[Deck] Dredge

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I'm not complaing that players are "abusing" the overpowered nature of Dredge, I'm complaining that everyone seems to be jumping on the deck building band wagon every time a Dredge deck wins. In a lot of ways, I view Dredge in Legacy the same way people viewed Storm 5 years ago in the same format, everyone was trying to "innovate" when they should've been optimizing and concentrating on how to play thru' hate.

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I find this to be a valid complaint, and I believe that the best way to go about it is to try and "educate" people whenever we have the chance. I guess that this rampant preference to "innovate" rather than "optimize" stems from the fact that it's inherently more fun to do the former than the latter, which is why there only seem to be a few of us that strive to go through the less obvious points that we hope would lead to more optimal configurations.

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

You start seeing 4xScavenging Ooze MD and Path to Exile SB in every aggro deck and shit is going to start changing real fast, it's just a matter of time.

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Amidst all our complaints, I believe that this is exactly what will bring justice to those that run so-called suboptimal builds - the meta. Someone already mentioned that the meta has already caught-up with Adam Prosak and his seemingly "carefree" build, and I find that the same would be inevitable for every other build that has "cheated" on the essentials to gain access to alternative lines of play. From time to time, people get rewarded for their gambles, but, by definition, gambling also involves a very real chance of losing (which is really more likely to happen).

Could this be the reason for why we're no longer in the DTB section? Just teasing :tongue:

Cheers,
jares

Voting for Hollywood, also.

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Originally Posted by Vandalize

People playing dredge needs to separate the 'core' from 'packages'. The core is the very simple conjunction of cards that makes the deck at least competitive, the very interaction of cards that makes the strategy of the decks. The packages are ADDITIONAL cards, that either helps you win against a given portion of the metagame, adding either speed or resilience, and it's based on IMPROVING matchups against the ones you struggle.

As an example from GWx Maverick: The 'core' is: 4-manadorks, 4 Mom, 4 Knight of the Reliquary, 4 Green Sun's Zenith. Stoneforge Mystic + Equipment is a package, Planeswalker is a package, Enlightned Tutor and Natural Order are both packages.

For Dredge, the very 'core' is: 4 Bridge from Below, 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Narcomoeba, 3 Ichorid, 12 Dredgers. This NEEDS to be in every list, because it's actually what makes this deck be as degenerate as it is.

Now, let's talk about packages. LED + Faithless Looting is a package. Dread Return + Targets are another package. Phantasmagorian + Nether Shadow is another package. Even anti-hate is a package. These packages aren't NECESSARY, but they accomplish some points, and cover some deck's weaknesses. To win with Dredge in the first place, you have to know what's your metagame is filled like, to either hit good Cabal Therapies, and to know when to grind out the game, or when to explode and just shit on your foe's face.

I'd definetely run DR Package + Flayer/FKZ if my meta was combo-oriented or filled with non-blue decks. As I would also play 4 Ichorids and Phantasmagorian in a heavy control metagame. It's like opting for playing Belcher or Ad Nauseam Tendrils, they both have their merits.

I think that HokusSchmokus german metagame is pretty much different from mine (I'm from Brazil). Therefore, our decks need to be focused on these matchups (although, our lists are pretty much the same). For USA players, the meta should be different. Making generalizations for an 'broad and unknown' metagame just don't make sense, because that doesn't even exist. And sometimes the packages you choose are not well prepared for what you'll face.

So putting all that togheter, I'd just like to quote that given the player's skills (and luck, to a lesser extent), any build of Dredge can put some results, despite running the packages you're not used to play.

EDIT: This deck needs a new primer.

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Well said - and that stuff would also be very helpful in the new primer.

Based on how you put it, I just realized that what I've been trying to achieve can somewhat be summarized as "trying to run as few packages as possible" (which might eventually lead to the build that would best address the "broad and unknown" metagame that doesn't ever exist :tongue:).

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

Voting for Hollywood, also.

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Same :smile:

Cheers,
jares

Thank you everyone for for putting me on the spot! :cool:

Anyways, I would be more than happy to begin a new Dredge primer. This is a deck that, while I've played it to a great deal of success, I am always learning with it because I respect its difficulty. This is an incredibly hard deck to play, and an even harder deck to write about. A lot of that stems from the fact that Dredge is a very subjective archetype that uses a core set of staples with an interchangeable supporting cast of cards that people feel incredibly protective about.

Learning how to play Dredge properly is like learning how, in some ways, to play Magic all over again. A lot of you have put hard work and effort into this archetype like myself, so you can imagine how difficult it would be to "recreate" a primer in the sense that everything that has been said is, for all intents and purposes, already written. That doesn't mean however that it needs an update, which I would say it does.

I would be more than happy to write a new primer for the archetype, but I do not want to step on anyone's toes.

I can honestly say that i feel my build is not suboptimal. I believe that the configuration of dredge you use should be based on two things: the predicted meta and your personal playstyle.

I did not believe that the GP would be made up of many control decks, so i opted for the "combo plan" G1 with the ability to board in to 4x Cabal and 4x Ichorid against those decks i need to grind out. My choice was right- I did not face any control all day until round 15.

Also, I think hollywood is the right guy for the job.

Also x2: I did not durdle through the meta facing no hate. I did face hate.

@Izor: Absolutely agreed.

@Vandalize: I am from Brazil too, what's your Ligamagic's nickname? I'd be happy to discuss some metagame's aspects with you.

Klazam has a point, indeed Dredge can adapt to someone else's play style and metagame. One may argue his list is less consistent than Hokus' (for example), but it's a price he choose to pay, in order to get a faster-combo oriented deck. He obviously got advantages with that choice.

I believe this difference between play style (combo or grind out) should be exposed in the new Primer. I vote on Hollywood to be the writer, too.

If the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist, the second greatest trick he ever pulled was convincing people that "playstyle" was a relevant justification for running suboptimal cards.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

If the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist, the second greatest trick he ever pulled was convincing people that "playstyle" was a relevant justification for running suboptimal cards.

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I find that "Justification" is the wrong word to describe it. The reality is that people will have different preferences for how they want to play the game, and, because of these differences, the creation of different variations of each deck will be inevitable.

"Playstyle" does not justify running suboptimal cards, but it is undeniable that it does influence one's basis for what is optimal or otherwise - and this is where it becomes even more subjective. At the end of the day, it will be up to each of us to define our bases for what we wish to call to be "optimal" or "suboptimal", and without providing sound reasoning for these bases, we'll just be going in circles.

Regards,
jares

p.s. I find that the greatest trick that the devil has ever pulled is convincing people that they're always right.

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Originally Posted by Anusien

If the greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing people he didn't exist, the second greatest trick he ever pulled was convincing people that "playstyle" was a relevant justification for running suboptimal cards.

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The third probably was convincing people they all know which are the optimal cards.

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Originally Posted by Klazam

I can honestly say that i feel my build is not suboptimal. I believe that the configuration of dredge you use should be based on two things: the predicted meta and your personal playstyle.

I did not believe that the GP would be made up of many control decks, so i opted for the "combo plan" G1 with the ability to board in to 4x Cabal and 4x Ichorid against those decks i need to grind out. My choice was right- I did not face any control all day until round 15.

Also, I think hollywood is the right guy for the job.

Also x2: I did not durdle through the meta facing no hate. I did face hate.

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In my last post I wrote down different thoughts, and I kind of merged them together, which is why you must think that I'm criticizing you and your build now. I apologize.

I'll try to put it separately. First of all, I am holding my point that DR packages (using the word as Vandalize described very well above) are GENERALLY not needed in the main deck. In very strange metagames I might play some myself, as I have done in the past (mostly I just play Iona, though), so I'm not going to refuse that. Flayer is ans will always be a win ore card in my eyes, but we can just agree to disagree on this and call it a day.

The second thing I was referring to was actually Adam Prosak's list and his article that he wrote after his SCG win. I strongly disagree with his points about anti hate and that he feels he doesn't need it. HE was only lucky to win that tournament. I did not mean to say this about you. I like your build a lot better, mainly because you do have anti hate. And it was Prosak who lucked through the tournament without facing any real hate, I also didn't mean to say this about you. I don't want to criticise you for something you achieved with this deck, especially because I can't show such a finish myself. Good job on that!



I agree that Hollywood is the right person to write a new primer if he likes to. I think that Hokus for instance could wirte one as well (as he suggested he could), but it would probably be very similar to the new Dredge primer in the German forum which is up to come, so I'd be fine with a more general primer here and everyone who actually understands German can look up that list in the German forum. Or Hollywood could link it/sum up the main elements of it in the new primer, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Mojeh

@Izor: Absolutely agreed.

@Vandalize: I am from Brazil too, what's your Ligamagic's nickname? I'd be happy to discuss some metagame's aspects with you.

Klazam has a point, indeed Dredge can adapt to someone else's play style and metagame. One may argue his list is less consistent than Hokus' (for example), but it's a price he choose to pay, in order to get a faster-combo oriented deck. He obviously got advantages with that choice.

I believe this difference between play style (combo or grind out) should be exposed in the new Primer. I vote on Hollywood to be the writer, too.

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Though I've noted that "play style" and the need to adjust to a meta game are two factors that influence how deck variations are built, I believe that we would benefit more if we were to look at these variations in the way that Vandalize put it: in terms of "Packages".

The availability of these packages dictate how we're able to construct our deck according to our preferred "play style"/"game plan" (most of which have been previously noted by Vandalize):

• LED Package
• DR Package
• Phantasmagorian Package
• Anti-Hate Package
• Manaless Package
• Firestorm Package
• Bloodghast Package
• Tortured Existence Package (?) :tongue:

If we look at it this way, I believe that it becomes clearer that the differences in our configurations are really just based on our understanding of how these packages support the game plan that we wish to take on. Of course, it goes without saying that some packages are better than others, and it's up to us to determine the mix of packages that will best help us win.

We really need a new primer... :laugh:

Kind Regards,
jares

Will the new primer be about Quadlaser LED Dredge, or the archetype?
I'd love to see some hybrid configurations in the primer, if it's for the archetype...

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Originally Posted by Izor

First of all, I am holding my point that DR packages (using the word as Vandalize described very well above) are GENERALLY not needed in the main deck.

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Originally Posted by Izor

The second thing I was referring to was actually Adam Prosak's list and his article that he wrote after his SCG win. I strongly disagree with his points about anti hate and that he feels he doesn't need it.

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I second Izor on these points.

Regarding anti-hate, though, I would note that we should be cautious to not overdo it, to avoid diluting the deck too much.

Kind Regards,
jares

I messaged Di and let him know I have no problem working on a new primer for the forum.

EDIT: Approved.

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Originally Posted by Izor

I agree that Hollywood is the right person to write a new primer if he likes to. I think that Hokus for instance could wirte one as well (as he suggested he could), but it would probably be very similar to the new Dredge primer in the German forum which is up to come, so I'd be fine with a more general primer here and everyone who actually understands German can look up that list in the German forum. Or Hollywood could link it/sum up the main elements of it in the new primer, I guess.

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Originally Posted by Hollywood

I messaged Di and let him know I have no problem working on a new primer for the forum.

EDIT: Approved.

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As soon as the new german primer exists I am willing to translate it and sent it to Hollywood, so he can edit that infos in the OP, or I can just post it in the thread if people want it.

I was looking to get into legacy and dredge seemed like a fun deck so I threw this list together and I was wondering what you guys think

Main Deck

1*Flame-Kin Zealot*
4*Golgari Grave-Troll*
4*Golgari Thug*
4*Ichorid*
4*Narcomoeba*
4*Putrid Imp*
4*Stinkweed Imp*
*
3*Breakthrough*
4*Bridge from Below*
4*Cabal Therapy*
3*Careful Study*
3*Dread Return*
4*Faithless Looting*
*
4*Cephalid Coliseum*
4*City of Brass*
1*Darkslick Shores*
4*Gemstone Mine*
1*Tarnished Citadel*
*
Sideboard
1*Ancestor's Chosen*
3*Ancient Grudge*
1*Angel of Despair*
2*Chain of Vapor*
1*Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite*
4*Firestorm*
3*Leyline of the Void*

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Originally Posted by Sammy

I was looking to get into legacy and dredge seemed like a fun deck so I threw this list together and I was wondering what you guys think

Main Deck

1*Flame-Kin Zealot*
4*Golgari Grave-Troll*
4*Golgari Thug*
4*Ichorid*
4*Narcomoeba*
4*Putrid Imp*
4*Stinkweed Imp*
*
3*Breakthrough*
4*Bridge from Below*
4*Cabal Therapy*
3*Careful Study*
3*Dread Return*
4*Faithless Looting*
*
4*Cephalid Coliseum*
4*City of Brass*
1*Darkslick Shores*
4*Gemstone Mine*
1*Tarnished Citadel*
*
Sideboard
1*Ancestor's Chosen*
3*Ancient Grudge*
1*Angel of Despair*
2*Chain of Vapor*
1*Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite*
4*Firestorm*
3*Leyline of the Void*

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Welcome to The Source :smile:

Here are a few notes that might help:

• You're going to have problems casting your sideboard cards by using Darkslick Shores, so I would suggest using Tarnished Citadel in its place.
• I would cut the fourth Ichorid to add the fourth Careful Study, as you already have Dread Return as an additional win condition. It's also worth noting that you should max-out on Careful Study before running the full set of Faithless Looting, given the configuration of your mana base and the exclusion of LED from the list.
• I would cut the third Dread Return to add the fourth Breakthrough, as is doesn't seem like you're planning on chaining through DR targets anyway.
• As for the sideboard, that should really be based on what you expect to be going against, so it looks to me like you're preparing against aggro decks.

You may want to refer to the LEDless lists that have had success in the past, as your build is essentially a copy of those lists, with Faithless Looting taking the place of Tireless Tribe.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

Primer is coming along.

Did some testing. Dredge was never able to win a post-board game against UW without LED. Usually, even if it didn't resolve, it did enough to still get the win.