LOL, nobody read the rules. Not even me. And I wrote them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
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LOL, nobody read the rules. Not even me. And I wrote them.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Oh yeah, that's smart. I'm not too careful when I feel defeated. Actually, now the race might be on. Hmm.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Shocker isn't "discard your hand". I draw Kozilek for turn, but on your second hit, I discard Kozilek and draw something else to replace it. Then I draw for my turn and have 2 cards in my hand and 2 in library, which means I can either start playing lands this turn or next turn. This one I thought about because Barbed Shocker was the only decklist I expected.Quote:
On the draw, you lose on my T10 by drawing Kozilek each turn: you control the shuffle trigger, so the order is the worse for you.
Yeah, you're missing that you can sack the 12/12 mimic to keep the Dreadnought around.Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
Arsonist Math
Tapped Hold; Swamp + Sniper
Dunes, H1; attack for 1.
make sniper 0/1, Bazaar, activate stacking triggers to kill sniper before the shuffle; draw Emrakul
H1; draw Sniper, cast Sniper
H2; attack for 1
H3; attack for 1
H4; attack for 1
H5; attack for 1
Arsonist targeting Bazaar, activate in response to shrink Arsonist, but Bazaar does not come back; attack for 1.
And you now kill in 10 turns, which is too fast for me. So I don't show my Bazaar and take the draw.
I'm playing Mimic T1, then dreadnought T1 too. Stack the triggers so that I Transform mimic into a 12/12 first and then sac it to dreadnought. I end up with a PERMANENT 12/12 and You never have a window to kill my 2/1.Quote:
Originally Posted by jhhdk
Ah, another reason I should have kept Fumespitter over Sniper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Well, the first rule of berserker club is to just go berserk and disregard any rules, so I think we all did quite well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
It's not Progenitus. It doesn't reshuffle between the discard and draw. Kozi will stack after the draw is done. By holding more than 1 card in hand it will eventually dig him past Kozilek to cast things.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
T1 - Shocker [18]. Discard hand and draw 0 cards.
Library = Kozilek, Sniper, Bazaar, Swamp
Draw Kozi. Go
T2 - Shocker [16]. Discard Kozi, draw 1 card = Sniper. Kozi reshuffles.
Library = Kozilek, Bazaar, Swamp
Draw Kozi. Go
T3 - Shocker [14]. Discard Kozi & Sniper, draw 2 cards = Bazaar + Swamp. Kozi reshuffles.
Library = Kozilek, Sniper
Draw Kozi. Play Swamp. Go
T4 - Shocker [12]. Discard Kozi & Bazaar, draw 1 card = Sniper. Kozi reshuffles.
Library = Kozilek, Bazaar
Draw Kozi. Play Sniper. Go
T5 Shocker [10]. Discard Kozi, draw 1 card = Bazaar. Kozi reshuffles
Library = Kozilek
Draw Kozi. Play Bazaar. Make Shocker 1/1. Sniper attacks
Library = Kozilek
T6 Shocker [9]. Discard 0, draw 0.
Draw Kozi. Make Shocker 0/0
It's slow but he eventually gets there by drawing more than 1 card each time, which forces him to eventually find lands.
Lol man do i feel dumb. I need to adjust my results.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Reading cards helps in figuring out results or so i've heard.
In my mind Dreadnaught was just "the thing you have to stiffle" to cheat it in.
With Tabernacle you can choose to not pay the upkeep, causing it to go to the bottom of library on upkeep and get redrawn that same turn. So it can loop as a creature every turn or as a spell every 2nd turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
Rider is a powerhouse in Limited and Standard just as a 2-for-1. It probably didn't show up on our 4CB before because it's from a recent set and we just played 24 weeks of Pauper and Peasant. I only noticed the interaction today when trying to find a win condition with Tabernacle + Maze.
That I did well. And all-in on one card, and did not bother to read this single card until the end...Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
I'll sure second that, with Maze of Ith.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
You mean that card doesn't just say "remove target attacker from combat"?
Right result for the wrong reason. Heavyweights can't block. Those pesky rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Silk's deck basically has "Tap both lands: Put a -1/-1 counter on target creature".
Bazaar will tap every turn to draw 0 and discard Kozilek, triggering Sniper and then reshuffling.
That will eventually kill most threats. But an 8/8 is big and races. Goblin Settler also steals a few turns of tempo by destroying a land.
That's fair. :smile:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wrath of Pie
By the way, we have different scores in our matches. Check my results post for details.
I may have forgotten about some things though, as I have several times already.
Heavyweights is too big for me to race on the play, and Goblin Settler makes me sad on the draw by not letting me cast a single spell, so you're right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Double checking to see if I can win if you hold Bazaar.Quote:
Originally Posted by silkster
s t1: swamp, sniper
a t1: Hold
s t2: attack (a: 19, s: 20)
a t2: Tabernacle, charge Hold (1)
s t3: attack (a:18, s: 20)
a t3: Dunes, charge Hold (2)
s t4: attack (a:17, s: 20)
a t4: charge Hold (3)
s t5: attack (a:16, s: 20)
a t5: charge Hold (4)
s t6: attack (a:15, s: 20)
a t6: cast Arsonist blowing up Swamp.
s t7: cannot pay for Tabernacle, Sniper dies. Bazaar is now safe so it gets played and activated, reshuffling Sniper, Swamp, and Kozilek.
a t7: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 17)
s t8: draw Kozilek
a t8: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 14)
s t9: draw Sniper
a t9: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 11)
s t10: draw Swamp, play Sniper.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 8)
s t11: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 6)
s t12: draw Kozilek. Use Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 4)
s t13: draw Kozilek
a t13: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 2)
s t14: draw Sniper, play Sniper
a t14: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 0)
if I did the math right, you can't hold Bazaar, as I win the race by blowing up the Swamp this way. You can gain a turn in there by holding Sniper early as well as Bazaar, but 1 turn isn't enough.
As silkster cannot win as long as you hold arsonist, he can as well hold everything as well, including swamp. He can also activate bazaar in his upkeep to draw Kozilek while reshuffling sniper. You just wait until turn 25 to supercharge hold, for it to always pay for tabernacle, then:Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
a: cast arsonist.
S: swamp, sniper
a: tabernacle, attack 17
S: pay for tabby, play bazaar.
a: pay, attack 14
S: tabby trigger, resp bazaar --> arsonist 2/2, sniper in gy, kozi in lib
a: pay, attack 12
S: activate bazaar in upkeep, draw kozilek and sniper is on the top of the library.
a: pay, attack 10
S: draw and play sniper
a: pay, attack 8
S: tabby trigger, resp bazaar --> arsonist 1/1
===> It is a draw as whoever plays something first looses.
OK, I definitely did fail to math the draws correctly, as the Tabernacle + Sniping etc happens in upkeep so Kozilek is immediately redrawn which changes the math.Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
Redoing that below:
...
a t6: cast Arsonist blowing up Swamp.
s t7: cannot pay for Tabernacle, Sniper dies. Bazaar is now safe so it gets played and activated, reshuffling Sniper, Swamp, and Kozilek. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t7: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 17)
s t8: draw Sniper
a t8: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 14)
s t9: draw Swamp, play Sniper
a t9: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 11)
s t10: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 9)
s t11: Draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 7)
s t12: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 6)
s t13: draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t13: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 5)
s t14: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (0/0). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
That actually seems to lead to a win for silkster by forcing me to take the initiative.
If instead of playing Arsonist or Tabernacle, I instead just use Hold and Dunes to shrink Sniper, then I think we end up back in the draw scenario.
Going to run through one last scenario just in case - silkster holds everything and I just jam a 3/3 as soon as I can to race.
...
a t6: play Arsonist, blowing up my own Hold as I no longer need it. I have Dunes to pay for Tabernacle when needed.
s t6: Play swamp, Sniper
a t7: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 20, s: 17)
s t7: pay for Tabernacle, play Bazaar, attack (a: 19, s: 17)
a t8: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 14)
s t8: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, activate Bazaar and Snipe Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles and is drawn for the turn.
a t9: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 12)
s t9: upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 10)
s t10: draw Sniper, play Sniper
a t11: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 8)
s t11: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, activate Bazaar and Snipe Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles and is drawn for the turn.
a t12: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 7)
s t12: upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t13: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 6)
s t13: draw Sniper, play Sniper
a t14: pay for Tabernacle, attack (a: 19, s: 5)
s t14: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, activate Bazaar and Snipe Arsonist (0/0).
A draw it is! updating original results.
Shouldn't work that way :)Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
But the draw is there, as you cannot cast anything if silk doesn't play a land.
Right, I'm forgetting the turn of "Upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper" in between. Redoing that (again) below:Quote:
Originally Posted by dte
...
a t6: cast Arsonist blowing up Swamp.
s t6: cannot pay for Tabernacle, Sniper dies. Bazaar is now safe so it gets played and activated, reshuffling Sniper, Swamp, and Kozilek. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t7: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 17)
s t7: draw Sniper
a t8: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 14)
s t8: draw Swamp, play Sniper
a t9: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 11)
s t9: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (2/2). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t10: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 9)
s t10: Upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t11: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 7)
s t11: draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t12: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 5)
s t12: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (1/1). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t13: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 4)
s t13: Upkeep Bazaar to reshuffle Kozilek and Sniper. Draw Kozilek for turn.
a t14: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 3)
s t14: draw Sniper, play Sniper.
a t15: use Dunes to pay for Tabernacle. attack (a:15, s: 2)
s t15: Tabernacle trigger on the stack, use Sniper to shrink Arsonist (0/0). Kozilek reshuffles while Sniper remains in the graveyard. Draw Kozilek for turn.
This line still loses for me though, so can silkster force this path to be taken? I think not because Dunes can always shrink the Sniper and if I don't play Tabernacle, Sniper stays as an 0/1. The only way silkster can change that is to play Bazaar, and any line with Bazaar in play for me to blow up is a win for me. It remains a draw.
Why is bazaar of bagdad legal? It's banned in legacy...
(Just asking. It's not that good anyway).
Ancestral Recall is also legal. It's because it's crap in 4CB, so we never bothered to ban it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert
Legacy is all cards are legal, and legal up to 4 copies per deck, except for cards that break the format, which are completely banned.
Vintage, on the other hand, is all cards are legal, and cards that break the format are restricted to one copy per deck.
So I think we're doing what we're supposed to be doing. :wink:
I wish it were illegal (and I did double check because it's banned in normal Legacy). My two backup decks would have done much better! I hope I get a chance to play them at a future date.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tylert