[Primer/Deck] Nic Fit

abbyssal persecutor and mystic enforcer both bring more to the table at cmc4 then spirit monger does at 5. Baneslayer worries me in an eldrazi winter considering there will likely be an uptick in the number of dismembers. my initial white list in response to a meta shift is as follows its siting at 60 currently with the 61st card undetermined:

4 vet
1 deathrite
1 scooze
1 witness
1 nissa
2 siege rhino
3 abby
1 sigarda
1 tusk

3 zenith
2 top
2 intent
1 nightmare

4 therapy
3 decay
3 deed
3 lilly
3 innocent blood

21 lands
3 bayou
1 scrub
1 savanna
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant
4 windswept
2 phyrexian tower

Quote:

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Originally Posted by unclegitty

this is the jund list im going to be working on…..

...
4 abby
...
3 lilly
3 innocent blood
…

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@unclegitty: have you had any success with this list? Do Lilly and Innocent Blood make up for the loss of PtE? Any issues with 4x Abby? I'm leaning towards 3x Abby and a Spiritmonger (nostalgia, as previously mentioned!)

Reason I ask is that I'm favoring jund nic-fit because of my blue-dominated LGS. That means I lose Sigarda and Rhinos (boo) but I gain REBs/Pyros (hoo-yah). I even main-deck 2 Pyroblasts in my Punishing Jund deck… "judge! deck-check!"... with an extra 2 in SB.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts.

this is just the starting point the corresponding red version is on the previous page. Id be branching into red i have zero experience with jund outside of playing with the 4c version which is fundamentally junk. I cannot say for certain if there is actually any merit to either of them. They are just what i came up with after looking at the east coast f2f meta and attempted to answer as many of the quesions it was going to be asking. I will share some of my initial thoughts and concerns.

only 2 rhino?- he's not winning the ground war anymore and the creatures outclassing him arent answered by 2/3 of our removal. having atleast one still gives us some reach and two feels correct to maximize availability and nightmare loops.

no meren/no arbor? I dont feel like things are shaping up to have the time for this I'd strictly rather have another abby or rhino in every match other then shardless. arbor is a little more complex and a frontrunner for the 61st card.

gsz #4? the second place candidate for the 61st card. cuts had to be made to fit intents in to reach the critical mass of sac outlets i wanted for abby and they fill similar roles.

no path? another concession to sac outlets yeilds 3 innocent bloods to answer big fat fatties. some part of me want to split this up between deluge, pulse, or path i just cant say yet.

2 tops? I hate the idea of this entirely but sacrifices must be made...literally

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Originally Posted by uncletiggy

f2f

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f2f? The store?

face to face in person. online meta is excluded entirely the card availability is different and thus deck distribution is different.

So you face stuff that's bigger than your Siege Rhinos and the solution is to dump PtE but keep in the ADs..? If you cast Innocent Blood whenever they have 2+ creatures on the board, that creature that beats your Rhino still will not leave the board, leaving you with the same problem that you had before.

Also, when going for symmetrical sac effects Dryad Arbor gains a heap of value and when facing stuff that's bigger than yours, AD definitely loses (a lot of) value (whereas PtE remains relevant).

When looking at your list, I'd shape it as following (changes in bold):
4 vet
1 deathrite
1 scooze
0 witness (this build seemingly doesn't really plan on abusing the GY)
1 Courser of Kruphix (what do you need the mana for. CA & uber-topdecks is what you need)
2 siege rhino
3 abby
1 sigarda
1 Spiritmonger (at least wins ground wars)

4 zenith (MOAR Rhino and everything else!)
2 top
2 intent
1 Dryad Arbor (Again, I don't see this list doing graveyard trickery. And if so, you're better off with Meren as she gives you CA instead of being card neutral and useless on an empty board)

4 therapy
3 PtE (I'd run 4, but let's not make this a me-list)
3 deed
3 lilly
3 innocent blood

21 lands
3 bayou
1 scrub
1 savanna
3 forest
2 swamp
1 plains
4 verdant
4 windswept
2 phyrexian tower

You also might want to work on the manabase a little. You could go up to 10 fetches, to improve Courser a little further. Also, when going so deep on black cards, you might want to go to 2 Forest, 2 Swamp instead of 3/1.

@TTX, concerning Loxodon Hierarch: It costs Siege Rhino mana and would take a Siege Rhino slot. No. If I were to run something similar to that, I'd run Daunting Defender. Costs a mana less to drop on the field and the ability is free. Yes, it does not gain life, I don't care. We already have enough of that.

I like the spiritmonger hype so much. He is probably worse than other choices, but that nostalgia man. I'm definitely gonna test with it.

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

I like the spiritmonger hype so much. He is probably worse than other choices, but that nostalgia man. I'm definitely gonna test with it.

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Well, you know, Dragonlord Dromoka is considered unnecessary. So that does leave us with 1 slot for another big and dumb creature and Spiritmonger does give you quite some bang for your buck.

Arbor Colossus, Meandering Towershell and Spectral Force might be worth looking into as well. Can all block like a boss. Colossus can even snag flyers out of the air. The Towershell and Force might suck at attacking, but there's probably little that gets by them.

In junk I think we want to stomp the ground with rhinos, while flying over goyfs with angels (our big guys), but spiritmonger triggers some sweet nostalgia. Grave titan is a stronger ground pounder than him, but can't be tutored for. Maybe the tutorability is what gives SM the edge vs BSA or titans? We will see

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rubblekill

In junk I think we want to stomp the ground with rhinos, while flying over goyfs with angels (our big guys), but spiritmonger triggers some sweet nostalgia. Grave titan is a stronger ground pounder than him, but can't be tutored for. Maybe the tutorability is what gives SM the edge vs BSA or titans? We will see

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Tutorability means you're more likely to get it when you need it. Consistency wins more games than randomly drawing into that singleton blowout card when that one time it's opportune. Sure Grave Titan is a powerful bastard, but how much power does one really need? At some point you pass a tres-hold (why the fuck is this censored where fuck itself isn't censored cunt fuck shit) where everything as powerful as that or more powerful is enough to win you a game.

My only dilemma is to choose between him and tusk. Tusk is only better against miracles

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Originally Posted by Echelon

Tutorability means you're more likely to get it when you need it. Consistency wins more games than randomly drawing into that singleton blowout card when that one time it's opportune. Sure Grave Titan is a powerful bastard, but how much power does one really need? At some point you pass a tres-hold (why the fuck is this censored where fuck itself isn't censored cunt fuck shit) where everything as powerful as that or more powerful is enough to win you a game.

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It's because of 2006. That's why. Every deck was some variant of that.

I do really love Baneslayer, but not being able to tutor is rough. Mystic Enforcer is spicy, but again, relies in the yard. 6/6 that grows does get chumped, but we're also playing 3-5 sweepers. Those other suggestions are also possible, but are more green intensive.

As for Jund, I had a list kicking around somewhere.

4 Veteran
2 DRS
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scooze
1 Huntmaster of the Fells
1 Meren
1 Thragtusk
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Stormbreath Dragon
14

3 Top
4 GSZ
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Painful Truths
13

2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Punishing Fires
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Pernicious Deed
12

3 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Badlands
3 Forest
2 Swamp
1 Mountain
4 Wooded Foothills
2 Phyrexian Tower
2 Bloodstained Mire
22

Sideboard of choice.

So... I was thinking... Nic Fit meets Heartless Summoning..? Consider it, into Conduit of Ruin into some Kozilek, Butcher of Truth or something along those lines.

I just love the idea of going T1 Veteran Explorer, T2 Culling the Weak, Heartless Summoning, Conduit of Ruin to T3 Elesh Norn (which would then cost 1WW). It isn't realistic, I know, but sometimes it's fun to think about it.

I might be crazy.

What do you guys think of Chandra, Flamecaller as a single endgame drop in Jund / Punishing lists? Her 0 has synergy with Punishing Fire, she is a fast clock for ending the game with, and her -X is a reasonable sweeper against most lists (maybe not as good as Deluge, but considering Pyroclasm is enough in a lot of situations, might be fine anyway. Non-Scape Jund lists have generally had trouble ending the game, and Chandra looks more effective than, for example, Inferno Titan, and might be better / comparable to Stormbreath Dragon.

When I played the punishing fire version I ran a Garruk for a while but dropped it after a while. Any 5/6 drop that isnt tutorable isnt worth playing in that deck. The punishing fire deck is a hard control deck. You dont need another 6 mana card that will get stuck in your hand. Run a prime time, a Thragtusk, huntmaster, thrun and that will be fine. You can play the 2 tower combo or go and get a kessig to turn each creature into a fireball on a stick.

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Originally Posted by Tom4ik

the 2 tower combo or go and get a kessig to turn each creature into a fireball on a stick.

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@Tom4ik: for the uninitiated, what's the '2 tower combo'?

Phyrexian tower
Volrath's stronghold.

One allows you to sac a creature for 2 mana which lines up perfectly with stronghold which lets you put a creature from the graveyard to the top of your library. With those to lands you can draw a witness or a thragtusk every turn which 'should' grind out most decks that you play against.

Some more nostalgia on the Rock's: Spiritmonger. Some decktech from i think 2008. It was fun to read.

Read 1


@ matt, i have said it before, but running SBD means you want to 2 basic Mountains so you never get stuck on a Veteran Explorer not being able to actually cast the SBD. I am going back to full green since i like Spiritmonger as an option aswell.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Some more nostalgia on the Rock's: Spiritmonger. Some decktech from i think 2008. It was fun to read.

Read 1


@ matt, i have said it before, but running SBD means you want to 2 basic Mountains so you never get stuck on a Veteran Explorer not being able to actually cast the SBD. I am going back to full green since i like Spiritmonger as an option aswell.

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I have just played 2 matches in a row against the colorless eldrazi build. I have won one of them thanks to the Spiritmonger (smasher just stayed untapped and never attacked), the other one thanks to 2 rhinos (G1) that stalled the board and stabilized my life total and to the 1 arbor that surprise-blocked the smasher together with 1 rhino; in G2 3 explorers stalled the board and let me first pulse 3 mimics and the turn after deed@4 3 TKS (this let me draw 3 cards).
Maybe the opponent was unlucky, maybe he wasn't the strongest player (he could have started attacking a turn sooner with all those mimics), who knows; and I hate that eldrazi deck with a passion, but the matchup in all honesty is not THAT bad like some of you seem to think.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bobmans

Some more nostalgia on the Rock's: Spiritmonger. Some decktech from i think 2008. It was fun to read.

Read 1


@ matt, i have said it before, but running SBD means you want to 2 basic Mountains so you never get stuck on a Veteran Explorer not being able to actually cast the SBD. I am going back to full green since i like Spiritmonger as an option aswell.

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Fair, I was just thinking "something LIKE that" when I posted the list. :)

-Matt