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S.Titan is strong vs Delver. It can cut them completely out of the game and the body is to much to handle. Obviously BUG with Liliana is interesting here.Quote:
Originally Posted by akatsuki
I wouldn't cut Forgemaster nr 4. You want as much consistency as possible.
as Stuart say, maybe there is too much wastelands on your meta. Try reducing your curve, mainboarding crucible of worlds + 4 wastelands or switch to a more combo-oriented build.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnagno
Actually this is the list I'm playing and I found myself able to fight almost every MU, they are not all easy but at least I don't have an autoloss from any common played strategy.
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mishra's Factory
2 City of Traitors
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Grim Monolith
1 Lightning Greaves
3 Trinisphere
1 Staff of Domination
1 Spine of Ish Sah
3 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Metalworker
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Stell Hellkite
4 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
3 Warping Wail
SB
3 Maze of Ith
2 Grafdigger's cage
2 Spatial Contortion
3 Faerie Macabre
1 Duplicant
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Sundering Titan
I don't play the classical fatties even if I run kuldotha to keep my manabase as thin as possible.
Kuldotha is there because it fills the curve and gives you good tricks if your opponent lets you untap it.
As I wrote some posts before, when I'm able to activate kuldotha I search wurmocoil against Delver/ BG decks, Sundering against Miracles/ controls and against combo it may vary from lodestone to sundering to spine depending on the development of the board and the MU. I almost never wanted to put blightsteel into play because many deck have answers to it (liliana, swords to plowshares, simply comboing you) and if you are low to life, which happens quite often, they attack, then chump block with a a X/2 and then kill you with a final attack, so I cut it for the third warping wail.
I don't like crucible because when you face wasteland you face most of the time deathrite shaman too and it exiles all the lands you lost due to wastelands.
I like how low to the ground you are with this build, but I would want the 4th Mishra's Factory, probably instead of the 4th Cavern.
Even if the strenght of mishra's factory grows the more copies you run, I still rather the fourth cavern.Quote:
Originally Posted by keys
Cavern is the best way to evade counters and I want to see it the most possible times I can, even because there are 3-4 calls for it.
Mishras fills the 3 meta-slots lands: you may play wasteland, or crystal vein, or buried ruins or whichever you want depending what seems most useful to you.
Happening very rarely to wasteland someone because you're mana hungrier than opponents, being a biter, sacrificing for liliana and kuldotha mishra won the slots.
Lands and infect are the only MU I like wasteland, but since I added maze of ith I found infect MU playable even without wasteland (I dislike using percentages, let's say we have our tools and he has his tools), and against lands I simply drop hope and sign 0-2 :laugh:
So after two more weeks of testing of Legend MUD on Cockatrice, here my latest list and considerations.
Legend MUD
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
3 Eldrazi Temple
1 Eye of Ugin
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
3 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
3 Thran Dynamo
2 Hedron Archive
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Coercive Portal
1 Staff of Nin
3 Voltaic Key
3 Warping Wail
Sideboard:
4 Phyrexian Revoker
3 Trinisphere
2 Tormod's Crypt
2 Faerie Macabre
2 Spatial Contortion
2 Ensnaring Bridge
Not that many changes from the previous list for main, but important changes on the sideboard.
Main
-1 City of Traitors + 1 Eldrazi Temple. Good change, for a short time i tryed Cavern of Souls here, but the big advantage of our eldrazi creatures is that they are useful even if countered, so the cavern wasn't adding anything; better to maximize the mana to cast them fast, even if i don't think there is space for the 4° Temple.
-1 Basalt Monolith +1 Voltaic Key. Still testing this change so not sure about it, what i'm sure about is that 2x Keys are absolutely necessary, the mana rocks works much better with key in play, and the interaction with Chalice of the Void happens way less that one may thing, most of all because chalice will be countered most of the time. The pros of playing key are much more than the cons of playing it together with chalice.
-Swap of Trinisphere and Warping Wail from main/side. I found that i like more the versatility of Wail maindeck compared to Trinisphere, but this may change with the meta you play of course.
Side
4 Slots against graveyard decks like Reanimator, Dredge and so on, this is the minimum i think, i tryed with more but needed space for something else.
2 Spatial Contortion. This deck get hosed BADLY by Gaddock Teeg and Delver of Secret beatdown, so we need an answer for them. Just Warping Wail for Delver is not enought, most of the time if they play Delver turn 1 they will ride it to the victory countering everything you play, so we need a cheap removal that's always useful. Notable targets are also Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Deathrite Shaman and Dark Confidant that Weil answer already.
2 Ensnaring Bridge. This is for Sneak and Show, Marit Lage and drum roll Eldrazi!! i played against them sometimes and their beatdown is really fast for the deck, and Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is useless so you cannot reset at turn 4/5. This is another card against Reanimator too. I'm open for other suggestions for this slot. Probably Karakas could be good here too, and the original list on TC Decks was playing 3x of it main if remember correctly. The problem is that it does nothing against Eldrazi, but maybe i'm too much worried about that deck.
All in all i keep liking the deck more than the previous Metalworker/Kuldotha Forgemaster version, mostly because i have no creatures to kill and that's a vulnerable angle in less.
This version is maybe less explosive (even if, without them attacking your mana, you will cast Karn/Ugin/Ulamog at turn 3-4-5 almost every game) but more consistent and less vulnerable.
MVP is of course Coercive Portal, if they let it survive it will win the game by itself.
Have you ever tried crumbling sanctuary? I think it could be good in this version of MUD because you make 5 mana really fast.
Aggro decks need to deal arond 35-40 more damages while with ulamog's ability you will attack for 30!
Thoughts on the price spikes for grim monolith and city of traitors? They're at 45 and 85 respectively, I am wondering if they'll return to their original prices, they're the last two playsets I am missing !!!
I don't think they'll go down since they're both on the Reserve ListQuote:
Originally Posted by Badwise
They're only two of the most important cards in any MUD-style deck. You kinda shoulda had playsets of Cities/Monoliths for as long as you've been playing Legacy, tbh.
Sorry to hear, Badwise. I hate this hobby sometimes. My suggestion is to buy the cards now because it will only get more expensive.
I think that there is potential for the cards to go down in value again, but if they do I don't that they will by much. Since they are both on the reserved list there will never be another printing of them in any capacity. Also that City is used in several other non MUD decks that wax and wane in popularity (ie: Sneak and Show) that they should be the primary of targets of your remaining playsets. I love the game, but sometimes it hits the wallet a little hard.
Any of you not buying the reserved list cards for a given deck first are just asking to get destroyed.
http://magiccards.info/query?q=%28t%3A%22artifact%22+or+t%3A%22land%22%29+f%3Alegacy+is%3Areserved&v=olist&s=cname
all reserved list artifacts and land that are legacy legal.
Hey, Infect player here looking for another deck to change things up. I really dig the idea of Legend MUD, and have proxied something that's between the mtgtop8 list and MGB's list in order to figure out if I want to invest in it. Anyway, I was wondering if anyone could give me sideboarding advice. I know it would be a lot of work to give me a sideboard plan for all the tier 1 decks, but any advice would be greatly appreciated (even if it's super generalized, like "against Delver decks I tend to take out...").
Edit: sorry, that was pretty nebulous. This is the list:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Karakas
3 Vesuva
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Ulamog, the Ceaseless Hunger
2 Kozilek, the Great Distortion
3 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
3 Karn Liberated
4 Basalt Monolith
4 Grim Monolith
1 Hedron Archive
4 Thran Dynamo
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Trinisphere
4 Coercive Portal
2 Voltaic Key
SB:
4 Lodestone Golem
4 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
1 Duplicant
So in my experience, the list is basically designed to crush Miracles and most other fair decks MD. So essentially your sideboard is designed to shore up the unfair match-ups. Golem+Revoker and any additional Trinispheres or Thorn of Amethysts obviously come in vs. Storm and Elves and the like. I usually take out some of the mana rocks and maybe an Eldrazi or two and a Karn. You don't want to cut out all of your top-end because then you end up drawing too few threats to seal the deal.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
Crypt needs little explanation - you bring it in vs Dredge and Reanimator and probably Lands as well, although it might not do enough in that matchup.
I personally have had some success playing Tsabo's Web in my MUD sideboards. It's excellent vs. Lands and Death n Taxes, and it cantrips so it's actually never really dead any time you board it in. Because Port+Wasteland decks like Lands and Death n Taxes are the natural enemy of this type of deck, I'd highly recommend trying out Web as an answer.
Thank you for the timely response! That makes a lot of sense. I think I'll stick with your amethyst plan instead of bridges, then. Any advice on deciding which mana rocks to take out? Like maybe against unfair decks that are trying to combo quickly maybe the Thran Dynamos are too slow? Also, thanks for posting your list here, dude. I think I'm going to have a lot of fun with this deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I just like an extra 2 Thorns in the SB because it really seals the deal vs. Storm combo. I just hate losing to Storm, but Thorns *might* be overkill. I could still see playing Ensnaring Bridges if you have alot of Sneak'n'Show you expect to face, or this new Eldrazi Stompy deck becomes a big thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
I don't have nearly enough play-testing time put in with this version to definitively state things about the sideboarding strategy or specific inclusions, to be honest. I just think that a general plan of "bring in a bunch of hate for the unfair stuff that doesn't scoop to Ugin/Karn/Eldrazi G1" seems like the right way to go, but beyond that we have to put more testing in with the list to truly determine what the proper build is.
I mean, really, in MUD, there are like a good 30+ cards you could realistically consider for the SB depending on what you plan to see alot of or what gives you the most trouble. Heck, this deck might even benefit from some kind of transformational Eldrazi SB with Thought-Knot Seers and beatdown, who knows?
Yeah, I'm definitely going to have to spend some time adjusting the SB to my meta. I finally got to test this deck out last night, and I gotta say...it's awesome! I already started ordering some of the pieces, lol. I played quite a few matches against Shardless, and I feel like the match-up is pretty even. Early discard combined with Liliana and/or Jace and Wasteland (although they only have 2) is still very lame, but Coercive Portal is absolutely bonkers at helping make comebacks from stunted beginnings. I still hate losing to variance, but it makes appreciate when I do drop the fatties and obliterate face even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
On another note, how do you think this deck will fare if there's a surge of Eldrazi Aggro decks in my meta? I assume we should be favored because we can drop bombs consistently, but I can see us losing to explosive starts with the opponent OTP, like I've seen on YouTube....
Eldrazi Aggro is a problem for this deck. Big problem. Eldrazi Aggro isn't affected by Chalice/Trinisphere much if at all; they apply quick pressure out of the gates; they often play Wasteland; and their Thought-Knot Seer is highly disruptive.Quote:
Originally Posted by battousai555
Honestly, I was hoping the Eldrazi deck wouldn't gain traction in Legacy because I felt that this Legend MUD list had such good game against the rest of the field, but if we expect to see alot of Eldrazi Aggro in Legacy now, Legend MUD will have to be re-configured.
Here's my thought: Ensnaring Bridge 2x MD and 2x SB. Eldrazi Aggro can't beat a resolved Ensnaring Bridge, and Bridge is randomly good against lots of other decks as well. Playing 2/2 Bridge split should basically make Sneak'n'Show a bye, and it will help fight troublesome matchups like Elves. And it's not even dead against Miracles - it can stop the Entreat kill condition and sometimes even Mentor!
Bridge is actually the perfect control card for this deck because this deck is fundamentally a control deck. Unlike traditional Metalworker MUD, it's not trying to win by attacking with its own creatures - its building inevitability with its planeswalkers and legendary creature ETB effects. With Bridge in play, you don't really care necessarily if you can't attack with Ulamog and/or Kozilek as long as you can eventually destroy their board by recurring Ulamog or dropping Ugins and Karns.
The only question now is what to take out for the Bridges. My first thought is -1 Hedron Archive and -1 Kozilek, +2 Ensnaring Bridge in MD, and -2 Thorn of Amethyst, +2 Ensnaring Bridge in SB.
Ensnaring Bridge is one of the best cards against MUD.