What Einherjer said. His advice on the match up is very helpful. I can attest to that. However, if you get paired up against a Miracles master like Einherjer you might just have to run :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
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What Einherjer said. His advice on the match up is very helpful. I can attest to that. However, if you get paired up against a Miracles master like Einherjer you might just have to run :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
I have had success with both the TNN and Dark confidant versions against miracles. Not so much with the tombstalkers. I think this matchup is pretty even if you are on one of those two builds, much better than matchups like painter which is nigh unwinnable. The plan is exactly what you would expect, disrupt their hand and mana whenever you can, put 1-2 threats in play and hold onto the rest until they deal with the ones on board. Pretty grindy, but winnable. The difficulty miracles has dealing with TNN (though I boarded down to 2-3 in post board games from 4 main) and the strength of extra cards from bob make this match up reasonable with either of those builds. Tombstalker is quite bad, as they interact with it so well via graveyard hate (RIP primarily), jace, and removal. Duress and thoughtseize are particularly strong. Once they have an active top, your discard becomes much worse as they can float their best cards. When they have top online look for opportunities presented by poor land usage or aggressive fetching to disrupt their mana and sneak in spells for value. Against experienced players in close games you will have to be selective about sequencing which spells you bait/lead with and which ones you followup up with.Quote:
Originally Posted by KobeBryan
Because there are numerous different builds of TA out there right now, miracles players don't have easy many sideboard choices. Don't hesitate to change your configuration between game 2 and 3 to keep them on their toes and respond to what they show you.
You often don't need to fire off your abrupt decay on counterbalance at the first chance (as is the instinct when you first start playing this matchup), since if you have a threat you probably want to simply draw cards until they deal with your threat. Holding decay in postboard games is especially strong as it gives you outs to RIP, blood moon, stoneforge, etc which various builds are running and which are more threatening than a naked counterbalance or a counterbalance-top when you have a threat. If this deck is popular in your area a krosan grip is an excellent sideboard choice as an additional decay style effect that is difficult to interact with.
I suspect creeping tar pit is good here, though I haven't been putting it in my board, so I don't have first hand experience there. I mulligan land heavy hands here, as you really need to be proactive in the early turns (1-3). Not sure there is anything particularly new or insightful here, but hopefully it is helpful.
Edit: Yeah, post 3652 by Einherjer is on the mark, read it.
Guys, i'm having problems to beat merfolks(with true-name). What's the best strategy against them?
MY STRATEGY
I run javier domingues (gp parins champs) http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=63534
I try to keep hands full of threats (goyf + delver) and mulligan spell heavy hands(fow, daze, discart). They are hard to controll and i think our only out trying to rush them. Play threats and hymn them. Wastland only for mutavault(maybe on our only blue source on emergence) and trying to kill only lords.
Best cards: DELVER!, delver, delver, goyf and hymn
Weak cards: fow, daze, discart
After sideboard
On play: -3fow -2xthoughtseize -2bob +2 golgari charm +1 engineered plague +1 Diabolic Edict +2 Disfigure +1 Dismember
On draw: -4daze -3fow -2bob (maybe keep fow and take out hymn)
BOB is worth or too risky?
LIST
Creatures (14)
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (23)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hymn to Tourach
Preboard focus on trying to tempo them out with delver, goyf, hymn, daze. Force Turn 1 Aether Vials if you can. Postboard you have more flexibility with your game plan since your better suited to play control by siding in more efficent and impactful answers and don't need to play a tempo game from the start. However, you should ultimately look to kill them with delver, goyf, or both. Preboard and postboard focus try to save your removal for their lords if you can afford to. Without island walk a single goyf often just stall walls their whole team. I especially enjoy it when I have goyf holding down the fort while delver clocks them in the air.Quote:
Originally Posted by order
With your sb I would sb in the following way against merfolk with TNN:
+1 Null Rod, +1 Diabolic Edict, +2 Disfigure, +1 Dismember, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 Hymn to Tourach + Engineered Plague
-3 FoW, -2 Confidant - 2 Thoughtseize -2 Daze
I don't like thoughtseize against aggressive creature decks like merfolk but hymn to tourach is pretty good against them since it's a two-for-one.
Table of Contents
I. Overview
II. History
III. Core List
IV. Maindeck Flex Slots
V. Common Sideboard Cards
VI. General Strategic Guidelines
VII. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide
VIII. Other Successful Lists
IX. Further Reading
I. Overview
Team America (A.K.A. BUG Delver) is fundamentally an Aggro-Control deck. The current face of Team America splices elements of Blue-based Tempo and BGx midrange. This composition allows the deck to make powerful plays in the early game and still be able to play magic into the mid and late game. The deck looks to generate tempo through a “Tap out” method with an early Deathrite Shaman. The idea of Tapout tempo is to cast lots of cheap spells and hold up manaless counters in the early game to get so far ahead your that your opponent has a hard time getting back into the game. Proactive discard, manaless counters, the uncounterable Abrupt Decay, and high quality creatures allows this deck to accel at generating tempo. The deck usually plays around 14 creatures total. All of these creatures are so good that they must be answered right away as they end the game quickly (Delver of Secrets, Tarmogoyf, Tombstalker) or take over the game by allowing you to get so far ahead (Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman). The cantrip suite of Brainstorm and Ponder enables a consistency that is the hallmark of Legacy’s tempo strategies.
II. History
The deck itself has an interesting history to its creation as it started out as joke deck of David Gearhart’s. In its primordial form, it was originally just Blue-Black, played Tombstalkers and Confidants as threats, and had Team America’s early land destruction package of Sinkhole and Wasteland. Also, it had no removal and main decked four Extirpates. "To say the least it was pretty bad (although pretty fun to play)" said Daniel Signorini about the first iteration of Team America. Eventually, Dan and David started working on the deck to make it more competitive, at one point adding Phyrexian dreadnoughts and snuff outs. When they decided to try out Goyf the deck began to come into its own:
4 Tombstalker
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Thoughtseize
4 Snuff Out
4 Sinkhole
4 Wasteland
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
1 Bloodstained Mire
4 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
1 Bayou
Sideboard:
4 Tormod's Crypt
4 Blue Elemental Blast
4 Krosan Grip
3 Diabolic Edict
A far cry from present-day lists. The additions of Delver of Secrets, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman and Abrupt Decay in recent years have enabled Team America to become one of the most competitive tempo decks in Legacy.
III. Core List
The current core of Team America consists of the following cards:
Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman - The best creature in the deck. He does it all: acceleration, threat, and stabilizer. While not as aggressive as a Turn One Delver, this card enables some of most insane starts for the deck.
4 Delver of Secrets - The namesake of legacy's tempo decks. This card helps the deck put pressure on your opponent fast and is at its best when played within the first two turns. You should never play less than four for this reason alone.
4 Tarmogoyf - Good ol' Goyf. This card provides a huge body at such low cost that can stabilize the board against more aggressive creature decks and clock combo, midrange, and control pretty fast.
Instants
4 Brainstorm - Arguably the best card in legacy. With a fetchland its almost Ancestral Recall. In this deck Brainstorm helps ensure our Delvers flip in addition to all its other amazing uses.
4 Abrupt Decay - The other reason to play Green and Black. While less efficient than Lightning Bolt and Swords to Plowshares, it makes up for it by being uncounterable and more flexible overall.
3-4 Force of Will - Often called "the glue" that holds Legacy together. While bad in fair matchups, it is still a manaless catch-all answer that can be used to out-tempo your opponent when used rightly.
4 Daze - The other manaless counter that helps the deck generate tempo. You should be less selective with this spell in what you want to counter much of the time since Daze gets worse as the the game goes into the mid and late game. There are exceptions to this though, like when you want save it for a counter war against a combo deck.
Sorceries
3-4 Ponder - Pretty much Brainstorm 5-8, though without a fetch it is usually better than Brainstorm at digging for answers or action. Personally I'm hesitant to play less than 4 since cantrips allow tempo decks to be highly consistent and adaptable to many different situations. I would never go below 3.
2-4 Hymn to Tourach - Consider this card the Stifle of the deck as you often want it to hit lands when you play it. It is less consistent than Stifle at denying your opponent mana but more explosive and does much more in general. At its best when played in the early game to force your opponent to stumble.
The Mana Base
The configuration of the mana base depends on your build. More blue heavy builds usually run a 2-1 split between Tropical Island and Bayou respectively while traditional black heavy builds run the reverse split. Anways, here's a skeleton for Team America's manabase:
8-9 BUG Color fetches
1-2 Tropical Island
1-2 Bayou
3-4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland - Not really a land, but don't be hesitant to use for mana it if it gets a Goyf on the table!
IV. Maindeck Flex Slots
Assuming you follow the above core list, the remaining slots are usually filled with following cards, depending on meta and preference:
Creatures
1-3 Tombstalkers - The traditional "resilient" beater of the deck. He's fantastic against any fair deck not playing white. Best in metas with not too many Swords, Jace, Rest in Peace, etc.
1-3 Dark Confidant - Bob provides the deck another angle of attack by giving it more grinding power. He will not end the game fast like Tombstalker, but like Deathrite Shaman he will put you so far ahead that you should eventually win.
1-3 True-Name Nemesis - The most resilient threat for the deck to fill out the last few creature slots.
Instant
1-2 Disfigure - A supplemental removal spell. Effective for killing must kill one-drops like Mother of Runes, Goblin Lackey, opposing Deathrite Shamans, etc.
1 Dismember - Another supplemental removal spell that can kill more creatures than Disfigure. This card can often kill a Goyf. However, the potential life loss can sometimes matter.
Sorcery
2-3 Thoughtseize - The other discard spell to consider. Less exposive than Hymn to Tourach but more consistent since you get to choose what card to take. The information is often very helpful as well.
Misc.
1-3 Liliana of the Veil - This card is a peculiar consideration at first since planeswalkers have not traditionally been part of tempo maindecks. However, Liliana provides awesome incremental advantage at such a low cost, making her the exception. Played Turn 2 off a Deathrite is a particularly powerful play that can shut down many decks. In Team America she allows you to grind into the mid and late game.
1 Sylvan Library - Your other option for cheap incremental advantage.
V. Common Sideboard Cards
Creatures
1-2 Vendilion Clique - The most common creature in a Team America sideboard. Great against combo, control, and any deck with Stoneforge Mystic.
Instants
1-2 Diabolic Edict - Another supplemental removal spell. This effect is already provided well enough by Liliana of the Veil, but its not unheard of to see this in some sideboards for those who want a mix of removal.
2-3 Disfigure - Same reason as in previous section.
1 Dismember - Same reason as in previous section.
2-3 Golgari Charm - One of the best sideboard cards Team America has access to. You will mostly use its first two modes, but the third can be put to good use sometimes.
1-2 Krosan Grip - Mostly an answer to Batterskull but can be used to good effect in other matchups.
2-3 Spell Pierce - For those times where you want more counter magic, which is usually against combo and control.
Sorceries
1 Hymn to Tourach - For those who want another Hymn in some matchups.
1-2 Thoughtseize - For those who want more spot discard postboard.
Misc.
1-2 Grafdigger's Cage - Your primary graveyard hate card with the added bonus of being phenomenal against Elves.
1 Null Rod - Even if this isn't vintage, there are still powerful artifacts you want to hate on.
1-2 Pithing Needle - A highly flexible hate card since there are many permanents with activated abilities being used.
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor - This card is very helpful in many fair matchups like stoneblade and the mirror. However, Jace is a 4 drop so you shouldn't play more than 1 in the board if you play him at all.
1-2 Liliana of the Veil - Sometimes you want more Lilianas postboard.
1 Sylvan Library - This card is a very good singleton sb card as well. In some matchups it doesn't do enough so sometimes its just better to have it in the board to bring it in for those matchups you actually want it.
VI. General Strategic Guidlines
Here are some guildlines to keep in mind when playing Team America:
1. DEATHRITE SHAMAN IS KING: Turn one against an unknown opponent Deathrite Shaman is this deck's best first play. To quote Bob Huang: "I go Deathrite Shaman into Hymn to Tourach, discarding two lands, and crush him. Team America has so many broken openings like this one. Deathrite Shaman + Hymn to Tourach + Daze Wasteland Delver of Secrets is incredibly backbreaking against almost every deck in the format."
2. THIS IS NOT RUG DELVER: I mentioned earlier that this deck seeks to generate Tempo through a "Tapout" method. With traditional builds you are often better off trying to cast as many spells as possible in the early game. There exceptions to this though. For instance, it is best to play one threat at a time for the most part against miracles if you can afford to so that they don't get value out of Terminus.
.
3. DISRUPTION IS MORE IMPORTANT THAN THREATS MUCH OF THE TIME: There are times where the opening hands of this deck are either very threat heavy with no disruption and disruption heavy with no threats. Since this is legacy, heavy disruption hands are better in most situations than threat heavy hands. Interacting with your opponent is key in many games, especially against combo. Again though it's all dependent on the match up. In the dark though, I'm fine keeping a disruption heavy hand, especially if it has a cantrip or two. On the other hand I'm hesitant to keep a threat heavy hand in the dark because you will just be dead to any combo deck unless they brick really hard.
VII. Matchup Analysis and Sideboarding Guide
The purpose of this section is to give an idea what to do against decks considered Tier 1-1.5. Credit goes to Bob Huang for the sideboarding advice and some of the matchup analysis. Keep in mind that the sideboarding advice is just to give you an idea of how to sideboard with this deck and is influenced by Bob Huang's playstyle. You should really be sideboarding in response to how your opponent plays and what they do in postboard games. Also, keep in mind all matchup ratings apply to Game 1 only. Match ups may become favorable, even, or unfavorable postboard, in which case I will state how much better or worse a matchup becomes postboard.
First things first, the sideboarding advice refers to Lawrence Moo Young's Open winning list:
BUG Delver by Lawrence Moo Young
1st at SCG Legacy Open Orlando
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Planeswalkers (2)
2 Liliana of the Veil
Instants (16)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
Sorceries (8)
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
Lands (20)
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
3 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Submerge
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit
Here is the guide itself:
RUG Delver Favored
-4 FoW, -2 Hymn on play, - 2 Daze, -2 FoW, -2 Hymn on draw
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
RUG is still alive and kicking, though it has seen better days. On the play you need to respect Stifle more. Some people like to keep to Force of Will on the draw because of Stifle. As long as you can establish your landbase and don't get blown out by Submerge in postboard games, you should be able to win.
UWR Delver Even
-1 Tombstalker, -4 FoW, -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana
This matchup can be pretty skill intensive. If neither side can successfully execute a one-sided blow out the game becomes really grindy. While TNN is something to respect, Stoneforge Mystic is usually more scary since they can often shut you down with an early Batterskull. This means it might be worth to hold back onto that one Abrupt Decay instead of killing that Delver if there's a chance they have Stoneforge in their hand. Also, since they play so much more removal than RUG, it might be better to play discard spells prior to playing threats in the early game.
ANT Favored
-2 Tombstalker, -1 Bayou, -3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana
This matchup is pretty easy in my opinion as long as you know how their deck works. There's not too much to say here. Play a threat early and disrupt them as they get clocked. Hymn is a beast in this matchup since they need a critical mass of cards to go off. Play Golgari Charm over Abrupt Decay if you see Burning Wish since that makes it more likely that they have access to Empty the Warrens. Otherwise Abrupt Decay is better since it can kill LED.
Elves Unfavored
-1 Bayou, -4 Daze, -4 Hymn, -2 Liliana
+1 Grafdigger’s, +3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Submerge
Ah Combo Elves. One of the most interesting and frustrating matchups. Game 1 you must focus on tempoing them out. Preboard you lack the tools to keep control of the board for long. Your flyers (Delver/ Tombstalker if you have them) are your best threats. Post board you get a little more wiggle room in your game plan but should still focus on closing the game out as soon as possible since Elves has the ability both to race us without comboing off and grind us out with their synergies. Postboard Natural Order for Craterhoof becomes more difficult since you have so much removal so you usually just have to keep them off Natural Order for Proggy or Glimpse.
EsperBlade Even or Unfavored
-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -4 FoW, -2 Tombstalker, -2 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
I find this matchup to be highly dependent on the list. Stock TNN lists are even in my opinion since we have ways to deal with/ race TNN. More traditional lists with Lingering Souls are more of a headache, turning the matchup into an unfavorable one preboard at least. Either way we are definitely the beat down. Try to get them to stumble with wasteland and Hymn. Don’t overextend into Supreme Verdict if you can afford to. Like the UWR matchup Stoneforge Mystic is more scary and usually is a must kill/counter on sight. Also, don’t let them resolve Jace. You’re going have a bad day if they do except in corner cases where you too far ahead for it to matter.
BUG Delver Even
-4 FoW, -1 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Liliana
I find the mirror to be even like UWR Delver in which the die roll can heavily influence the outcome and games either end quickly via one-sided blowouts or after a long war of attrition where the person who can stick a threat the longest or generate an insurmountable advantage wins. Deathrite Shaman’s pretty important in the mirror and thus you should not let one stick. If your opponent has one and you don’t it is easy to fall behind fast.
Sneak and Show Unfavored
-1 Bayou, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Abrupt Decay
+1 Liliana, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 KGrip, +1 Golgari Charm
This is one of the few matchups I would rather avoid. It’s not that it’s entirely hopeless so much as their deck can sometimes just nut draw you out and there is nothing you can do about it. This is just a matter of Sneak and Show (arguably) being the best combo deck in legacy at the moment since it has a good balance of speed, resilience, consistency, and power. All and all, our game plan is the same as against any other combo deck: ride one or two threats to victory and disrupt them while you clock them. Postboard you often have to worry about blood moon and leyline of sanctity often.
Death and Taxes Unfavored
-4 FoW, -4 Daze, -2 Ponder
+3 Disfigure, +3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
This MU is usually bad preboard. Postboard it gets much better since you have all the removal in the world to kill all their stupid white creatures. I’m usually a fan of keeping Liliana and Hymn in even though it’s a risk with potential sb Wilt-Leaf Lieges. However, they have no card advantage so hymn and Liliana are brutal when they don’t have their lieges.
Death Blade Even
-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -4 Daze
+3 Disfigure, +2 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
Legacy’s premiere goodstuff deck. All advice for Esperblade pretty much applies here except Tombstalker is playable here since they have fewer Jaces usually and no Rest in Peace postboard.
Shardless BUG Even
-4 FoW, -1 Sea, -1 Abrupt Decay
+3 Disfigure, +1 Submerge, +1 Tar Pit, +1 Liliana
Hymn and wasteland are your best friends in this match up. You need to try and get them to stumble with those cards and other disruption since they will out value you in the long run if you don’t.
Miracles Even
-1 Bayou, -1 Sea, -2 Tombstalker, -4 Daze, -2 Deathrite Shaman
+3 Golgari Charm, +1 KGrip, +3 Spell Pierce, +1 Clique, +1 Liliana, +1 Tar Pit
This matchup is about killing them as fast as you can without overextending into Terminus. However, with that said, know when it’s time to get all your dudes on the board for an alpha strike. Use your discard and Liliana to grind their hand down while also clocking them. Postboard you want to side in any permanent based hate or advantage generators like Pithing Needle, Null Rod, Sylvan Library, and Jace, the Mind Sculptor, etc.
VIII. Other Successful Lists
BUG Delver
Greg Mitchell
1st Place at StarCityGames.com Legacy Open on 3/16/2014
Creatures (14)
1 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Tombstalker
1 True-Name Nemesis
Planeswalkers (1)
1 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)
2 Bayou
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
2 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (25)
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
3 Daze
2 Disfigure
3 Force of Will
1 Spell Pierce
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
1 Sylvan Library
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Disfigure
1 Envelop
1 Flusterstorm
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
1 Spell Pierce
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
BUG Delver
Javier Dominguez
1st Place at Grand Prix on 2/16/2014
Legacy
Creatures (14)
2 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
Planeswalkers (3)
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands (20)
2 Bayou
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (23)
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Force of Will
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Ponder
2 Thoughtseize
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Null Rod
1 Engineered Plague
1 Sylvan Library
1 Diabolic Edict
2 Disfigure
1 Dismember
1 Force of Will
2 Golgari Charm
1 Spell Pierce
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Hymn to Tourach
BUG Delver
Daniel Signorini
9th Place at Grand Prix on 11/17/2013
Legacy
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Lands (20)
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Spells (26)
1 Sylvan Library
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
1 Disfigure
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
Sideboard
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sylvan Library
2 Disfigure
3 Golgari Charm
1 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Creeping Tar Pit
IX. Helpful Articles
Greg Mitchell's SCG Seattle Report
Bob Huang's SCG Baltimore Report
Bob Huang's GP DC and SCG Providence Report
The Old Primer
Shout out to Daniel Signorini, Bob Huang, and anyone else who was instrumental in making Team America what it is today. I'd also like to thank TheArchitect for the banner above and Einherjer for providing good points for the miracles matchup analysis. And remember guys, the deck is called:
http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...ps27785105.jpg
(Thank shrubs for this one XD)
Nice work on the initial primer opening Dragonslayer. I approve what has been done so far. It is definitely cool to see the origins of the deck and how far it has come.
Here is the list I am planning on taking down SCG Seattle with:
Lands: 20
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
Creatures: 14
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Tombstalker
Spells: 26
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard:
3 Disfigure
2 Golgari Charm
1 Liliana of the Veil
2 Spell Pierce
1 Envelop
1 Sylvan Library
1 Vendillion Clique
1 Grafdiggers Cage
1 Krosan Krip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Submerge
Any last minute thoughts on the list? I am leaning towards hymnstalker because TNN hasn't had a chance to play in Seattle yet so I am predicting more UWR. I think Hymn to tourach is just bonkers right now. One thing I am wondering is if I should diversify the sideboard and main decks slightly buy cutting a FOW from the main and moving it to the board in exchange for the Library or something else.
Envelop is a concession to miracles though I don't know if its worth it. Spell pierce just hits more stuff most of the time, even though it will never counter a terminus or an entreat.
Thanks Thorhammer! I'm hoping to get this done maybe by the end of the week before my break ends. We'll see if that happens.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorhammer
As for your list your predicting UWR as the stoneforge deck that will have most representation, I agree that stalker will be the best choice in those last few creature slots.
On cutting Force of Will from the main deck, I am sort of opposed to it in stalker lists. It's kind of okay in confidant lists because it make bob less suicidal, but there are two reasons to consider not cutting the 4th FoW in stalker lists: 1. Your instant sorcery count for delver is already kind of low-ish. 2. The main deck blue count is already kind of low as well. I would consider moving the 4th force to the board only if you are expecting fair decks to overwhelmingly outnumber unfair decks in the open field. I don't know anything about the west coast meta so that's up to you really.
Envelop is actually not that bad in other matchups you would want it. It counters a lot of key combo cards like infernal tutor and Show and Tell. Again, it's a meta call of how well represented you expect miracles and combo to be in the field. Joe Lossett plays in pretty much every west coast open right?
I'm not a huge fan of Needle. Enemy #1 against Blade decks is Batterskull, which Needle only sometimes stops. You need to either have it before Stoneforge is active or you need to spend a card to kill the Germ. Against Miracles, it's good against Top, but Einherjer mentioned in his report that a single hate card is not enough. Against lands it's surprisingly awful - you'll only catch a Lands player with their pants down if they're bad or you're lucky.Quote:
Originally Posted by Thorhammer
I prefer playing an answer card. Right now I'm on Pulse, but Bob Hwuang has been advocating another Grip. I'm worried about Miracles, and Pulse is better against the ways they beat us - Entreat for 2-3 while leaving up Pierce mana, and forcing through Jace.
As far as the Seattle meta, don't believe that TNN hasn't arrived. There's a ton of Delver, plenty of Miracles, and a depressing number of Stoneblade decks. Overall, it's more blue-saturated and combo-light than most other areas.
I don't think Confidant and Stalker can be compared solely.
Stalker is a fat beater that ends the game quickly if he lands. We use him in a tempo plan. We disrupt early, drop the fattie and race for the win. Confidant hardly every attacks, so playing him asks for a grindy game plan where we sit back, wait for our hand to fill up with other business and go for the win later. It depends on the expected meta and your own playing style whether sitting back is a better idea than to just go for the kill as soon as you can. Also if you choose to play the grindier game, I think your list should be tuned accordingly. Just playing the standard list with -2 Stalker, +2 Confidant probably won't work optimally, since the standard list is well tuned for Stalker and its strategy, and not so much for the controllish strategy.
I would be very interested in your thoughts on this Asthereal! What list / card choices would you suggest?Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Also, great to see the primer rewritten Dragonslayer, great work! Looking forward to seeing it updated.
One card I would probably not play in a Confidant list is Hymn to Tourach. Grindy games ask for targeted solutions, giving you the choice what cards you want to respond to and what cards you can tolerate for the time being. Spell Pierce and Disfigure would be my first choices as replacements. Targeted discard could also work. It does in EsperBlade variants, which are also a bit more controllish.Quote:
Originally Posted by wwoning
I haven't tested any Confidant lists yet, so I'm not 100% sure what choices I'd make, but that's where I'd start.
(Seriously, I went top-8 twice in a row with Stalkers. I'm not ready to switch just yet. :tongue: )
I have to disagree as this does not make a lot of sense to me. Here is my thinking: In longer grindier games, card advantage/resource advantage matters. This is why force of will comes out in grindy matchups like against stoneblade. Hymn is a 2 for 1 and the power of the random aspect is not trivial. When you are running bob you are making card advantage part of your game plan. While hymn is frequently a poor late game draw, most of the suggested cards are as well (yes gamestate and hand contents matter, etc). Targeted discard is very strong against combo decks and decks that need specific cards to beat you, but those are not traditionally grindy decks or matchups. The question of whether you want hymn post board is of course very different and depends largely on the matchups. I think if you are running bob that hymn should be high on your include list, not remove list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
I have been running BUG delver variants for about the last 3 months now and I am strongly on the Confidant boat myself.
Stalker is a very brittle cannon to me. If he gets bounced by Jace (not nearly as common anymore), then he is basically dead for the remainder of the game. Additionally Goyf and DRS are not huge fans of his either.
TMM is simply very volatile in the current format. He is a known quantity and your oppnents will have solutions to him.
Confidant, while getting splash damage from TNN has proven his worth through the insane amount of card advantage he generates. In my meta, there is an extremely large amount of combo running around so having excess to CA and a clock has been very good for me. While, Confidant favors a grindy game, I disagree that Hymm isn't worth it. Hymm is still a solid 2 for 1 and can occasionally set your opponent worlds farther back then a Seize could ever hope to and Confidant can continue to further the advantage of Hymm by pressuring your opponent to commit earlier for fear of more discard/counters.
My list eschews all the Abrupt Decays in favor of a heavier control suite game 1. I run the standard set of Decays in the bored and have consistenly been rewarded. My overall match record with the Confidant Variant is 29-7.
I also have to disagree on not playing hymn in Confidant lists. Hymn is actually a good card in the early game of attrition wars because it grinds your opponent's hand down even if it is a bad top deck. That is just the nature of discard in general. Amazing in the early game, decent mid game, mostly bad in the late game. If hymn is bad with Confidant why does Jund, THE ATTRITION DECK, play hymn along side confidant. I have been testing a confidant list that is close to the hymn stalker lists except it plays one less land and a 3-2 split between hymn and thoughtseize respectively. It has tested pretty well against miracles, though you still have to play tightly against them as the match up is pretty even on both sides assuming both are good pilots and the Team America player is running Dark Confidant in place of Stalker. I haven't played against much UWR or Deathblade yet but I'd imagine Confidant's pretty good against them as well since those decks are pretty slow in killing you. I also really like Confidant against Show and Tell decks, another match up I've gotten to test a decent amount. They do nothing to pressure your life total so you can play Confidant at any point to draw into more disruption to keep control of the game. The only combo decks I don't like him is where changes in your life total affects their combo like Tendrils Storm decks. The fair decks I don't like having him are against the more aggressive ones like RUG. Tombstalker is better against them.
What are your changes nodahero? I would argue that you want as much removal as possible with confidant and cutting decays seem bad.
Good points. Joe losset will Defnitely be there but I've heard he is on tezzeret. I do like pulse. Needle just seems to hit multiple things and is a way to stop the depths combo or get out from underneath a wasteland lock. Pulse does answer more things though. Needle on sensei's top is just sooooo good. I might try the pulse though as a good catch all. Do you bring it in against sneak and show? Imperial painter?Quote:
Originally Posted by phazonmutant
I highlighted the part why I feel discard is bad in grindy games.Quote:
Originally Posted by limbo
If a game runs long, discard will do nothing at all.
They draw a card and play it. Discard cannot influence that at all.
Disfigure at least influences the board state, which is an important thing in grindy games.
Spell Pierce at least can be sandbagged to try and counter something they cast. Especially stuff like Jace and expensive removal.
The worst cards in grindy games are:
- Force of Will (like you said)
- Daze (becomes a dead card quickly)
- Discard spells (explained above)
The best cards are:
- Creatures
- Removal
- Cantrips
- Planeswalkers
(- Hard counters)
Force of Will is needed to not lose against combo. Daze is very good on the play, so you could decide to run those on side and make sure you really only have it on the play, but this runs into issues with the blue count for FoW. A suite with counters and maybe discard is needed to make sure combo doesn't become an auto-loss.
The thing is, you cannot optimize your list. Going for the optimal grindy list will make you bad against combo. Going for the best tempo list will make you worse against controllish decks. It's a trade-off. But note that my main point was only that you cannot just compare Confidant and Stalker as such. They serve different purposes that comply with different strategies. Your choice influences other card choices as well. Cards that rock in the early turns will be worse for you if you aim for longer games. My suggestion to cut Hymn isn't sacred. Maybe Daze should be the one that goes.
Regardless of your build, the first 3 turns are the most important ones. Hymn in the early turns allows you to lean on your opponents and direct the action.
I agree confidant, TNN and stalker can not be directly compared or directly swapped. I don't think anyone suggested that, or if they did I missed it. My confidant build for example is 19 land 10 cantrips, only 1 lily, while my TNN and tombstalker builds were 20 lands, 8 cantrips, 2-3 lily and different spell mixes. And the sideboards are different. Anyway...
Just because discard is bad in long grindy games (I think it is still very valuable in the early game of attrition wars), does not make it inferior in a Confidant list. We are not trying to build the best BUG Midrange deck here. This is Team America, a tempo deck that can also midrange, though not as good as something like Shardless BUG. I kind of see us as closer UWR than RUG in that respect. We can have some pretty aggressive starts, even more aggressive than UWR really, but we can also come back if we get a little behind unlike RUG. UWR has a similar gameplan of tempoing out the opponent but they can also play magic into the mid and late game due to their 7-8 removal spells and Stoneforge package. The fact of the matter is that discard gives the deck another angle of attack and is actually often stronger than counterspells in the early game because you don't have to wait for your opponent to cast something in order to disrupt their game plan. If we really wanted to optimize our use of Confidant in the main deck we should probably cut the delvers as well because it is pretty bad in the mid and late game, but at that point you are looking to play a different deck, not Team America. Dark Confidant serves a similar role to Liliana of the Vei in this deck. It is another "slow card" that ensures our deck does not run out of gas by providing incremental card advantage. This makes us slower but this maybe the way to go in a meta full of blade decks and miracle control. Also, discard is pretty good against those kinds of decks. All and all, I'd rather play a deck that gives me a chance against both fair and unfair decks in a metagame where combo decks still constitute a good portion of the field than the best grindy deck because the best grindy deck, like you said, loses to combo much of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
More news on the primer: I've posted a banner in the post where I'm working on the new primer. I've posted two verisions: a large and small version. Do let me know what you guys think of the design and whether you think the small or big version would be better for the primer.
My confidant list is as follows plus minus a few counts depending on who I see at the event...
4 Delver
4 Goyf
4 DRS
2 Confidant
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Hymm
2 Thoughtseize
4 Spellpierce
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
20 Land
The board is generally
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Disfigure
1 Dark Confidant
2 Liliana
4 misc control spells
Again my maindeck is geared at hating on combo way more then other midrange/aggro lists. My meta is probably 85% combo. The random 15% other decks tend to be either Delver/Mystic decks hence the the 8 removal spell package plus lilly Confidant.