Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Even though I absolutely hate the design of the card, I'm pretty sure that True-Name Nemesis is a positive meta change for us.
Also, like ivanpei said, don't play Thassa. At best it's a non-evasive 5/5 if you are already winning. More likely is that you get embarrassingly 2-for-1'd when they REB your Jace and proceed to ignore your 3 mana, legendary, do-nothing enchantment. Meanwhile you are wishing that Thassa could have been basically any other blue card and perhaps your Jace would still be alive (Discombobulate I'm looking at you).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
I see this come up a lot, and I still disagree. The general plan postboard vs combo should be to get more aggressive / fishy (clique, meddling mage, etc) and to board out slower / dead cards. I've played agiainst a lot of good SnS players and played the matchup from the other side and still think it is in Miracles favor, maybe 65-35.
I'm not sure what exactly I'm doing differently if anything, but the consensus here in Atlanta is definitely in Miracles' favor for whatever that's worth.
Then something is up with the understanding of Legacy Magic players in Atlanta.
I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Then something is up with the understanding of Legacy Magic players in Atlanta.
I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.
No one is making you repeating (sic!) yourself, that's your choice entirely. I'd agree that game one is very much in favor of Team Sneaky, but it will depend on build etc. If the Miracles players maindeck things like Humility or even just Pithing Needle, that could change things quite a bit. Also, the Sneak and Show player likely has to dig for a Sneak Attack in this matchup, which can sometimes take a while. Postboard, you say that they get to sideboard out their dead cards, which ones would that be? They will likely have to play with a diluted deck to fit in answers to various hate cards, while Team Miracles get to upgrade to said hate cards.
Slightly off topic, but: It is often the case when arguing magic (and many other things) that one argument does not strictly logically refute another, even though you might believe that the first argument is stronger. In that case, it is a good idea not to get too agitated about your position. Remember, we are all in it for fun (I hope).
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.
You are looking at it the wrong way. Game one always favors the combo deck, simply because you don't know they are a combo deck. Games 2 and 3 should favor you because post-board you've cut ~8 or so dead cards and added in a bunch of very efficient counter magic and hate bears. Basically every non-land card is great post-board. Cards like Pithing Needle and Humility are nearly unbeatable for Sneak and Show. If you somehow happened to beat them game one then they are fighting a massively uphill battle for the next two.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
You are looking at it the wrong way. Game one always favors the combo deck, simply because you don't know they are a combo deck. Games 2 and 3 should favor you because post-board you've cut ~8 or so dead cards and added in a bunch of very efficient counter magic and hate bears. Basically every non-land card is great post-board. Cards like Pithing Needle and Humility are nearly unbeatable for Sneak and Show. If you somehow happened to beat them game one then they are fighting a massively uphill battle for the next two.
How am I looking at it the wrong way when you already agree with me in that game 1 favors the combo deck? Think about what you are saying, are you praying that Sneak and Show will somehow just play bad or keep a horrible opening hand game 1? Aren't you already praying for that in every round?
The "every non-land card is great post-board" assessment is simply not true: Jace is simply a FoW pitcher in your opening hand. Because Needle and Humility are such obvious SB choices, naturally Sneak and Show has SB answers for them.
You can have all the SB hates you want against Sneak and Show; fundamentally, it's Miracle's lack of pressure to allow Sneak and Show to dig for answers and assemble that one explosive, resource abundant, duplicate combo pieces, well-protected turn, starting from EOT Wipe Away.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
How am I looking at it the wrong way when you already agree with me in that game 1 favors the combo deck?
Game two and three are so much in our favor that Sneak and Show basically must win game one in order to have even a chance. Even if they win game one, their average post-board hands are much worse than ours. In other words, they have to have the nuts to beat our average post-board draws.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
The "every non-land card is great post-board" assessment is simply not true: Jace is simply a FoW pitcher in your opening hand.
Jace is always bad until you can cast him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Because Needle and Humility are such obvious SB choices, naturally Sneak and Show has SB answers for them.
If you will kindly look here, you will notice that Sneak and Show generally runs between zero and one main deck answers to permanents (Repeal) and zero to two sideboarded answers (some combination of Echoing Truth, Repeal, or occasionally one Wipe Away). With the average being somewhere between zero and one, they are actually quite cold to permanent-based hate. Echoing Truth and Repeal can both be easily countered and Wipe Away is stopped by leaving a 3 cmc on top with Counterbalance (which also stops SNT).
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
You can have all the SB hates you want against Sneak and Show; fundamentally, it's Miracle's lack of pressure to allow Sneak and Show to dig for answers and assemble that one explosive, resource abundant, duplicate combo pieces, well-protected turn, starting from EOT Wipe Away.
Fundamentally, Sneak and Show cannot cast the majority of their deck if you have Counterbalance/Top out while floating a 4cmc and 3cmc. Again, Wipe Away does nothing when you leave your 3cmc on top at your EoT. Through the Breach is their best way around Pithing Needle and Counterbalance, but should they resolve it, they can still lose to your Clique, Venser, or Karakas.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
'Nilla Pac
I wouldn't take anything twndumn has to say too seriously. Everyone on this site is in his head and he's mad about it.
Speak for yourself. I don't see how your comments like this are related to Miracle, or Magic for that matter. You should look into the mirror before you point your fingers at others.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
Game two and three are so much in our favor that Sneak and Show basically must win game one in order to have even a chance. Even if they win game one, their average post-board hands are much worse than ours. In other words, they have to have the nuts to beat our average post-board draws.
Jace is always bad until you can cast him.
you will notice that Sneak and Show generally runs between zero and one main deck answers to permanents (Repeal) and zero to two sideboarded answers (some combination of Echoing Truth, Repeal, or occasionally one Wipe Away). With the average being somewhere between zero and one, they are actually quite cold to permanent-based hate. Echoing Truth and Repeal can both be easily countered and Wipe Away is stopped by leaving a 3 cmc on top with Counterbalance (which also stops SNT).
Fundamentally, Sneak and Show cannot cast the majority of their deck if you have Counterbalance/Top out while floating a 4cmc and 3cmc. Again, Wipe Away does nothing when you leave your 3cmc on top at your EoT. Through the Breach is their best way around Pithing Needle and Counterbalance, but should they resolve it, they can still lose to your Clique, Venser, or Karakas.
There're no statistical evidences suggesting that their post-board hands are worse than ours. I can argue that our post-board hands are only about as equal as theirs and my argument is as valid as yours.
Jace is not only always bad until you can cast him. Even if you have 4 Mana source, are you actually going to tap out against Sneak and Show to play it just because you can? If you manage to survive to the point where you have more than 4 Mana source, you probably pitched Jace to FoW already. The best purpose of Jace might end up being floated for CB, an almost dead card in our hand. Therefore, it's fair for me to conclude that you actually agree with: Not every non-land card is great post-board in Miracle.
Floating 4 cmc and 3 cmc with a resolved CB-T is obvious, who on this thread isn't aware of that? In case you haven't noticed, the problem is how do we get there. Yes, needle and maybe meddling mage could help, but I'm still not certain at times.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Floating 4 cmc and 3 cmc with a resolved CB-T is obvious, who on this thread isn't aware of that? In case you haven't noticed, the problem is how do we get there. Yes, needle and maybe meddling mage could help, but I'm still not certain at times.
I feel like alphastryk and I have both given some pretty solid advise for the Sneak and Show matchup; maybe it'd just be easier to discuss actual games that you've played against SNT and what you might try differently.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Is there a base list for helm+ RIP? Thank you just started to figure out what it's left for me to get
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DDS5
Is there a base list for helm+ RIP? Thank you just started to figure out what it's left for me to get
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I'm pretty sure Caleb durward has a list for miracle helm combo. You could try looking into that and make some updates to fit your meta
Found the article . It has everything you need to know about miraces and has a couple of lists plus rip helm combo.
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...es-Primer.html
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Thank you Deadpool9
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
Then something is up with the understanding of Legacy Magic players in Atlanta.
I don't see why you are making me repeating myself. You are at a massive disadvantage game 1, your StP and other creature removals are close to dead cards. Without any pressure game 1, they'll just sculpt their hand, win the counter war, and most likely the game. Since you're already down 1 game, they now have 2 shots to get an explosive hand game 2 or 3, since they now SB out more of their dead cards and SB in more counters like misdirection; or you might get a weak/mana screwed hand in the next 1 or 2 games, and that's the match.
Your mistake is letting them sculpt their hand. Counter cantrips, especially with cards like pierce that get weaker over time.They are better at a single turn counter war - don't let the game get to that state, and play permanent-based hate to make it harder for them to answer your answers. Your deck should also be all gas after game 1, whereas sneak has to dilute their game plan to answer your hate cards. It's very rare that they should ever win game 2 or 3. Don't keep hands with bad mana, and it's pretty impossible to keep a weak hand. Board out all of your wraths, they are awful. If they made a man, you lost. entreat / jace are the only weaker cards to open on, and you can mulligan / brainstorm. Sneak is slow, you have time to sculpt too.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Agreed to not allowing them to sculpt there hand. but I have lost to it 3 out of the 4 times I have played it. ( qualifing statement I have been playing the deck for 2 days)
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Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Your mistake is letting them sculpt their hand. Counter cantrips, especially with cards like pierce that get weaker over time.
Easy for you to say. Your hand doesn't always give you the luxury to counter cantrips. Do you intend to spend counters on their 4 Ponders + 4 Brainstorms such that you have no more counters left for the actual combo? Not to mention some builds even run Gitaxian Probe. Sometimes they are just cantriping for the fatty and extra counters, they have the combo pieces already, multiple even. It's actually Not just about the one turn counter war, it's a real possibility that they have multiple Show and Tell, or multiple Sneak Attack. Sure you can win 1 counter war, how about the next combo piece? That deck wins SCG titles and Top8s for good reasons, resiliency is one of them. For you to state the obvious, it's almost as if you are dissing on all the pros.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Hate to be that guy, but I'm actually with twmdomn on this one, as I've battled my fair share against SnT in tournament environments... and it's a tough MU, period.
While you guys are right about the fact that it does get better G2/3 since we're actually able to board out most of our dead cards. Obviously SnT too brings in some combination of REB, Fluster Storm and Swan Song, aka stuff we don't like to run into when facing Oops I Win decks.
You are also right about CB Top being key for taking them down. However, with all their cantrips SnT is by far better at assemling two card combos, plus while their two cards are "gg" 90% of the time, when resolved, CB Top is just a means to enhance our showdown counter war.
Bottom line being - don't make the mistake to take this MU lightly. Imo it's about 40-45% pre-, and 50-55% post board, and thus a slightly unfavorable MU.
EDIT: excerpt from the new SnT primer, which is a spot on MU evaluation from the other side of the table:
UWr Miracles 55:45
An annoying, but overall positive matchup. They have a lot of hate and games get really grindy once they have their countertop engine online. The big upside however is that they present absolutely no clock, which gives you all the time you need to sculpt the perfect hand. Still, the best-case scenario is an explosive
start with an early Sneak Attack, because later it can get difficult if they have a 3- and a 4-drop on top of their deck alongside Countertop.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
klaus
Bottom line being - don't make the mistake to take this MU lightly. Imo it's about 40-45% pre-, and 50-55% post board, and thus a slightly unfavorable MU.
I definitely wouldn't take the MU lightly, but then again, it's hard to take any MU lightly as even slight misplays can easily cost Miracles the game. Sneak Attack is one of the easier matchups in my experience, and if you or twndomn wants to share any games or preferably videos of you playing against Sneak Attack then it'd be easier to evaluate. There are a lot of intricacies in the MU, but once you understand them it isn't too bad.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
I definitely wouldn't take the MU lightly, but then again, it's hard to take any MU lightly as even slight misplays can easily cost Miracles the game. Sneak Attack is one of the easier matchups in my experience, and if you or twndomn wants to share any games or preferably videos of you playing against Sneak Attack then it'd be easier to evaluate. There are a lot of intricacies in the MU, but once you understand them it isn't too bad.
I don't have to, personally, you can easily find the best doing the work. Again, for the n-th time, I respectfully disagree.
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/476320410?t=10h56m30s
Quote:
Originally Posted by
alphastryk
Board out all of your wraths, they are awful. If they made a man, you lost. entreat / jace are the only weaker cards to open on, and you can mulligan / brainstorm. Sneak is slow, you have time to sculpt too.
I strongly disagree with that assessment. Depending on your build, if you have 1 Supreme Verdict MD, you might want to consider leaving it in. Your 4 CMC are: 3 Jaces and at least 1 Venser, then it's up to your build, maybe +1 Supreme Verdict, maybe +1 for 2nd Venser. You need some amount of 4 CMC, Verdict is one of them.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
twndomn
I think we discussed this earlier in the thread, but I'm fairly certain that Joe missed the Terminus here when he blind flipped Top. Either way, Game 1 against Sneak and Show is very difficult and Joe got really close off a pretty weak hand.
Game 2 he won with a really strange hand off one Mystic Gate.
Game 3 he mulls yet another mono Mystic Gate hand and still manages to win. Although at 11:33 I think I like trying the Spell Pierce instead of the Force of Will. He probably just pays with the two Lotus Petals and Sneak Attack resolves. On your turn, you can just drop Pithing Needle and move on with life.
However, if he is holding FoW/Misdirection, Blue spell, and fatty then you can still FoW pitching Misdirection. If he is holding a third Lotus Petal + fatty and tries to Sneak it in then you can bounce it with Karakas. If he tries to Pierce your Pierce (potentially holding Petal and fatty) then you can still FoW the Sneak Attack. The point of all this being that the Pierce isn't getting a lot better and you are holding Pithing Needle. You don't care if Sneak Attack resolves so much as long as he can't use it. I think it's better to save your FoW as a last resort.
Either way, I don't see your point... This video seems to agree with alphastryk and I that Miracles is unfavored game one, but with good mulligans and tight play seems very favored games two and three.
Re: [DTB] Miracle Control
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Dzra
Either way, I don't see your point... This video seems to agree with alphastryk and I that Miracles is unfavored game one, but with good mulligans and tight play seems very favored games two and three.
If your list is a straight carbon copy of Joe's list, with Flusterstorm, Misdirection, Swan Song (his later version), and 2 Karakas in your 75, then yes, you should have your wall of counters no doubt. However, not All Miracle lists are equal. Your overstatements pretty much assume every Miracle build is Joe's 75 and every person would play as tight as Joe, which is Delusional on your part. Furthermore, the Sneak and Show in game 2 and game 3 did not have the explosive starts whatsoever, one might even argue that player did not SB correctly, only he would know his SB choices of course. Not to mention what the commentators have said, with the risk Joe took; to be specific, the game would be a lot different, if Show and Tell causes Venser and Sneak Attack/Griselbrand to appear. Simply put, when stars align and broken clocks become correct, your assessment on the match-up would be what SCG clip has captured here.
