more of a build around than I initially thought. It's the same clock speed as Grave Titan but only needs half as much mana on board.
Except Miracles fucks with you via the top of their library, so it doesn't quite help there. As for fast combo decks - you're dead by the time you might be able to pull it off. It's basically taking a tank to a dragstrip to race vs. a funnycar. In that case you're even lucky if you manage to GSZ for a Gaddock Teeg (if you were to run one ofcourse), let alone first GSZ for Empath, then feed Empath to Mindbender (which means you won't be interacting with a Storm pilot for a turn around turn 3/4. Do you really want to try and dodge that bullet?).Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Seems like a very bad plan.
Teeg is irrelevant, since we're in Jund so we can't play him. If we could, Mindbender would be less interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
As is, the point I'm making is that against a combo deck, Empaths and Zeniths are pretty dead. The only thing we can really do with them is apply pressure, and even there the clock isn't particularly fast (especially in this version, where our threats are expensive). By adding Mindbender, we have a secondary threat to use which both applies pressure and actually interacts. I'm not saying we should replace one of our primary disruption cards (Thoughtseize, Slaughter Games, Surgical) but a slot which upgrades Zenith/Empath from "garbage" to "slow but powerful" in multiple matchups is probably not as terrible a choice as you're implying. I've found that a lot of the time, we play early disruption against combo decks which prevents them from going off quickly, but then our threats aren't fast enough and they rebuild their hand into going off again around turn five while we make dorky green monsters.
Against Miracles, just because they can play in topdeck mode doesn't mean they want to. They have very few actual CA tools which means they often can't answer more than a single threat each turn in topdeck mode.
- If they are topdecking, we can always just fetch a different threat with empath.
- If we happen to draw it in that situation, we get a 5/5 which can't be Counterbalanced, which is not great but as a worst-case scenario it's still a threat they have to spend a card to answer.
- If we fetch it with Empath and they kill him before we can Emerge, that's great. They've spent a whole removal spell on a Fierce Empath, and we can still just hardcast Mindbender in a couple turns' time, or feed a different creature to it if needed. They've still 2-for-1ed themselves, and the card we've gained is a 3-for-1 when we cast it.
Teeg in relation to speed is plenty relevant, which is what the post was about. If GSZ > Teeg, in the builds where it's played, is too slow, how can GSZ > Empath, Mindbender be considered fast enough? Empath costs 1 more and after that you also have to cast the Mindbender.
I get your point about "well, if we finally do get there", but you're playing a build that drops Emrakul for funsies. Replace Mindbender w/ a Diabolic Intent and just grab Sneak attack w/ that.
I don't think Zenith - Teeg is too slow, generally. It's not good enough as a primary game plan, but it's just fine as a followup after your initial disruption. The problem with Teeg, though, is that if they draw an answer before they die (which takes a while because he's a 2/2) then his disruption stops. If they draw an answer to Mindbender, that stops the bleeding but doesn't actually get back the cards he exiles.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Intent is not what we want. It doesn't do shit without another creature on the board and a combo piece in hand already. The best case scenario is Empath - Emrakul - Intent Empath - Sneak Attack, right? Well, that takes up two turns of doing nothing, since we won't have the mana to cast Intent and Sneak in the same turn early in a game. If you think we won't live long enough to resolve Mindbender, how on earth do you expect to survive waiting another turn on top of that to make Emrakul? He kills them when he comes in, yes, but Mindbender already puts them in a position they are unlikely to be able to recover from and gives them a four turn clock.
Mindbender turns Zenith/Empath into a one card threat+disruption. That's really a big deal in a deck which otherwise needs two or more cards to get anything threatening done beyond just making a couple big green creatures.
Still doesn't take away you don't interact w/ your Storm opponent when their fundamental turn is coming up...Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
If you happen to survive, sure, you're in a good place. Odds are you'll be dead though. That's the choice you make.
The point I'm making is that you don't have any choice there. Fetching Mindbender with Empath/Zenith is relevant because if you aren't playing Mindbender, you don't have any other relevant targets that do something before next turn. It upgrades those cards from "do nothing" to "next turn, do something very relevant"- not as good as "do something relevant this turn" but we take what we can get. If there's a target you can fetch up with Green Sun's Zenith and Fierce Empath that disrupts a combo player on that turn, go ahead and let me know, but as far as I'm aware there's no options there, unless you want to splash white in your heavy three-colour deck which plays Grove and six basics so you can play Teeg, who also turns off your primary wincon and also doesn't make Empath relevant, only GSZ.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Regarding tech against combo decks, has anyone had any success with Lost Legacy? Think it was mentioned when it was previewed for Kaladesh. Even in our decks that have access to red for Slaughter Games, it does come down a full turn sooner. I imagine very less optimal against Miracles due to being able to be countered.
Edit: Shoot, I think I missed some talk about it a few pages back. I'll go re-read.
To put it simply:Quote:
Originally Posted by square_two
If you're not in red, you can now play Lost Legacy rather than splashing, which is nice.
If you're in red, Slaughter Games is probably better. Being uncounterable is a big deal.
Discard and Extraction effects are still strong competition for the same sideboard slots.
This has fallen heavily into the realm of theorycraft. You have to actually play with the card and prove it's good at this point. Most of these situations are close to idealized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
The idea that it's a clock isn't really true. It's only a 5/5. Against Miracles and almost any combo deck, their life total only matters when they would die. We have no additional reach to end the game.
You sidebord in Lost Legacy or Slaughter Games aginst combo. Then I would rather cast it a turn eariler then have uncounterable for one more mana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Well yes, that's the point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ganfar
However, with regards to the 3 vs 4 mana difference, we have a lot of hands which provide us with 4+ mana on turn three. However we only have a small number of hands which provide us with 3+ mana on turn two:
- Vet + Therapy
- Vet + Tower
- DRS
Vet + Therapy is the most common of these - however it's also the one where being able to cast Lost Legacy matters least. We've already Therapied the opponent twice - they are not going to untap and kill us immediately. Waiting a turn to SG instead isn't actually an issue.
Vet + Tower is uncommon, and we could cast SG anyway.
DRS is often a 1-of. If you're playing a list with lots of copies of DRS, LL gets better in comparison to SG. I'm gonna assume you aren't, though, since most people aren't.
If you're Zenithing for any of these components, you don't have the mana to LL on turn two anyway, so you might as well have Slaughter Games on turn 3.
In exchange, we get:
- Can't be countered, which means it's actually good against Miracles
- Targets opponents rather than players, if anyone still plays Misdirection
- Easier on the manabase if we're red- a lot of Jund builds play Grove, which means they're light on black sources
You're missing a few openers that give you 3 mana @ turn 2.
Fetch Bayou, GSZ -> Dryad Arbor, T2 drop another black source, is one. T1 Dryad Arbor, T2 Phyrexian Tower (however horrible and incredibly rare this line may be) is another.
And this, by the way, is why you should run plenty of ramp stuff - it helps you improve a bad MU (while doing a ton of other stuff for you, but that's not relevant now). It gives you a better chance to have the opening you need to power out your powerful hatecards against them.
This is true. I pretty much never run Arbor, so I didn't add it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Echelon
Then again Arbor is rarely in red lists, so Arbor lists want LL anyway and don't need more incentive to take it over SG.
So your big point is "Yes, well, Jund Fit lists normally don't run Arbor so we should just stick with the more expensive card"?Quote:
Originally Posted by Navsi
Shouldn't it be "Yes, maybe we should run Dryad Arbor, b/c it can either allow us to play a faster card which is rather important in one of our worst MUs or at least increases the number of lines we have to reach 4 mana on turn 3 so we might be able to power out that more expensive card in time more often"?
I might be an idiot for thinking that improving a bad MU by even the slightest bit is a good thing though.