[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

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Originally Posted by Pelikanudo

Apart, Bahamut, please could you share your last TES list, thanks

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I never test anymore, but I can tell you what I would run now.
13 land with 2 Sea 2 Volcanic 9 Fetch (I tried basics a long time ago and didn't like them at all)
7 discard (probably 4 Duress 3 Therapy)
4 Wish (used to run 3 but with Dark Petition I think I'd go up to 4)

SB:
1 Tropical
3 Decay
3 Swarm
1 ToA
1 EtW
1 PiF
1 DP
1 Void Snare
1 Massacre
1 Thoughtsize
1 Chain of Vapor

Again, I don't test at all. I just play the occasional tournament. My experience from playing Legacy for years in the Netherlands (and sometimes elsewhere) is that you can meet basically anything in any given tournament. I don't like doing things like adding a 14th land because of a theoretical shift in the meta knowing I might very well be paired against Dredge or Belcher more than against tempo decks.

@Bryant Are you still testing with the same land base you streamed the other day (basic island, badlands etc)? I'm curious to hear your opinions, as seeing that configuration made me want to pick up TES again.

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Originally Posted by Dr_D

@Bryant Are you still testing with the same land base you streamed the other day (basic island, badlands etc)? I'm curious to hear your opinions, as seeing that configuration made me want to pick up TES again.

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I am not. I'm using the list on the homepage of the site. The island causes awkward hands with this deck since you need BR on turn 2 and Island doesn't help achieve this, not to mention it's pretty bad in post-board games considering how often this deck sides out Ponder. That manabase was something someone recommended to me, I think it's important to try things out to figure out proper configurations even if you dislike the idea.

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My experience from playing Legacy for years in the Netherlands (and sometimes elsewhere) is that you can meet basically anything in any given tournament.

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This is why my sideboard will always have maximum silver bullets.

BUT, I'm not going to come on here and try and tell any of you that it is the better idea... because it isn't. It's just better for me.

I used to play Modern Storm, so I have some experience with playing storm. I've been playing legacy for a few months now (RIP Grixis Delver).

Looking over the differences between ANT and TES (and reading the TES article), the only conclusion I've found is that TES is the more difficult of the two to pilot properly. Is that really the case, or is TES manageable without having my head explode?

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

I used to play Modern Storm, so I have some experience with playing storm. I've been playing legacy for a few months now (RIP Grixis Delver).

Looking over the differences between ANT and TES (and reading the TES article), the only conclusion I've found is that TES is the more difficult of the two to pilot properly. Is that really the case, or is TES manageable without having my head explode?

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You should've taken away a lot more than that.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

You should've taken away a lot more than that.

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Yes, I did. I read your article.

Yes, they play differently, have different fundamental turns, etc. The real question I posed was; is TES that much harder to pilot than ANT?

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

Yes, I did. I read your article.

Yes, they play differently, have different fundamental turns, etc. The real question I posed was; is TES that much harder to pilot than ANT?

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It can be, depends on your skill level. Just try them on cockatrice.

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

Yes, I did. I read your article.

Yes, they play differently, have different fundamental turns, etc. The real question I posed was; is TES that much harder to pilot than ANT?

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I would put it in a different way: TES has a lot more angles to win/combo than ANT (which is basically natural spellchains and PIF loop only) and that is causing problems and losses for many TES pilots, as its often far from obvious towards which trait you have to work with a certain starting hand against a certain deck. Misjudging the situation and "forcing" certain playlines (like AN against tempo; T1 cantripping; EtW vs. SFM; etc.) will lead to eviable defeats pretty often (which a lot of players do not recognize because they didn't see alternatives in the first place), as the deck with its shaky manabase and low powered acceleration, is less forgiving than ANT

Your starting hand, draws and your opponents moves dictate when/how to combo/win, not you. It takes a long time to immediately see the difference between having to go for the burst combo or better grind it out; between using an engine or spellchain; between going for AN or EtW.

I think a less-experienced view of the difference between these two decks will be more illustrative. I have a more simple-minded view, purely from a tester's standpoint.

TES uses Empty the Warrens, and you can get this turn 1 when you want it most of the time. You have options to play a slower game if you want, but if you feel like "Belcher plus options" is a reasonable plan, this can work well.

ANT plans to use discard spells into Past In Flames, fetching basic lands and using cantrip spells along the way.

There is also huge overlap between the decks, which is a strength of each of them.

Caleb Scherer​'s first article for theepicstorm.com:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/from-ant-to-tes/

TES made top 8 today: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92665

Weirdish list.

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

TES made top 8 today: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92665

Weirdish list.

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A Premier IQ is a 5K, right? -1 Burning Wish +1 Preordain is kind of interesting. I wonder what the reasoning for playing two Swamps was, though.

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

A Premier IQ is a 5K, right? -1 Burning Wish +1 Preordain is kind of interesting. I wonder what the reasoning for playing two Swamps was, though.

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I think it's a typo. 61 card-list seems like there went something wrong.:confused:

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Originally Posted by thefringthing

A Premier IQ is a 5K, right? -1 Burning Wish +1 Preordain is kind of interesting. I wonder what the reasoning for playing two Swamps was, though.

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Its the typo which made the deck 61 cards. It should be 1 swamp only. Preordain in place of Wish isn't reasonable as you want business asap and hitting wish off AN every fucking time, so playing only 3 is nonsense, especially if you Wish->Petition->AN

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Originally Posted by Bryant Cook

TES made top 8 today: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=92665

Weirdish list.

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Hey guys,

I'm the guy who played tes to this top 8. I was only running one swamp, not two. The reason for the preordained was because I don't have a 4th judge foil burning wish. Couldn't bring myself to play not matching wishes! Though I have since ordered the 4th. It's 100% correct to play all 4.

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Originally Posted by Jordon-mtg

Hey guys,

I'm the guy who played tes to this top 8. I was only running one swamp, not two. The reason for the preordained was because I don't have a 4th judge foil burning wish. Couldn't bring myself to play not matching wishes! Though I have since ordered the 4th. It's 100% correct to play all 4.

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Thanks for dropping in Jordon! Congratulations!

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Originally Posted by Jordon-mtg

Hey guys,

I'm the guy who played tes to this top 8. I was only running one swamp, not two. The reason for the preordained was because I don't have a 4th judge foil burning wish. Couldn't bring myself to play not matching wishes! Though I have since ordered the 4th. It's 100% correct to play all 4.

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Storm players make me want to face-palm and smile at the same time hahahaha.

Hey everyone,

Going to be revisiting TES because SCGNJ is coming up and I need something fun to play :) I'm going to be playing a lot more to learn the matchups (had 0 test matches last time and only managed a 5-4 finish), but I had some questions about a few in particular:

My losses that tournament were to Merfolk, 2 Grixis Pyromancer, and Imperial Painter.

How do we feel about Imperial Painter? I have a tough time going off against them if they land a quick Blood Moon. All of the cantrips and void snare turn off and if they land a Painter we have to worry about countermagic. Should I be aggressively mulliganing to get a hand with a lot of natural combo pieces? Is a small Empty on turn 1 or 2 enough to kill them, or can they stabilize? Sideboarding advice?

For Merfolk, it seems pretty tough to beat a clock plus chalice of the void, free countermagic, and arcane laboratory out of the board. I'm guessing this deck is just a pretty poor matchup.

The two grixis games were extremely close, both going to 3 games and I made a few sequencing errors due to inexperience. I can see myself winning those, the other two not so much.

Thanks again for your help guys, I'll try to keep in touch and post my progress here.

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Originally Posted by SeoHyun

Hey everyone,

Going to be revisiting TES because SCGNJ is coming up and I need something fun to play :) I'm going to be playing a lot more to learn the matchups (had 0 test matches last time and only managed a 5-4 finish), but I had some questions about a few in particular:

My losses that tournament were to Merfolk, 2 Grixis Pyromancer, and Imperial Painter.

How do we feel about Imperial Painter? I have a tough time going off against them if they land a quick Blood Moon. All of the cantrips and void snare turn off and if they land a Painter we have to worry about countermagic. Should I be aggressively mulliganing to get a hand with a lot of natural combo pieces? Is a small Empty on turn 1 or 2 enough to kill them, or can they stabilize? Sideboarding advice?

For Merfolk, it seems pretty tough to beat a clock plus chalice of the void, free countermagic, and arcane laboratory out of the board. I'm guessing this deck is just a pretty poor matchup.

The two grixis games were extremely close, both going to 3 games and I made a few sequencing errors due to inexperience. I can see myself winning those, the other two not so much.

Thanks again for your help guys, I'll try to keep in touch and post my progress here.

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Its quite late to practice this deck so close to SCGNJ, so I wouldn't get my hopes high. Bloodmoon isn't your problem at all as you need red mana anyways and you can secure black mana with Swamp, Petals and Moxen. Losing against Bloodmoon is a matter of bad hands/keeps/decisions and Painter is a classic deck for the belcher.dec mode of TES.

Fish isn't much of an issue either. Decay removes all permanents and Xantids block all counterspells without them having a method to remove the bug.

This is my current SB:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Its quite late to practice this deck so close to SCGNJ, so I wouldn't get my hopes high. Bloodmoon isn't your problem at all as you need red mana anyways and you can secure black mana with Swamp, Petals and Moxen. Losing against Bloodmoon is a matter of bad hands/keeps/decisions and Painter is a classic deck for the belcher.dec mode of TES.

Fish isn't much of an issue either. Decay removes all permanents and Xantids block all counterspells without them having a method to remove the bug.

This is my current SB:

4 Abrupt Decay
2 Xantid Swarm
2 Chain of Vapor
1 Past in Flames
3 Empty the Warrens
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Massacre
1 Dark Petition

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Don't get my hopes high about what? Winning? That was never my goal.

Thank you for the help. I have a feeling that I'm "going too deep" to analyze what is simply a fundamental problem with my play. I will make sure to test these matchups to make sure I'm keeping appropriate hands with the correct tools to fight each one's obstacles. I'm guessing that the three sideboarded Empties is what contributes to your "Belcher" plan. If you have one naturally it makes your hands much more explosive and easier to get your opponent to wait to counter a tutor that never comes until it's too late for them to counter the Empty. I will keep this in mind.

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Originally Posted by SeoHyun

Don't get my hopes high about what? Winning? That was never my goal.

Thank you for the help. I have a feeling that I'm "going too deep" to analyze what is simply a fundamental problem with my play. I will make sure to test these matchups to make sure I'm keeping appropriate hands with the correct tools to fight each one's obstacles. I'm guessing that the three sideboarded Empties is what contributes to your "Belcher" plan. If you have one naturally it makes your hands much more explosive and easier to get your opponent to wait to counter a tutor that never comes until it's too late for them to counter the Empty. I will keep this in mind.

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"win for 4 mana instead of 6" makes the deck even faster which is relevant vs D&T and Co. as well. It is also an addition to the Miracles Matchup to pressure them with quick, low-investment EtWs for 4-6 Goblins to stress their reduced removal postboard. If they clear the board somehow, rinse and repeat while Decay keeps Counterbalance off the table

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

"win for 4 mana instead of 6" makes the deck even faster which is relevant vs D&T and Co. as well. It is also an addition to the Miracles Matchup to pressure them with quick, low-investment EtWs for 4-6 Goblins to stress their reduced removal postboard. If they clear the board somehow, rinse and repeat while Decay keeps Counterbalance off the table

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So how do you board against Miracles and DnT?

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Originally Posted by Dr_D

So how do you board against Miracles and DnT?

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I'm sure there are better solutions, but i'm testing with:

D&T: -2 Duress, -2 Ponder, +2 Chain, +2 EtW
Miracles: -4 Ponder, -2 Mox, +4 Decay, +2 EtW

Xantid Swarm seems like a really dubious choice if you're not even bothering to board it in vs Miracles?

By the moment my try vs miracles is full A.D. plus the Single Autums veil and single Xantid which It is okish... Maybe I go back to the Doomsday + Emrakul plan vs this Archetype at some point...
Regarding that Lemnears Strategy, doesn't seem bad to just increase the number of E.T. to 3 in M.D. I still have not tested this and really want to test.
What I find redundant is also siding in the 4 A.D., as the purpose of EtW is exactly this - avoid C.B. as no matter how many C.B. there are in play - you'll be able to at least resolve 1 EtW, that's why maybe it is worth to just play Flusterstorm instead of more redundant A.D. --> uniquely for Terminus which also avoids C.B.! Fluster is also good vs S&T and reanimator however again we are in trouble if we would want to protect our combo via LED... I know the idea behind is to have odds to combo once C.B. is resolved even if the Gobs are destroyed. well these are just ideas...

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

Xantid Swarm seems like a really dubious choice if you're not even bothering to board it in vs Miracles?

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Its not in the sideboard for this matchup in the first place. It was fine to bring in if you have nothing else, but it doesn't win you the game against Counterbalance or Clique like ever, which is the reason I will no longer board them. They are in the sideboard for Reanimator/Meerfolk/SneakShow/etc. which I expect to return

Played in a local turney today, went 4 0. This deck is a blast to play and much better in the new no-dig meta.

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

Its not in the sideboard for this matchup in the first place. It was fine to bring in if you have nothing else, but it doesn't win you the game against Counterbalance or Clique like ever, which is the reason I will no longer board them. They are in the sideboard for Reanimator/Meerfolk/SneakShow/etc. which I expect to return

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I don't think a SB card dedicated to just those match ups is worth the SB space, the card gets narrower in application by the day.

On the issue ANT vs TES, what I really like is the diversity of ways to actually win the game. In many cases ANT depends on the grave and there dependency on ToA needs them to get a to a higher storm count, which is harder with grave hate.
Just a quick question: What is meant by the belcher.dec mode of the deck? I am familiar with the deck idea of belcher, but it didnt come to my mind what exactly the similarities can be in terms of a game plan.

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Originally Posted by OliverFist

On the issue ANT vs TES, what I really like is the diversity of ways to actually win the game. In many cases ANT depends on the grave and there dependency on ToA needs them to get a to a higher storm count, which is harder with grave hate.
Just a quick question: What is meant by the belcher.dec mode of the deck? I am familiar with the deck idea of belcher, but it didnt come to my mind what exactly the similarities can be in terms of a game plan.

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The diversity of ways is a problem itself for many players as they often miss winning lines and the same is true if you look at ANT and think the deck has serious problems winning vs yard-hate in general. Both deck can simply execute pretty cheap cantrip/Artifact playlines for lethal natural Tendrils which is a trait which is especially underused by TES players as most only look at EtW or AN to win and usually forget cantrip-chains, DP-chain or PIF as options. ANT has zero problems to win w/o Cabal Rituals +3 boost or PIF. They just fire cantrips, discard, Ritual, LED, IT, ToA and win. Engines are overrated.

The Belcher-Mode of TES is simply the plan to win asap by keeping hands accordingly and building a reckless hand. It dismisses to work around Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/FoW/etc. or looking for discard with the simple goal to combo asap. It's describing the plan to YOLO with quick, risky comboturns

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The diversity of ways is a problem itself for many players as they often miss winning lines and the same is true if you look at ANT and think the deck has serious problems winning vs yard-hate in general. Both deck can simply execute pretty cheap cantrip/Artifact playlines for lethal natural Tendrils which is a trait which is especially underused by TES players as most only look at EtW or AN to win and usually forget cantrip-chains, DP-chain or PIF as options. ANT has zero problems to win w/o Cabal Rituals +3 boost or PIF. They just fire cantrips, discard, Ritual, LED, IT, ToA and win. Engines are overrated.

The Belcher-Mode of TES is simply the plan to win asap by keeping hands accordingly and building a reckless hand. It dismisses to work around Wasteland/Daze/Pierce/FoW/etc. or looking for discard with the simple goal to combo asap. It's describing the plan to YOLO with quick, risky comboturns

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Thanks for the explanation, I find myself rarely make use of the DP thereby you are obviously right. I am still in the beginnings of learning how to play the deck. What would you say were the biggest learning processes you made when playing TES?

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Originally Posted by Final Fortune

I don't think a SB card dedicated to just those match ups is worth the SB space, the card gets narrower in application by the day.

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It's not that these matchups are all. You can board it versus 12-Post, Infect and even more. I'm still open for suggestions.

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Originally Posted by OliverFist

Thanks for the explanation, I find myself rarely make use of the DP thereby you are obviously right. I am still in the beginnings of learning how to play the deck. What would you say were the biggest learning processes you made when playing TES?

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I give you two:

To chill out. This deck has the potential to be damn fast, but a lot of matchups don't require you to win T1 or T2 so don't Force speed and certain playlines.

Cantrip only to find the ONE missing card. Don't expect that a cantrip fixes a shitty keep which lacks mana AND a Tutor. If that's the case, see my first advice and chill out. Once you draw into one of the missing pieces, you know what to look for with your cantrips.

So yeah, I tested the deck on the weekend against human opponents the first time. I played against a modern grixis delver and against miracles.

Grixis actually rekt me. I had many problems with the big amount of counter spells and hand disruption. I assume that I went into the combo too fast, although I knew there could be some kind of counters in his hand. 4 spell snare actually did some huge work against me. Patience is really a thing I have to get used to. With what I am really struggling concerning this is that I am afraid the amount of counterspells they will draw into is bigger than the amount of disruption I will draw. Is it a better tactic to spare the discard spells until I can use them all at once in one turn, so that therapy potentially hits more cards? Or should I disrupt constantly, that was really hard for me to decide... I am not sure what is the better tactic.

Against miracles I actually managed to go off twice, after I cast a 16 storm count EtW he topdecked Terminus. In the second game the same happened. It was not possible for me to cast ToA to kill him right away because black mana was missing or the storm count was too low. Against miracles my tactics was to try to go into the combo faster, because it probably is harder in the late game and they have more answers to threats.

...its a long way to the top...:laugh:

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Originally Posted by OliverFist

So yeah, I tested the deck on the weekend against human opponents the first time. I played against a modern grixis delver and against miracles.

Grixis actually rekt me. I had many problems with the big amount of counter spells and hand disruption. I assume that I went into the combo too fast, although I knew there could be some kind of counters in his hand. 4 spell snare actually did some huge work against me. Patience is really a thing I have to get used to. With what I am really struggling concerning this is that I am afraid the amount of counterspells they will draw into is bigger than the amount of disruption I will draw. Is it a better tactic to spare the discard spells until I can use them all at once in one turn, so that therapy potentially hits more cards? Or should I disrupt constantly, that was really hard for me to decide... I am not sure what is the better tactic.

Against miracles I actually managed to go off twice, after I cast a 16 storm count EtW he topdecked Terminus. In the second game the same happened. It was not possible for me to cast ToA to kill him right away because black mana was missing or the storm count was too low. Against miracles my tactics was to try to go into the combo faster, because it probably is harder in the late game and they have more answers to threats.

...its a long way to the top...:laugh:

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Unless you play against combo (or desasterous turn 2 drops a la Thalia), your discard has to be cast close to or in your combo turn. You don't care for their FoW in their starting grip if you can not combo before turn 4 anyways for example. There is also no need to cantrip into Rituals/Tutor early against discard as your hand fills with mana and business all by itself. Let them cast their Thoughtseize and shit against your cantrips rather than your tutors.

In Lille I resolved a T5 AN against T1 Thoughtseize, T2 Hymn, T3 Hymn just by making landdrops and doing nothing until I had enough mana on board and a business spell topdecked

11th at EE3. Report to follow.

My report from this weekend: http://www.theepicstorm.com/storming...10242015-11th/

Had a bleh showing with TES at SCG St. Louis - cracked "day 2" but then turned into a potato and punted away the day to miss cashing (80/464). Largest legacy event I've ever played (something like a 5-6rounder local before that) so inexperience with playing TES over a longer haul definitely a factor plus I still consider myself new to the deck anyhow. Apologies to any opponents where I may have tanked a little long or taken longer lines than needed.
Regardless, goblins were made (130 by my count) and many tendrils stormed off. Wrestled with it a bit but settled on Bryant's 75 and it certainly felt like the right list for the weekend (the list in his above EE3 report for as the list evolves).

Great report, as always. Shame you didn't make top8, but yeah. That one bad matchup plus that one time the deck cheats on you are usually enough to knock you out already.


I've considered playing Surgicals to improve the Storm/Dredge/Reanimator matchups before, but I could never really find the room for them. Between the wish board, and both of the green spells which I feel are needed, I don't know what to cut. I do agree that the singleton discard spell and the 3rd Xantid are probably the only cards that are expendable. In my local meta, decks that I want Xantid against are on a decline, so I can get away playing only 2 of them for now. Though you obviously needed Xantids a lot there, so 2 may be too few.

I'm personally still playing 7 discard spells and for me it's always been the correct number. It's worth mentioning that extra discard also helps in the aforementioned combo matchups that we struggle against sometimes. That said, I only play 1 Mox (plus 14 lands), so I have one more slot for that 7th discard spell in my main. In a list with only 6 discard main, though, I'd hesitate even more cutting the discard spell from the sidebard.